dollyvee's recovery journal

[dollyvee]

Thanks M&H - I never used to mention how my dad died because it was more about managing someone's reaction to suicide than about the death for me, but this has started to change. I'm learning that some people are more genetically predisposed to suicide and that other physical conditions (presence of mycotoxins in the body) can lead to suicidal thoughts. I'm sorry that you had to go through that too, you deserve to have your own life and be loved for who you are.

Thanks PC - I did venture outside the box and didn't do the job they wanted me to but not without the constant dialogue/fear of them in my head about my choices and/or what was going to happen to me because of them. Your point is reminding me about the reading I did on genetics and how when I came across MAO A  characteristics (they did studies on MAO A and antisocial behaviour/aggression and founda correlation), I thought that sounds exactly like my mom. So, we can be predisposed to these things.

I want to say too that you are 100% not in anyway responsible for her behaviours and don't have to give her the benefit of the doubt (biggest enabling sentence as Dr. Ramani said). Maybe you were made into the scapegoat by your family and they tried to teach you you were responsible? Given what you know about your f being a vulnerable narcissist, it could be that she learned these behaviours from him, but it only further illustrates that the rest of you made the choice not to, and she is responsible for her actions. I'm realizing how difficult I find mental separation to be from people. It's like I have to take things on and it becomes very difficult when it is bad behaviour that I feel I have to be responsible for.

That's good to remember that I can't find the next level without some emotional discomfort 

Thanks Crackedice - it's difficult to sort through the feelings related to FOO. I have a really good thinking part as well that likes to keep things compartmentalized. My therapist has brought it up over the years that this is how children are wired. We take on all that stuff from our parents and try to make it right, or blame ourselves etc, because we need them to feel safe. That's just natural for children.

Thank you Hope - I wish you all the best for 2023 as well 

Will take a break from sort of writing a part III about how I can see my truth telling, or semi-thwarted TT, role playing out now in work/relationships. I came across a couple of bits that are maybe helping me make sense of how I'm being in the world.

Borrowing this from another forum where she says she was raised by an nmom who was her first "hater" who "did everything possible to give [her] a distorted view of herself  because [she had] everything she wanted and was a constant trigger to her narcissistic injury. [Nmom]'s goal was to suppress [her] so she could feel above [her]...[nmom] saw herself as a victim at that time and was extremely jealous of anyone who had the things she wanted. [Nmom] saw herself as a victim and lived in survival mode, she had zero goals and made no effort to change or grow."

She goes on to say that because she was used to this kind of relationship, she found many people who were either narcissists or just insecure, who were totally silent on all of her good traits, talents, looks, anything good, which confirmed her self doubt.

The point that also really stood out for me was that another important trick that these people use is that you can't confront them for their comments because it is always something petty that will make you look petty for bringing it up. Bingo. I think of this as passive-aggressiveness sometimes or provocation. People often have a very good idea of what they're doing to try and get a reaction out of you. I feel that this is what comes up at the gym for example. I was always quite confident (was picked to go to leadership conferences as a child) but I often feel like this is a threat to people and they feel the need to take me down a peg or two. I know how hard I've worked and what I can do, that I can "back it up" but it feels like unnecessary competition a lot of the times and am just insufficiently dancing around other peoples' insecurities.

This brings me to the second thing that came up that really blew my mind this morning - the needing to show them that they didn't win. For example, I don't want to engage in the pettiness mentioned above and always try to ignore it but also the part that needs to show them they didn't win, they can't hurt me etc comes up. I also begin to think that these are "bad" people, but insecure, self-centred people can have empathy and aren't necessarily narcs. I think that recognizing there are a lot of narcissistic behaviours out there, which then can activate this part feels like a big understanding. I know I often feel (at least growing up) that other people must know better than me, they must have the same outlook, same heart, and give them the benefit of the doubt when it isn't necessarily true. I don't know these people. Why do I need to do that? I know I've been really open with people to find them do something hurtful and then I think I switch into the, " you didn't win, you didn't hurt me" mode which isn't coming from the adult me or necessarily helpful I think.

I received a text from sgf last night that started with Happy New Year and the celebration emoji followed by I changed my will and my nephew is getting everything. I have to laugh at the pettiness. There's also grief at the crappiness of my family and not having that loving family but I don't think I feel that bad about it. It's also a freedom.

[CrackedIce]

Hoo boy, a lot of your last few paragraphs really resonated with me.  I feel like a lot of my teenage years were spent living "in spite" of my parents and others.  I did things well / got good grades / was good at extracurriculars and kept it all away from my parents - in my head, they didn't have any right to take part in those successes or claim credit for those victories, because they didn't support me at all through them.  This was after several years of abuse / neglect, but it likely also created a self-perpetuating cycle - I didn't talk to them, so they didn't talk to me.  I eventually left my FOO and 'grew up', but I think all that pettiness (which was likely a way of acting out my built up rage against them) diminished the value of those successes for myself as well - I didn't do them for me, I did them to prove others wrong.  Not a good motivation it turns out.

