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i agree about the cycles - they will come and go, but, i've found that as i continue in recovery, the cycles come around less often, and for a shorter period of time.

just a thought on the whole idea of the x fooling others:  i've struggled with that for about 6 months, and it rips me up sometimes.  my ex-husband narc has been fooling people forever.  well, me included.  a few years ago i discovered he was also a misogynist, that my daughter told him so. he and i (we were still in contact then) were talking about it, said he took it to the female therapist he'd been seeing. she told him no way, he'd been her client for a year and a half, she'd know if he was a woman-hater.  then he said to me 'i'm a really good liar'.

and, i think that sums it up for the narcs of the world - they are really good liars.  they know just what sorts of things to say and do that put them in a good light for the outside world, and even for those who know them more intimately, like a therapist.  since many, if not most, therapists don't know the true nature of npd (i've been a therapist for 25 yrs., didn't really know the ins and outs of it till it all hit me in the face in my personal life like a ton of bricks!   we sure weren't taught much, if anything, about this personality disorder, just a general 'self-absorbed, wants attention' kind of thing.), they can be easily fooled through no fault of their own.  as we bring this to their attention, i believe the more motivated and caring therapists will rise to the occasion and do some investigating.  and tell their colleagues.  just like with c-ptsd.  i had to explain the difference between this and regular ptsd to my own therapist just a few days ago - she's young and green, and there's no diagnosis for c-ptsd in the therapist's bible - the dsm.  so, she had nothing else to go on.  but she listened, and i think she learned. 

so, sienna, hang tough.  i know it sounds trite, but sometimes it's all we have.  just know that on this forum you are being heard and understood because we're going through much the same things, or have similar experiences.  and, i give you credit for venting it out here, even when you're feeling like no one is reading/listening.  yes, we are.  sometimes we're also going through something tough, and are hanging on by our fingernails as well, and just don't have the energy to deal with what someone else is going through.  but, that doesn't mean we're not still here.   we are. 

one thought that helped get me through the 'it's so unfair' thinking was about rape victims, and how often their perpetrators have gotten away with that violation, gone home to friends and family who would never guess what s/he was capable of.  and, i thought to myself, these victims have had to find a way to deal with a lack of justice or retribution, and if they can do it, then, by god, so can i.  i don't know if that helps you, i don't know where it came from, but i do know that since that thought swam through my head, my yearning for justice, fairness, and retribution diminished.  i thought i'd share in case it might help you.  best to you.  you're not alone.

why don't you just snap out of it and grow up?  maybe it's cuz you're stuck in an emotional place of immaturity.  i don't mean that to sound like a bad thing.  for example, often times, when we're traumatized, we get stuck at that spot in our emotional age, and continue to repeat the thoughts and feelings that were happening at the time.   we continue to grow physically, but the traumatic situation keeps us stuck, and as we age, we operate in an adult body that contains the emotional maturity of the child who was hurt.  does that make sense?  in my own life, part of my trauma happened at around 13, when i turned to my parents for emotional support and comfort, and they had none to give.  from that time on, until just recently (i'm in my 60's!) i operated from that 13-yr. old place of believing i only had myself to depend on to take care of me, emotionally, and that's where my focus went.  as a result, i had little consideration for the feelings of others, had little compassion for their emotional pain.  my thoughts were that we all need to take care of ourselves emotionally, and i was extremely careless with the emotions of others (at the same time i was a total people pleaser, giving out compliments, wanting people to like me so i would have someone there if i truly needed someone.  it was a weird cycle.)   i'd been told i was arrogant, intimidating,  and without compassion on more than one occasion.  but, it was all a defense mechanism that i'd adopted as that 13-yr. old, a self-protective way of dealing with the world. 

part of what is helping me break that cycle and grow up emotionally (after i finally realized what was going on) has been inner child work.  my parents are dead, so i can't talk to them about it.  but, i write about it, speak to my little girl, assure her that the adult me who has accomplished so much in my life (as i'm sure you have - driving, paying bills, keeping a checkbook, having a job, (examples) - all those adult things you've accomplished that a child would not be able to do) will now take care of her, will be there for her, will not abandon her or send her away.  in short, i tell her all the things i needed for my parents to tell me, and it's been helping quite a bit.  (someone had suggested this to me, and i'm so grateful.) 

