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This is fantastic! Thank you for sharing it!

Cumulative does seem to make more sense than complex.

I am also in the camp that argues for 'injury' rather than 'disorder'. I use the analogy - if I had been hit in the leg by a club, no one would say 'you have a bone disorder' they would say 'you have a leg injury/broken leg bone (implying INJURY rather than disorder)'. Walking poorly, or even not being able to walk, expressing pain, etc. would be signs that I have an injury not a disorder. Well, someone whacked me in my emotions and psychological well-being with a club. Why is this injury suddenly now called a disorder? Additionally, 'injury' indicates 'was done to me' and also 'with treatment will heal (not always back to normal but to 'good' and 'good enough)'. Disorder, at least in the culture where I live, means 'crazy' (and we know there is nothing inherently wrong with being 'crazy' but the surrounding culture has not gotten there yet), 'taboo', and worst 'shake it off, lazy person' while somehow also contradictorily meaning 'stuck with it forever even with treatment'.

Finally, really shame on the therapist who dismisses the different reality of those with C-PSTD (and I try to not 'shame on' anyone so you know I mean it here). That is such an abusive form of gaslighting   . It would be no different that that person speaking to someone with a compound fractures in their leg and saying 'I don't know why people are making a big deal about your leg and needing surgery for it, other people have sprained their ankles and that is painful too.'.

I agree with the others; feelings are just feelings and not right or wrong. No one should make us feel wrong for having or not having a particular feeling. It is in NO WAY a weakness to feel/not feel an emotion. Often, we fail to feel an emotion because it does not apply to us (e.g. I feel happy at the sight of a spring robin, but a coworker of mine thinks that is ridiculous; I then feel sorry for him...). Sometimes, especially when we never/rarely feel an emotion (or any emotion) it is because we have had a good reason to stop that feeling; the stopping might have been a sign of our strength/resiliency and/or adaptability rather than weakness.

On the feeling of feelings, I am going to speculate for a moment. Perhaps your T was not so concerned about you not feeling joy specifically so much as about you not really feeling much of anything generally? (though it does sound like your T went about it in an awkward way).

For example, when I first started my healing journey, I was fairly numbed out emotion-wise. I had been taught that  'negative feelings' such as anger and sadness were 'bad' and 'must not be felt',  and especially not expressed (somehow guilt and shame were still allowed... hmmm...). I had also experienced overwhelming amounts of anger, fear, and sadness, due to abuses done to me during my childhood. So, I had purposefully and 'accidentally' worked very hard at shutting down those emotions in me to both avoid punishment by my FOO (and others as I grew up) as well as to avoid the overwhelming, uncomfortable sensations that go with these feelings. Turning off the feeling of these feelings was an adaptive, protective strategy that I (largely unconsciously) undertook to protect myself.

The problem is that the human body does not have a set of selective switches for emotions, it just has one big switch for them all. In shutting down the so-called 'bad feelings' I had also shut down the good ones: joy, happiness, excitement, anticipation, love, etc.. I was totally numbed out and had no idea what my emotions were (and am often still trying to figure out what they are). In enacting this self-protective strategy, I did what was necessary and sensible for my circumstances at the time. Unfortunately, I continued the strategy even after it was useful (again largely unconsciously). And unfortunately, in blocking myself off from my emotions I also necessarily blocked myself off from one of the beautiful parts of being human, feeling both the so-called 'good' and 'bad' emotions of life (and yes, other animals also experience emotions but I think they are less likely to cut themselves off from their feelings that we are).

Additionally, because I cut myself off from my emotions, I inadvertently made myself more vulnerable to abusive 'predators' (a bitter irony since the strategy was enacted in the first place to protect myself from my abusers). Because I stopped feeling my emotions, I could not feel resentment and anger when someone was taking advantage of me; I could not feel anxiety or fear when someone was set on causing me harm; I had also shut down my intuition and the instincts that we have to protect us from danger (perhaps more accurately, I had been taught to ignore those signals). I was left more vulnerable to abusers and predators because my emotional system was malfunctioning (and, of course, because I had been taught people-pleasing and other behaviours that made me more vulnerable to these people). I was made more vulnerable to those who would take advantage of me because my body was unable to send warning signals to me about these people and because I was unable to 'hear' and understand the signals that my body was able to still send (and because I had been taught inappropriate responsive behaviours). I speculate that that is part of the reason those of us who suffered CSA are more vulnerable to other assaults, but that is the topic for a different post.

And, worst of all, I never fully felt joy, love, happiness, anticipation, excitement, pride, etc., etc. By shutting down my 'bad' emotions I had necessarily (from a physiological perspective) also shut down the 'good ones'. I had robbed myself - more accurately, my FOO had robbed me - of some of the best parts of having emotions.