Bleh, that text message is aggravating as well.  Every once in awhile I catch wind of something my FOO has done and it serves as a gentle reminder that I'm better off having left, but as you said it also has that small afterthought of grief attached to it.

[dollyvee]

Thanks Crackedice -
I just want to say that even though you were a teenager, I don't think it's on you for how you behaved with your family. It sounds like there was a good reason for you to do the things you did and at that point the parent should be the adult and step up. But I also understand that rational side that probably recognizes your m had you very young and didn't have the emotional maturity etc to deal with things or whatever, but abuse is abuse and I think you were standing up for yourself too when no one else did. I think it's hard not to blame yourself when your parent treats you like that though, or isn't there for you. It's what we're wired to do.

I'm mulling over your comments. It's hard because I know the adult me can see the pettiness in the behaviour and keeps wishing people would grow up or there's just no need to respond like that, and acting "butt hurt" when people behave in a certain way is not justifiable for me as an adult. The sticking point for me is that I know where that behaviour is coming from, and the 7/8 year old me had to deal with some very petty, immature, selfish etc people who behaved that way to her and was doing the only thing she knew at the time to survive when there was no one (except for my dad in a way) that was on her side or do it for her. It's hard to let that go when it still seems to be cropping up everywhere. I think doing more work around the idea of the truth teller will hopefully help let it go? I wouldn't say it's my pure motivation for doing things ie I want to show them (well probably with my stepfather) but I do feel it keeps me in emotional entaglements (at least internally) with other, not even significant people in my life, when it happens because it feels like a threat to my (psychic) safety. I guess because I never really had the opportunity to "just walk away" from my sf's behaviour growing up? I don't know.

After I decided to leave my m and sf and live with my dad, my sf told me I wasn't allowed to take any of my belongings/toys with me, pretty devastating for an eight year old. My gf was angry about it because he had bought me a TV and I couldn't take it. Looking back now through the lens of gf's narcissism, I can see that it wasn't really about me. It was about something he bought which is why he was angry. He didn't do anything when he knew that sf was making me run etc. I went from standing up for myself into punishment from sf and then prolonged punishment from m for abandoning her.

The text message is just another reminder of the petty behaviour on that side of the family and yeah I do feel like oh, I didn't call for Christmas, I didn't word the other text message in the best way etc and I have to stop myself. When I went back for Christmas last year I told him I didn't want or expect anything. I went for the real purpose to be there and help out after my gm's death. I had been talking to him every week/couple of weeks trying to help from a distance, offering to pay for hhome care for my gm etc, and going back at Christmas felt like being sideswiped. There was no real interest in me or that connection. Not to mention basically stealing from me and I'm done with it. I don't want to be involved with people like that any more. I don't care if they're family. It just makes me feel like I'm the one being the jerk (want to use a stronger word here) in the family. It feels so hard to think you're not that person.

Interesting that I'm just remembering how fixated on money my gm's brother is and how he tried to do the same thing with her that my brother did with me - swindle me out of the inheritance. I think I've recognized this before but forgot about it. Interesting that it's a pattern in the family.

I've started reading The Narcissism Epidemic and it's very good but there was something that stuck out that felt so validating right now. I've been living overseas for the last 15 years and sometimes I find a lot of cultural differences that feel very challenging with regards to how people behave to each other. Of course I thought this is me, there must be something wrong with me. What is starting to click is the idea of cultural narcissism, that there are things which are maybe cultural - passive-aggressiveness, sense of entitlement, focus on status, not showing empathy, celebrity worship which are also narcissistic behaviours. It's not that everyone is a narcissist but I think maybe dealing with these traits as someone growing up in a narcissistic family can be triggering. I don't mean this to be offensive, these are just my experiences.

In the book, the author talks about being in a remote northern town in BC and the teenage boy of the family was telling everyone at dinner that he made a remarkable shot at a distance. The author told the boy was in the US, he could probably make a video, upload it to youtube with some flashy music and become famous. The mother responded that where they live, they judge people on their character and what they have accomplished and for the boy not to brag. I don't care if sounds like Little House on The Prairie, I had to let out a sigh because I think that's similar to my dad's side of the family and how I grew up in BC. If you are going to boast people will come after you to make sure that you're "real."

[Armee]

Hi Dolly,

I just want to reaffirm the text message and sentiment in it is not your fault. I'm sorry so many of your family members are manipulative, petty, and abusive. It's impossible to navigate those dynamics with just one family member, let alone many of them. I am also so sorry about the circumstances surrounding your father's suicide. I had not realized before that you had been living with him and the trauma from that alone without all the other traumas from your family....it's a lot for you to have gone through.

