Messages

Hey Hope- good topic as I too feel uncomfortable with animals in clothes too, also animals doing tricks, etc.  For me it's because it is so disrespectful to the animals with whom we share this earth.  We put them in clothes and teach them to do tricks to entertain and amuse us which is kind of how I felt as a kid.  I was dressed up and trained to do "tricks" like smile when I felt like crying. 

It just seems to indicate a profound lack of respect, and it objectifies and demeans others be they animal or human.

I am currently reading a book called Supernormal by Dr. Meg Jay. In one section, Jay reviews research about children from abusive homes vs. those from good and good-enough families. The research shows that children from abusive families are much better at noticing facial expressions related to some emotions, particularly anger than other children,  and anger recognition was consistent across the studies even when there were mixed findings for other emotions. For us, it has been a survival mechanism to notice anger in others as quickly as possible so that we can adjust our behaviour (another skill that abused children excel in vs. their parents) or otherwise respond, usually in the fight-flight-freeze-fawn modes.

I wonder if the ability that you and Little Hope have to really see the vivid details of others' faces relates to this ability to see and respond to anger. In a new situation your body automatically read each person to determine safe or unsafe. Being able to see the vivid details of their faces would be instrumental in making these decisions. Once your body decided someone was likely safe then it could return to normal vision and move on to the next person.  (?)

Hello Hope (and Little Hope),

I am sorry to hear that you are unable to be close to your sister. Unfortunately, divide and conquer is a common strategy by dysfunctional and/or abusive parents of their children. This strategy both gives narcissistic supply  (ah the thrill of watching the siblings squabble  ) and keeps the siblings from comparing notes and banding together as they realize the games that their parent(s) are playing against them.

Unfortunately too, sometimes these wedges formed in early childhood are difficult to overcome even in adulthood. It is understandable that you check your sister's FB page; you are curious about who she is and who you are in relation to her. I hope you are able to work things out with her. I managed to rework and rebuild relationships with my sisters but remain out of touch with my brothers, even though I would really be overjoyed to have contact again with one of them... It is a mixed bag that seems to depend largely on whether and how the siblings feel about reconnecting.

For the uncomfortableness around animals in clothing, I am unable to say what is going on inside you and Little Hope, but reading your posting I realized that I have generally been uncomfortable with animals in clothing too - both the costumed pets people post on the internet and the type of art and story that you cited with animals in clothes, etc. Reading you posting gave me a chance to reflect on the source of discomfort (thank you for that). For me, I am guessing that animals in clothing represent two types of gaslighting both of which push my own buttons related to the types of abuse I experienced in my FOO.

The first type of gaslighting comes largely from the animals in costumes videos on the internet. I avoid those videos like the plague. They do not so much make me uncomfortable as angry. While some of these animals seem indifferent to their costumes, many show fear, distress, anger, and other signs of upset for being forced into these clothes. The gaslighting comes in when the humans, instead of removing the distressing clothing, videotape and laugh and enjoy the pet's discomfort - UGH! And the comments talk about how 'cute' and 'funny' it all is... double UGH! I realize that for me, this gaslighting of the pets pushes the button laid in me when my family (largely mother and older brother) would torment me then when I gave the predictable and entirely reasonable responses of anger and upset, would gaslight me, telling me I had no sense of humour and ought to loosen up, it was just teasing, etc. They never cared about my feelings they cared only about getting narcissistic supply from my reactions - these video posters similarly seem to not care at all about their pets' distress, only about getting good footage to garner more likes on social media. I emphasize greatly with these pets.

The other form of gaslighting, for me, I think comes more so from the animals in suits and human clothing in art (e.g. dogs playing poker, animals in the Wind in the Willows, etc.). I think, for me, these portrayals of animals in human situations pushes the buttons of being expected to be something that I am not. By putting toad in clothing, for example, the story is saying 'you need to stop being the toad that you are and instead be the human-being-creature that we demand that you be even though that portrayal betrays the being that you really are.' I think that the clothing on the animals emphasizes both the need to not just wear a human facade but also the demand to play the specific role defined by the type of clothing the animal is wearing, all entirely without consideration of the animal's own beingness. OK, yes, I am probably reading into it based on my internal buttons  ... But, for me, what I think I am responding to is a form of gaslighting that denies the beingness that the character has in favour of an illusion that the controller wishes that character to portray. I lived with that demand to portray a facade of who I was (and often even who I was not) to please my NM and 'earn' her - ahem - 'love'. It has taking me a long time to figure out who I am as a separate entity with my own Self and Beingness separate from my NM (my username relates to the fact at one time I could not choose between chocolate and vanilla ice cream because I really did not know my own preferences).  Again, I emphasize greatly with the animals in these human-like portrayals,

I cannot know if any of that applies to your situation and inner thoughts and feelings, but I do appreciate the opportunity to learn more about what is going on inside me. Little Vanilla says thank you too.