but, no, i haven't snapped out of it.  growing up is a process, and takes time, patience, and mistakes.  and, it sounds like doing something physical has been helping.  keep up the good work!  just my thoughts, of course.  good luck with the new shrink.  i do hope there is no conflict there w/ your therapist.  and congrats on calling for the appt., even w/ your aversion to phones.  that took a lot of guts!  it sounds to me like you're moving forward, step by step.  every step is progress (even if it's a step back.  those are learning opportunities.), so every step counts.  best to you! 

i understand about the connection between your therapist and shrink.  that makes sense.

i think it's always important to remember that just because one therapist/shrink fits for others, doesn't mean s/he will fit for you.  as long as you can remember that, it doesn't matter what your therapist might think.   and, if that is a true issue for you, you can always bring it up in your next session, talk about it, explore it, and, hopefully, you'll get some resolution.

why are you hesitating about making the appt. w/ the new shrink?  cuz it wasn't the one you were hoping for?  or because it's someone new in a general way?  as you said, the first appt. is usually not very deep, mostly a getting-to-know-you kind of session, and, exactly as you said, how you're doing, how your meds are working. 

i think you're doing well to stay away from the mind-reading as much as possible.  i have a tendency to run entire make-believe conversations in my head when i'm anxious, and almost always discover that anything that was in my head never came out in the reality of what i had been projecting.  it was my way of protecting myself (i thought!), trying to be prepared so that i felt like i had some control over the situation.  what i know now is that whatever comes up, i'll be able to deal with it.  that has helped put my anxiety to rest on many occasions.   i would guess that you'll be able to deal with whatever you need to deal with as well.  it may not always be clean and clear - sometimes it can be quite messy - but we deal with what comes along and get to the other side eventually.

making these kinds of changes can be challenging.  i think you're doing a good job.  when you're ready, you'll make the appt. and take it from there.    best to you on this!   i hope the new shrink is helpful and kind and professional.

you're quite welcome.  i would've jumped, too, if a man appeared at the window during one of my sessions.  holy crap!

so glad you got together with your anxiety in a beneficial way!  yay!!!    gotta love that brain and body wisdom! 

sometimes, we need to walk into the back door for easier access to where we want to be.  the idea of feeling safe is fundamental to us, second only to shelter, food, air, and water as a basic need.  if you have felt unsafe most of your life, it doesn't seem odd to me that you wouldn't recognize safety issues.  how can one recognize something that hasn't been known or addressed?  i'd hazard a guess that your instincts are alive and well, but have been buried under abuse, manipulation, expectations, and the like.  i believe that as you continue your self-exploration, you'll eventually find them and be able to trust them again.  we all trusted our instincts as babies, because we knew exactly what we needed to survive and thrive.  they never leave us, just become hidden over time.  but, they're there, and always will be.  and as we get to know our true selves better, we find those instincts simply waiting for us to discover them again.  i believe you'll get there.

as far as a safe place goes, i have a friend who wrestled with this concept as well.  one day she thought of a road trip she and i took in a van for 2 weeks, drove to the west coast, down to mexico, and back.   needless to say, it was one of the best times of our lives, but it took on an even deeper meaning for her.  it was in that van while we were on the open road that she felt joy, happiness, and a sense of freedom for the first time in her life (she was nearly 40).  as the thought of that trip in that van enveloped her that day, she knew then that her safe place was in that van, because she knew that whatever might happen on the road, we would deal with it.  it was quite the revelation for her.  from then on, when she needed to think of a safe place, she thought of the van.  so, safe place can mean anything to anyone.  you'll find yours. 

