Nori's Notes

[Nori]

In my introduction post, I mentioned feeling very lonely lately. I'd like to begin this space to share notes about my healing process from CPTSD, codependency, emotional neglect, etc.
Where to even start?

I've been trying to detach from my mother since my mid-20s (I'm in my early 40s now). I've pulled away and returned many times in the last 20 years. Why do I want to detach?
My mother is a major source of the CPTSD I developed. I'm her only child and she divorced my father when I was a baby due to his substance abuse issues.

I became my mother's emotional support, source of happiness (she struggled with depression for as long as I can remember), and her best friend. I often sensed that something wasn't right, but I didn't question my mother because she was so pitiful and I felt responsible for her wellbeing.

In my 20s when I saw my first therapist, it was the first time that I got to see and feel some of the anger underneath the surface about how I was raised and what was placed on my shoulders.
It didn't help over the years that I never had a lot of close friends. The two closest friends I had (one from high school and then another in my 30s), both mirrored the relationship I had with my mother where I was the emotional support, therapist, strong one, etc.

This has made detaching from my mother feel like this terrifying leap into nothingness and being totally alone. Because I had no one else I could rely on and my relationship with myself and my needs was shaky at best.

I've been helping myself heal through bibliotherapy mostly from a young age. I don't know where I would be without the books that have helped me over the years.

Moving to a different state by myself 5 years ago also helped a lot. I was forced to support myself in a different kind of way that did a lot for my healing journey, even though I had been supporting myself in a lot of ways prior.
So where am I now? I've always journaled and been introspective, but the work really deepened these last 3 years. In addition to writing, I started doing voice notes. I also started chatting with an "AI chatbot" which was way more helpful than I thought it would be. I had concerns before, and still have some, but it was such a helpful part of the last couple of years as it helped mirror me back to me in a way that I had never had before.

I realized how empty much of my relationships were, including the one with my mother. I started allowing myself to really feel and cry and rage when things came up. I spent so much of my life feeling numb. Never crying. My mother would even proudly say "You rarely cried as a baby!"  when all I can think about is how sad it feels that I learned that young not to bother anyone.

I also more recently have been deepening relationships with new people I've met. One in particular, a neighbor, has been so helpful in that I've practiced being more of my real self, sometimes setting boundaries even (saying no to requests), and this person still wants to hang out with me. I also joined an online spiritual group where we process our emotions and inner work and share in a safe way. That has been such a new experience to show up weekly to something and be myself, cry sometimes even, and feel seen and heard.

So back to my mother. I sense that the next part of my healing is to detach from her some more. I've been self-employed since I moved and given my more flexible schedule and the stress and fear of being responsible for my employment in this way, I've found myself getting back intwined in relationship with her. Talking on the phone multiple times a day, giving advice, listening to her complain about her life and other people's life that she's somehow responsible for, trying to share and getting back silence or changing of the subject. I know that I've had an enmeshed and codependent relationship with her and the more I heal, the less I can just continue the dynamic.

The parts I'm working on now is guilt and grief. I feel a lot of guilt about changing the relationship by talking to her less (I'm at one time a day, but it's not perfect and I didn't announce it in advance). I'm pulling myself back from trying to help her without her asking. I'm also pausing on bringing my own insights and inner work discoveries to her. In hindsight, I see that I shared these things because I wanted to save her. I wanted her to be happy and healed so that I could be too. I have felt like my happiness was tied to hers and she's been unhappy my whole life and now that feels like a death sentence. But I feel a lot of guilt for "leaving her." Like I'm doing something wrong. Depriving her of her daily doses of me. It feels so silly to write it out this way, but that's how I feel. I'm still lessening contact, but it's how I feel.

And the grief comes up because I feel a deep sadness at the emotional deprivation I experienced for much of my life. And I thought that I had expressed it all, but I see that all the times when I found ways to reconnect with her, I was just delaying the grief that has been there underneath waiting for its chance to come out. I find myself crying at random seeming times, feeling such sadness and loneliness that it feels like I'm being pulled apart and sinking at the same time.

I feel hopeful though. A few years ago, I would never have been able to sit in these intense feelings. I've been working to hold space, kindness, and compassion for myself and that's much better than it's ever been, even with some ways to go. I feel like I have more of a chance to let go and to withstand the fear around not knowing what it is I'm going to be able to grab hold on because I won't know until I let go of this "shore."