Wow! Elphanigh, that is great. Making boundaries is difficult, and to do so with a narcissist is Olympic gold-medal-winning accomplishment.

And, to be finding your music again. I am so happy for you. I think music is one really wonderful path to Self, and love, and live, and connection. Plus, it is just enjoyable to do.

Congratulations! And great job!!

I had my regular appointment with my T yesterday.

I was feeling good because in the last little while I had been practising boundaries and assertiveness, coincidentally including having heated discussions with two friends (separate times) where we disagreed about ideas that were fairly important to us but then were still friends afterward. This is a new development for me and terrifying because when I was growing up disagreeing with, ahem, 'loved ones' (my FOO, especially abusive parents) meant isolation, derision, punishment, and abandonment. To disagree with friends was tremendously difficult because I was scared they would leave me as a result, but I thought having my own Self was more important so I had those discussions.

During my discussions with my T, out of the blue, I responded to one of his questions with 'Because I am a Person'. Then realized that I absolutely meant it, and that I had never, not ever, said that before in such a way and never, not ever, have I believed it so firmly. I could tell from the look on my T's face that he had realized that too. I took a moment to feel that and let it settle (feeling feelings is a huge part of the therapy I am doing now) and realized that I believe that I am a Person in my whole being. Every part of me is happy with that idea. I have boundaries, and thoughts, and feelings, and ideas, and successes, and mistakes, and Being that belong to me, and just to me. Because I am a Person.

I am a Person.

And it feels good.

I am a Person.

Wow! I have been working for a while on an art project that is based on the terrible things that my family, largely my uNM, said to me, and which haunt me still. For me the big ones are:

-you're so obstinate
-you're so bossy
and, the one that haunts me most
-you're too big for your britches

All of which, of course, said any time I did or said anything that distinguished me as a separate human being with thoughts and feelings of my own, and especially those that differed from NM.

Others that bothered me a lot:
-you should have been a boy
my NM miscarried a boy before becoming pregnant with me - and they selectively practise a religion that says boys are better
-you are such a tomboy
NO, I was NOT a boy, I was a beautiful spirited girl!
To be told both 'you should have been a boy' and 'you are doing girl wrong' messed with my head.

I am an HSP and have done a lot of reading on the topic and have been very active in the HSP community where I live. From what I have read and from experience, being quiet, shy, and/or having performance anxiety are not inherently part of being an HSP. Yes, some HSPs are shy, etc. but these factors are not part of defining the trait, nor is being more prone to bullying. Plus, many people who are shy, etc. are not HSPs. HSP is an inborn trait. Shyness and performance anxiety are learned behaviours that can be unlearned, and being more prone to bullying is often a question of having/not having healthy personal boundaries (and boundaries are also learned rather than being part of the HSP trait). Quietness is, in fact, more likely in HSPs but that is generally because we are also more likely to be introverts than extroverts, but again, it is not an inherent part of being an HSP, even for those of us who are introverts. And yes, we do have a lower threshold of overwhelmed that non-HSPs, but with good boundaries that is manageable, and really is not that much different than someone who must watch their sugar or salt intake, or who cannot eat gluten, etc.


The problem, I think and my reading indicates, is that in abusive and dysfunctional families the HSP child tends to bear the brunt of the abuse/dysfunction. We are:

• most likely to notice what is going wrong and to be emotionally affected by it;
• to get pushback for pointing out what we notice;
• to be put into the black sheep role - being different is being a target in these families;
• to be super conscientious and so to fall more readily into codependency and people-pleasing behaviours (and also often less likely to be rebellious);
• to feel the dysfunctional/abuse energy in the family and to be affected by it;
• to make others in the family feel threatened and so get pushback (they can sense that we can see through their shenanigans so they target us and gaslight us and teach us not to trust our instincts to prevent us from calling them out);
• etc.

We are more likely to be targeted for abuse in abusive families and are affected more by it than our non-HSP siblings. Suffering abuse affects children, and being the brunt of the abuse affects us the most, especially as our trait already makes us more vulnerable to the effects of abuse.