i love the idea of snailspace.  that's exactly what it feels like at times.   i'm glad something of what i wrote helped you encounter a realization.  back doors are just as valid as front doors (meaning, sometimes we don't get the understanding we want when he go at something head on, but even if we get it by going in at an angle or from a different direction, it's still an understanding, and that's what counts).    keep taking care of you.  you are precious and important.

by the by, the therapist i have now is young and green, but she's been helpful, and with this forum and my own proactive work on various issues, i feel like i'm making progrss.  thanks.  best to you, too.

i think the bottom line is if you feel safe.  if you don't feel safe, emotionally or physically, for any reason, it's going to be difficult to trust.  and, without trust there is little chance of having a successful therapeutic relationship.  the choice, of course, is ultimately yours.  you are the only one who knows what 'safe' means to you, or if you even want to make that a consideration.  for some people, unsafe has been a way of life for so long that they can't really differentiate, and don't really know unless someone outside of themselves points it out. 

leaving notes on the floor?  what about confidentiality?  and, not cleaning up after a client before the next client comes in?  i'd be questioning her professionalism, too.  concerns about the safety of your car?  well, that's a real thing as well.  but, that's up to you as to how much of a concern it is for you.  sometimes a therapist can be a diamond in the rough, so to speak.  if you're getting excellent treatment, maybe some of the other things aren't that big of a deal in the big picture.  but, it seems like you've already made the decision based on your concerns.  picky?  can we ever be too picky when it comes to our self-worth or mental health and well-being? 

thanks for your support.  finding a good fit with a therapist is experimental at best, hit and miss at times.  in the end, you are the only one who knows what fits for you.  too many 'miss-fits' with a therapist can, i do believe, color the relationship, and ultimately the treatment you receive.  anxiety, mistrust, concern, and any other misgivings,  can only get in the way of the therapeutic relationship, which, in turn, overshadows the amount and quality of the progress you are going to make.  my thoughts only, of course. 

to tell you the truth, it's difficult to be able to tell why this therapeutic experience seems so topsy-turvy to you.  again, i don't think it's you, but what is this therapist doing that makes it seem that way for you?  is she going back and forth between behaviors, some of them welcoming, some of them distancing?  and, yawning (unless she immediately apologized because she was up all night or something) in a session seems just rude to me.  i'm not surprised you have a soft spot for her - she may be reminding you of someone in your life, or a relationship you've had with someone else.   like i said, i understand difficult sessions, but with a competent therapist i never took it personally, never doubted my 'self', as it were.  those times were simply fraught with emotion, painful memories and the like.   and the therapist would reassure me that i was working hard, that getting to the bottom of this stuff is difficult, even painful, at times, but that i could give myself credit for sticking with it, for going through it, or for being courageous enough to even look at the issues.   there may be something here to think about for you, something that might ring true.  or maybe not.  just my thoughts.  i know you're struggling with this, and i also know you'll do what's best for you, whether it be staying or leaving.  it's your journey.   take care of you first, always.

it already has.  i've been talking to my little me all day, and it feels so good.  angels do walk the earth, i'm convinced of that, and they're there when we need them.  thanks again.  it's a good start.

finding the right fit with a therapist can be a hit and miss kind of thing.   just know that it's not you.  and, it may not be the therapist, either.   i agree with arpy1 on that.  but, it seems that you have a lot of doubts and misgivings about this therapist, and that, right there, is a red flag to me. 

i had an awful experience with my first therapist, on many levels, but one that stood out was the idea you mentioned about not feeling good after a session.  not feeling good about yourself?  i don't think that's a good thing.  not feeling good about the way the therapist responded?  not feeling good about how the session went?  also, i don't think those are good things.  to my mind, a therapist should always find a way to help and encourage a client to feel good about him/herself, no matter how difficult the session itself might have been.  we're all going to have difficult sessions at times, when we're confronted with ourselves, our own responsibilities in a relationship, (no, i'm not blaming the victim here, just that we must always look at if or how we might have done things differently in the past, and what we need to change for the future) and/or we went through a sensitive subject that brought our emotions to the fore.   still, no matter what the content of the session, i do believe that the client's well-being comes first.   if nothing else, you show great courage and strength in asking for help, and you deserve the best help you can get.