[dollyvee]

Hi Armee - thank you for your message. It was a lot to go through.

I had a chance to step outside the CPTSD "car" yesterday and just see how much of a trauma response I've had to someone when there didn't necessarily need to be a trauma response. Thank you microdosing (I think it helped in addition to the other work I've been doing). It's not "just" dating and that dating is "hard," I think it's a pattern of self-sabotage and undermining relationships that I don't get to see the other side of it very often. So, I'm hoping I can continue this.

I was reading about trauma bonding in relationships yesterday and it hit me (again) that this is what was happening. This person is pretty consistent I think and in my mind I'm looking for or creating the inconsistency. This person reacted this way so it must mean that he's not interested, or I'm x (not good enough, attractive insert whatever), or whatever other negative doomsday scenario I can think of. This is me reacting from a trauma place and it's exhausting to me and not fair to this person. It's just interesting how quickly I can step into this and not realize what's happening. For me, as long as I keep people at a distance, it's fine but when I start to feel something for someone, it's like all this stuff comes out. Slow down? Are you kidding? Full steam ahead into this anticipation, fantasy, whatever you call it. I think it's the power of expectations, which I think are a relationship killer.

I think I'm realizing that allowing the space for things to come up brings up some very difficult emotions that I've kept locked down because it was probably necessary for me to do that. Realizing now that it's been me fighting for survival since I was 8 (I'm sure it was much younger but I think the dynamic of me leaving set up some expectations/situations around relationships and feeling like I'd done something "wrong" at that age) and just focusing on having to make it in the world shut out a lot of things. It's hard to trust people and that there's not going to be a retaliation or humiliation, or that I'm not going to blow up my life by being vulnerable and showing someone who I am. I guess I have to trust in myself that even if other people don't see what I'm doing, or why I'm doing it, I can still love myself, and that just because no one in my family saw at that time what I was doing was standing up for myself, doesn't mean that I was ugly or stupid or how could anyone like me etc. Unfortunately, it's this stew of negativity that's been coming out around this person when there is a perceived rejection etc, but I also realized that I'm replaying the same dance I did with my mom. It's like I also expect guys to be competitive with me, or that I can't have my freedom, like what happened with my stepfather, or that behaviour in them (which I think a lot of guys have?) is triggering to me.

I think this is what happened before with the collegue at work and why I had such a strong reaction to it, or when people want to be close, I just kind of shut down. The idea of how to explain these things to people confounds me. I guess because I felt like I had to explain it all away because I did something wrong and I had to make it better, which is also an extension of the family dynamic - make them understand you and they will come around; if you just explain it right/whatever then you can get through to them and they will love you. Maybe this is "overloving?" I am also learning about emotional dumping and how you can only give people maybe a thing at a time to see how they react, and that ultimately, this stuff is mine to hold onto and work through. Does it suck that it might prevent me from having something nice with someone that seems really lovely? Yes it does. I can't put all this stuff on someone else. Does it mean that I can't set boundaries about what I need and what will work for me while I work through it? No.

I think there's another layer too and that somehow this was the sword I had to die on, or put all my hopes for a better relationship on? One of the things my gm told me was that men can't be trusted and they're going to do this and this and this to you. I've definitely met some guys that would but a video by Dr. Ramani, where she explains that your narcissistic family will tell you that "blood is thicker than water," and for me, at the end of the day, it's always your family that will be there for you, helped reframe it that I was believing an idea that was created so that they would always have access to me; maybe it wasn't good for my gm if I trusted a guy and had my own life, and the me who needed the security of the "family" took this idea on. I was also always looking for ways in which they acted that would show what my gm was saying was true. I think now that I've started to let that go and set boundaries, the other stuff, locked feelings around humiliation etc, has a space to come up now.

Your narcissistic family tells you this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqK2zHZrJFU

[CrackedIce]

Hey Dollyvee, just wanted to reach out and empathize with your last post.  A lot of what you typed really resonated with me.   I spend a lot of time in my head, particularly after my wife does something unexpected or offensive, thinking of all the reasons she doesn't want me or I did something wrong or I'm unwanted, etc.  If we ever do talk about it and clarify what happened, it's almost always a misunderstanding by one or the other (or both) of us and never as big of a deal as I make it out in my mind.  Yet it happens time and time again.

I hate saying it because it seems so simple yet so difficult to do, but communication usually is the key (for my relationships anyways).  My couples' therapist would be so proud   I've been trying to make a concerted effort as of late to get out of my head as soon as possible (as soon as I recognize I'm in a shame spiral or even when I'm starting to misinterpret things) and say it out loud.  Even if the initial reaction is negative, it has almost always been better to talk it out than to let it stew internally for hours and then have a much worse conversation later.

