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definitely feel a lot better and clearminded now.

yesterday was extremely scary, it'd been a while since I could sense myself feeling so small and under a scope. going through an interview for a job that i don't have too many experience in already felt off. there were moments of questioning where it was like my dad telling me "no you can't be an artist, you have to be good to be an artist" or them not supporting my interest in studying art. like a "who do you think you are?" but with this interview it was a "Who are you? What can you do for us?" and I felt so miserable scrambling to answer and defend myself and skills and working so hard to not be misunderstood.

the role was not fully what I expected and I wish I had questioned my friend more before the interview. it turned out to be some recruitment stuff and not actually office assistant role, and hearing the manager explain why they labeled it that way put me off. And put my T and zinnia off too when i told them.

something about having some clarity and distance from the interview makes me want to just reject it. I think I might if they offer it to me.

I could feel little one feeling like the world was falling apart and on fire and couldn't find an adult to help guide her out. that was the ef. even with hand soothing and self reassurance it was like she was screaming over me and couldn't hear it or believe it. maybe 17 too. i couldn't find myself at all, just walking through the apartment like a ghost wrought with grief and anxiety.

did a peaceful imagery meditation w T and that calmed me down a little. i was able to get to solid thinking about 45 min through the session and i felt like myself again, leadership-thinking for the little ones.

i don't want to feel like im overshooting or doubting myself again, but i think because the role and title was misleading, (as well as the company I'd work for which is the recruiting side and not the app developing side) i'm going to apply to traditional office associate roles. I'm going to still give myself more time to reflect and think about how if that was my reaction to questioning for combatability (and NOT self worth), then it might be a little over my head right now. and will be a good idea to work in an environment that is more straightforward. everyone was nice and respectful but it didn't change how much the manager reminded me of my dad. stoic yet "playful" and prodding to see the truth. but i don't know his story.

I think... if the role is offered, I will ask for 24 hours to decide, and then decline. I may tell my friend that I appreciate her letting me know about the role, but moving forward she doesn't need to reach out about her company and open positions anymore.

again somehow things will be OK. at least I still have the cashier job.

With some distance and reflection, I see now that those situations were off putting to me for different reasons and I'm not sure they would have been the right place for me.  I, of course, blamed myself instead of people that were really not managing their own stuff when they interviewed me.

rainy and kizzie i've since talked to my T and friends more and also came to that realization too. the questioning reminded me of the gaslighting (and embarrassment/shame) my dad did to me when it came to trying something new, like I wasn't good enough. I realized the manager asked justifiable questions for him and his company's benefit. I could sense the trigger was going to happen but it didn't come out until after the interview too.

Job interviews were something that triggered me deeply too Tea. For me it was the feeling of being judged and found wanting.  It was also feeling the imposter syndrome, like I didn't have any real skills and knowledge, I was just faking it. We know where all that comes from. It was instilled in us by our parents/abusers so we were kept compliant and feeling inferior.

We're not those things though Tea and having followed your posts I know that's true of you. You may be ready for new challenges and just have to put those voices where they belong - in the garbage. Or you made need some time to prepare with the help of your T and maybe even a professional.  My son did that for medical school and it was an enormous help. 

Whatever happens Tea, please be kind to yourself.  We do not need to feel shame because of our reactions to stress, but we do and that's something we need to unlearn.   

thank you both seriously for your support. imposter syndrome and past gaslighting really put me in an intense ef. going to look to my therapist for more ef work to continue working on closing the gap between trigger-ef-calm down. i'm unsure I feel about the interview but the reaction made me feel like that might not be the place to go right now.

feeling lots better and clearer today phew

holy moley - 4 hrs.!  that tired me out just reading it!  i think it's great how you were able to determine what was going on with your body and what had been lacking.  keep up the good work, ok?

thank you san i think it's one of the more apparent self care skills i've been able to hone in the last two years of therapy. was always so hard to pay attention or even notice my body, realize that i'm hungry or tired. no more wondering why i feel like garbage, unaware that I hadn't eaten since two meals ago

Those are important and profound insights. A child handling all that really is too much. Your little ones are very deserving of kindness and care.

no, tea, you're not alone in those kinds of experiences.  basically, they suck.  so glad you're making progress out of all that.  it's overwhelming for a child to have to manage all those nuances, tones, checking in to see if what you said landed right, etc.  sending love and a hug filled with support

also thank you both for seeing little one and the burdens that had to be carried to survive. It's still scary now, to pick those burdens up from ICs bc I'm afraid of failing them. i know t reminds me that it's ok and what's important for them to see is that I'm showing up, unlike my parents.

