Out of the Storm

I've just started emdr with a therapist and I have gotten significantly worse since.

I have had 3 sessions now and I've resorted back to old habits of over eating and drinking alcohol.

My anxiety is sky high and I feel like I'm on the verge of a mental breakdown. I spend most my days at work on the verge of tears.

The therapist said its normal for a while after but not too long. It's been over 3 weeks now.

Just wondering if it's linked to self sabotage.

Is my brain resisting emdr?

When I did emdr I would leave the session a wreck.  For the first time I was actually processing things.  Perhaps when we have avoided and numbed things will feel worse for awhile?  I don't think it will last forever, but feeling trauma is hard.

Hi I'm going through exactly that at the moment just had session 6 and binge eating and drinking like crazy! Seeing my therapist on Monday she seems to think it's normal but how long for I don't know.

Eyessoblue wow our situations sound exactly the same!

Are you also getting random tension headaches, for a few seconds at a time throughout the day? Not sure if that is connected.

Sooooo. What wine do you drink  ;D just joking.

I guess we just wait it out from here?

I am now speaking from personal experience (plus see other disclaimers below).

NO, NO, NO!!! It is not 'self-sabotage', or 'just needing practice feeling feelings', or 'normal'. (well, actually it is 'normal' in a sense but in the way that feeling pain when someone hits you is 'normal' rather than 'this is an acceptable way of being' 'normal'). For *some* (I would argue 'many' but have no data beyond anecdotal as it is not well researched) EMDR is actively harmful. EMDR can be (is?) tremendously re-traumatizing. Re-traumatizing is the LAST thing that someone with CPTSD needs. Although many mental health professionals still practise EMDR, many others are recognizing that this technique is not the panacea that some believe it to be. Again, for many of us it is actively harmful. It is NOT you, it IS the technique!

For years, I saw a therapist whose only tool was EMDR. For years, I got worse and worse. And for years, I got blamed for not doing it right - overall it was a lot like faith healers; if you fail to be cured it was not the fault of the healer but that of the client for not having enough faith. UGH! But, NO. EMDR IS re-traumatizing and that is the last thing that someone with CPTSD needs. Aside from that, there was for me always the problem of 'find the incident that caused that reaction'. I finally said to the therapist 'I can name about four times in my life that did not contribute to that reaction. The rest of my life did, which should I choose?' In other cases, I have the feelings and emotions, and a number of body sensations, but no 'real' memories (as is commons in CPTSD) - there is no incident in my memory to replay. Again, the blame - 'you're self-sabotaging', 'you're resisting treatment, etc'. NO, I was telling the truth - something a client ought to be able to do with one's therapist.

Finally, well not actually finally, but finally to keep this post a reasonable length, I always had the sense that emdr never really 'cured' the problem, it just put a bandaid over the feelings of it without ever dealing with the underlying issues. **potential trigger here - highlight the text if you would like to read it.** I use the example of my younger sister. When we were small, she fell on a broken bottle and cut her knee. Her knee 'healed' but continued to cause her large amounts of pain. Finally, my mother took her to the doctor, who discovered that a chunk of glass was still embedded in her knee. The doctor removed the glass and my sister finally actually healed. To me, emdr is like wanting to heal without removing the glass. For those who did not read the potential trigger - emdr for me was covering up the problem without actually dealing with it; I no longer felt the emotional upset/upheaval of the abusive incidents but also still carried them, and I believe that they were still 'active' even though I could not directly access the related emotions. I suspect that much of my later 'feeling like a wreck' was due to these unprocessed, but now hidden, emotions pushing their way back out in an effort to be properly heard and processed. emdr turns off the emotions but does not really process them. Again, failing to process emotions is the LAST thing that someone with CPTSD needs.