So, the problem is not in the HSP trait in and of itself - HSP-ness does not cause shyness, anxiety, being bullied, etc. HSP children who grow up in good and good enough families are able to thrive and do well without and of these problems. But, those of us who are HSPs and who grew up in abusive homes generally suffer more for it than non-HSPs in abusive homes. That set of factors, in turn, can lead us to be shy, anxious, prone to bullying, etc.

The good news is, while HSP is an inborn trait, the problems that come from being an HSP in an abusive home are all learned responses. If we learned them in the first place, we can learn new responses in the second place. The unlearning can be painful, and challenging, and frustrating, and often requires support from a therapist, but that is true for anyone who is trying to overcome the challenges incurred from growing up in an abusive home, HSP or not. We as HSPs can learn to feel more confident in our own skins, to trust ourselves more, to make healthy boundaries, and to have fulfilling lives and relationships.

There is such a thing as a happy and empowered HSP. With the help of my friends and therapist, I am well on my way there. With support and practise you will be well on your way there too. 

I agree with the others. It is absolutely OK to say no without giving a reason, and the broken record technique can be a useful tool.

I have some sense too that if you disclose T's abuse at this moment, it might turn into a 'songbird ruined J's wedding' discussion rather than a 'T was absolutely wrong, that never should have happened, how can we support songbird?' discussion. Of course the latter is what should happen but unfortunately, most of us on this forum grew up in families that generally did/do the opposite of what ideally should happen. It sounds as if your family (songbird) is in this category of doing something different than should (where 'should' stands for 'the morally appropriate thing' and/or 'what good and good-enough families would do').

As someone who has never tried reporting CSA as an adult, I cannot offer insight into that process; and even if I had, I still could not for your particular situation. However, whether you report or not, I encourage you to find supportive others who will stand by you through the process of reporting or not reporting as you decide - friends, family members you can rely on (if any), a therapist, someone from your local rape relief-type organization (they are often accepting of those dealing with CSA rather than only current situations), support from this forum, etc. Dealing with CSA is a big challenge whether reported or not. Having others' support can help ease the burden of it. I also encourage you to remember to practise self-care, especially during this stressful time. Whatever self-care looks like to you - warm baths, cuddling with a pet, meditation, walking in the park, a hobby, etc., etc. please do your best to try to work that into spaces in your life.

Sending healing and strength thoughts and energies to you as you move forward.

I have been no contact with my parents for more than seven years, and low contact for several years more than that (including several attempts at no contact before getting hoovered up again). I have been making peace with the idea that my parents never really loved me. My mother is an uNP and my father an enabler with abusive, explosive rage. I suffered all forms of abuse at their hands.

I have found a good therapist, whom I have been seeing for three years. I have been working hard at recovery and at having a good life with good loving people in it. I have largely been succeeding, with some snags, obstacles, and hiccups along the way I am moving forward step by step. I have even started being good with the idea that I will likely be spending the holidays on my own (my friends are out of town with their families and the parts of my family that I still speak to are far away). I have had a rough few months (fighting suicidal ideation, etc.) and am finally getting my feet under me.  I have made plans for self care days with activities that feel good to me and have actually been looking forward to a nurturing break.

Then - KAPOW! I get home today and discover that my NM has sent me a Christmas card. UGH! Seriously?!? How does she always seem to know when I am starting to feel a bit better??? I feel like someone has tried to pull the rug out from under me. UGH!!! It has been years since I have heard from her, the last about four years ago with emotional blackmail with the veiled threat that my father was ill and I must see them before 'it's too late'... then blissful nothing. But now THIS!! Do the hoovering attempts ever stop?!?

Please, someone tell me that the hoovering will stop at some point... OK maybe don't because I suppose I unfortunately would not believe it anyway.

UGH!!

blues_cruise that is great - the feeling your feelings part, anyway. It is difficult to feel feelings, especially uncomfortable ones like sadness, and especially when we already have a pattern of response that we must first overcome that hinders us from feeling our feelings. You did it! Great job!

Plus, feeling feelings is a HUGE step towards healing. So, great job there too.

Redrat, thank you for sharing such a hopeful story.

The world needs more people like this nurse. We need more people like this nurse. I am glad that you have her on your side.

I like the idea of superhero therapy, and have on occasion sought them out myself.

But, I have also hit the wall that virtually all of the superheroes out there (in the comic-book-and-other-mass-media sense) are male. And the female ones tend to be half naked and/or weaker/'less' than their male counterparts. So, I have never really been able to find a superhero that I connect with and am often triggered by the ones that are out there (I was called a 'tomboy' as a child because apparently I was 'doing gender wrong' by playing outside instead of baking with dollies in the kitchen). Admittedly, Violet and Helen on the Incredibles are fairly good ones.