During my healing journey I have been figuring out what I like and do not like, etc., learning to make healthy boundaries, to express my needs and wants and to assert myself. To do all of this, I have necessarily had to start accessing and listening to my feelings again. My new T also has a focus on feelings emotions and listening to what my body and emotions are telling me. It has been challenging and at times terrifying (yay! I can feel scared!  (?)); lifelong habits that were developed to (at least initially) keep me safe, are being threatened as I am trying to enact the exact opposite way of being. But I have to admit I am starting to enjoy, or at least appreciate, the process. I stop regularly and ask myself 'how am I feeling right now?' and am genuinely curious about the answer and what I can learn from it.

The feeling of emotions and feelings also seems to be a key part in our healing journeys (trauma expert Dr. Bessel van der Kolk and others have started addressing this issue). The Spartan Life Coach has made a few Youtube videos on the topic that I have found useful. I especially enjoyed an exercise that he teaches in one of the videos of regularly sitting down (he suggests everyday for a month or several weeks? - I forget) and feeling feelings and then mapping them out visually on paper. It can be a general 'how am I feeling now' diagram or a 'I just interacted with my *#&^ boss how do I now feel?' diagram. At the beginning, as Richard Grannon (the SLC) notes is true for many/most of us, my initial 'how do I feel' responses were 'bad' and 'good' but Grannon encourages then looking a 'bad' and seeing what 'bad' means (is it angry, sad, irked, guilty, all of the above, some of the above, none of the above?). With practice, I have been able to be more nuanced - rather than 'bad' I can say I feel 'angry' and rather than 'angry' I can say 'irked' or 'irate', etc. I recommend these videos and that exercise. I have made it into a bit of a game for myself, coming up with the correct words to fully express my feelings for the digram. I also modified the exercise and added colours and shapes with coloured-pencils around the words because that makes the exercise easier for me.

So, back to the originally point, perhaps your T was not so concerned that you are not feeling joy specifically but that you are a bit numbed out in your emotions generally? Perhaps she is using a round-about (and again somewhat awkward) way of helping you get in touch with your emotions, focusing on a 'safer', 'positive' one, such as joy rather than a more 'dangerous', 'negative' one such as anger.(?). Because while at the same time that turning off 'negative' emotions also turns off the 'positive' ones, the reverse is also true; feeling (turning on) 'positive' emotions also allows us to feel the 'negative' ones.

All of that said, if your T was communicating or behaving toward you in a way that was making you feel uncomfortable (yay! you can feel bad/uncomfortable!  (?)) then that point still needs to be addressed, even if your T had 'good motives'. If you feel comfortable enough with your T, you might wish to talk to her about that (recognizing that can be a difficult discussion). Or maybe just ask 'I am curious why there was a focus on joy last day'. If focusing on the feeling/not feeling of joy is uncomfortable and not working for you, no matter your T's motives, then that might be the wrong approach for you. Maybe instead of trying to feel a way you T thinks you 'ought to feel' it might be easier to just figure out what you do feel? And yes, 'lousy', 'not too bad', and 'good' are valid responses, especially at the start, though it is useful to see what 'good', etc. entails. And yes, you are allowed to feel irritated by a spring robin even though others (I) feel joy from it - I would not feel sorry for you then but happy that you know that (I do feel sorry for my coworker who is generally cynical and so consciously 'tries' to not feel joy at small things in life). I tend to be a bit of a rule breaker (which I have been told is a result of having grown-up as the responsible child in a FOO with no stable rules), especially as I have been overcoming my people-pleasing learning. So, if the T gave me this exercise, I might choose to ignore the whole 'joy/not joy' shtick and just focus on 'what am I feeling now?'. (and yes, if you as my T he would agree that I am likely to do that).

That's a tough one. From my personal (and entirely anecdotal) experience, I suspect that telling your friend to leave him might be more likely to prompt her to dig in her heels and stay with him. But of course, it is difficult to stand by and 'do nothing'.

I am with the others; listening and offering support is the 'something' that you can do right now and might be the best option.