Now, I see a 'new' (for over two years 'new' :D) therapist, who practises sensory motor psychotherapy. Here, the therapist carefully leads the client to feel and process emotions and feelings related to abuse, and to physically undertake actions that the client needs/wishes to make to help process the emotions that were 'trapped' at the time of abuse - i.e. the client could not enact flight or fight so the emotions could not be released at the time. In therapy the client is able to safely enact a response to finally release that energy from the body. This form of therapy also allows for the processing of un-remembered memories (so to speak) as it works with the emotions and body sensations, which can be processed even if the client has not full memory of what happened. The therapist also has the job to monitor the client to ensure that she/he remains safe and does not go so far into a session as to cause re-traumatizing - there is no supposedly 'instant cure', because the sessions are careful with no re-traumatizing it sometimes takes a session or two to work through an event/emotion. Sometimes too, you work a bit then work on other things for a bit, then come back to something when you and your body are ready to re-visit the particular event/emotion. No, this is not the only type of therapy for CPTSD, nor is it one that would work for everyone (though it has been doing great, leaps-and-bounds healing for me). But it, along with other, usually related therapies, helps a person safely PROCESS rather than cover-up or avoid abuse-related emotions. And that processing, at least according to experts such as Bessel Van Der Kolk, is the way out of the black hole of CPTSD.



Disclaimers: I speak only from personal experience. I have no training in the mental health field. Yes, I have also done a huge amount of reading on this topic, but unfortunately do readings only for personal information/interest so cannot cite sources. Yes, I agree that some people think that emdr works for them. I also agree that each individual has every right to choose whichever therapy works for them. Yes, I also agree that any type of treatment is a factor not only of the treatment itself but also the therapist and the client and the dynamic between the two.

BUT I did need to speak up as I also firmly believe that it is WRONG to blame a client, whether overtly or accidentally or with good intention or not, when a therapy does not work for that individual. Emdr, like any therapy, sometimes just does not work for some people, even people who are participating fully in the therapy, who are not resisting treatment, who are not self-sabotaging, and who are genuinely giving their all to get well. Even then, sometimes a particular treatment does not work for some individuals. And even then, some treatments can be harmful to some individuals. And those factors are true even if the particular treatment has been useful to someone else.

It is important to recognize that not every treatment works for every individual and even that some treatments can be harmful to some individuals. Otherwise, the individual is left feeling that there is something wrong with them for not responding the way that they are 'supposed to respond' (and really, being told again that 'there is something wrong with you' is another last thing that someone with CPTSD needs). If a therapy is not working for you consider that it might not be  NOT you; it might, indeed, be the technique, the therapist, and/or a combination of the technique, the therapist and the dynamic between you. I would even suggest this in the face of so-called self-sabotage and resistance. If a therapy and/or therapist is right for you then it/they would help you work through those factors rather than entrench them; your instincts are often good about what you need (even though abusive situations teach us otherwise). If your instincts are rejecting a technique it is time to look at that technique and to talk this over with your therapist performing it to see if there is a way to work through the resistance or if a new technique is needed. A good therapist is open to having this discussion. A 'red flag' therapist shuts down the discussion with 'that's normal', 'you're self-sabotaging', etc. Even if those statements are true, they provide inadequate support to the client suffering these challenges.

Interesting read vanilla,

I have heard so many amazing things about emdr, but I guess it's one of those things that works for some and not others. It's concerning to me that you kept getting worse, I hope I don't keep getting worse as well. Surely the therapist would have the common sense to stop if my condition doesn't improve with more sessions. I'd hope so anyway.

I didn't get a chance to read the highlighted section because it wouldn't work on my phone. But I do agree that getting in touch with feelings like Bessel van der kolk suggests is key. Spartan life coach has also gone down that road and released an emotional literacy course. I'd love to hear a review of it if anyone has done it. His discipline course was incredibly powerful for me.

