dollyvee's recovery journal

[Armee]

That's a big brave step

[Hope67]

Hi Dollyvee,
I'm glad that you found that book to be helpful - and I hope that the process to read your child records will go ok - I also think it's a brave step.   
Hope 

[dollyvee]

Thank you both    I don't know if it'll turn up anything, but I also won't be living in the fog of what I was told or how people behaved about it after. It will be my story and what happened to me, not a piece in someone else's; an event to make them feel better.

I have therapy shortly and I find myself sort of dissociating. There's a lot to talk about this week. I want to come back and talk about that book as well. I feel like every one of us should read it.

I also listened to a video by Patrick Teahan last night driving home from work and it gave me a lot to think about. I'll probably need to listen to it again and would like to do some of the exercises he talks about.

Do You Gaslight Yourself?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNAcUm-U3NE

Also, a lot of the comments on this video really resonate with me.

[dollyvee]

I'm trying to work out why it's so hard to admit (to say?) that they hurt me, or I was abused? Because I have been gaslit for so long into believing it was me, and it was something I did? There's this part of me that's always had to be tough and not let them see that they hurt me. This is what my m told me to do with my sf when he was bullying me instead of standing up for me against his behaviour. "He's only doing it because he can see that it bothers you." I think for years I felt like if I just acted differently, I could deal with it? I knew that my m's response to this and that "sometimes in a marriage it's better not to rock the boat" was messed up, but I guess I felt like I wasn't enough to stick up for, to protect.

Writing this now, I can see that my m was maybe in a similar situation growing up. In the psychhologist's reports, my gm said that ever since they were married (to my gf when my m was 4/5), that "my gf turned jealous and they had been in constant conflict." Meaning my m and gf I think. I feel like my gm was perhaps "protecting" my m, but was she? In the guise of being on someone's side, but not doing/giving them what they actually need. It's interesting to write this down and see how much my m and my experiences overlap. Was my gf actually jealous of my m in the way that my sf was jealous of me (was he actually jealous?)? My gm always said that he was good with her when she was young, it was when she got older and had a mind of her own that the problems started, but this contradicts the reports. My m also loved my gf very much (the way you love a narcissist?) and was very upset when he died.

Well, this is the idea of love in the family that I'm imagining. I think she needed him there for her. I was the one who actually cared and took care of him when his health started to deteriorate. My gf asked me to clean his apartment where all three were living for a time (my gf, m, and bother) when I came home from uni because he knew I would do it and not my m.
He couldn't do it himself any more. I'm writing this down and it's just wrong on so many levels. To be in that situation where he can see my m's behaviour and yet it was still up to me to do it. I even pointed this out to him and it was, that's just the way she is. It was like being young and being given up on all over again. That no one was going to stand up for me against other peoples' treatment of me. There was no chance to put myself first in that family. I still feel on some level like I'm looking for this kind of protection in other people. Will they be there for me? Which I guess to some extent, does put me at the mercy of other people, thinking that my safety/fate is in their hands. I guess it's giving my power away when that's what I had to do growing up? And/or trying this faux toughness where "they can't hurt me."

[dollyvee]

I also want to say how bloody painful it is to think that, on some level I;ve sabotaged a relationship with someone, because a part of felt like it had to preserve a relationship with my family who was never really there for me. It's awful. It sucks. And then the gross shame of being used like that by my family, that I let them do that.

______

I also want to say that sometimes I find myself trying to reason with unreasonable people, to "fight" for myself and how much like my childhood that was. What is the alternative without feeling like they are going to walk all over me? Learn to not gaslight myself and "give in?"

[Chart]

Dollyvee, I empathize so much with your struggle. It seems you have to tear down a lot of walls and start from the beginning to rebuild a structure that is fair and appropriate for you. This is tough work and I admire your awareness and determination. It shows through clearly in all your posts just how committed you are to analyzing your situation. I really admire you and the work you're doing.
 

[NarcKiddo]

The constant gaslighting since forever is so damaging, because as you have mentioned, we then end up gaslighting ourselves. (I have yet to watch that video you linked but I am already aware that I can gaslight myself and have done so massively more in the past). Of course as children we have no choice. They tell us what our reality is and we have to find a way to go along with that. In my case I was relentlessly told I was loved. Although, interestingly, I was never told I personally was loved. Any such reference was in the third person and usually anthropomorphised, so I'd get things like "Oh, how mama bear loves her cubs."