Not sure if any of this applies to your situation or not, just thought I'd share my two cents   Hope you have a good week!

[dollyvee]

Thanks CI - I think there's a big component of if I communicate about it, then that makes it real and I have to deal with yucky reality, which basically means those bad feelings come up. It's a very persistent pattern of thinking something is a certain way (ideal) and do anything to have that ideal because that's what means security (or whatever) etc. I guess the reality has always been that no one is ever really there for me when I get close (or that's what I feel), but I'm trying to change this thinking and that maybe one day it will be different.

I saw this pattern in an IFS once and could see that it went back to my m and gm. I guess this is the part where it shows up in me but I'm not entirely sure how to deal with this?
________
I started thinking about my dad today and how thankful I am that he was the way he was. I think he was probably my secure attachment figure which helped me make it out even though he had a lot of his own stuff going on. I saw a post by the Holistic Psychologist, and even though I don't resonate with everything she says, she had a good list of the ways mature parents will show up for their kids. My dad tried to do a lot of these things - explain that it wasn't anything to do with me when he lost his temper/that he still loved me; when I didn't get the grades I wanted he let me know that he understood and it was ok with him (he let me make my mistakes and didn't have crazy expectations), I think there were boundaries around what he spoke to me about, that there was a parent/child dynamic. There was also a freedom and a trust there. I don't know if it's hard to focus on these things because of how he died or not.

I started looking into suicide and how Tibetan Buddhists view it. I mean, it's not great. Basically, it is believed that you won't be born into human form again, but in the realm of "hungry ghosts." Hungry ghosts are the things within us that keep us addicted, sort of a bondage to the material world (as I understand it) and they are never satiated. It didn't help that the people who moved into the house after my dad died told me that they would hear knocking and noises, and they believed that it was the ghost of my dad. I had a few choice words yesterday for those people, telling those things to a fourteen year old who just lost her father that way. I did know their son and did a lot of babysitting for him (and was our neighbour which is why they bought the house in the first place), so I don't imagine it was said lightly.

I also learned that Akshobhya is one of the five medicine buddhas "responsible" or associated with practices when suicide comes up in the Vajarana tradition. He is the immovable one like the calm depths of the ocean, even when there is a storm on top, and shows things as they really are, not what is illusion. He also symbolizes the transmuted energy of anger and aggression into wisdom and enlightenment. My dad had a lot of anger issues throughout his life and it makes sense that this Buddha comes up. Though, I think it's more complicated.

I've never processed my dad's death in a way that was, he was in a lot of pain and he chose to get out of that pain. It just never seemed to fit and this wasn't the dad I knew and I don't think it was something that he kept hidden from me. At the time, my aunt spoke with his psychiatrist who said that taking prozac can sometimes elevate peoples' emotions to doing something they wouldn't otherwise do. Ok, so it was the medication that propelled it, but it also didn't seem to quite click. It was only after reading about the association of mycotoxins and suicide ideation, and knowing what my dad was exposed to renovating the basement, that it clicked. I think there are a lot of biological factors that influence our neurotransmittors etc. and our outlooks on/feelings towards life. Are genetics an expression of karma? Possibly. How does disease/genetic susceptibility play into the factors that determine our afterlife etc? i don't know. I think this is why it is difficult to talk about suicide. I don't think it's just the horrifying pain that everyone fears or thinks happened. Though, on the other side, it is just an incredible loss.

It's really interesting to me that the idea of illusion (or an ideal) is showing up in my relationships and that Akshobhya is the diamond buddha who sees things as they really are. I always wondered what impact my dad's suicide had on me forming relationships but it's never something I've pinned down. It's also interesting to me that narcissism might fall under the the realm of psychological hungry ghosts (an addiction/state to never being abandoned, or a form of psychological bondage). I think my m's and family's behaviour definitely brings up some anger in me as well.

[dollyvee]

It sort of bypassed my radar, maybe I was disassociating (?), that I told two people about the text message from my sgf and their reactions told me a lot. It was like someone who had just smelled something bad where they crinkle up their noses and are like, what was that?

I think I'm also realizing how it looked for me/what my reality was being the scapegoat in my family (truth teller into scapegoat). How much people just accepted the dynamic that existed, that I would take on everything and they could treat me how they wanted. Even the bystanders that accepted it. I also told my aunt about the text and her reaction was similar, just well that's unfortunate. I said that I think this is something that's always been there and she didn't say much. The only difference for me now is that I'm saying something and putting up boundaries. So, the behaviour is more noticeable.