I'm not sure, I will stick with the emdr though for now until I discuss further with my therapist.

may i just add my two-cents' worth here?  i am an emdr therapist, and i've seen miracles happen around releasing trauma, tension, pain, and emotions with this technique.  i do believe that it is not always re-traumatizing for a client if the therapist is well-versed in the dynamics of trauma, especially complex trauma.

that being said, i also agree that it may not be for everyone, or that the fit between client and therapist is not quite right.  emdr works with the brain to reprocess whatever needs to be reprocessed in order to take the 'punch' out of it so that it no longer interferes with your life.

vanilla, i am truly sorry for your experience.  therapy can be painful, it can be difficult, it can be scary, but it should never be harmful.  i agree that if something doesn't go according to plan, it is not the client's fault.  the therapist needs to be monitoring progress, and creatively inventing ways and means to keep it moving forward for the client at the correct pace, one the client can tolerate. 

i think that anyone who is having problems such as described by 89 and eyes may need to speak to their t's about what's going on.  my gut thinks that the processing may be going too fast right now, and things need to be slowed down a bit in order to regain a sense of stability.    during emdr processing, our brains are working very hard to make changes.  as with any change that is sudden, or too big, our minds may find it disturbing, which can lead to devolving to old coping skills.

working with traumatization needs to be done slowly and in small steps, always looking to see how the client is tolerating the processing.  a good therapist will monitor this in order that the client does not get re-traumatized.    this is true no matter what type of therapy is being utilized.

it's also important to remember that we retain our power as clients, and we can say stop or slow down whenever we feel that things are moving too fast.  sometimes the therapist might not catch it or see what exactly is happening. 

i don't think you're self-sabotaging, 89, nor do i think your brain is resisting the emdr.   i do think it may have gotten overwhelmed by the changes that are going on.  if so, then it's time to slow down, process some of this with your t, just talk about it, skip the emdr processing for a session, maybe more, until you feel ready to continue.

also, vanilla, i agree that some adjunct physical-type processing may be helpful for feelings, and/or emotions, tension, and stress that have been trapped in the body for too long.  some type of somatic or energy healing work might be warranted for the physical part.  i, myself, have had both emdr and somatic work done for these things, and they've both been helpful.  the body keeps the score, and the brain runs the body.  there is an interconnection there, and these things do work differently for different people.

i would like to see those therapists be willing to explore what's going on with you re: your return to unhealthy coping skills, rather than kind of dismiss them by saying 'that's normal'.  processing between sessions is normal, feeling uneasy or having more dreams than usual is normal.  what both of you are describing i would hope that your therapist would like to look into in more detail in order to lessen the level of disturbance you're feeling that's causing you to go to such lengths to diminish it.

i hope any of this is helpful.  best to you all with your choices.  hugs all around.

As far as I understand it, EMDR can be re-traumatising and is therefore not always the best method for CPTSD. But it could be. It depends on the client and a multitude of other factors. My T dismissed it more or less out of hand for me, considered brain-spotting and did try that with me for a bit on neutral, non-trauma, topics and then eventually decided on screen-processing, with still pics (as opposed to movies). I have the feeling screen-processing is maybe not a major method in the English-speaking world? And maybe EMDR more common?

EMDR is maybe amazing, but so are the results from screen-processing.  ;)       It's about getting the right fit. I've been re-traumatised before in therapy on at least 4 other occasions with completely different therapists, including one who was trauma-informed and two who thought they were. That may be one reason my present T didn't even consider EMDR for me.

I admit, I return to unhealthy coping skills quite often. When I think that's getting out of hand, I tell my T, so that he knows what's going on. I've been exhausted since Thursday evening, probably a delayed reaction from the really hard topic I had up on the screen on Tuesday. I tend to over-eat when exhausted and sometimes I just don't care! That's probably self-sabotage.

We don't do screen processing every session. There are in-between sessions where we just talk about what's going on, how I've been reacting etc. Here in my country, they say "take a peak at something, then stabilise, stabilise, stabilise, take another peak, then stabilise, stabilise, stabilise" etc. (for trauma therapy).

This is a fascinating topic.  It's been interesting to read through all of the different opinions and experiences.  Something Vanilla said struck me and that was about having trouble trying to find an incident that caused a reaction to be used as the focus during EMDR.  My therapist suggested that EMDR wouldn't be a good fit for me for that exact reason.  I can't call up specific events and I think much of the damage done happened before I could even create those types of "recall-able" memories (vs. body/sensation memories).