I completely get the reference to not letting them see that they hurt you. I have always found it safer not to give them any information whatsoever. If they know what hurts you they can use that against you. If they know what you like, they can withhold it at their whim. Of course there were times when I would have to be enthusiastic about things because if they gave me a "treat" and I did not act suitably delighted that brought its own retribution. So it was a case of finding a way to encourage the tolerable things, in the hopes that life could just be tolerable.

I'm sorry you feel shame about "allowing" your family to use you so that you sabotaged a relationship in favour of them. I doubt it was actually a case of allowing that, because if you were still enmeshed and stuck in their dysfunctional system then there really was no free will there. A "yes" is not a true yes if "no" is not an option. It is really bitter and foul to contemplate, though. I have made pretty much every major decision in my adult life based on what I thought FOO would want or approve of. So has my sibling - actually even more so and she is still deep in the fog. I am sure it has happened to you, too, that you have done these things to satisfy them, only to find that they are not satisfied. They do not praise you or love you for it.

I also want to echo what Chart has said above. You are doing such admirable work. I am really grateful for how much of it you are sharing with us, and that you are so generous with your willingness to discuss the points that arise, because it is so helpful.

 

[Chart]

 
Yes yes. I'm Learning so much here. I now see the behavior of my daughter for what it is: gaslighting! She is just doing the same thing as her mother. Incredible. I've just now realized this reading your journal. Thank you. This is enormous for me. I was already employing calming/non-reactive tactics, but it was not at all conscious on my part that what my 11-year-old daughter is doing is gaslighting me. Of course she's 11, so she's just acting out what she herself has witnessed. Which is her mother's narcissistic technique of exploding when she doesn't get her way. Holy moly incredible! Uh.. Thank you !!!

By the way, I'm guessing there are only two appropriate reactions to gaslighting: walking away or simply not reacting. Am I right about this?

(I'm gobsmacked... thanks again!!!)

[dollyvee]

Thank you Chart and NK  It is cathartic to write it out here because I don't feel like I've ever got to express things freely in my life before. I guess it's my hope that by being open about what's going on is that it does help other people (and myself) to come together and be able to relate. Maybe it's the "fixer" part of me that's still active that tried to fix everything in my family, but at least this time it's probably not falling on deaf ears. I guess it's my hope too, that that openness prompts others to extend that openness forward.

Chart - my understanding of gaslighting is something (words, actions, etc) that deny one's reality ie people telling you that "it's not that bad," or, "I didn't say that," when you know they did. In my family, my m and my gm would allow this really awful stuff to happen to me, tell me they loved me, but it certainly didn't feel that way to me. Any time I would bring up feelings, or try to discuss something with my gm, she would go into victim mode and say, why are you so angry? I'm not angry, but you doing that is making me angry! Then, I would be the problem because I was angry. My initial feelings about something didn't matter. Or like when I brought my m into my first t's office to discuss some of the things that had happened growing up, she took it as, "you're saying I'm a bad mother?" At no time did my actual feelings in any of this matter. No one ever brought up the term gaslighting to me. I'm not sure how to respond to a child because they're ideas about the world aren't essentially fixed yet and they're still developing in my understanding. I would say that your feelings are valid and you have a right to them. Someone can also be upset because they can't get their way. However, I think it's how it's dealt with when they don't get their way that matters. You could try talking to your daughter about her feelings and see what's going on behind them ie if I don't get my way it means x and then ask why x matters etc etc. This is just IMO.

NK - I'm sorry you had to go through that. I think that's what was most damaging for me, and why it took so long to unpack. I was told by my gm that I was her precious angel and she would do anything to protect me. However, I think there was an  added caveat being as long as it reflect back on her being a bad parent etc. I think this is why she didn't tell my dad about my m leaving me home at night when my family gp wanted to call social services. Then the "truth" of the family would come out.