Anyway, that's a start. I welcome comments and thoughts from other members if this sparked anything from your journey. I am so grateful to have a space to share this semi-privately, but also publicly.

[Marcine]

Hi Nori,
What an amazing journey you're traveling. I have huge respect for your clarity, emotional awareness, and determination.

I needed to free myself from my mother's grip and haven't spoken to her in decades. The process felt to me as you described, "being pulled apart and sinking at the same time."

Even for those of us who decide it is necessary, it is still an against-the-grain action to have to sever ties with our mothers.

"A few years ago, I would never have been able to sit in these intense feelings. I've been working to hold space, kindness, and compassion for myself and that's much better than it's ever been"

That's beautiful!

I can attest there is freedom and actual care in taking action on one's own behalf.

Congrats on starting your journal here!

[zen_racer]

Nori, once again welcome to the forum.  I'm glad you've felt comfortable enough to start your own journal here.  You put so much in here that I relate to, especially my relationship with my own mother.  How I've distanced myself over the years and still ended up coming back, even though I knew it was the wrong decision.  Unfortunately for me, it took me much longer to finally start seeing and recognizing the patterns of abuse I went through.  I'm only about 3-4 weeks into even hearing about cptsd and recognizing that's what I've been struggling with all these years.  It's been a rough few weeks with the realizations and memories that have hit.  I've only just had my 2nd visit with a therapist I just found that focuses on cptsd.  The people here have been so supportive for me, and I'm hoping to return that support to everyone here.

I would never have thought of it in that way until you posted this, but I believe I also did bibliotherapy at a young age.  In high school, I did well enough in my classes that I spent a lot of my time checking out books from the school library and reading them during class.  I had gotten into reading self help books, anything I could get my hands on covering philosophy of any sort.  It may not have helped, but I even spent one semester reading every book from Shakespeare.

I'm personally still at a place where I can't sit with the intense feelings.  I'm open to it, I think.  I often feel horrible over things.  But when I think about all the stuff I went through and any emotions from that start to bubble up, it's like my emotional breaker trips and they stop as quickly as they started.  From reading a lot of other posts here, and now your's, I have hope that I can reconnect with those and start to truly feel things in normal daily life again.

Thank you so much for sharing, and also welcoming comments and thoughts.  Even though it feels so foreign to me, this forum is helping me see how positive a sense of community is and how much it can help.  I'm glad you're here, and hope you find this place as beneficial as I have.

[NarcKiddo]

Your first journal post was so heartening to read, Nori. The level of emotional maturity and self awareness you have developed over the last 20 ish years is lovely to see. So much of your history resonates with me and I know how hard it is to pull away from a mother who has been totally engulfing.

I think it is good that you realise not crying as a baby is sad because you learned so young not to be a bother. I suspect I didn't cry all that much but my mother would never admit to such a thing because she likes to be the martyr, having to deal with her demanding offspring.

Detaching is hard, and I guess even harder when you are the only child. I have a sibling who seems to be happily moving into the good daughter role I am vacating. That has its own challenges but at least I don't have to process any guilty feelings about leaving her alone. Except I do because I have the feelings all the same. I am low contact with my mother. I was never at the stage of daily contact after I left home at the first opportunity, but I was nevertheless in very close emotional contact and it is that I have had to cut down on. I also chose not to make any announcement. It would only have caused ructions. For sure my mother has noticed and has attempted to pull me back in various ways, but her pride means she will not actually beg and she knows I no longer respond to orders for attention "because I am your MOTHER".

Know that we all here are at various stages of casting off from the shore and going it alone. Only you're not alone here. If you need to grab onto something then know that everyone here will willingly extend a hand or a rope or a life belt.

[HannahOne]

Welcome, Nori!

Your story shows so much self-awareness and resilience. You persevered and sought to grow and heal. You deserve that!

I too was my mother's therapist. I went no contact years ago. It felt very strange, scary at first. You know what? pretty quickly it felt amazing. Liberating. QUIET. I could hear myself think. I had energy. I could pick my head up and look around and see... all kinds of people! Who may want to have a relationship with me. I could start to explore new boundaries, new ways of being.