Similarly, I've just started Somatic Experience therapy which Vanilla called sensory motor therapy.  I've only had three sessions, but I have a really good feeling about it.  I feel like I hit the jackpot with the person I'm seeing.  I've already learned a great deal. 

That being said, I think it's important for us to trust our instincts and minds.  I once joined a trauma therapy group.  The facilitator was a psychotherapist who endorsed a form of tapping to address the somatic side of C-PTSD.  There were about eight of us in the group.  The first session, he had us crammed into a very small room.  I was across the room from the door.  There was a standing lamp at my side that reminded me of one my parents had.  We went around the room telling our stories.  And then the therapist asked us all to close our eyes so he could put us through some guided imagery.  NOPE.  I was in a room of strangers with no clear escape route and he wanted me to shut my eyes?  Just NOPE.  I didn't go back.   

Wow, vanilla, that was some seriously bad 'therapy' you got there! I'm always shocked when I hear of therapists telling clients they're "not doing it right", even though I've met a couple myself.

Quote from: 89abc123 on July 22, 2017, 03:23:27 PM
It's concerning to me that you kept getting worse, I hope I don't keep getting worse as well. Surely the therapist would have the common sense to stop if my condition doesn't improve with more sessions. I'd hope so anyway.

There really isn't any quality control in therapy, and there is an alarming number of blame-the-client, I-know-best therapists who will plug blindly on no matter what.

My only experience of EMDR was with a therapist who claimed a 100 per cent success rate. I met some of her other clients in a group she set up, and it was clear we were all still extremely fragile. There's a lot of don't-upset-the-therapist goes on for those of us abused by authority figures. Throw in a boundaries issue and we don't know whether we're right to object or being "too sensitive".

I had this therapy for two years, at which point I relocated and the journey was too much for me. In two years we'd got precisely nowhere; I had all my presenting problems plus a few new ones. But I know the therapist would still be claiming her 100 per cent success rate, because the rider was "provided people stay with it to the end". When nothing's shifted in two years, is it realistic to expect there's going to be some giant aha! moment at some point in the future? I think not.

IMO the type of therapy is largely irrelevant; it's the individual therapist that can make all the difference.  As the forum demonstrates, there's great relief in knowing we're not alone with it any more.

Thanks for all the replies on this...

I haven't had a chance to see my therapist again so I'm still dealing with increased anxiety, I'm on the verge of tears most days, I can't concentrate. I'm having a really hard time.

Judging by the replies this isn't normal, so I'm not sure what I should do here. I'm worried I'll get 'stuck' like this if I don't continue the therapy??

When do you see your therapist?  Can you call?

good point from dee.  i agree, this should not be getting worse.  usually there's a period of discomfort, disturbance even, but as the brain makes the necessary adjustments, things settle down.   i hope you can get hold of your t and get some relief quickly.  big hug.

Hi I'm still the same as you, feel completely re traumatised now, can't eat this week literally forcing myself to, just feel completely overwhelmed and on the verge of tears every day, I'm re playing the traumas over and over in my head and causing myself more anxiety by doing so, my anxiety is the worst it's been for years, back to see counsellor on Monday by scared she won't offer me a solution to this, really interested to hear you are feeling the same it does make me feel I'm not alone.

hey, eyes,  i do hope you, too, get some resolution for this.  it doesn't sound right.  best to you, and quickly.  big hug.  i'm just so sorry you're both going thru this.  this shouldn't be happening, to my mind and from my experience. 

This is a long and important thread. I too am going through EMDR but the second it started to seem like it was re-traumatizing me, or making it worse my T slowed us down. We have come back to it but from my experience it shouldn't be making you worse. It is difficult, and forces a lot to be processed which has increased my symptoms some, but in my experience they shouldn't spike so entirely much that is is you getting actually worse.

I am really sorry you are both going through that.