I think it was a lot to take on for a lot of years. To not have support from the family and to be treated like I'm the problem by the narc side, having to feel like I continually need to prove my actions and wonder why I'm always falling short when I feel like I have good intentions and then feeling like I'm crazy/don't know what's going on. I guess it's understandable why I don't feel like I can trust very well, why I push other people away because I just need to make sense of "this." That's one layer at least. It felt good to be able to tell them that but underneath, I think there is still the desire to push away after talking about it. Maybe that's where the dissociation is coming in.

[Hope67]

The only difference for me now is that I'm saying something and putting up boundaries. So, the behaviour is more noticeable.

I think it was a lot to take on for a lot of years. To not have support from the family and to be treated like I'm the problem by the narc side, having to feel like I continually need to prove my actions and wonder why I'm always falling short when I feel like I have good intentions and then feeling like I'm crazy/don't know what's going on. I guess it's understandable why I don't feel like I can trust very well, why I push other people away because I just need to make sense of "this." That's one layer at least. It felt good to be able to tell them that but underneath, I think there is still the desire to push away after talking about it. Maybe that's where the dissociation is coming in.

Hi Dollyvee,
I remember my reaction when I first read what you wrote about the text from your sgf.  I had strong feelings about it, I think if I was to label those feelings it would be in terms of feeling angry at the lack of care and obvious callousness of such a text - and I imagined how you might be feeling about receiving it, and I felt like I wished that someone had been able to stop him being so cruel to you in sending such a text.  Somehow it seemed worse that he did it at a festive time of year - as if it was more cruel timing somehow.

I highlighted what you wrote because I think it's such a major thing that you've put in place a boundary - that's huge.  I see you realising and seeing clearly through a fog that might have obscured things before.  I don't know if you feel like that, it's just what came to my mind. 

Anyway, I wanted to send you a hug of support and care   
Hope 

[CrackedIce]

Hey Dollyvee!

It's empowering to have your feelings echoed by your peers when it comes to situations like that.  A lot of times I don't trust my own reactions to things (am I overreacting?  should I just ignore it?) so it's nice to have some reinforcement from an outside source to help realize that my reactions are valid and I can trust myself a little more.

Also a great example of how boundaries (once you have them) can help highlight how bad things were/are.  Once you can stand up for yourself it's somewhat surprising to see how much people are used to stepping on your toes and getting away with it - another thing I'm getting used to myself.

Hope you have a good week!

[dollyvee]

Thank you CrackedIce - I found boundaries to be really difficult for a long time. Yes, you say no etc you should feel good right? Over time they've helped, but a lot of the time around people I also just feel "permeable," like I'm taking on their stuff. I think part of it could be empathy and being conditioned to be attuned to people (hypervigilance) and HSP. Dr. Ramani had a really good talk on setting boundaries with a narcissist and one of the things she talked about was psychological boundaries. It's not always black and white with boundaries (especially with passive-aggressiveness) where you're able to call out the behaviour, maybe in the way that I did growing up. Also, for me growing up, a lot of the time when the behaviour was called out it was gaslit or ignored with why are you mad at me? So, it feels as if there are never quite clear boundaries. Or if you voice them, they're ignored in a way and I had to take that on. I'm still learning about this and processing it.

It's interesting reading that Toxic Shame book by Bradshaw. There's a sense of responsibility that was taken on in kids from dysfunctional families and it becomes if I don't do this, then I feel this shame. I think perhaps that another reason why these psychological boundary issues are so persistent.
_______
So I had the following written below and never posted it before my session with t where I read her the text from my sgf and lo and behold, it didn't say what I thought it said. It said "leave estate to relative and you." I missed the "you" part. T asked me how I was  was going through my mind reading that and I said guilty and it's a trap. She validated that I had reason to expect to see something like that after what happened with my m's estate and sf. I can go into a lot of justification but I don't want to do that. In the past an error like that would have made me feel like I was making everything up and that my family did really love me and I was just being the awful one. I also mentioned if maybe this was hoovering. I also told t that I had been thinking about the blowout I had with my m and how my gm and sgf just sat there and didn't say anything. They said something to me after the fact of course, but never in the moment. Everything is just so wishy-washy.

From before:

Thanks Hope - I think it is huge but I also understand it in a way. I was a child who had to put up a boundary to the entire family when I was just one person saying this isn't right, or the way to treat each other. It was such an immense thing when I required security and safety from them as a child which is why I think it took time as an adult to do that. I needed to come to a place in my life where I was secure enough to do that. I think it's something each of us has to go through in our own way and it's so monumental. What a struggle really.