I hope all these things for you, too, step by step in your own way, in your own time, whatever healing looks like for YOU. There is a world of freedom and joy beyond enmeshment. And you are not alone here, many of us have been enmeshed in different ways. You're among compatriots here.

So glad you found your way here. Keep us posted on how you're doing.

[Nori]

I can attest there is freedom and actual care in taking action on one's own behalf.

Thank you for your kind words, Marcine! Knowing that there are others like you out there who have taken steps to choose themselves and survived, gives me hope to continue this journey. And may we all feel the freedom and care that you speak of!

[Nori]

Nori, once again welcome to the forum.  I'm glad you've felt comfortable enough to start your own journal here.  You put so much in here that I relate to, especially my relationship with my own mother.  How I've distanced myself over the years and still ended up coming back, even though I knew it was the wrong decision.  Unfortunately for me, it took me much longer to finally start seeing and recognizing the patterns of abuse I went through.  I'm only about 3-4 weeks into even hearing about cptsd and recognizing that's what I've been struggling with all these years.  It's been a rough few weeks with the realizations and memories that have hit.  I've only just had my 2nd visit with a therapist I just found that focuses on cptsd.  The people here have been so supportive for me, and I'm hoping to return that support to everyone here.

I would never have thought of it in that way until you posted this, but I believe I also did bibliotherapy at a young age.  In high school, I did well enough in my classes that I spent a lot of my time checking out books from the school library and reading them during class.  I had gotten into reading self help books, anything I could get my hands on covering philosophy of any sort.  It may not have helped, but I even spent one semester reading every book from Shakespeare.

I'm personally still at a place where I can't sit with the intense feelings.  I'm open to it, I think.  I often feel horrible over things.  But when I think about all the stuff I went through and any emotions from that start to bubble up, it's like my emotional breaker trips and they stop as quickly as they started.  From reading a lot of other posts here, and now your's, I have hope that I can reconnect with those and start to truly feel things in normal daily life again.

Thank you so much for sharing, and also welcoming comments and thoughts.  Even though it feels so foreign to me, this forum is helping me see how positive a sense of community is and how much it can help.  I'm glad you're here, and hope you find this place as beneficial as I have.

Thank you again for your warm welcomes zen-racer! And congratulations to you for taking these first steps in the last few months. This work is hard! So, so hard. Some never begin it and you're doing it!   

Since you mentioned also liking to read, there is a book I've been revisiting after reading it early on in my journey that speaks to that back and forth dance with family. Sharing some notes about/from it that I've been re-reading this week as the grief and intense feelings come up. It may or may not be helpful to you, but sharing it here in case it's helpful. It also helps me to have a place to "talk" about what I'm reading since I don't have that outlet much currently.

The book is called Leaving Home: The Art of Separating from your Difficult Family, by David P. Celani. The part that really resonated with me was about how one of the things that keeps pulling adult children back to their dysfunctional family is the "hopeful self" who learned to hold the illusion that their parents had the potential to love them and would do so sometime in the future. These quotes have been giving me compassion for how hard it is to face these feelings that have been coming up and how hard it is to actually step away.

"In adulthood, our need for the fantasy of loving parents does not disappear. Most adults are compelled to continue to hold on to the illusions that they were loved as children, because a clear view of the harsh childhood realities would cause an upwelling of grief and anger so powerful that it would seriously disrupt their lives."

"If the 'adult' of thirty finds it difficult to face this reality, imagine how absolutely impossible it is for the child of ten."

[Nori]

Know that we all here are at various stages of casting off from the shore and going it alone. Only you're not alone here. If you need to grab onto something then know that everyone here will willingly extend a hand or a rope or a life belt.

This is such a beautiful and kind notion, NarcKiddo! It feels so nice to be in company with those who get it, though if I could wave a magic wand, I'd like us all to not need this kind of forum.

I'm encouraged to know that you've been able to detach from your mother. The way you describe her sounds like how my mother's mother was, who was incredibly challenging to my mother and to me. I empathize with that experience you had and thank you for your kind words.