A few years ago, I had a really close friend who was in a dysfunctional (read emotionally and psychologically abusive) relationship. I listened and provided support for her. I also regularly let her know that no matter what, I would always be there for her. I had noticed that he had started isolating her from her friends, including me (never a good sign). As their relationship progressed I got less and less communication from her, including virtually no online contact even though she is someone who normally responds to emails right away. I made a point of checking in with by email. I always stayed neutral and fairly generic assuming that he could and likely did read her messages. I would say 'thinking about you hope you are well, things here are good'. 'I noticed tulips were up this morning, I remember you like tulips here is a photo of them', etc. short, neutral messages. I never got a response, and thought that I had lost her as a friend. Until one day at about 2 am she called and asked me to come pick her up (she had been living with him). She had finally had enough, was scared, and had no other friends left; because I had still sent her emails she hoped that I was still willing to be there for her and so called me. I picked her up, took her home (to my home), held her while she cried, fed her ice cream and herbal tea, let her sleep on the couch, and when she was ready helped her go through her options on what to do next. She unfortunately, included going back to him, which I left on the table; I have sworn off co-dependent relationships and being the fixer so needed to let her decide what to do even if I thought it a bad idea. Instead, I asked 'how do you feel about option x (which she had come up with)?', 'what do you think the impacts of option y might be?'. And I held her when she cried, fed her more ice cream and herbal tea, and provided resources (websites, brochures, phone calls to appropriate school people (we were also classmates and she needed a leave)), etc. I did not use the information to sway her one way other the other, but tried to provide the data she needed to make her decisions but was too overwhelmed to seek out on her own. I always first asked questions such as 'would it help if I asked the school about what is involved in taking a leave of absence?' 'would it help if I looked your tenancy rights in breaking the lease with him?' etc. Fortunately, she did break up with him and is now doing quite well in her life and relationships.

So my vote is 'listen and be supportive as she works through this' and if you are able then also  'regularly let her know that you will always be there for her' - and then be there for her (if you know you cannot do that, and you are absolutely allowed to make that boundary then of course do not do the latter half).

For me, it sounds as if you might be touching on the difference between guilt (regret) and shame (self-hatred)*...

From my perspective:

When guilt speaks it says 'you did something wrong, it would be a good idea if you were to try and atone for it'. Guilt assumes you are a reasonable person who sometimes undertakes inappropriate behaviours.
E.g. guilt might say 'when you called your friend an idiot you hurt her feelings. It would be a good idea to apologize to her and try to make amends'. It might also agree that you would never have called your friend an idiot if you had not also been in a bad mood because your boss yelled at you unfairly in front of you coworkers.

When shame speaks, it says 'there is something inherently bad and flawed about you as a person, so of course you behaved badly (it is only to be expected from someone like you).'
Using the above example shame would say 'you hurt your friend's feelings. You are a horrible friend and horrible person. Your friend will hate you now. Everyone hates you anyway. It was only a matter of time until your friend hated you too. Really, how could anyone like you? You are horrible!'. You do not deserve to have friends' (and so on)

UGH! apologies for the above, I feel icky for having written it and reading it over. But, it is for the purposes of comparison and contrast between guilt and shame.

For me, guilt draws our attention to bad behaviours and helps us to behave in appropriate, positive ways, having compassion for us as fallible human beings. It also helps us to live in agreement with our consciences by helping to stop us from behaving badly and encouraging us to try to make amends when we do behave badly. It recognizes that as humans we will inevitably make mistakes but holds our Selves separate from our actions, assumes we are good people despite our occasional missteps, and leads us in the direction of more consistently undertaking appropriate, positive actions that help to connect us to others and to our Selves. Guilt also assumes we are generally good people who can learn from mistakes and try atone for them.

Shame, on the other hand, insists that we are inherently flawed that our bad actions are equated with our character (conveniently ignoring or dismissing all of our good actions), and that we can do no right, and usually (always) will do wrong. It prevents us from learning from our mistakes (because we truly can do no right anyway), and from making amendments for actions that we have done that have hurt others. Shame bullies us into hiding from those we could apologize to and make up with, and isolates us from supportive others. It tells us lies about who we are as people, exaggerating minor transgressions into major character flaws, and insisting that we are so flawed that we, and everyone around us, would be better off hiding our inherently-horrible selves away from the world. Shame separates us from others and our Selves.

My sense, and this is just guessing and speculation on my part, is that guilt is something we have internally but that shame is something that has been imposed upon and inserted into us by others (generally unhealthy, abusive others). Guilt serves us but shame serves those others.

For me, guilt is a basic feeling that we all (except some of the Cluster Bs) have. It helps us to live well in our social groups. We have consciences and, in turn, guilt because humans are generally social creatures, and as such we need to be aware of the ways that our behaviours impact those around us. Our consciences and ability to feel guilt (and also accomplishment, satisfaction, and joy) help us to behave in moral ways in our social settings. As part of our consciences guilt also encourages allows us to have good boundaries, so that we can tune into our sense of what is right and what is wrong. Guilt and conscience also allow us to recognize when others are treating us badly - to recognize when they ought to feel guilty about their behaviours toward us.