I know that when I told t that I was going back home in the summer and not going to contact my sgf, she congratulated me. I think part of me felt like a bad person for not doing that. Take time for myself? How could I do that? I'm being sarcastic I guess but it's also a reflection of my ICr voice at doing these things even if it's not always audible. (I also randomly (?) received a missed call from him on the morning I arrived which sent my alarm system off but over time felt better to speak with my cousins about my decision.) I just wanted to put this down because it often feels like you're fumbling through the dark with this stuff and then you come out on the other side and see a text like that, that I too think feels cruel in the way you mentioned, and it makes sense to do the things I did. ***I think it still makes sense after seeing the actual text but it's in a much more complicated way

I think there's a lot of layers in here too about what we're supposed to do generationally as grandchildren/children, how much you're supposed to forgive them because of their upbringing and the times they lived through etc. Or what we're told by society that we're supposed to do, how we should overlook certain behaviours etc. I brought up something with my aunt a few years ago about my alcoholic gm's behaviour and she told me that they were from a different time, there was no "free money" around like there is now etc and I told her that it doesn't mean it makes her behaviour ok. I've also been holding on to a story I saw on reddit about a family who's parents made a comment about how the first biological child was their grandchild and they omitted the two adopted children. They told the gps that they weren't welcome at Thanksgiving (?) dinner if they didn't apologize to the other kids and how they informed the other family what was going on. I feel bad for the kids being in the middle, but the whole dynamic stuck me. They were doing something that was hurtful and were not being excused for it, but being held responsible for their actions. I think it's something that so often gets pushed to the side (at least for me) because people don't want to see what's really going on.


I started reading the Shame That Binds You by John Bradshaw and I think this is the other, underneath layer that is going on. There's a lot of concepts to understand but can see how it's been influencing me. I came on here to write about how he mentions that toxic shame is often multi-generational and toxic shame based people find and marry other toxic shame based people (my gps, my m and sf |(and dad?)) and how the major outcome of the relationship is lack of intimacy. Yes, narcs can't be intimate because they don't have a sense of self, only a false self. It makes sense that I have no blueprint for intimacy/ issues with intimacy when there was no actual intimacy in the relationships around me (I think my dad was different, and his side of the family to an extent). I think it's also coupled with the fact that my m was an aggressor, so I associated closeness with that kind of intensity/conflict, and/or didn't have the tools or my own sense of self to communicate etc.

I think it takes some of the punch/feeling out of the "I'm not good enough, I'm such and such a person" dialogue in my mind about why I'm not in a relationship to a place where it's a little more, "I didn't have the whole picture of what intimacy was like growing up." This was of course coupled with, if I let this person in and it blows up like my family says it will (you can't trust anyone, men will do this to you etc) then it will blow up my security/survival. I'm just seeing how it is so hard to let someone see me, to expose myself that little bit, and I recognize that there's something in me that's shutting it down or wanting to go into withdrawal. It's terrifying really.

The other thing, well there's quite a few, that stood out was the idea of the Scapegoat in the family. This is the person who takes on all the shame in the family, which is usually multigenerational, when the fear, loneliness and hurt reaches a high level of intensity to lessen the pain for all family members. This person is usually the most sensitive. I know that this is what I wanted as a child, to help my family and for them to get better, and I did it as an adult too. I think it's another aspect of not keeping boundaries, that I do want to help and do these things. I guess it depends on if they're coming from an authentic self or a shame self?

[dollyvee]

Thankful for the algorithms this morning for popping up this video in my feed. Though I wouldn't say it's completely about romantic relationships, but the emotional/attachment patterns in relationships.

Fearful-Avoidants: Breaking The Cycle Of On-Again Off-Again Relationships
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PCcJsp30AA

I looked into attachment theory maybe 9/10 years ago before I started doing the cptsd and narcissism work. It came through being in a relationship with someone who was clearly avoidant and it triggered an anxious attachment in me. Therefore, I thought I must be anxious. I think attachment theory has evolved since them and there is now the Fearful-Avoidant. I've thought before that I keep getting into relationships with unavailable people because there is a part of me that wants to avoid that intimacy. I remember with my ex (non narc ex) when we were close it was like being engulfed and I just lost myself. What it felt like was anxiety and it was just too "much." Fearful-Avoidant with a mix of anxious and avoidant sounds like maybe it's a better fit for both sides of the spectrum.

There's a lot in here but the thing that stood out the most that I want to take on board is the ways to manage the "Otherness" because it sounds so close to what's going on with me.