I really resonated with the whole having to police my own tone thing. Even if I thought I was trying to be funny, anything that could be interpreted as complaining or defiance would be met with unpleasant consequences, to say the least. I'm sorry you had to experience that, but you're not alone. 

yeah cactus! so many instances where I crack a joke to test the waters of potential aggression. thank you for seeing little tea too.

i don't know if this goes here i'm in ef right now so i'm to just sum up the texts i sent my t and friend


feeling really triggered, thought this job would be good but it seemed different and more than what i thought. the manager questioned my capability to manage this new work and illustrating and i felt so incoherent and scrambling and incompetent even though i keep being told i'm good enough for this role by my friend who's trying to recruit me for it and other friends. his questions reminded me of my dad doubting my potential as an artist and doubting my potential success.

i feel like it would be bad both ways, if i get the job i will immediately prove i'm not good enough and faking my confidence, and if i don't it'll prove that i was never good enough and i should have just stayed in these part time guest service roles.

my t just texted we could meet tonight so i'm going to do that but i feel so * embarrassed and it's not that i know i shouldn't, I just feel the shame from trying to prove that I can do more new or challenging things even though that still scares me

been working with (not fighting) the obligation brain about coming back to reply here after what feels like a hefty handful of days. I forget that sometimes my abandonment fears come from not being acknowledged or being acknowledged On A Condition, and so being acknowledged without any expectation feels so strange. and feels tiring to remind myself I don't need to respond any particular way.

I think the reflecting and more recently some codependency survival thoughts has worn me out. and is affecting my sleep, among other non-trauma things.

a few days ago I recorded some videos online about being frustrated with some people's confusion of codependency and interdependence. then pansy reached out to tell me I was NOT codependent with anyone (in response to "I still suffer from the codependency I experienced") and so I put up another video clarifying some things and feeling good about how far I've come. Was kind of put off. There's a trigger or something behind being told what I am or what I'm experiencing by someone else. Of course the gaslighting from dad. I know her comment was meant in support, but I took it differently. Feeling antisocial about that.

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Last night I could feel an inner protector part, older (seeming) overpreparing me for an interview on Friday. Just racing thoughts and self-conversations. Awake from 2:30 to 4:15am I had to play a game for almost 2 hours to wear myself out. Tried to tell the part thanks for the help, but it doesn't have to work so hard anymore. I know they were helpful years ago when confronting new situations but I'm working more to go with the flow and be flexible. I know that's scary for this inner part.
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New job orientation today went for 4 hours and wiped me out nearly. I felt pretty confident in my capabilities. I felt like the oldest or second oldest there, especially having worked guest services since 2015. But I'm hoping another opportunity is successful. I'm nervous about having to function early in the morning again. I was so tired...I know sleep has been pretty poor lately, though. I do think once all this is over and all the dust has settled my sleep will go back to normal. In the meantime I'll keep unclenching my jaw and soothing anxious inner parts who need to talk at midnight.
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Therapy cancelled again. I told T we could just meet next week instead of rescheduling for tomorrow or Friday when I'm going to be busy. I was going to explain, but I held back. I know my urge to explain myself goes deep, but after texting Pansy this weekend I felt OK just telling T that we can just push the session back without going into details. They're not feeling well, and so it can't be helped.

OH I realized just now why I feel like terrible.. ran out of oatmeal so I didn't have any energy going into a 4 hour long powerpoint (with ONE break that was 5 minutes) other than some toast and hot choco. PLUS no hydration since downstairs neighbor's sink was getting backed up and I couldn't run water since last night and I forgot to refill my water pitcher........... I think I'm going to lay down for the rest of the night. I'll reply to things tomorrow.

boatsailrose you are absolutely sane! just reading your words, your reflection on the efforts you've put into the friendship while working on yourself to grow... and of course the excitement you feel from letting go. something to be very proud of

welcome chrissy! thank you for sharing with us, I hope you'll find safety and solace on the forum here in the members and resources glad to have you here!

bach thank you for understanding. that really is hard. safe creative expression has so easily been taken away from us at young ages that it makes sense why our inner parts tell us it's too scary to go back to try. play time is so important especially in the very tiring world we live in. if you have an inner part, i hope they can sense the hope I have for them and for you to try establishing safe grounds for play, no matter what it is. i happened to luck out with pansy who bought me my first watercolor set when we met in college.