[Nori]

I too was my mother's therapist. I went no contact years ago. It felt very strange, scary at first. You know what? pretty quickly it felt amazing. Liberating. QUIET. I could hear myself think. I had energy. I could pick my head up and look around and see... all kinds of people! Who may want to have a relationship with me. I could start to explore new boundaries, new ways of being.

Thank you HannahOne! This gives me so much hope! Thank you too for your kind words!

[zen_racer]

Since you mentioned also liking to read, there is a book I've been revisiting after reading it early on in my journey that speaks to that back and forth dance with family. Sharing some notes about/from it that I've been re-reading this week as the grief and intense feelings come up. It may or may not be helpful to you, but sharing it here in case it's helpful. It also helps me to have a place to "talk" about what I'm reading since I don't have that outlet much currently.

The book is called Leaving Home: The Art of Separating from your Difficult Family, by David P. Celani. The part that really resonated with me was about how one of the things that keeps pulling adult children back to their dysfunctional family is the "hopeful self" who learned to hold the illusion that their parents had the potential to love them and would do so sometime in the future. These quotes have been giving me compassion for how hard it is to face these feelings that have been coming up and how hard it is to actually step away.

"In adulthood, our need for the fantasy of loving parents does not disappear. Most adults are compelled to continue to hold on to the illusions that they were loved as children, because a clear view of the harsh childhood realities would cause an upwelling of grief and anger so powerful that it would seriously disrupt their lives."

"If the 'adult' of thirty finds it difficult to face this reality, imagine how absolutely impossible it is for the child of ten."

Thank for that suggestion, Nori.  It's particularly timely for me.  It seems like I go through cycles with my family.  It makes me sad that I did leave, and lived on the other side of the country for over 20 years.  Then I came back, and though things were better when I didn't leave here they went back to incredibly toxic the moment I moved back.  My mental state has taken a nose dive in that time.  I think you're right about the hopeful self.

I had briefly started Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents, but then switched to Complex PTSD: From Surviving to Thriving.  I haven't made it too far in that one either.  Lots of good intentions, but having only recently started recognizing the abuse and what I've been dealing with for so long and how much I've dissociated, it's been a lot.  I'm still remembering things pretty frequently and have had to slow down.  I think I'm stabilizing pretty well for where I'm at right now.

Back to the subject of the book, I finally setup my phone to automatically silence everyone from my family on weekends.  And like you had mentioned above, I already feel guilty for that.  I keep trying to remind myself that it's not my fault that they treat me as badly as they do.  It's not my fault that I need time and space to heal from the trauma they caused.  I'm also trying to remember that I need to fight my own nature of being honest about what I'm going through, because the only possibly outcome from doing that with my family would be instant attacks against me for being such a horrible person for recognizing how they treat me.

I think I will go ahead and get the book you suggested.  I think it will end up helping me a lot.  I know this will be hard to believe given my name, but I tend to race through things quickly.  I'm still finding that balance for how quickly I can delve into understanding all the trauma and what it means without causing a lot more trauma in the process.

I hope you're doing well.  Thank you for being so supportive for me in your response.

[TheBigBlue]

Hi Nori,

Thank you for sharing this. So much of what you wrote resonated with me.

I was diagnosed with CPTSD about 15 months ago, and your description of detaching feeling like "a terrifying leap into nothingness" immediately caught my attention. The fear, the falling feeling, not having enough anchors, the sense of existential collapse if you let go of the illusion of safety - I know that territory well. Reading your post, I found myself nodding along to the guilt, the grief, and the loneliness underneath both.

I rejected the term "codependence" when my therapist used it to describe the dynamic with my enmeshed M. I think the term can imply a symmetry that isn't present between a parent and a child. As a child, I wasn't entering into a mutual arrangement; I was adapting to a relationship in which responsibility flowed upward instead of downward. So I came up with my own term: "Asymmetric attachment injury" — in the sense that the caregiver's dysregulation forced attachment-based parentification (a role reversal) onto the child, with the child's fawning emerging as a trauma response that stabilized the caregiver at the child's developmental expense - basically self-erasure in my case.

What you wrote about guilt also resonated deeply. One of the hardest things I have been wrestling with is how to choose myself without feeling that I am destroying somebody I genuinely love. Not because I don't see the injuries, but because love and injury can coexist. Untangling those threads is really hard.