there are lots of therapists who are very aware of this dynamic, and work hard to provide it for their clients.   i think there is nothing wrong with wanting a therapist who gives that to you, so there is nothing wrong with looking for a different therapist when you don't get it where you are.   it's difficult to have to change therapists, i know, but i also know that when you have one with whom you have a good fit, it makes all the difference in the world.  best to you, sienna. 

thanks, kizzie.  i never even thought of that.  but getting in touch w/ my little girl seems right.  i'm crying as i write this, so i know it struck a chord.  i'm going to start with her, find out more about her, and go exploring with her.  you and your experience were just what i needed when i needed it. 

after doing research on my c-ptsd, i found a list of treatment goals that made sense to me.  the first one was to feel safe, and i have taken steps to do so, and am ready to move ahead.

the second step is self-regulation of my emotions.  this has been an ongoing problem that seems to have gotten worse as time goes by.  i have a difficult time feeling loved, even though, logically, i know i am from a number of sources, including husband, friends, and daughter.  just can't feel it!  have i somehow frozen in this area?  another issue i have is that i'm not in touch with my anger in the present - it often takes me 2 or 3 days after an incident/situation before i realize and can feel how angry i am about it.  and, thirdly, i cry at the drop of a hat.  this began in childhood, i've always been sensitive to the pain of others, especially children, but in a detached way.  for instance, i can't watch movies or tv shows about the holocaust, slavery, torture, the native american tragedy - anything that i believe is fundamentally wrong and uncalled for concerning what one person has done/can do to another that causes such intrinsic pain of mind, body, and soul. 

but i also cry at happy things, such as a kindness being done (again, in reality or on the screen, the feeling is overwhelming to me) or at expressions of love.   i can't even speak of such things without bursting into tears and having to gather myself together in order to finish the sentence.  when i was a child, i remember bursting into tears every time i displeased my dad (who i thought to be like god), and his response would be something to the effect that 'here go the waterworks again'.  i was teased as a child, both by him and by sibs and friends about my crying so much that i eventually stopped crying around the age of 14, (like i built a concrete bunker around me), or avoided situations where i might cry (like singing hymns about how much god loved me),  didn't begin again until i started in therapy at age 38.  now i'm 68, have been crying for 30 years at scenes and situations, and i don't know how to stop!  the concrete has crumbled, and there is so much that i cry at that avoidance is impossible.

i'm seeing a therapist who is barely out of school (i live in a very small town) and she's had no experience with trauma work, so i do a lot of research, print out the info in order to give it to her, so she has a clue as to what's going on with me.  but, on this issue, i'm stuck.  i don't know what to tell her, how to go about getting some semblance of emotional control back, both by being able to feel emotions, and being able to control these tears that come at the slightest provocation.  i am a therapist myself, but i don't know how to treat me!       any feedback is appreciated. 

i, myself, am a therapist, so this may seem ironic on some level, but in my mind, any therapist who's any good puts the well-being of the client first, no matter what the subject matter, including other therapists!   i have had a similar experience in my past, was able to talk to a counselor about a therapist i had recently 'broken up' with after 8 years - it was an extremely incestual therapeutic relationship - and she was able to validate my feelings for me, which really felt good, even told me that she'd heard the same kinds of things from other former clients of that therapist.  i left that session relieved.

as to the idea of anxiety with a therapist, it could very well be the idea of 'being seen', which i would imagine to be very scary.  from what you wrote, your reaction upon leaving the therapist's office, crying, but holding it back until you were done with the session, could be a topic to explore in another session.   if you are believing that therapist #3 is a good fit, that could also be scary.  you haven't had many 'good' fits, and this would be something new; again, scary.  that fear is the anxiety you're feeling.