(This isn't necessarily a response to you NK, I'm just working out/summarizing how I'm starting to understand how the nitty gritty of early attachment stuff has been showing up in me and I think it's good to write it all down) How I'm starting to understand how these things work internally is that there's things I've taken on from an early age, beliefs about the world, that aren't necessarily mine, but because they were the beliefs of someone who I felt safe with (my gm, gf), and needed in my life because of all the neglect etc that was going on, they became a part of my inner world too. I think that was a sense of "love," of belonging, but also one that never seemed to materialize and was always on edge? Like I would meet someone, but something always seemed off, or I would push/pull, looking for that evidence that these "beliefs" would be "true" ie there was always something that was "unsafe." I don't know how to put it. I think then dating/the idea of a relationship became about somehow dealing with these feelings of fear/annhilation/right to exist that had formed because of early attachment with my m, but also about and the ideas about people that I had taken on from my gm because she was also an attachment figure and someone I felt safe with. I guess in order to exist/feel love, I had to find someone who wasn't going to leave me for someone younger, hurt me, reject me etc (all gm beliefs that were in the reports). So, I feel like instead of allowing space for someone to come into my life, or explore that connection, it was like taking these beliefs and projecting them onto someone ie I like him he must not be a relationship guy, or into younger women etc etc and waiting for confirmation if that happened. Not to mention the sort of subtle jealously that seemed to be there vs needing independence on my part. I feel like I was just playing out a blueprint of my gm and gf's relationship that had been imprinted on me at a young age? It was definitely a lot less about being curious who this person actually is, then it was about I don't know, having the safety or right to exist, which isn't really fair to the other person.

My safety/right to exist had previously come through preserving the relationship I had with my family and the beliefs that other people are going to take advantage of you etc. This was "love" and I guess that was somehow transferred on other people, and was living on in me because I still needed that idea of safety that my family provided because I'd never dealt with (was able to deal with) the emotions around everything that happened. My gm was my sense of safety at an early age therefore I will take on these beliefs about the world to maintain that safety and connection, and she must be right, she's an adult that cares about me. Dating/meeting someone was always like the magic key that unlocked all these emotions and then when I reacted (ie they took longer to respond after we were intimate, they must be rejecting me. I'm going to shut it down. Then would feel bad/realize what I had done and that I had overreacted, but there would be no going back for them because my behaviour was "off") and they would end things, it would get locked away again because I would feel like I had done something wrong and it must be about me being a bad person like I had been told by my m (ie not being loveable).

When NARM t asked me about the lack of space around the feelings of expansion and connection, and how there would almost immediately be negative voices surrounding me (that reminded me of my family), I said it would mean I would have to leave my family behind (in order to have more connection and I guess to stay with those feelings of expansion). I think connection also brings up the idea that I'm supposed to take care of other people the way I was as a small child something I wasn't really conscious about until rereading the psychologists reports on how that was my function at four years old. The safety in the family also came from the idea that the family was ok, just like everyone wanted to believe I think. I  guess it's just upsetting to me that I feel like this stuff is still affecting me and I do feel shame about that.

I think connection was also shut down when my "safety" became threatened as well like how am I going to survive in the world; I must take on my family's beliefs because they knew best (or that's what a young part of me thinks?). So, I think I go into, or went into, shut down about these things when stuff at work would come up for example (my sense of security in the world) and then I would sort of go into limerance about someone that I was romantically interested in after work as a way to deal with the stress, and so the feelings of fear/annhilation would be suppressed.

What I'm also starting to notice is how this stuff is compartmentalized  in me, or it sort of drops into the "well/void." I guess perhaps that is freeze? On another thread, NK mentioned never receiving financial help if you needed it. I sort of was remembering how my m refused to cosign (not even give me the money, just cosign) for me on a mortgage at the time. Actually, she didn't refuse to cosign, she said that my sf would have to cosign because the house was also in his name and he would never do that because it was me. Like no recognition of how messed up that is from my m that I, as a seven to nine year old, had somehow done something so wrong to this grown man that it was a justifiable reaction, or an ok thing to say. When I wrote in my journal a while ago that I could actually be in a position to buy somewhere, it was coming from a place where I felt like that was something never possible for me. I didn't think about how it made me feel to not have my m/family support me in it before. It's like it just got cut off into this well of, "I'm a bad person." I didn't even remember, until now, that those "dots" might connect, and that my sf refusing to cosign might have something to do with my surprise at my ability to do something for myself. I don't know how to describe that feeling? I think, interestingly, this is probably compounded by my gm's inability to make herself independent from my gf (and my m from my sf). That I am shocked I can be independent of this abuse or I don't understand my life/independence if it's not there? I guess this is some form of dissociation.

How amazing would it be if there was a lender geared towards trauma kids? My little hope for the day haha.

[natureluvr]

This is what my m told me to do with my sf when he was bullying me instead of standing up for me against his behaviour. "He's only doing it because he can see that it bothers you."

This just makes me so angry!!  Grrr!!  Same sort of thing happened to me.  Lets just blame the victim, which is the easy way out.  It sounds like scapegoating to me.  I empathize with you.