For me, shame, in contrast, is a learned response imposed upon us by others, often our earliest caregivers. Shame serves no purpose to us, and is actually detrimental to us; an impulse to separate us from our Selves and from others (especially give that we are essentially social creatures) can only be destructive to us. We are taught shame by those who benefit from keeping us (co-)dependent, compliant, and subservient to those teaching us to be ashamed of ourselves (and our Selves). When we feel shamed by the supposed terribleness of our Selves, then we feel that no one could ever love us for who we are, which in turn, forces us to seek love from those 'generous enough to care for us despite how horrible we are' and so we continue to trauma bond with those who abuse us because we have been taught that these individuals are the only ones who will 'love' us. We also learn that because we are inherently flawed, unlovable, and unworthy of love and happiness (all messages from shame) we must continue to strive to 'earn' the love of those around us, particularly those who taught us the shame in the first place and those who will use our people-pleasing tendencies to their own advantages.

Guilt focuses on actions and encourages and prompts us to behave in moral ways that match our consciences, ways that will bring us closer to our Selves and to the people around us. Although sometimes misguided, guilt focuses on our well-being. Shame focuses on the flaws (real, exaggerated, or completely false) that we have in ourselves and tells us that it is hopeless to try and overcome these flaws. Shame separates us from our Selves and others and prompts us to behave in 'love-earning' ways that serve those who taught us to feel ashamed of ourselves and to hide our Selves away from those who might otherwise be supportive of us. Shame focuses on the well-being of others to the detriment of our Selves.

Guilt is a natural, internal part of being human; it is part of our consciences which can let us know when we are behaving badly but as part of our consciences can also allow us to feel proud of ourselves when we, for example, help someone else. Shame is an externally-imposed (though unfortunately often internalized) tumour on our emotions and psychological functioning, usurping their intended purposes and our well-beings. Shame aims  to keep us feeling horrible about our Selves no matter the circumstances or our behaviours.



*At first, I felt self-conscience because it seemed (seems) as if I am contradicting sanmagic7, especially because I have read sanmagic7's comments on many other posts and usually agree with the comments and always have respect for her. But then I realized that we actually are talking about the same thing just using different semantics. For me, guilt-trips, guilt projected on us by others, etc. are all still called 'guilt' (I use the expression guilt-trip myself). But here, I am speaking of guilt generated from internal sources. This type of negative feeling coming from someone else is more in the shame-realm for me. Ah English, what a beautiful, versatile, and often frustrating language... 

Wow! Phoebes  I feel like you peeked into my brain and wrote my tale. Thank you for having the courage to post this topic.

I too had my voice stolen from me. I am still working on getting it back. I am getting better, finding my voice and practising regularly to get more of it back. I am fortunate that I have been at it long enough that I do not always notice anymore when I am assertive, and also that I have a couple close friends and a good T who will point out progress and celebrate with me. Recognizing that I am far from an expert on the topic, and that no one strategy will work for every person, but that I have been at it for a while so have had a chance to scope out the territory a bit and practise a lot, I have put down a few points on what has helped me. From your comments you seem open to ideas, but please use, tweak, or totally disregard any or all of the points below as best suits your and your circumstances:

• I too found the book Boundaries - Where You End and I Begin tremendously helpful
• I also just finished and gave a five-star review to The Assertiveness Guide for Women by Julie de Azevedo Hanks
  - this is a solid resource that rather than giving 'say x in the face of y' advice, Hanks leads the reader to discover our own attachment and communication styles, and to get to know what we really need and want (because without that knowing, how can we ask for it)
  -Hanks empowers the reader by first helping us to build a firm foundation to stand on so that we have a solid place from which to use our voices
• I started by practising 'easy' (OK, relatively easy), fairly low-stakes communications. E.g. politely asking a waiter for a glass of water at a restaurant. E.g. Saying a happy good morning to the cashier ringing in my groceries. E.g. Asking someone at the train station for the time or confirmation that I was waiting at the right track (even if I knew I was at the right place)
• Recognizing that I could not ask for what I needed or wanted because I had no idea what that was (part of the reason Hanks' book resonated with me and how I chose my OOTF username) I started trying new things to find out more about myself. I take classes at community centres, participate in a volunteer group, eat at different places for lunch - both different restaurants and different places (parks, the cafeteria, etc.) to take my packed lunch, trying new genres of books at the library, etc.
  -if I enjoy the experience, I continue with it; if not, I let it go and try something new (sometimes too I enjoy something but get what I need from it and still move on)
• For me, taking a women's self-defence course was tremendously helpful - NOT a martial arts class - but one centred on helping women use their strengths to protect themselves
  -in this class we learned the importance of assertiveness and literally practised saying and shouting 'NO!' long before we learned the physical manoeuvres
  -Now, when all else fails I just say 'no'; even when it makes no sense in the context of the conversation, I say 'no'. That helps reset my brain and remind me I am allowed to be assertive
• One thing that surprised me (though maybe shouldn't have) was how much of my voice I have gained, literally, in joining a community choir.
  -In my case, it is a women's choir, and important to me had no auditions as I did not even know if I could sing
  -I am fortunate as this is a group that is fairly casual and jokes around a lot, is accepting and welcoming of new members, and which also has an expectation that we will practise at home in order to make good music together
  -i.e. you might have to shop around a bit to find a group with the right 'fit' for you
  