as an adjunct, i did eventually report that therapist to the state board authority.  unfortunately, the rules for a therapist having multiple roles in a client's life (we were best friends at the same time she was doing therapy with both me and my husband, singly and as a couple, and i worked for her for several years - major ethical breaches) hadn't been formalized until 2 years after my experience, so there was no action that could be taken.  however, they did write me that she was, indeed, in the wrong, and, again, i felt validated.  that is such a terrific feeling, even though she continued to practice.  last i heard, though, was that she had moved back to her home country.  i don't know if she is still doing therapy, but i like to think that my reporting of her may have had some influence on her leaving.  and, good riddance! 

so, i believe reporting unethical therapists is important, but also that you do it when you're ready.  it took me 8 years to work through the anxiety, anger, fear, depression, etc., to the point where i was strong enough to do so.  i understand you have a time limit of 3 years.   i completely support you, and hopefully, through this group and other resources, you are able to find what you need to be able to act within that time frame.  best to you!   

hey, dutch uncle,

i truly appreciate your feedback.  altho i know that i won't get amends, and i don't expect any, i still feel like sending it.  again, i got quite specific with what i felt/believed/knew he did to me in the relationship, and, even if it doesn't sink into his skull at all, i'm still wanting him to know that i know.  this has been hidden, subtle, under-the-table abuse, so to speak, and it feels like bringing it into the open is therapeutic for me.  but, that's the part i'm confused about.  altho it would feel therapeutic to me, is it really that, or just wanting to hold the mirror up to his face, finally!  not that i believe for a minute that he'd acknowledge most of it, he's very good at lying to himself as well as others, and very good at denying and defending his behaviors.  he had a female therapist of his, who worked with him for a year and a half, absolutely appalled when he told her that he'd been called a misogynist.  when he told me this, he also added that 'i'm a very good liar.'  so, it's like i'd actually be the one to tell him the truth about himself.  is that my job?  maybe not, but i've covered for him all these years, and it would feel so good to just be open about it.  any thoughts?

i have just come off a 3-month emotional crisis that was triggered by the anniversary of a highly abusive situation (perpetrated by both my daughter and my ex - her dad) which ended with me cutting contact with both of them.  hers was very straight up - don't contact me until you want to have a respectful, caring, adult relationship with me.  his was a bit more wishy-washy.  i responded to an email of his last oct., but never really told him i wanted no contact.  now, i have blocked his emails, and feel compelled to tell him this (courtesy), but i also want to tell him that he owes me apologies for what went on during our 30 yr. relationship, and listed what i want apologies for.  he's been very good at 'apologizing' in the past, but they always took the form of 'i'm sorry you feel like that'  when i would tell him that an action of his hurt me, etc.  in this current email, i told him that i deserve apologies that show that he owns his behaviors, admits they were wrong, and is able to give me a heartfelt apology for each.  i don't expect anything will come of it, but it felt good to write it down.  my question is:  is this just another way of staying connected?   is this a therapeutic cleansing for me regardless of what he does with it? (i will be talking to my therapist about this as well, but i thought maybe someone had gone thru something similar) is this just part of the obsessive c-ptsd dynamic?  (my therapist doesn't know much about c-ptsd, but in this small town, she's all that's available).  since this latest crisis has passed, i feel stronger and wanting to take back control of my life.  i don't know if writing this to him is me finally being able to tell him like it is (which i've never been able to do before) and putting the crap that has been inside me back where it belongs, or if it is just one more manifestation of negative  c-ptsd behavior.  any and all opinions welcome.  i'm working really hard on getting and digesting feedback instead of just pressing the 'send' button.  it's like i want him to know that i finally know what he's done, and that i deserve amends.   color me confused.

it's a process, isn't it, to figure out what's best for our own selves, especially in the beginning.  it sounds like you've come to some self-loving conclusions on what to do.  happily, as we progress, as we stay out of our own way, the entire process becomes easier.  we see what's happening more quickly, we know more surely how to respond, and we remember to take care of ourselves first and foremost.  your physical messages re: what would be stressful to do, what would be more beneficial for you to do sound loud and clear, and the fact that you're listening to them speaks volumes about your progress with this matter.  keep taking care of yourself.