I guess I felt like I wasn't enough to stick up for, to protect.

They blame us, then we end up blaming ourselves.  It's no wonder.  I just want to assure you that you were deserving of protection, but your parents were lousy parents, and didn't support you or protect you.   

And then the gross shame of being used like that by my family, that I let them do that.

Try not to blame yourself for your family using you.  They started this when you were a young child, and you had no choice but to go along with it for your survival.  It becomes so ingrained that we keep doing it in adulthood, and it takes a lot of work to break these patterns. 

[natureluvr]

A "yes" is not a true yes if "no" is not an option.

This is very powerful!  I love this! 

[natureluvr]

Any time I would bring up feelings, or try to discuss something with my gm, she would go into victim mode and say, why are you so angry? I'm not angry, but you doing that is making me angry! Then, I would be the problem because I was angry. My initial feelings about something didn't matter.

Or like when I brought my m into my first t's office to discuss some of the things that had happened growing up, she took it as, "you're saying I'm a bad mother?"

From these examples, it sounds like your gm and your m were selfish people.  They were so concerned with themselves, they couldn't or wouldn't care about you. 

[dollyvee]

Thank you naturluvr 

I guess going along with what naturluvr said about not blaming myself for people using me as they started doing it when I was young, I feel like I've uncovered something that I do that might permit the same behavior in my adult life. I feel like I "need" other people around me, that they have to see me and validate. So, I look for that attachment in people who might not be able to give it. Worse yet, people who I think I can show those little moments of vulnerability, which then end up coming back to haunt me as these weren't safe people. These are people who want to bring up moments of vulnerability as evidence that there's something "wrong" with me. Not only that, but I feel like these people are competitive and how do you face/deal with people who want to use the very things you're working on. Worse yet, I feel like when there are safe feeling people around it becomes hard to open up because these feelings/memories of this happening are at the back of my mind. Will it happen again? It's easier to move away from it in the first place.

So, it's happening again. I stood up for myself at work and it's coming back on me. Someone is telling me I need to do something when I have done that thing and tried to placate someone, and they have done nothing on their end, pointing the finger at me. This is a third party observing the situation. When I asked them if their association by employment had anything to do with their view about what was happening, and perhaps there was some gaslighting happening, they said they wondered if that was a factor. I sort of feel like this person is now moving against me to protect their position at work. Watching how I am with other collegues that I might have a connection with and interrupting, excluding. I guess it's a form of bullying. Maybe not consciously, but probably dissociated. There's a lot of this and while I understand that sometimes it's left to other people to sort out, there is definitely a level of hypocrisy and self interest involved. I guess it reminds me a lot of growing up, and being left on the outside to deal with things. It's bringing up feelings of being alone again to deal with things that are happening and not having someone understand; to feel that no one wants me and I don't "fit in" because of my life and what's happened to me. In order to fit in, I have to go along with the crowd and deny my experience. What a conundrum, and especially since I'm being paid to do something. So, it is like using me for something, to provide a service that I need to survive. I guess this is maybe why I find work so triggering sometimes. I guess, like other people, I can only focus on myself.

edit: I guess too that this is an example of scapegoating. I'm just processing this.

[dollyvee]

I think what I wrote yesterday and this episode at work is still having an effect on me.

I just remembered watching this person, who I felt like was on my side (yeah not a scapegoat), take someone something did and turn around and mock that person to someone else. I didn't take that other person's attitude seriously, and in fact they turned out to be a really nice person. But it did stick in my head that she mocked her, and I asked her about it after, where she said, oh no I like her. Later on, I saw her being very nice to the other woman and I guess an alarm bell rung about being "fake." This idea of being fake in social situations, ie saying mean things behind their back and then nice to their face, has always made me weary of social interactions. I was told before in my early 20s by a "friend," that I was taking it too seriously, and all people talk about you behind your back. She's another story for another time.

I guess the whole interaction is interesting to me because something in me felt the need to stick up for this other person, to protect them, and also face truths about someone else's behaviour, which I feel reluctant to do on some level. This stuff is all so tiresome for me. I also question myself because people who do this always seem to get on and be well liked. Even the woman she mocked liked her seemingly. Where I will remain quiet and not want to "get involved," and probably think that I don't want to be involved with people who aren't nice people. I don't know, this is kind of it in a nutshell. I believe in going to work and doing a good job, but there is a large social component to it as well. The irony is of course that they think they are nice. I had someone say to me recently after I showed them something as a joke about how I do my job, that they wanted that to be true so they could take a picture and show it to everyone, essentially humiliating me, and then tell me on another day how they were a nice person. I didn't bring up this incident to them. I don't know, this is kind of it in a nutshell. I believe in going to work and doing a good job, but there is a large social component to it as well. How do you be a healthy person (or trying to be) in a really dysfunctional environment. I'm trying not to take on peoples' projections and take a step back when people like that are rewarded and you may be overlooked. It's challenging, and again brings up feelings of being scapegoated.