• I am considering trying a stand-up comedy/improv course in the new semester, but might not as I find that terrifying
  -choir too, was terrifying when I started...
• I am trying to do more things that scare me, though sometimes do not have the courage  or must work up to having the courage
• I have also, and still do, find practising in front of the mirror helps
  -I use this tactic when I must, for example, make a presentation or lead an agenda item at a work meeting.
  -I also use it to help me in more general interactions. For example, when I have an upcoming meeting (with no presentation) I stand in front of the mirror practise saying phrases like 'I think Sally has a good idea', 'I agree with Bob about x', or if I am feeling really brave (or reckless), even 'I agree with Bob on x but think we might also need to consider y'.
  -I do not always end up using these phrases, but when appropriate I try and make one appropriate comment at a meeting, especially when it helps add to the positive energy of the group (generally safer than constructive criticism)
• I try to practise mindfulness -  by having a better sense of what I am thinking and feeling, I have a better sense of what I need and want
  -I literally pause regularly throughout the day and ask myself 'what am I feeling right now?' both in my feelings and in my body (my current T taught me this trick)
  -I am not always sure what to do with that information, but find it is useful to have it. E.g. 'I am feeling resentment because Bob took all of credit for the project that we worked on together.' I might not know how to deal with the situation, but at least I know that the bad feeling comes from Bob's action rather than my inner flaws, and I can then also (usually) refrain from snapping at the next person who speaks to me (except maybe Bob). I can then also ask a friend, a trusted colleague, or people on this board for input on what to do if I am at a loss.
  
• I try to keep track of progress and celebrate milestones.
  -E.g. when I first started practising expressing myself and being assertive, I bought a beautiful wall calendar and a bunch of stickers from the dollarstore. Then, I had a goal that each day I would express myself, use my voice, in someway: wishing the cashier good morning, asking for the time, agreeing with Bob at a meeting, complimenting a coworker on her pendant, etc.
  -Each day that I used my voice, I would put a sticker on the calendar. For big communications (perhaps disagreeing with Bob at the meeting) I would put on a big, fancy sticker. When I got 25 stickers (then 50, then 100 as I got better at it) I would reward myself with a walk in the big park (which I must take the bus to), a trip to the ice cream store for a small sundae, a new book (often from the 50 cent table at the library), etc.
  -Now, the day-to-day has become more routine but I still celebrate the milestones, especially when it was a difficult interaction, such as being assertive with my #$#@ boss, disagreeing with a friend, etc.

Really, practise, practise, practise. Unfortunately, that is the only way of gaining one's voice - practise. That, and getting to know your Self - what you think, what you want, what you like, how you feel, what you need, etc. The good news is that it really does get easier with practice.

I try to keep in mind the advice my first T gave me - 'it's better to assert yourself badly than not at all'. Of course, he meant assert rather than aggress. I started asserting myself by stumbling over my words, like you tumbling out a clump of ideas that do not make sense and often was not what I meant, etc. - I still do that sometimes. But my T at the time (and my current T actually) reassured me and congratulated me that I had tried. Now, with practice I am better at it but still do have stumbling moments (just as I am getting better with my singing but was not so great when I started and still do have times when I just cannot get the right notes). Now, I focus on the fact that I gave my best effort rather than whether or not I 'succeeded' in the conversation (e.g. whether or not I got agreement from the other person). So, when I have the difficult talk with my @#@$#@$ boss, my friend will ask 'how did it go?' and I will say 'badly, but I still get points for trying'. She agrees and congratulates me on keeping my cool and remaining assertive (or as much as I could in the circumstances).

I also keep in mind the advice of my current T and regularly ask myself 'how am I feeling right now?'. Sometimes I need to take a step back and figure it out. I have learned that it is OK to say to someone 'please let me think about that and get back to you' to give myself that space - Marti Olsen Laney in her excellent book The Introvert Advantage suggests that strategy, which I had not even known was an option before reading the book, but which I have employed somewhat successfully since. I have also found that if someone is aggressive or negative in response then that clues you in on who they are as a person (keeping in mind that sometimes they say no because they have been surprised by a newly-imposed deadline themselves).