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the last self gaslighting prompt

1. What would happen if I said no or disagreed when I was growing up?

It was big trouble. Especially if i didn't mind my tone which I still find confusing and difficult to do. If it was with dad, I would be asking for an hours long lecture about how I'm disrespectful, don't know anything. How my brain isn't fully cooked. This just didnt happen very often because simply having opinions of my own was dangerous so I avoided it as much as I could.

If it was with mom, well we agreed typically. I think we tried hard not to have conflict and it worked well enough. She was easier of course to say no to. But I would often say no as a joke and do what she'd ask. Unfortunately I'm trying so hard but have no memories of us having disagreeing much.

With bro, I did everything in my power to agree with, even more than with dad. We never clashed until I was in college and becoming aware of our family dynamics and my own trauma. Any disagreements I just remember as being childlike, like which cartoon character was cooler.


2. What would happen if I needed help from my parents about how to feel or think about something?

This was incredibly rare. As a passive caretaker it was really important to not be a burden so I can only think of the time I asked dad about dating (when I already was secretly) and it became a lecture of something I again can't remember the content of. I don't remember it being helpful. It felt empty, no curious questions directed at me (like "Oh is there someone you like?"). Just a "don't go out here getting yourself in trouble." I forgot that's a classic dad line.

Mom was not really helpful either. Her response was to go to dad which was very unhelpful and discouraging.

This was not ever a conversation with bro. The less I could burden him by asking for anything of my already suffering brother the better I felt.

This really speaks volumes considering how well I can carry a conversation today. Let alone lead. Lots of gaps.


3. What would happen if I brought up or wanted to bring up something that I didn't feel was right to me or wasn't right for me?

I think the best I can recall is telling my mom I wanted to do my own hair. She was fine with that. I think sometimes she would baby me but with her it was easier to convince her I could do something on my own or didn't need watching over.

Never did this as a child with dad or bro, until I was an adult in college. Both cases I felt high anxiety, like I was going to come with them with the worst imaginable news. Like someone was punching my stomach and the only way to stop it was to go back on what I wanted to say and not do it at all. Shaky and terrified. Definitely felt shame, "I'm bad for rocking the boat" or "I'm always causing problems when I can just let it go again and not deal with it." But that was adulthood. I really don't think I did this as a child.

As a kid I don't think I knew it was possible to have an issue with someone or thing and be valid to question it. Like had probably no awareness of it at all.


4. What would happen when I tried for something new?

Well there's the attempt to major in art in college and I backed down when dad told me they would not support me if I failed. If I tried something new like different clothes or hair styles, dad would question my choice. Controlling my brain to thinking that I made an error that of course he'd pick up on, controlling me to believe that all choices that I make on my own are bad and wrong. Other than an adult attempt to study Russian my freshman year of college (quickly got that changed after an almost hysterical lecture), I really never tried new things. It wasn't safe.

They taught me such a strange form of perfectionism mixed with not trying or not following through due to not being good enough. Mixed with not really hounding me about my grades if they were A's and B's with the semi-acceptable C in math and science because at least they knew I spent time after school trying to get help. All resulting in constantly feeling mediocre. Any attempts for something new would mean disappointment and failure. And those things mean that I should not have made the decision on my own to try. It's still a wonder to me how the worst people obtain jobs that my friends or T would see me excel in but I find myself struggling to imagine being any good at.

Nothing I've done they've encouraged or told me I was doing a good job at. Even in the years before leaving, while teaching myself watercolors, they had no interest.



So..
fears about disrupting the peace, fears about not being good enough or acceptable. Fears about failing. About being wrong, about not knowing anything, or not knowing enough to try. Fears about being a burden or feeling too much.

It's not news to me but it is something to think about with my inner children. It's hard to think about but they really have done everything and beyond to keep me alive and safe growing up.

The amount of energy it must have taken to get through a single conversation with dad, self managing tones and eye contact and my hands. The amount of energy to keep the peace between a suffering brother and a ballistic father and an sympathetic unphased enabling mother, while doing everything in her power to be likable, be the one everyone can take a break to look at to be entertained or put at ease. The amount of energy and brainpower it took to learn to navigate all of these things while learning what everyone's triggers are, learning everything about body language before I knew what body language was, knowing what the sounds of dad's footsteps were, hearing his keys jingling as signal of soon safety when he'd leave for work. The car door shutting outside that my brother and I would rush to check if it was "them" as if we were doing anything that we'd be caught in.