Something else happened again and I'm trying to pick out these feelings of feeling powerless because I think that is what's happening, or being in a situation where I feel like I have no control. There's also a lot of shame in talking about this stuff because (I think like t did) it will be in my "head." I feel like I've been talked out of feelings and responses a lot in my life. So, I'm going to start saying, what if highly sensitive people exist? And what if I might be one of those people, picking up subtleties where others don't? I'm open that certain things might be a projection on my part, but I don't think everything is and I'm tired of defending that.

Anyways, I was in the gym and there's another person in there that I have noticed in the past and feel an affinity towards. I feel like they may sort of stick up for me, or see things in me that others don't (this of course could be projection), but generally feel good towards this person, and perhaps felt maybe something romantic could happen though I'm tentative. I don't like reading into things that way. There was another woman in the gym and I felt a competitive vibe from. I feel like they would demand a lot of attention and then react badly if they didn't get their way (again possible projection and very much in the same vein as my mother). However, this has also happened a few times where I've shown interest in someone and then they have stepped in trying to get that person's attention, and either flaunting it when they do, or being jealous when they don't. I guess this is human nature. It's a long standing trigger for me and I hate to admit it. I also feel like I shut down any interest towards this man to protect myself against this woman's behaviour because of what it might entail. I also feel like I shut down any connection to the woman that I found myself protecting because of the other person's behaviour and what "might" come up. I would rather remove myself from these situations than participate. I guess it's because it feels like it's an unwinnable fight like it has in the past? Or that someone won't actually be on my side and I'll have to allow this kind of behaviour in my life? Do I have to allow this behaviour in my life? What feels like people crapping on me and being some kind of endless competition so they can feel better about themselves? I think that's what my life has been so far - let other people win so they can feel better about themselves, or there's consequences if you "win."

I have a very clear memory of around five I think that comes up once in a while. I was in swimming lessons at an outdoor pool. (I don't know how old I was, and I don't remember why this pool. Was it because it was around where my dad was living at the time? I don't even remember where my dad was living at this time, with his friend? He also lived in an apartment complex for a while. It felt like it was halfway between my m and my dad's, but maybe this is older me mapping this out.) It was the graduation day when we would get our badges. It felt like it was the beginning of summer and it was hot and all those blue/white reflections were dancing everywhere. We had a race and I remember my dad saying to me after, you were going to beat that boy how come you let him pass you? Or, why did you slow down? Something like that. It wasn't a reprimand, I just think he maybe understood that I wasn't standing up for myself, or I had given up. I must have learned by then that it's better not to have any attention on you, or to let other people win. It's easier. Whatever need that is (to have attention/praise?) was locked away pretty early and I guess it became clear that I had to let other people "win."

I was speaking with NARM t the other week and something came up about my m and some feelings around that I was the loser, constantly losing to her. I guess that's what it felt like. Not only a measure of self identity, losers also feel powerless. I feel like in a winner/loser situation there is also a power dynamic and someone has power over you. Therefore, it's better not to participate and give them that advantage. This is emotional stuff. It doesn't necessarily have a thought attached to it, or memory. Perhaps it's preverbal.

 

[Chart]

Dollyvee, I identify with a lot of what you're talking about. I always find it difficult to make the decision to either let something go or try to figure it out. With time I've tended more and more to just let things go. I've spent too much energy in the past trying to untangle and understand situations and people. Now I ask myself one crucial question: is this a person I think has value and we could share something enlightening together? I let this question gestate in my brain before actually doing anything active. AND I keep the question specifically in my head every time I interact with this person. I can and will let it drop off if the person doesn't meet the requirement at each encounter. It's like an ongoing evaluation and each subsequent meeting is invested based on my impressions from the last meeting. I consciously CHOOSE to master the relationship from MY wants and needs. I'm never aggressive or rude, just constantly vigilant of my interior impressions as the relationship evolves. Of course this is amical relationships where there's no physical interest... or "love"... "That's" a whole nother story! And I hardly master those situations AT ALL.