Emdr making me worse

[sanmagic7]

hey, eyes,  i do hope you, too, get some resolution for this.  it doesn't sound right.  best to you, and quickly.  big hug.  i'm just so sorry you're both going thru this.  this shouldn't be happening, to my mind and from my experience. 

[Elphanigh]

This is a long and important thread. I too am going through EMDR but the second it started to seem like it was re-traumatizing me, or making it worse my T slowed us down. We have come back to it but from my experience it shouldn't be making you worse. It is difficult, and forces a lot to be processed which has increased my symptoms some, but in my experience they shouldn't spike so entirely much that is is you getting actually worse.

I am really sorry you are both going through that.

[Eyessoblue]

Thank you for that, I am thinking the processing has been going too quickly for me, I feel completely overwhelmed by it all at the moment, I am going to speak to my therapist about it on Monday, she seems to think that I am holding on to traumas and don't actually feel safe in letting them go, maybe she's right I'm not sure but on the same hand I feel she should be finding a way for me to deal with that and not just telling that to me. She is a really lovely therapist and a good match to me so I don't want to lose faith in her but at the same time I think I need to speak up and be honest about how I feel.

[Elphanigh]

That is a great idea. Talk to her about it, and tell her exactly what you said here. I think, since you say she is good, that she will help you through it

[Kizzie]

 had two bad reactions like some have had (3 day long EFs).  I quit.  I learned some time later from a somatic experiencing T (through work versus personal therapy), that with CPTSD EMDR can tap into too much trauma all at once because we have layers of accumulated trauma versus the single or thinner layer(s) of PTSD.  As such, the T has to be quite savvy/experienced in titrating (dip toe in, take toe out), and helping the client to learn how to ground and soothe themselves.  Mine did not do either. 

I also found in my two EMDR sessions I could not find a single traumatic experience to focus on, rather it was this streaming flow of trauma (I was going to write that it was a flow of something else  ), that was unleashed and it just completely overwhelmed me.   It may be better now I don't know as it was in the first year after I fell apart that I tried it.  I am more inclined to try the somatic experiencing since talking with my colleague and recently found one in my area - just working up the nerve to go ahead and book that first appt.   

I quit but I did tell the EMDR T why and that she needed to consider that Complex PTSD is different than PTSD which she seemed to take in.  I had told them this when I went but feel they may have pooh-poohed me (as I find happens fairly often with professionals unfortunately), and carried on regardless. Hopefully she and her colleagues have taken some additional training since then. I have recently seen courses for EMDR practitioners specifically about CPTSD in my meanderings around the Internet, so for me that seems to confirm they are becoming aware of the differences between PTSD and Complex PTSD and that it requires adjusting their approach.

[Elphanigh]

Kizzie that is a great thing to remember.  I think I am lucky with one that can tip toe in and out. Who can help keep me grounded in one layer of my trauma. She works really hard to me not overwhelmed. It happened at first until she realize she was dealing with Cptsd. We took a step back for a month or so and grounded myself in everything. Only recently have we picked up again, and started with simpler, more recent things

[sanmagic7]

i hope you both talk to your t's, and that they will slow down, explore what's going on, take a break, do what's necessary to get you grounded and stabilized.  being overwhelmed by all this is not what trauma therapy is about.  best to you both, and i hope you have good results.

kizzie, i'm truly sorry for your neg. experience.  unfortunately, there are still too many t's who don't want to learn, and it grinds my teeth.  i belong to an emdr network, and have brought up both c-ptsd and alexithymia to them.  it was not always well received.  however, some did ask me for more details and are now more informed.  i'm glad for their clients.

i'm also glad that you are looking to do somatic processing.  i truly believe c-ptsd is best healed thru a variety of approaches and therapies.  too many layers contain too many different types of trauma.  it's too much for just one type of therapy to be all-encompassing, to my mind.

sending you a big hug filled with the courage you need to make that appt. and begin a new experience.  you have done so much for so many here, i believe you deserve to do for yourself as well.  i hope you'll keep us informed after your first session.   i'd love to hear how it goes for you.     

[Eyessoblue]

Kizzie that is a really interesting thing you say there about cptsd because according to my therapist cptsd doesn't actually exist as it's not under the dsm so to her it is just ptsd and that is it! Maybe I need to educate her a little! I know although I've been diagnosed with ptsd it is definitely cptsd that I have. This is so frustrating!

[Kizzie]

Kizzie that is a really interesting thing you say there about cptsd because according to my therapist cptsd doesn't actually exist as it's not under the dsm so to her it is just ptsd and that is it! Maybe I need to educate her a little! I know although I've been diagnosed with ptsd it is definitely cptsd that I have. This is so frustrating!

Well big news!  Complex PTSD will become official this year so      and     

"With the release of the ICD [International Classification of Diseases] (Edition) 11 by the WHO [World Health Organization] in 2017 the diagnostic nomenclature will include for the first time a diagnosis of CPTSD." 

The reference for this is a bit long but it's:

Hyland, P., Shevlin, M., Elklit, A., Murphy, J., Vallières, F., Garvert, D. W., & Cloitre, M. (2017). An assessment of the construct validity of the ICD-11 proposal for Complex Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. Psychological Trauma: Theory, Research, Practice, And Policy, doi:10.1037/tra0000114.

And if you really want to make the point to your T, there are quite a few clinical research articles she can have a look at here : http://www.outofthestorm.website/academic-articles/.  While there has been some debate about CPTSD and it is not in the AMA's current DSM, there are just as many clinicians and researchers who have considered it a valid diagnostic construct since the 90's, and have waged a research war of sorts to validate it. 