Phew! This came out longer than expected, when really at the end of the day the take away messages are finding my voice seems, for me, to have been about knowing my Self better, and practising using my voice when I can. Also, that when I started out on this particular part of my journey I literally had no voice - I too would freeze and say nothing or would give the softest of whispers that I could not even hear myself (the whispering is still something I am working on, though at least now I know it is a flag I feel strongly about the issue). I have been practising finding and using my voice for a few years now. It does get easier with practice, and I still do stumble and lose my voice sometimes, but it is rewarding too. Where before people walked all over me, now I use my voice to say 'no' and to teach them how I would like to be treated. I use my voice to say 'I would like to have that' and 'I need that'. I do not always get what I want or need, and sometimes people do still try to take advantage of me (and occasionally still do). I must be honest and say the process is scary and can be painful, but overall I am finding that it has been worth the energy, emotions, and effort. Enough so that I plan to keep trying and to never turn back.

We survived our childhoods. So, we know that we have the strength to do this too; in in this case, we actually get something of great benefit from it.

Beware the delicious-looking poison apple. No fairytale ending.

I totally relate to this problem. When I went low contact with my NM she too became so warm and kind and nice to me. So, I felt happy and hope and maintained contact with her.

Then, I accomplished a major life goal, which I had worked extremely hard to achieve and was very proud of. When I shared it with her, she walloped me with a giant verbal and emotional slap. I have been completely no contact ever since. In hindsight, I think that my accomplishment brought out her normal evil, jealous, competitive self (OK, it's not normal, but I lack another word, and evil is normal for her).

I have since realized too that I had been inadvertently been playing our old game all that time (during low contact with 'warm mom'). Yes, she was being all warm and kind and nice to me. But, I think because I wanted a mom so badly, I had accidentally fallen back into the pattern of obedient, fawning, accommodating, dependent daughter. In looking back, I noticed that while in low contact with my NM, I had been down-playing the progress I had been making toward my goal, making disparaging remarks about myself and ability (or lack thereof) that I thought I had in (not) achieving my goal, etc. Essentially, I was lying to her about a huge part of my life. At the same time, I had gone back to the pattern of agreeing with her (even when I thought she was wrong), playing up how wonderful she is (though much of that was also a lie), and generally allowing our low contact interactions full of her 'love, warmth, and kindness' to be all about her and how great she is; a pattern that I had been working so hard to break. In fact before the NM's supposed warm-fuzzies, I had made enough progress that NM had often gone LC/NC with me - more accurately called the narc's silent treatment - because I had, for a while, started making boundaries and assertively expressing my own ideas about the world.

Now, I am no contact and my life overall is better. BUT, I do still struggle. I still do want to have a mom. I still do miss her (or at least the illusion I had of her) and have yearnings to connect (recognizing cognitively that we never had real connection, though emotionally still wanting it). One of my inner children wants a mom so badly that she sends me images and feelings from times when our NM was kind and warm and caring to us. She (the IC) does not see the big picture and how those moments, while perhaps occasionally authentic (?), generally were part of a bigger strategy on NM's part to maintain us as source of narcissistic supply and to maintain her image in our community as 'the perfect mother'. But, my IC still yearns for a mom... I still yearn for a mom... I am working on accepting that that option does not exist for me, and on mourning the loss. I am also working to parent my ICs to give them the love and safety and caring that they have always deserved but were cheated out of by our NM.

I am naturally curious so generally try to figure things out.

For me (completely anecdotally) I would get ticked off when my old T tried to figure out why my father, mother, and/or brother were abusive. I did not care what made them treat me badly and felt they could go to their own therapists to figure things out. I also really resented that while my T said that the exercise was to 'prove to me that my family was abusive due to their flaws rather than mine' I could tell (I am very intraspective) that for her is was a mental exercise... She was a crappy therapist (likely still is but she is no longer mine thank the Goddess).

BUT I did want to know how, of my many siblings I was chosen as the scapegoat in my family. That was important as it seemed that the only reason was that I was the scapegoat because there was something very wrong with me - I was blaming myself for it. I did a bunch of reading and rather than leading to self blame, what I discovered actually alleviated the self blame.

**spoiler alert**  usually the child who is chosen as the scapegoat is put in this role NOT because there is something wrong with that chid BUT because theres is something 'too RIGHT' about the child. The scapegoated child is usually the gifted, sensitive, conscientious, mature, and/or responsible child in the family. Such a gifted child is a threat to the parent's/parents' fragile ego(s) and so is demeaned and abused and dismissed at every turn in order to 'prove' to that child, any siblings, and of course to the parents that rather than there being 'something special' about the child there is something wrong.