Thank you for that, I am thinking the processing has been going too quickly for me, I feel completely overwhelmed by it all at the moment, I am going to speak to my therapist about it on Monday, she seems to think that I am holding on to traumas and don't actually feel safe in letting them go, maybe she's right I'm not sure but on the same hand I feel she should be finding a way for me to deal with that and not just telling that to me. She is a really lovely therapist and a good match to me so I don't want to lose faith in her but at the same time I think I need to speak up and be honest about how I feel.

That is a great idea. Talk to her about it, and tell her exactly what you said here. I think, since you say she is good, that she will help you through it :hug:

 had two bad reactions like some have had (3 day long EFs).  I quit.  I learned some time later from a somatic experiencing T (through work versus personal therapy), that with CPTSD EMDR can tap into too much trauma all at once because we have layers of accumulated trauma versus the single or thinner layer(s) of PTSD.  As such, the T has to be quite savvy/experienced in titrating (dip toe in, take toe out), and helping the client to learn how to ground and soothe themselves.  Mine did not do either. 

I also found in my two EMDR sessions I could not find a single traumatic experience to focus on, rather it was this streaming flow of trauma (I was going to write that it was a flow of something else  ;D), that was unleashed and it just completely overwhelmed me.   It may be better now I don't know as it was in the first year after I fell apart that I tried it.  I am more inclined to try the somatic experiencing since talking with my colleague and recently found one in my area - just working up the nerve to go ahead and book that first appt.   :whistling:

I quit but I did tell the EMDR T why and that she needed to consider that Complex PTSD is different than PTSD which she seemed to take in.  I had told them this when I went but feel they may have pooh-poohed me (as I find happens fairly often with professionals unfortunately), and carried on regardless. Hopefully she and her colleagues have taken some additional training since then. I have recently seen courses for EMDR practitioners specifically about CPTSD in my meanderings around the Internet, so for me that seems to confirm they are becoming aware of the differences between PTSD and Complex PTSD and that it requires adjusting their approach.

Kizzie that is a great thing to remember.  I think I am lucky with one that can tip toe in and out. Who can help keep me grounded in one layer of my trauma. She works really hard to me not overwhelmed. It happened at first until she realize she was dealing with Cptsd. We took a step back for a month or so and grounded myself in everything. Only recently have we picked up again, and started with simpler, more recent things

i hope you both talk to your t's, and that they will slow down, explore what's going on, take a break, do what's necessary to get you grounded and stabilized.  being overwhelmed by all this is not what trauma therapy is about.  best to you both, and i hope you have good results.

kizzie, i'm truly sorry for your neg. experience.  unfortunately, there are still too many t's who don't want to learn, and it grinds my teeth.  i belong to an emdr network, and have brought up both c-ptsd and alexithymia to them.  it was not always well received.  however, some did ask me for more details and are now more informed.  i'm glad for their clients.

i'm also glad that you are looking to do somatic processing.  i truly believe c-ptsd is best healed thru a variety of approaches and therapies.  too many layers contain too many different types of trauma.  it's too much for just one type of therapy to be all-encompassing, to my mind.

sending you a big hug filled with the courage you need to make that appt. and begin a new experience.  you have done so much for so many here, i believe you deserve to do for yourself as well.  i hope you'll keep us informed after your first session.   i'd love to hear how it goes for you.      :bighug:

Kizzie that is a really interesting thing you say there about cptsd because according to my therapist cptsd doesn't actually exist as it's not under the dsm so to her it is just ptsd and that is it! Maybe I need to educate her a little! I know although I've been diagnosed with ptsd it is definitely cptsd that I have. This is so frustrating!

Quote from: Eyessoblue on July 29, 2017, 01:19:47 PM
Kizzie that is a really interesting thing you say there about cptsd because according to my therapist cptsd doesn't actually exist as it's not under the dsm so to her it is just ptsd and that is it! Maybe I need to educate her a little! I know although I've been diagnosed with ptsd it is definitely cptsd that I have. This is so frustrating!