Anyway, the bottom line is that the 11th edition of the WHO ICD will make Complex PTSD "official" and that should help all of us. 

[sanmagic7]

thank you, god.  at last!  it'll be interesting to see how long the dsm takes to catch up.  after all, it is the clinician's bible.  i never even heard of your reference, kizzie.  tunnel vision - ack!!!

[Candid]

     and      indeed, Kizzie!

I like the look of this:

... We also hypothesized that the CPTSD class would report more frequent and a greater number of different types of childhood trauma as well as higher levels of functional impairment. Methods Participants in this study were a sample of individuals who were referred for psychological therapy to a National Health Service (NHS) trauma centre in Scotland (N=193). Participants completed the ICD-TQ as well as measures of life events and functioning.

RESULTS:
Overall, results indicate that using the newly developed ICD-TQ, two subgroups of treatment-seeking individuals could be empirically distinguished based on different patterns of symptom endorsement; a small group high in PTSD symptoms only and a larger group high in CPTSD symptoms. In addition, CPTSD was more strongly associated with more frequent and a greater accumulation of different types of childhood traumatic experiences and poorer functional impairment.

LIMITATIONS:
Sample predominantly consisted of people who had experienced childhood psychological trauma or been multiply traumatised in childhood and adulthood.

CONCLUSIONS:
CPTSD is highly prevalent in treatment seeking populations who have been multiply traumatised in childhood and adulthood and appropriate interventions should now be developed to aid recovery from this debilitating condition.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27723542

[/i]

Good stuff!

[Eyessoblue]

Kizzie  this is amazing news! This makes me so happy at last we are to be recognised. This is such a positive outcome for all those affected by cptsd let's hope we can all get the help we so desperately need..

[sanmagic7]

thanks, candid.  that sure is good stuff.  it's nearly unbelievable for me, but it's so validating, especially the part about the decreased levels of functioning caused by the layers of trauma.  i'm shaking my head in disbelief.  i'll be taking this to this new t i'll be seeing in 8 days.  this is incredible.  i feel like i'm in shock.

[Kizzie]

The Hyland article is from 2017 San, fresh off the press so to speak so you probably wouldn't have seen it.  (Same for the article Candid referenced - 2017.) I just go fishing every once in a while to see what's new and there it was.  Needless to say I was really quite excited to read it.  In the back of my head I could hear myself saying, "Well 3850 mbrs of OOTS could have told you this" but I know these kinds of issues must be based on empirical data evidence. 

If you have a look at the other articles you can see there has been quite the battle raging over validating Complex PTSD as a valid diagnostic construct - Resick and crew being the naysayers.  I have no idea if/when it will be accepted in the APA's DSM  but that it is in the ICD is certainly (hopefully) a huge step forward given it's international in scope. 

Just to take things sideways for a  moment - I'm not overly confident about the DSM's credibility after I read an interview with the editor a month or so ago. It was when American mental health professionals were debating whether or not the President has a mental illness/disorder.  The editor's contention was that in order to be mentally ill/disordered the person has to be suffering and to his mind obviously the President isn't.   I'm sure there was a collective gasp from those of us that have ever had to deal with someone with NPD. Those with NPD have psychological defenses in place so that they avoid suffering any more true, but they definitely cause people around them to suffer emotionally because of their disorder personalities, and this is a key criteria or should be. Just ask the 30,000 members of Out of the Fog, and the members here who developed CPTSD from ongoing trauma caused by someone with a PD.  Or just turn on the US news. Anyway, it reinforced for me that the DSM should be used as a flexible guide rather than a bible because it is written and edited by humans who have their own biases, opinions, knowledge base, etc.   I'm just saying 

Anyway, just to bring this back to EMDR I think it's important for those of us choosing a therapy like this to know that practitioners don't always understand the differences between Complex PTSD and PTSD. For example, this new article contends there are six additional symptoms (versus the three originally proposed by clinicians/ researchers),  and that just has to make a difference in terms of treatment.

[sanmagic7]

thanks, kizzie.  i'm really so glad you found this.

unfortunately, like you said, the dsm is what it is and has been revised several times - it's now at #5, and has only recently taken homosexuality out as a 'disorder' - that's how far behind it is.  it is mostly used by ins. companies who determine how many sessions they'll cover for a particular 'disorder'.  depression used to get 8 sessions, and t's had to get creative and often lie in order to get their clients the help they needed.  but that's why it's been the 'bible' of the therapy community.  it's the only thing ins. companies have looked at in the past.  t's had to scramble to find a pertinent diagnosis to send to the ins. co.

the dsm is also symptom based, so a client is looked upon from the get-go as a walking mental illness.  it is not strength or wellness based, and too many t's don't look at a client from that angle.   i've brought up the idea of brain damage due to psych. trauma, and was basically told that it was an emdr network, period, and wasn't relevant as a topic to explore (they talk about physical traumatic brain injury regularly, and having a neurologist involved in that type of situation).  too many t's do not have open minds about learning more or broadening perspectives.

however, i do know of many emdr t's who are versed in complex trauma, and will utilize emdr thoughtfully and carefully, with wonderful results.   and, if they're not that well versed, they recognize when a client is getting overwhelmed, like elphanigh mentioned, and will slow things way down.  therapy is so much more than protocol.  i hope the emdr t's mentioned here will take a look at themselves and make a decision to do something differently.