Generally too, the scapegoated child is the one who notices the dysfunction and abuse in their families. These children might not necessarily know that the family is dysfunctional or abusive in an objective way (children often see their families as 'normal' even when they are abusive). But these children are the ones who notice that punishments are unfair, that rules have arbitrarily been changed, that a sibling got unfairly cheated out of a promised reward for a behaviour (no TV even though the homework was done), etc. This child is dangerous to an abusive family system and the parents who run it. Again, the scapegoating process, including the related gaslighting help to destroy the credibility of this child so that the family can continue to (dys)function in the abusive way that it always had.

So, from my perspective, OK supported by some research, it is generally good to figure out why you were scapegoated. However, I have a sense that asking family members for explanations is perhaps a misguided idea. These family members were all part of the same dysfunctioning and abusive system and all participated, actively or as unwilling/unwitting participants and witnesses in supporting that system. My suspicion (and experience) is that asking 'why was I the scapegoat' would bring responses that fit the family script. I got phrases such as  'you were always so sensitive', 'you were such a troublemaker', 'you were too mouthy', etc. all of which fit the family script better than the truth 'I am sensitive and empathetic' so 'I noticed when things were going wrong' (converted to troublemaker) and incorrectly thought that 'pointing out the problems would be helpful' (now called mouthy). I think some of my family members were actively lying to me, others were telling me what they believed because of what they had learned from our family's mythology.

The take away idea: if you were scapegoated there is a fairly high probability that it was because you were the gifted one in the family. It is also unlikely that family members will ever say that to you because the ones who know it will lie and the others believe that lies that the ones in the know tell (unless they have gone for a substantial amount of therapy or similar work themselves).

 barbidoll, it sounds like your ex is running out of narcissistic supply and is seeking more by trying to get you and your son all riled up. You have managed to successfully separate yourself from him - and congratulations on the courage and energy and effort you had to accomplish that!. Now, it seems like he is trying to hoover you back up, in part disgustingly using your son's emotions as a weapon against you. UGH!

Sending thoughts of strength to you. You were strong enough to get out. You are strong enough to stay out. The energy is to give a boost in this trying time.

I  understood the question, but then I am also an abstract thinker

I am still unfortunately unsure of the answer as I do not know enough people with CPTSD, especially enough to compare across cultures. My sense, however, is that you might be on to something. I can think of an analogy from a book 'the sociopath next door' by Martha Stout.

Yes, I recognize that ASPD (anti-social personality disorder, the new name for psychopaths and sociopaths) is a personality disorder and CPTSD is an anxiety disorder. I also recognize, as does Stout, that having a PD in no way equates to being a violent killer (though being a violent killer often equates to having ASPD). But for the purposes of a thought exercise in response to the question here goes...

Using data from the literature, Stout shows that rates of ASPD are fairly consistent across human populations no matter the cultures of the people involved (if I remember correctly Stout cites about 4% of people have ASPD). Stout then compares responses and outcomes of people with ASPD across cultures. Those with ASPD thrive on the admiration and approval of those around them. So, they are able to learn to adapt their behaviours to cultural ethos in which they live.

Stout argues (again from the literature) that in highly individualistic societies (she uses the U.S., likely because that is the place where much of the research is done, but other countries certainly match that ethos) those with ASPD thrive and are 'allowed' and able to wreak all kinds of havoc on those around them - no, not 'just' being serial killers but along the full scale from career criminal to garden-variety bully/abuser. I live in a highly individualistic society and regularly hear excuses for bullies and abusers because there is such an emphasis on individual expression people seem almost unable to say 'no, that behaviour is wrong even if it is individual expression!' 

In contrast, Stout then looks at societies that are more communally oriented. If I remember correctly, the example was villages in India. The are apparently, the same rates of those with ASPD in these communities as in the highly individualistic ones. However, the damage that those with ASPD is much more limited in the communally-oriented societies. In communally-oriented societies, those with ASPD (and everyone really) quickly learn that acting in ways that harm one equates to harming all and is taboo. Wanting (needing) the approval of those around them, and wishing to avoid their disapproval, those with ASPD learn to control their baser instincts and act in more acceptable community-oriented ways.

Hmmm... in skimming that over it occurred to me that in highly individualistic societies we have created a setting where those with ASPD are able to thrive and be "happy" (as much as anyone with that disorder can feel happy), while making everyone else miserable. In community-oriented societies the one with ASPD might be less "happy" and able to thrive, but everyone else is better off (though I fear perhaps for the spouse and/or children of those with ASPD in communally-oriented societies as the narcissistic supply must be met and there one of the only places to gain it would be in the privacy of one's own home). Food for thought... and a different thread.