I know there's more and more. One child handling all of that while having no real clue if the people she worked so hard to please and keep at peace even loved her. That's just too much I wish I could scoop her out of that place. All of the little ones with me now, it really is so important to be kind and patient.

got the courage to text pansy if we could facetime next weekend and it's fine of course it is. i think i get where I was coming from last weekend where "I'm glad I went with it anyway despite the initial dread" because that dread is anxiety building from needing to perform for my friend. understandable. Getting around that requires practice in remembering that pansy is safe and understanding. So of course I see in the end that things are fine, that she is safe and understanding, doesn't expect me to say this or that.

On the flip side is testing the "conflict" or the "problem" with people who are safe when it comes to positive or fun things. My fawn self being anxious about not wanting to chat because of that dread, because today I don't want to just go with it. Is a person really safe if they are only ok with the fun stuff? When they're always confirmed or always having things go as planned or assumed?

Was able to just quickly text her and got a quick response back and a "hope you're well" and I felt so.... PHEW

I feel like I am putting down the same weight that I was carrying when I told my friends I was staying in the city. The same anxiety of disappointing others out of fear of abandonment and anger (which is deeply connected to abandonment and shame for me).

that feels good. I think later I will continue the Patrick Teahan journal prompts if I can muster it.

bach I definitely still feel what you mean about not being good enough I think there was a part of me that wanted to keep doing it because I wanted to and didn't care to stop. as is probably normal for fawn/freeze types I daydreamed very heavily as escapism was key to my survival. art happened to be an easy way to escape and just stay in my room and draw. and if i stopped or ever thought about stopping, that would be frightening and dangerous. the escapism would end.

i hear folks a lot of times say they feel a huge resistance to picking up drawing again and I support you and any inner kiddos who want to try!  drawing my inner kids is really emotional and something I only started a year ago shortly before making a very difficult decision that disappointed my friends (and thus triggered probably all of my inner kiddos). i think because of excessive daydreaming I'm able to easily visualize them and thus draw them. one of the particularly comes out when I'm painting without expectations of achieving good or skilled work. just play time maybe that could be a source of encouragement?

Just finished watching Patrick Teahan's video on self gaslighting and it seriously resonates. It even took me a while to just start and stick with the video. kinda wanna do the prompts here.

3 examples how your perception got betrayed by being gaslit as a kid

1. I remember going to dad at 17 before applying to colleges and telling them I wanted to go to school for art. It became this huge issue, huge lecture about how apparently I wanted to walk around with holes in my pants and carrying those big portfolios of art. It was really bizarre. He had this image of what an "artist" looked like in his brain and placed it onto me. That I would look homeless. That I would BE homeless. He told me if I failed "that's on you." And I had no way else to take that as anything other than "We will not support you in your decision" and so I of course ended up applying for journalism, what they wanted (because I write so much in my diaries... that they'd violated my privacy countless times to read). I couldn't even voice my feelings or thoughts or reactions because the skills to do that were revoked probably a decade prior.

2. Probably the first month or so of middle school I'd already become a target of a girl who thought I was catching an attitude when she called me "honey" and I repeated it back to her confused. I told mom when she was making dinner, and she said she'd talk to dad. I never heard anything from him, but she came back to me with  "Dad said not to cry." I didn't know what to make of it, just disappointed. Like nothing I said was heard, but they knew how sensitive I was, so to not be a burden on this child classmate of mine, it'd be best not to be emotional around her. I didn't ask for any more feedback.

3. "you have to be good to be an artist" Just randomly one day on the car ride to school I asked my dad if I could be an artist when I grow up. He flat out told me "no" and that I had to be good. I was only 7 or 8. I didn't know how to deal with that but I pursued it anyway, but developed huge doubts about my capabilities (and not only as an artist). I never tried for anything that I truly wanted to do, like join art clubs or take art classes in high school. Unless it was journalism related like the newspaper.


Situations where I second guess or gaslight myself in the present

1. Applying for jobs definitely. Even jobs I'm overqualified for like cashier and guest services roles, I still feel incapable somehow somewhere. But especially jobs that don't require much prior skill that are in fields I've never been or it's been a while in like office roles. "Because I'm not good at it right this moment, I shouldn't apply for this role." Done this so many times my friend and my T are baffled at how much I short sell myself.