Well big news!  Complex PTSD will become official this year so  :applause:    and    :cheer: 

"With the release of the ICD [International Classification of Diseases] (Edition) 11 by the WHO [World Health Organization] in 2017 the diagnostic nomenclature will include for the first time a diagnosis of CPTSD." 

The reference for this is a bit long but it's:

Hyland, P., Shevlin, M., Elklit, A., Murphy, J., Vallières, F., Garvert, D. W., & Cloitre, M. (2017). An assessment of the construct validity of the ICD-11 proposal for Complex Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. Psychological Trauma: Theory, Research, Practice, And Policy, doi:10.1037/tra0000114.

And if you really want to make the point to your T, there are quite a few clinical research articles she can have a look at here : http://www.outofthestorm.website/academic-articles/.  While there has been some debate about CPTSD and it is not in the AMA's current DSM, there are just as many clinicians and researchers who have considered it a valid diagnostic construct since the 90's, and have waged a research war of sorts to validate it. 

Anyway, the bottom line is that the 11th edition of the WHO ICD will make Complex PTSD "official" and that should help all of us.  ;D

thank you, god.  at last!  it'll be interesting to see how long the dsm takes to catch up.  after all, it is the clinician's bible.  i never even heard of your reference, kizzie.  tunnel vision - ack!!!

 :applause:    and    :cheer:  indeed, Kizzie!

I like the look of this:

... We also hypothesized that the CPTSD class would report more frequent and a greater number of different types of childhood trauma as well as higher levels of functional impairment. Methods Participants in this study were a sample of individuals who were referred for psychological therapy to a National Health Service (NHS) trauma centre in Scotland (N=193). Participants completed the ICD-TQ as well as measures of life events and functioning.

RESULTS:
Overall, results indicate that using the newly developed ICD-TQ, two subgroups of treatment-seeking individuals could be empirically distinguished based on different patterns of symptom endorsement; a small group high in PTSD symptoms only and a larger group high in CPTSD symptoms. In addition, CPTSD was more strongly associated with more frequent and a greater accumulation of different types of childhood traumatic experiences and poorer functional impairment.

LIMITATIONS:
Sample predominantly consisted of people who had experienced childhood psychological trauma or been multiply traumatised in childhood and adulthood.

CONCLUSIONS:
CPTSD is highly prevalent in treatment seeking populations who have been multiply traumatised in childhood and adulthood and appropriate interventions should now be developed to aid recovery from this debilitating condition.
[/i]

Good stuff!

Kizzie  :cheer: this is amazing news! This makes me so happy at last we are to be recognised. This is such a positive outcome for all those affected by cptsd let's hope we can all get the help we so desperately need..

thanks, candid.  that sure is good stuff.  it's nearly unbelievable for me, but it's so validating, especially the part about the decreased levels of functioning caused by the layers of trauma.  i'm shaking my head in disbelief.  i'll be taking this to this new t i'll be seeing in 8 days.  this is incredible.  i feel like i'm in shock.

The Hyland article is from 2017 San, fresh off the press so to speak so you probably wouldn't have seen it.  (Same for the article Candid referenced - 2017.) I just go fishing every once in a while to see what's new and there it was.  Needless to say I was really quite excited to read it.  In the back of my head I could hear myself saying, "Well 3850 mbrs of OOTS could have told you this" but I know these kinds of issues must be based on empirical data evidence. 

If you have a look at the other articles you can see there has been quite the battle raging over validating Complex PTSD as a valid diagnostic construct - Resick and crew being the naysayers.  I have no idea if/when it will be accepted in the APA's DSM  but that it is in the ICD is certainly (hopefully) a huge step forward given it's international in scope. 