Some points that stood out:
- can't connect deeply to other people because they have such intense trauma and secondary coping mechanisms that allowed them to navigate the world that are very different from other people

- feel "othered" so it's very intense when they meet someone and it's like they get you (you feel seen) that it becomes hard to leave that relationship even when it's not working for you

- if you start to develop the language and capacity to understand your own trauma responses in a way that allows you to communicate it to other people without feeling like your soul is bared and completely vulnerable, you can start forming more and more connections with people that don't have the same intense history

- (developing this allows you to) show up as your authentic self (let's go Toxic Shame book) in a way that doesn't overwhelm or scare off other people and you are bridging the gap between containing your experiences and those who have a more traditional upbringing

- the more connections you can form, the more you will feel at home in world so that you're just not vulnerable when you're trauma-bonded with someone 

This is a pretty big A HA for me and feels like the blueprint of what I've been trying to do in a way, but usually the end result when it didn't work (to connect etc) is that something is wrong with me, I scared them off, being hard on myself for saying the wrong thing etc, or being "x" enough and going into hurtful thinking. None of which were helping me manage my attachment style/trauma history better.


I watched this other one as well and it will take some time to digest for me because I think it's a lot. The lies that we tell ourselves and learned how to do from a young age    I used to think that I was a dishonest person and not to be trusted. I looked at my m's behaviour, and her way of no rules/ "getting away with things," and thought I must have learned some of this from her. But now, maybe what was coming up was that I learned how to lie in order to pass as "normal" and to not express myself for fear of a repercussion. I had to laugh when she said that part in the video. It's very, very familiar. I had to cover things up in my family to make them comfortable/be what they wanted and then I had to lie in the world to not show that any of these things had happened. This is also an underlying current/theme in things I've discussed with t. It feels very confronting in this video to see it like that, like POW.

10 "Survival Lies" You May Tell If You Have CPTSD
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5b0AT5wOrG0&t=1139s

[dollyvee]

Reflecting on the CPTSD and the lives we tell ourselves video a bit more. I think it takes a while to sink in because there are so many of them in a way that's not even conscious. With CPTSD I  have been doing it for so long for survival, or to fit and adapt in the world because most people "wouldn't get it" and I would need to caretake their feelings or manage their expectations, that it's second nature and is done without even realizing it. But the thing that is for sure is that it means not showing up as my authentic self, but the self I had to create in order to survive. I don't think showing up as the authentic self feels great. T mentioned that there are layers to what had developed for me and it's like a tapestry. I didn't say much, but reflecting on it after it came up that it is not a great feeling this tapestry. I guess that's the feeling of toxic shame. Cover up with the false self and when you feel the false self, you feel shame.

Lots of things have been making sense about fearful avoidant in a good way and the other feeling is that it's just like scattering all the puzzle pieces all over the floor. I don't think attachment theory is the be all and end all, and the good news is that it can be healed, but I am noticing when I look at how I'm relating. There's a few points that I think can really change how I frame things:

1. The hypervigilance/trust stuff coming up that something is wrong is most likely attachment stuff/disorganized attachment. Fearful-avoidant or disorganized attachment learned at a very young age (pre 18 months) that the caregiver was scary or threatening (in my case tho I think absence could be there as well?). So, they have a need to be close and at the same time be fearful.

2. Don't have to lose my self in a relationship. I think this was coming up before watching Fleishman in Trouble and how she had her own world, but now I can say, Oh that's because of disorganized attachment. That I can set boundaries and not fear repercussions. I'm also noticing with something that happened in the last week that feeling of once I set a boundary, that was it. I was all of a sudden expecting the worst, like it would end things. Also, notice that I become hyper-critical about myself when dating like nothing is ever good enough or I would have to change myself etc.

3. It's not, I'm a bad person, or there's something wrong with me, that's attachment and fearful avoidants are most likely to feel that way.

I think what has maybe been obscured before is that I am seeking out a relationship to some extent based on my subconscious stuff, even if I think the person is interesting etc but it's not the relationship's responsibility to heal our wounds. (Though, I do feel like I want comforting and assurance but I'm not sure on what level). That we can seek out attachment and attraction with a person, get triggered attachment wise, and then do the work to heal those wounded parts (paraphrasing here), which I think is a good way to look at it. I had a look on the forum and I don't think there's a lot about attachement theory here.

I think it's thrown up some things for me in the form of trust and how that's playing out and has played out in the past in romantic relationships where I'm constantly questioning if this person is safe (disorganized attachment) and perhaps that can come across as being critical,  or detached, because it's coming from a trauma place. I know why I'm doing these things but I also know it's hard to explain to people (and show up as my authentic self) because have had to caretake peoples' feelings about trauma for so long to show up as normal (yes, please date me I'm not crazy). There is also a double bind where I have to trust someone enough to be my authentic self with this stuff and maybe let them know what's going on, a little bit about why I might be acting a certain way (without going all the way to soul bared - very difficult scale to navigate rn), but how do I know that I can trust them with that information in the first place? Something I read recently was that to be vulnerable around people is like having blood in the water next to sharks.