2. There was actually a time where I thought it would be helpful if I stopped saying yes all the time when my friends wanted to go out. I remember once while we lived together they asked, and I said no. And I could feel Pansy's disappointment and I started assuming she was angry at my rejection. While they were getting ready, I sat in my room feeling so ashamed for my response. I knew why I said no, sometimes being asked out of the blue is triggering and wanted to honor what I was feeling. But I got up and put clothes on and went to Pansy and said I changed my mind. Felt miserable the whole time, completely in my head about my decision and their perception of my decision.

I know there's many other instances of self gaslighting but my memory is feeling cloudy. I'm going to take a break because there's a third part that involves more self reflection but I feel tired like I'm overworking my brain (and also the ICs brains too I bet)

welcome StartingHealing thank you for sharing a bit with us

Got to thinking about 17 and drew her sitting on the step outside my parent's house, waiting for dad to come home. I hated those days, long long before I had a cellphone. Big source of abandonment feelings. They never thought to tell me to wait on the back porch so I could at least sit on a chair. Out of the western sun. They never gave me a key to the house. So many times I'd have to sit outside plain in sight after school waiting for him to drive up and open the garage.

I was talking to Zinnia about this a while ago and she mentioned I could have been easily kidnapped. That was really MESSED UP of my parents to never think to give me a key or something to prevent that. It really was * up the more and more and more I think about it. They never let me go to a friends house, not even my friend who lived just passed our bus stop.

My parents really sucked. It's a bizarre set of negligence that seems so wild to other people, and once normal to me. Negligence and of course abusive control. What better way to have all control over the ability of your child to come and go than to make up ridiculous reasons why they can't have a key.

"Someone is always home to let you in" NOT TRUE
"You're going to lose it, you always lose things" GREAT WAY to let your kid grow into feeling like the most incapable adult
"You don't need a key. What do you even need it for?"

Gosh they're so frustrating. The more I think about them the more tired I get. They're ridiculous for saying they did the best they could when they couldn't even do the bare minimum. They really freaking sucked. I think about mom telling me she won't be told she was a bad bleeping mom and I just shake my head. Maybe not in those exact words mom. But you really sucked.


I was feeling really sad about that memory, but after drawing myself hugging 17 on the front step, I just feel different. Not quite angry but just. Something. Like.. not unbelievable. Or incredulous. But the feeling of hearing my parents say they have nothing to be regretful of or ashamed of or whatever... and just shaking my head at them thinking they are fools.

san i really really appreciate your acknowledgement and feeling seen. I tried not to look back too much but it's strange how far away that all seems even though I'm still dealing with a lot of those issues. in a different place now, with tools (and the realization that I have tools and good people in the first place) to help me though

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volunteered at the aquarium today. thinking I could take the next set of buses and trains I ended up 15 minutes late so I won't be doing that again. got up today with another big headache but I took something for it and carried on. my horticulture leader told me to check in with her before coming in, so I spent the whole day hyperfocusing on my error for not doing so but also the email I sent saying I'd be coming in and trying to remind myself nobody was annoyed or mad. just a "moving forward, can you.." short talk which I could feel Little One taking as "shame on you for not overstating that you were coming in today. I told her it's ok and not a huge deal, we'll figure it out when I start the new job

I got to spend time away from the phone and computer today like I said I would no headaches today so I'm thinking that must have been the issue. the hort lead suggested I get some blue light glasses to help, so I'll be doing that soon. she gave me a bunch of little porcelain bowls and the other lead gave me some gardening seed catalogs to take home

I wish it wasn't so far away, volunteering and getting up and going out especially after working and making art from home since september has really uplifted me and given me something tactile to do that I love! the ladies I work under are so nice..

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Therapy was ok. T is sick so the already short session today was cut to 30 minutes I wanted to talk about some lonely feelings this week but could only bring up the job and rose moving. they said we can meet again next week though, so I should keep that in mind.

I took a huge two hour nap right after. I was sleepy on the train home and I after the session, I could tell I needed to just lay down. I can't remember anything about it, as soon as I hit the pillow I was out until dark. Very thankful nobody texted me

I also cleaned all the dishes from the past two days and that felt good. A nice nudge from inner radiant to just get it done cos I wanted dinner, and bypassed a "well maybe I'll wait till later" feeling.

So today was about practicing more instinctive needs-fulfilling

hi bach! i understand how your realization about your mother affected you like that afterwards. pitying her and finding yourself able to communicate with her in a way that's healthy for you (and feeling great about that) and while also understanding the reality of her nature... oof. it's not fair thanks for sharing, it does make me a bit hopeful with my own mom