Yesterday, I learned a new word 'manterruption': when a man speaks over top of a women as if she were not even there.

This happened to me at a seminar at work yesterday. During the Q&A several men asked questions of the male speaker; one of these men even taking up much more than his share of the Q&A time. Finally, there was a space for me to ask my question. Before I had gotten even half a sentence out, the speaker spoke right over the top of me, responding to the question that he thought I was asking rather than the question that I would have asked had I been allowed to speak. I spun into an emotional flashback and missed both his response 'to me' and the rest of the session. I left the session shaking and upset and went to hide in my office. Then, I got angry.

I went back to the seminar room. The speaker and some of the audience were still there, so I waited until he had moved away from the main group (almost chickening out but holding my ground). I then approached him and politely but assertively said 'I feel frustrated because I tried to ask a question but you interrupted me halfway through the sentence'. During this sentence he tried to jump in and interrupt me to make excuses, so I had to start the sentence again and repeat the whole thing. I could see him realizing that he had just done it again. I continued 'you let the men finish their questions but spoke right over me while I was talking. I need you to know that. I need you to be aware of that because I felt really dismissed.' Fortunately, this time he got it. He apologized for having spoken over me and thanked me for pointing it out to him. I am not sure that he fully got it but do think that he got it enough that he will take it away and think about it.

I feel so proud of myself for having done this. Partly, I am happy because the speaker teaches post-secondary classes and really does need to be aware that he does this because if he did it to me, a colleague, it is likely he is also doing so to his students who are somewhat lower on the arbitrary hierarchies that exist in academia (and the students are in much less position to object). Mostly, I am happy because that was REALLY difficult for me to do - I had to go and cry in the washroom afterward because it was so emotionally stressful to me. I am (re)realizing how strongly conditioned by my FOO I was that I both had the initial response to accept being spoken over as if my voice does not matter, and that it was also so difficult to speak up to an older man about his poor behaviour. In my family my NM was the largest, most obvious problem and speaking up against her was lethal. But, I was also raised in a 'father knows best' household (all of us ignored mother behind the scenes), and had a father who would explode in vicious rage-filled temper tantrums when thwarted by someone lower on the hierarchy than he was. So, to stand up to someone who is so much like my father was particularly difficult and I DID IT. And I know that I was right to do it. I feel no guilt or regret, just proud of myself for standing up for myself. I DID IT!

First, great job in asking for your tent back. That was a difficult task and took a great deal of courage on your part. I hope that in the midst of this kerfuffle that you have managed to take a moment to feel good about yourself for that.

After that, I think Rainagain might be on to something. Yes, you want your tent back. If someone borrowed my tent I would want it back too, both for the principle and for the fact that I would hate the idea of having to get a new tent because I find shopping stinks. But, I am with Rainagain in wondering if you might not also be seeking reconnection with this, ahem, 'friend'.

The fact that this friend calls herself a narcissist is a red flag. Years ago, when I started on my healing journey and still was dismissing and ignoring my instincts about people I was reading self-help books on how to be in a good relationship and how to spot those who are poor choices for friendship and romantic relationships. The advice from one book (apologies because I can no longer remember the title to provide a source) was to the effect was 'if someone tells you that they are an a$$hole then believe them, or at the very least avoid them'. The idea are:

>quite often people who are a$$holes (narcissists, bullies, etc.) will tell you that so that they can take advantage of you and treat you badly and when you complain can respond 'but I told you that I am an a$$hole'.

>Alternatively, the person is not really an a$$hole but is saying so for another reason, e.g. to seek reassurance from you (us) that they are not a$$holes. The problem here is that this person is in a bad place emotionally and psychologically (for which we can sympathize and empathize) but instead of seeking help from a professional who can guide them forward on their healing journeys, they are seeking out a co-dependent who can subsume their own identities, lives, and healing journeys in order to spend their time bolstering the ego of the insecure person who is unwilling to do their own healing work.

Either way, the person is a poor choice for healthy friendship.

So, I hate to say it but you might have lost both your tent and your friendship... But if that is the case you will, at least, be in a better place for not being with someone who claims narcissism as a personality trait and the cost will have been your tent (rather than your car, home, other relationships, self-esteem, and even Self).

I am realizing that the complex depends on what happens to the rest of the phrase. Currently the 'complex' is in the context of 'as opposed to regular PTSD'. If the phrase is changed entirely then complex is possible but not necessarily necessary.

p.s. is post #1 the first one on the thread where we started talking about the naming?