She also has a couple of great videos on limerance (another Wow, a ha one and is quite mind blowing for me) and on fearful avoidants and anger. Apparently, fearful avoidants were most likely the scapegoats in the family and their expressions with healthy anger were gaslit or suppressed (great comment on the video about how someone was passive-aggressively provoked into anger by her family so she was the angry one, creating a double bind of expressing anger healthily but being mocked for it so she couldn't get angry. Also feels familiar in my narcissist family and with my sf), and so they are more likely to erupt in explosive episodes furthering the idea that their anger is irrational and they shouldn't do it.

How The Fearful-Avoidant Attachment Style Deals With Anger
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFrkbdUIYFM

Limerence: What Is It And How Do We Let It Go?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9l5ALCPEBkc&t=1648s

[CrackedIce]

Hi Dollyvee!

Not sure if this is the same as the attachment stuff you've been looking into, but the first book my therapist recommended to me (before we got deep into the C-PTSD stuff) was Getting the Love You Want by Harville Hendrix and Helen LaKelly Hunt.  It's mostly geared towards people in long-term relationships, but the main theory they work with is that people subconsciously seek out partners that re-enact their unresolved parental bonds, hoping to resolve them.  Kind of a "if they can love me, I'll be whole" type of deal.  But shortly after the honeymoon phase you begin to realize that you're not going to get what you're looking for (partially because you don't consciously know you're looking for it) and then both partners fall into a negative / disengaged pattern.

It's definitely been true in my case, in a lot of ways my wife has the same behaviours (although on a much, much smaller scale) as my unresolved parental issues, and there's been a lot of good exercises in the book that have helped me realize what I'm looking for, why I'm not getting it, and what we can do about it.

Anyways, thought I'd bring it up since it seemed to fit my experience as well.  Hope you have a good week!

[dollyvee]

Thanks CrackedIce - I'll have a look at that book! I relate to the idea of the honeymoon phase a lot. After watching the video on limerance, I've been picking up more on  the feeling of "this is something I *want* to happen." Yesterday I was really fixated on the idea of reconciliation to the point where it became more obsessive thinking, and then I realized that's limerance. What I wanted was the feeling of making up after the reconciliation, that I'm seen and understood for how I'm showing up in the situation (and everything is ok I guess), which is something I never got from my mom.

The book that I read about attachment theory was Attached by Amir Levine and Rachel Heller. I think it's more specific to the attachment styles themselves and how they act out attachment wounding in different ways/patterns. This was before I started looking at narcissism in my family and was swinging pretty anxious in relationships where I kept finding avoidant partners. I guess it was something I recognized in people but it was never an A Ha, I can see where this can really help me. Probably because I was feeling if I can just quiet this part of me that needs someone then I'll be ok, but that wasn't really the issue. The issue was that some part of me was seeing them as scary or dangerous. Learning about fearful avoidant now just helps reframe, or quiet I think, a lot of anxiety about what was going on in the way that if I can name it, I can identify it when it comes up and pause, say this is a trigger/or I'm dysregulated right now I need to take some space.

I was reading about peoples' experiences as an FA and something I thought was me, that I needed to do this, this is how I get through was an attachment wounding that a lot of other people have. The need to say "screw you, I'm out," or as I call it cut and run, is really common when FAs experience rejection/perceived rejection. What I never really knew was that FAs find emotional intimacy very confusing because of the push/pull dynamic and these heightened emotional "outbursts," or leavings, are a way to deal with those feelings. I've been saying recently that x's behaviour is really confusing, thinking that it's this person and that they're probably better off without me (wanting to end the relationship), but I think what was going on internally was a reaction from my attachment system and that intimacy is confusing for me. This was me trying to find a way to deal with those confusing feelings and basically sabotage the relationship.

Where it's showed up for me again is that I set a boundary and felt good about setting it (it was a good boundary), but didn't realize that my attachment wounding was came up afterwards. I was expecting to have a bad reaction/repercussion to setting the boundary, so the moment I "perceived" something negative from this person, I went into cut and run, that's it it's over. Seeing a "good" boundary and an FA "boundary" together makes me realize that acting in an FA way allows me to think that I have boundaries when I really don't. I don't need you is not really a boundary, or a healthy one at least.

More things about FAs that I'm realizing relate to me and shared by other people:

- always expecting to be screwed over by people, so always planning for that outcome

- wanting to keep things superfical and light (or go very deep)

- don't want to appear needy; having to need something from someone

- when "cut & run" happens it's not that I'm angry at the person, but more angry at myself for being stupid enough to be lied to (that I did something to jeopardize my security)

- paranoia - brain going into you're not safe mode

- when cut & run/emotional outburst happens there's usually an awareness that it was an overreaction and try to repair things

What I'm also realizing is how hard it must be for the person on the other end to relate to someone who is looking at them like a threat. I hope that becoming more aware of these patterns when they come up will allow me to pause and regulate better.