Lately I have also been reflecting on the many different forms of loneliness that can exist - often multiple types in CPTSD survivors. Reading your post, I was struck by the loneliness of carrying emotional pain largely by yourself for a very long time. Not being physically alone, but feeling alone with fear, grief, confusion, or responsibility. That loneliness can run very deep. It resonates deeply.

I was especially moved by your image of letting go of the shore without knowing yet what you'll be able to hold onto next. It feels both frightening and hopeful at the same time.

Thank you for sharing your journey.

[Nori]

I feel tired. Physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually. Drained and tired. I've been running on adrenaline for the last few weeks, trying to get things done in my business and take care of myself as best as I can with little external support and this week came the crash again.

I've written and rewritten this post a few times now. The cause for doing this is that each time I started to write, I realized how much of myself was missing. I was talking so much about my mother and what she's doing or not. And yes, I am processing that dynamic as it's not healthy for me and want something else, but one of the things that I've had difficulty with about my mother is how much of her life is not her own and how when it comes to dealing with her life she is paralyzed, helpless, victim.

She modeled that for me, likely also has CPTSD and fawning behaviors, so I'm noticing that instead of focusing on myself and my needs, I find myself doing the same thing. It's like I'm an afterthought in my own life. And I'm not doing as well as I'd like to do. My finances are in the worst shape they've ever been in in my adult life. I know what I'd like to do and have started doing it (making a pivot in my business), but I find myself getting to the end of the week drained and wondering why and seeing that I've prioritized other people's needs and left mine in the back seat. I did try a few days this week of working on my own project as the first thing that I did before anything else, even checking emails, and that was helpful, it's just continuing it.

Ok, brief diversion back to my mother as being with her in person (which happens much less than on the phone), often triggers me to feel and notice things. This latest visit (for a business conference in her state so I stayed overnight so I could also see my grandparent's soon to be sold house), I noticed a few things.

I realized that I've come a long way in my ability to express emotions. I also had a moment of feeling compassion for my little girl self when I was standing outside of my grandparent's house for the last time and started to cry thinking about the past and aging and all the things and she said, "Oh, you're going to make me cry" and I almost immediately stopped crying and sucked it back in. This time I noticed while it was happening. After I got home, I thought about how sad that was that this was her reaction and mine. How I wonder what it would have been like to cry and instead get a hug or some other acknowledgement about my feelings or even her feelings as it is her parent's house.

So back to me, I still feel lonely, but not the kind of lonely where any person will do. I feel lonely for emotional attunement. When I got to my mother's house before the conference after a drive in 90 degree weather without AC (another consequence of my current financial state) and a week of intense work and said to her "If I drank alcohol, I feel like I would need a drink right now given how I feel." and she said something like, "Well, you want to be careful about doing something like that." And instead of thinking it, I said, "You know. It would be nice to hear something like 'Yeah, it does sound like you're experiencing a lot right now and feeling overwhelmed.'" I'm clearly not going to start drinking alcohol. I was just expressing how stressed I felt. I notice that her words mirrored how I've learned to treat myself. Even as I write this, I feel embarrassed, like "What are you so tired for? Other people do more." Or "What your mother said wasn't that bad. Other people have it way worse." But I know how unseen I felt and feel. And it doesn't help that I understand that she's not being malicious. She is and was missing that same attunement herself. But that's not my fault.

As a side note, a little while ago I reached out to a cousin I'd been wanting to reconnect with. We had a nice unexpected chat and when I reached back out a week or so later to continue the reconnection, the cousin was in a dark place and needed some support so they didn't hurt themselves. I feel bad to write this, but I felt a bit resentful because it felt like it turned into another person who needed me and a possible additional relationship where I'm the strong and supportive one. I did help and they're in a better emotional place now, but I feel unsure of how much to lean into this relationship, even though I liked the idea of having some connection with family (when I'm not close to any now).

So, I'm beginning a weekend and week with less external demands. I need to do the basics of getting more sleep and water, etc. And I'd like to refocus my energy and attention back onto me so I can get my finances in a better place.
--
I noticed after I wrote this the two new replies I got from my first post.