Just to take things sideways for a  moment - I'm not overly confident about the DSM's credibility after I read an interview with the editor a month or so ago. It was when American mental health professionals were debating whether or not the President has a mental illness/disorder.  The editor's contention was that in order to be mentally ill/disordered the person has to be suffering and to his mind obviously the President isn't.   I'm sure there was a collective gasp from those of us that have ever had to deal with someone with NPD. Those with NPD have psychological defenses in place so that they avoid suffering any more true, but they definitely cause people around them to suffer emotionally because of their disorder personalities, and this is a key criteria or should be. Just ask the 30,000 members of Out of the Fog, and the members here who developed CPTSD from ongoing trauma caused by someone with a PD.  Or just turn on the US news. Anyway, it reinforced for me that the DSM should be used as a flexible guide rather than a bible because it is written and edited by humans who have their own biases, opinions, knowledge base, etc.   I'm just saying  :Idunno:

Anyway, just to bring this back to EMDR I think it's important for those of us choosing a therapy like this to know that practitioners don't always understand the differences between Complex PTSD and PTSD. For example, this new article contends there are six additional symptoms (versus the three originally proposed by clinicians/ researchers),  and that just has to make a difference in terms of treatment.

thanks, kizzie.  i'm really so glad you found this.

unfortunately, like you said, the dsm is what it is and has been revised several times - it's now at #5, and has only recently taken homosexuality out as a 'disorder' - that's how far behind it is.  it is mostly used by ins. companies who determine how many sessions they'll cover for a particular 'disorder'.  depression used to get 8 sessions, and t's had to get creative and often lie in order to get their clients the help they needed.  but that's why it's been the 'bible' of the therapy community.  it's the only thing ins. companies have looked at in the past.  t's had to scramble to find a pertinent diagnosis to send to the ins. co.

the dsm is also symptom based, so a client is looked upon from the get-go as a walking mental illness.  it is not strength or wellness based, and too many t's don't look at a client from that angle.   i've brought up the idea of brain damage due to psych. trauma, and was basically told that it was an emdr network, period, and wasn't relevant as a topic to explore (they talk about physical traumatic brain injury regularly, and having a neurologist involved in that type of situation).  too many t's do not have open minds about learning more or broadening perspectives.

however, i do know of many emdr t's who are versed in complex trauma, and will utilize emdr thoughtfully and carefully, with wonderful results.   and, if they're not that well versed, they recognize when a client is getting overwhelmed, like elphanigh mentioned, and will slow things way down.  therapy is so much more than protocol.  i hope the emdr t's mentioned here will take a look at themselves and make a decision to do something differently. 

I had a look around at the clinical research on EMDR for Complex PTSD and found three articles (so the good news is there is research being conducted and Eyessoblue you can take these to your T):

Bongaerts, H., Van Minnen, A., & de Jongh, A. (2017). Intensive EMDR to treat patients with Complex Posttraumatic Stress Disorder: A case series. Journal of EMDR Practice & Research, 11(2), 84-95. doi:10.1891/1933-3196.11.2.84. (Note: No pdf/link is available for this article so I've included the abstract.)

Abstract: There is mounting evidence suggesting that by increasing the frequency of treatment sessions, posttraumatic stress disorder (PTSD) treatment outcomes significantly improve. As part of an ongoing research project, this study examined the safety and effectiveness of intensive eye movement desensitization and reprocessing (EMDR) therapy in a group of seven (four female) patients suffering from complex PTSD and multiple comorbidities resulting from childhood sexual abuse, physical abuse, and/or work and combat-related trauma. Treatment was not preceded by a preparation phase and consisted of 2 x 4 consecutive days of EMDR therapy administered in morning and afternoon sessions of 90 minutes each, interspersed with intensive physical activity and psychoeducation. Outcome measures were the Clinician-Administered PTSD Scale (CAPS) and the PTSD Symptom Scale Self-report questionnaire (PSS-SR). During treatment, neither personal adverse events nor dropout occurred. CAPS scores decreased significantly from pre- to posttreatment, and four of the seven patients lost their PTSD diagnosis as established with the CAPS. The results were maintained at 3-month follow-up. Effect sizes (Cohen's d) on the CAPS and PSS-SR were large: 3.2, 1.7 (prepost) and 2.3, 2.1 (prefollow-up), respectively. The results of this case series suggest that an intensive program using EMDR therapy is a potentially safe and effective treatment alternative for complex PTSD. The application of massed, consecutive days of treatments using EMDR therapy for patients suffering from PTSD, particularly those with multiple comorbidities, merits more clinical and research attention.