OK, so getting back to the original question. I am unsure how different cultures affect the context/healing/lack of healing for those with CPTSD. But, from the analogy of those with ASPD I would think that culture would necessarily also affect those with CPTSD. But what would it look like? Would communally-oriented societies be more supportive, or, for example, would emotional deregulation be a frowned-upon behaviour? (I suppose it would depend on the understanding people have of or meaning that they put on emotional deregulation). Certainly, and anecdotally, it is difficult to have CPTSD in a individualistic society as too few are willing to lay blame at the foot of the abuser, and really at the dog-eat-dog world that created the context in which the abuse happened.

Interesting question. I need to head out for an appointment. But maybe later I will do some scholar googling on it.

I recently read an article in ScienceDaily that scientists have shown that people with PTSD have significantly different gut bacteria than those who do not, even controlling for trauma - those who experienced trauma and developed PTSD and those who did not. Those who developed PTSD had lover levels of the bacteria associated with proper functioning of the immune system, and related inflammation in the body.

The results are *correlations* rather than cause-and-effect, and the researchers are clear about that. But, whether the one came first or the other it starts to help make sense of the fact that so many who post here also have symptoms and illnesses related to the auto-immune system. The research is also promising as it might help to lead to relief of both the physical and psychological/emotional impacts of PTSD/CPTSD.

In a different thread, I became the third person to post about a shared love of libraries. So, I am starting a new thread to avoid completely usurping the original topic (the original is a very interesting one on how people chose their OOTF names).

So, this new thread is for a shared love of libraries.

For me, libraries have always been a safe haven. I learned to read before pre-school (I was about 2 yr. old at the time). I have been reading pretty much continuously ever since; I even read in the bath tub (but not the shower, even with my waterproof e-book reader  ). One of the positive things my NM did for us (me and my siblings) was to take us to the library from an early age. I have had a library card as long as I can remember.

Of all my siblings, I think the love of libraries only stuck with me. Overall, a positive factor in my life. In the summer breaks from school, where there was no where else to escape from my NM, abusive older brother, and needy younger siblings (I was the parentified one who raised them), there was the library. I would ride my bike there at least once a week, spending hours browsing the shelves, smelling the books, enjoying the quiet, safe calmness of the space. I would walk the rows of shelves sometimes picking a book at random on a topic completely unfamiliar to me. Other times, I would head straight for my favourite sections to see what was new by my favourite authors. Usually it was a bit of both. I would often spend the day there, just enjoying being at the library. Then, eventually I would have to go home, but I would do so with stacks of books that I would gobble up in hidden corners of my parents' home, and large backyard.

Now, I still love libraries. I still enjoy the smell of books and the quiet calmness and the ability to walk in and learn about anything that catches my curiosity. Books and libraries for me have been ways of feeding my hungry brain (hungry for knowledge, ideas, fantasies, etc.), ways to escape from my circumstances (less so now as I am healing), and safe havens of peace and quiet and enjoyment. The only word I can think of is 'angenehm' - it is a German word which really has no equivalent in English but is a mix of 'pleasant, enjoyable, good-feeling, comfortable, agreeable', and similar words. In short, the way that I feel in libraries.

Libraries. 

I think maybe we need to start a love of libraries thread. I too spent much time haunting libraries. I still love libraries. Libraries were my havens, especially during summer break from school where there was no where else to hide from my abusive parents and older brother and needy younger siblings. Plus, I love learning, browsing shelves in subject areas that are new to me, picking books from favourite sections. Reading and reading while there. Going home with stacks of books and gobbling them all up. Books and libraries have always been an escape and a haven for me.

I think I will start that thread... because... libraries 

Edited: to keep this thread from being usurped, I did start the libraries thread. This is a great thread; I am enjoying reading about how people chose their names and want to avoid going too far off the original topic.

I too agree that it is a good idea to pick and choose when to be vulnerable. I am far enough along on my healing journey that I can be more authentic and vulnerable with my friends. BUT I would NEVER show my 'real self' to a narcissist. Never.

Narcs use our energy as a food to try and fill-up their own emptiness. To give them my vulnerability would be too dangerous as it would give them ways to access and attack me in the future. Plus, it would serve no purpose. To be 'real' and 'vulnerable' in appropriate ways with my friends extends and deepens the friendships; it shows trust in the person to see my true self and love me anyway for it. A narc is unable to interact in healthy-friendship ways and so also incapable of deepening a friendship as a result of this type of show of trust. So, to show vulnerability to a narc would serve only to harm me and could never serve to create a deeper or better relationship with them.

From me, the narcs get avoidance, no contact, and when I must interact with them the grey rock technique. From me the narcs do not ever get my true self. They get only the boring, surface, bland politeness that I give them. They deserve nothing more from me, and I deserve to protect myself from them.

Hmmm.... is it wrong that mostly I am thinking 'the person who wrote the article does not really know very much about parrots'?