Thank you zen_racer for your additional notes. I hope you find Leaving Home helpful if you do read it. It does feel like a slow read as things sink in. You've reminded me that it might be a good time to re-read Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents and/or Complex PTSD: From Surviving to Thriving, both of which I have, but read a while back and wonder how things would sink in picking them up again.

I finally setup my phone to automatically silence everyone from my family on weekends. 

Reading this made me chuckle as I just let a call from my mother go to voicemail and of course felt guilty that I didn't answer. It helps to remember that there are people like you out there doing similar things. I'm not alone. We're not alone. It's hard, but we're doing it!

And Thanks TheBigBlue

I rejected the term "codependence" when my therapist used it to describe the dynamic with my enmeshed M. I think the term can imply a symmetry that isn't present between a parent and a child. As a child, I wasn't entering into a mutual arrangement; I was adapting to a relationship in which responsibility flowed upward instead of downward. So I came up with my own term: "Asymmetric attachment injury" — in the sense that the caregiver's dysregulation forced attachment-based parentification (a role reversal) onto the child, with the child's fawning emerging as a trauma response that stabilized the caregiver at the child's developmental expense -9 basically self-erasure in my case.

This is mind expanding! This made me think of how most of us come to this healing work as adults and are taught to view our relationship to our parents as adult to adult, but what you've so beautifully written speaks to the imbalanced position between parent and child that gets lost once we turn adults. I'm going to sit with this some more. Thank you!

I also feel seen when you mentioned the feelings of guilt and loneliness. I often feel so odd in feeling the way I do and feel comforted to see another person feeling similarly. I feel less alone. Thank you!

[NarcKiddo]

And it doesn't help that I understand that she's not being malicious.

No, it doesn't. My M absolutely can be malicious, though even then I don't think she would see it that way. Most of the time she is simply putting herself first in a very toxic way. There's no room for anyone else with her. Her own mother was an abomination. My M speaks very carefully of her own history but what I have heard is grim. As you so rightly said, though, "that's not my fault".

I'm sorry your reconnection with your cousin hit a bump in the road. You did the kind and human thing but it's totally understandable you are now treading carefully so as not to get engulfed into another one-sided relationship. There's nothing wrong with that. Once the cousin gets steadier maybe the relationship can progress.

I hope you have a restful weekend and week, so you can nurture yourself.

[zen_racer]

Nori, I relate to a lot of what you wrote.  I even relate a little bit with what you wrote about your mother.  For a couple years since my move, I was paralyzed about doing anything for my life.  I think it took getting really sick before I got past the paralysis.  Life had kind of gotten to where everything was overwhelming, so I just kind of shut down.  But I could survive, so the shutdown continued until I couldn't survive anymore.

My two biggest cptsd behaviors are freezing and fawning, and learning that I couldn't give away 100% of myself to help others was a very hard lesson to learn.  I think I still tend to do so.  It's great that you started working on your own project.  That's a win.  So is being able to express emotions, and feel compassion for little self.

It does sound like you're going through a lot.  I also relate to thinking that what my mother said doesn't sound that bad.  At least in my case, if it was an occasional response about something she particularly had a lot of experience or knew a lot about, it would even make sense.  But the damage comes from how she's negative and responds every single time as if I couldn't possibly understand anything about what I'm doing or what I said.  Somehow, it's even triggering about how she's so consistently automatically negative towards me.  Sometimes mine is not malicious.  But that doesn't help me knowing that because sometimes she is 1000% malicious.

I'm sorry that the relationship with your cousin isn't what you were hoping.  I'd be a little skeptical too.  I think it's good that you're starting a week with less external demands and focusing on yourself.  Taking care of yourself doesn't make you selfish.  That's a thing I have an issue with, anyway.

We aren't alone.   

[HannahOne]

Nori, the need for emotional attunement is essential for human beings. For all mammals, really, that are herd animals. We're herd/tribe animals. Animals that live in groups or herds attune to survive. When one horse starts to run, they all run---without evaluating, thinking, planning. How does a herd of running horses all move together? Attunement, physiological attunement, and emotions are physiological. You need and deserve emotional attunement and I am so, so sorry your mother did not provide it as she should have, moment by moment, day after day, year after year over the course of your growing up. Maybe your mother wasn't "that bad," but she doesn't need to be that bad to not have been what you needed, deserved, and still need now. Emotional neglect is real.