Forgash, C., & Knipe, J. (2012). Integrating EMDR and ego state treatment for clients with trauma disorders. Journal of EMDR Practice & Research, 6(3), 120-128. Retrieved from: http://www.ingentaconnect.com/contentone/springer/emdr/2012/00000006/00000003/art00006?crawler=true&mimetype=application/pdf

Korn, D. L. (2009). EMDR and the treatment of Complex PTSD: A review. Journal of EMDR Practice & Research, 3(4), 264-278. Retrieved from: http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/springer/emdr/2009/00000003/00000004/art00006?crawler=true&mimetype=application/pdf.

Thank you kizzie.

I know that I am somewhat late in commenting here, but a) the topic turned out to be really triggering for me, and b) I recently went on holiday with no real online activity :)

89 and eyes, I hope you are both settling and figuring things out, whether you opted to continue with EMDR or not. I am hoping too that you had a chance to talk with your Ts and got constructive results.

I think, as many people noted, that it is critical to have the proper therapist - both someone well versed in the technique and someone with whom you can build a rapport (both points true no matter which therapeutic technique(s) are used). In my case, neither point was true. Unfortunately, at the beginning I was not far enough along my healing journey to have seen the red flags. When I started seeing them I did not know what to do about them. Worse, my T manipulated me in the same way as my NM, which made her machinations both difficult for me to see and, at the time, virtually impossible for me to defend against. However, with the help of a couple friends, to whom I went for a reality check, I began asserting my needs and wants, and concerns (often weakly, and generally politely). My T felt very threatened by my questioning of what was going on. Eventually, she fired me. As traumatic as that was at the time, it was also a favour as it freed me to seek someone else.

I had a meta-discussion with my current T about what happened, the fallout on me, and what that meant going forward in any therapeutic relationship in the future. We made a deal: I will tell him (weakly, politely, rudely, writing it down, using charades - yes that actually is an option) in some way, shape or form) if I am feeling uncomfortable about any thing going on during our therapy appointments. In turn, he regularly checks in with me to touch base on how I am feeling about how things our going, the ways we interact, etc. So far so good. We have never had a falling out but that is largely because we never allow concerns to grow and fester and lead to a falling out. We have both kept our word; I have only had very minor concerns, and my 'new' T has responded constructively to my thoughts and feelings, and so trust is built and progress is made.

Yes, that is the key, with any type of therapeutic strategy(ies), building trust and rapport with the therapist, and having a therapist who can be trusted and open to feedback and concerns.

p.s. Sanmagic7 - I think if I had had a therapist like you I would have been much better off. Though, now it sounds like I do have a therapist like you and I am much better off. Your clients are fortunate to have you. 

Hi yes, you are so right, if the therapist doesn't feel like a right match then there's no point in continuing with them, I'm just so very lucky, I have a therapist who from the moment I met her I just 'clicked' with. My EMDR sessions went really well but it did bring up a lot of other 'stuff' but rather then disregard me she has stopped the process for now and is going to do a few weeks of intensive psychotherapy to get me re grounded and talk about the issues I have and then re start EMDR again when 'i' feel ready. This is so important and I really now can see the light at the end of the tunnel, my anxiety in general has gone right down and I am starting to feel more 'normal' but you have to get that connection right which thankfully I have.

Eyessoblue - that is great news. It is wonderful that you found a therapist who is willing and able to have that discussion with you and who is willing and able to help you through the hurdles you have been experiencing. I am so happy for you that you have found this and hope as you move forward in your journey. We are indeed lucky that we have found the persons we need (and want) to help us move forward.

vanilla, that was such a sweet thing to say, and i thank you from the bottom of my heart.  you moved me almost to tears.  i'm just so glad for you that you've found someone with whom you can feel comfortable doing this work.  that's the best news.  big hug to you.

Well said I Like Vanilla  :thumbup: