Messages

Thank you all for the support, the courage to share your own stories, and tips of strategies that have worked for you.

I have seen my T recently, which has helped some. This voice tells me that I am worthless, a burden to be around, and so inherently horrible that I must avoid people or risk causing them harm with my very presence, etc. My T has been trying to get me to believe that the voice is wrong. Right now, I think I know that it is lying but I am yet not entirely believing it. I have tried to talk to this entity but it has no interest in listening; it just wants to destroy me. In other cases, I have been able to visualize the inner being that is talking to/yelling at me and have generally managed to figure out what is wrong and develop better coping mechanisms. In this case, really, I have tried many strategies to no avail.

I have, however, figured out an important factor that seems to be helping. This voice is not responding to me in the way that other parts of my inner self do because it is not really 'of me'. It is a poison planted in me by my NM, and she would never listen to any voice except hers either.

Also, a very important and somewhat empowering discovery that I have had from there is that the voice really is different than a voice I had many years (a good couple decades) ago that was of me and was telling me to kill myself. At that time, I was unfortunately listening to that voice but fortunately found my fist T in time. What I have realized is that at that dark time, I was investing a great deal of time and energy into figuring out how to kill myself. BUT now, I am spending a great deal of time and energy concentrating on how to NOT kill myself.  This is a painful, scary, time- and energy-draining time but I am at least holding on to the idea that I am at least looking in the right direction this time.

Right now, I am just (well more than 'just') holding on to my Self as tightly as I can, and with whatever energy I can dredge up after that I am doing my best,  adamantly and stubbornly, to take steps to move in the right direction, even if it is the tiniest step such as ensuring that I brush my teeth in the morning, I am taking that step.

I refuse to let this horrible voice win. Right now, I am unsure quite what to do about it, except hold on and take tiny steps forward. But, if I do nothing else I will hold on and take steps because I cannot and will not allow it to beat me. I appreciate all of your support in helping me to hold on and take those steps. 

Eyessoblue - that is great news. It is wonderful that you found a therapist who is willing and able to have that discussion with you and who is willing and able to help you through the hurdles you have been experiencing. I am so happy for you that you have found this and hope as you move forward in your journey. We are indeed lucky that we have found the persons we need (and want) to help us move forward.

For this one, I will say a general trigger warning for the topic but there are no specific details about abuse.

I have this awful voice, this horrible, terrible part of me that hates me and is trying to kill me. It has told me it hates me, and exactly why it does (such horrible, hateful words it has for me and about me).

It tells me to throw myself in front of the train during my commute. Recently, I went hiking on a trail that had a large cliff. I had to turn back as it urged me to run off the edge. How is it fair for it to bother me on my recreation time?!? How is it fair to bother me at all?!?

**I** am NOT suicidal. I very much want to live (case in point, I left the bluff area). I have worked really hard to get where I am in life, I have worked really hard to get where I am on my healing journey. I am continuing to work very hard on both. BUT that horrible, terrible, part of my hates me and keeps sending horrible, terrible suggestions.

I have told my T about this problem. I was scared as I was sure he would get the people with the butterfly nets to haul me away (pardon the noir humour but I am in a noir mood). But, he (the T) reassured me that that is not the case. Ideation and fighting are different and I am fighting. But that voice. It is getting louder and more insistent. I continue to fight but it is making me so tired and so scared. I wish Monday were not a holiday as it means my T appointment got bumped into later in the week. I want to just hide in bed until then but I must work in between.

I hate that there is this part of me that hates me so much. I hate that I have to fight it so much. I hate that I have no idea what to do about it - I have tried fighting, discussing, negotiating, ignoring, and even befriending it. It has no interest in anything except hating me. I plan to hold on and keep trying, but some days I am less hopeful than others about ever beating it.


I just needed to tell that to someone(s) who might understand where I am coming from.

I know that I am somewhat late in commenting here, but a) the topic turned out to be really triggering for me, and b) I recently went on holiday with no real online activity

89 and eyes, I hope you are both settling and figuring things out, whether you opted to continue with EMDR or not. I am hoping too that you had a chance to talk with your Ts and got constructive results.

I think, as many people noted, that it is critical to have the proper therapist - both someone well versed in the technique and someone with whom you can build a rapport (both points true no matter which therapeutic technique(s) are used). In my case, neither point was true. Unfortunately, at the beginning I was not far enough along my healing journey to have seen the red flags. When I started seeing them I did not know what to do about them. Worse, my T manipulated me in the same way as my NM, which made her machinations both difficult for me to see and, at the time, virtually impossible for me to defend against. However, with the help of a couple friends, to whom I went for a reality check, I began asserting my needs and wants, and concerns (often weakly, and generally politely). My T felt very threatened by my questioning of what was going on. Eventually, she fired me. As traumatic as that was at the time, it was also a favour as it freed me to seek someone else.

I had a meta-discussion with my current T about what happened, the fallout on me, and what that meant going forward in any therapeutic relationship in the future. We made a deal: I will tell him (weakly, politely, rudely, writing it down, using charades - yes that actually is an option) in some way, shape or form) if I am feeling uncomfortable about any thing going on during our therapy appointments. In turn, he regularly checks in with me to touch base on how I am feeling about how things our going, the ways we interact, etc. So far so good. We have never had a falling out but that is largely because we never allow concerns to grow and fester and lead to a falling out. We have both kept our word; I have only had very minor concerns, and my 'new' T has responded constructively to my thoughts and feelings, and so trust is built and progress is made.

Yes, that is the key, with any type of therapeutic strategy(ies), building trust and rapport with the therapist, and having a therapist who can be trusted and open to feedback and concerns.

p.s. Sanmagic7 - I think if I had had a therapist like you I would have been much better off. Though, now it sounds like I do have a therapist like you and I am much better off. Your clients are fortunate to have you. 

[re-traumatizing]

I am now speaking from personal experience (plus see other disclaimers below).

NO, NO, NO!!! It is not 'self-sabotage', or 'just needing practice feeling feelings', or 'normal'. (well, actually it is 'normal' in a sense but in the way that feeling pain when someone hits you is 'normal' rather than 'this is an acceptable way of being' 'normal'). For *some* (I would argue 'many' but have no data beyond anecdotal as it is not well researched) EMDR is actively harmful. EMDR can be (is?) tremendously re-traumatizing. Re-traumatizing is the LAST thing that someone with CPTSD needs. Although many mental health professionals still practise EMDR, many others are recognizing that this technique is not the panacea that some believe it to be. Again, for many of us it is actively harmful. It is NOT you, it IS the technique!

For years, I saw a therapist whose only tool was EMDR. For years, I got worse and worse. And for years, I got blamed for not doing it right - overall it was a lot like faith healers; if you fail to be cured it was not the fault of the healer but that of the client for not having enough faith. UGH! But, NO. EMDR IS re-traumatizing and that is the last thing that someone with CPTSD needs. Aside from that, there was for me always the problem of 'find the incident that caused that reaction'. I finally said to the therapist 'I can name about four times in my life that did not contribute to that reaction. The rest of my life did, which should I choose?' In other cases, I have the feelings and emotions, and a number of body sensations, but no 'real' memories (as is commons in CPTSD) - there is no incident in my memory to replay. Again, the blame - 'you're self-sabotaging', 'you're resisting treatment, etc'. NO, I was telling the truth - something a client ought to be able to do with one's therapist.

Finally, well not actually finally, but finally to keep this post a reasonable length, I always had the sense that emdr never really 'cured' the problem, it just put a bandaid over the feelings of it without ever dealing with the underlying issues. **potential trigger here - highlight the text if you would like to read it.** I use the example of my younger sister. When we were small, she fell on a broken bottle and cut her knee. Her knee 'healed' but continued to cause her large amounts of pain. Finally, my mother took her to the doctor, who discovered that a chunk of glass was still embedded in her knee. The doctor removed the glass and my sister finally actually healed. To me, emdr is like wanting to heal without removing the glass. For those who did not read the potential trigger - emdr for me was covering up the problem without actually dealing with it; I no longer felt the emotional upset/upheaval of the abusive incidents but also still carried them, and I believe that they were still 'active' even though I could not directly access the related emotions. I suspect that much of my later 'feeling like a wreck' was due to these unprocessed, but now hidden, emotions pushing their way back out in an effort to be properly heard and processed. emdr turns off the emotions but does not really process them. Again, failing to process emotions is the LAST thing that someone with CPTSD needs.

Now, I see a 'new' (for over two years 'new' ) therapist, who practises sensory motor psychotherapy. Here, the therapist carefully leads the client to feel and process emotions and feelings related to abuse, and to physically undertake actions that the client needs/wishes to make to help process the emotions that were 'trapped' at the time of abuse - i.e. the client could not enact flight or fight so the emotions could not be released at the time. In therapy the client is able to safely enact a response to finally release that energy from the body. This form of therapy also allows for the processing of un-remembered memories (so to speak) as it works with the emotions and body sensations, which can be processed even if the client has not full memory of what happened. The therapist also has the job to monitor the client to ensure that she/he remains safe and does not go so far into a session as to cause re-traumatizing - there is no supposedly 'instant cure', because the sessions are careful with no re-traumatizing it sometimes takes a session or two to work through an event/emotion. Sometimes too, you work a bit then work on other things for a bit, then come back to something when you and your body are ready to re-visit the particular event/emotion. No, this is not the only type of therapy for CPTSD, nor is it one that would work for everyone (though it has been doing great, leaps-and-bounds healing for me). But it, along with other, usually related therapies, helps a person safely PROCESS rather than cover-up or avoid abuse-related emotions. And that processing, at least according to experts such as Bessel Van Der Kolk, is the way out of the black hole of CPTSD.



Disclaimers: I speak only from personal experience. I have no training in the mental health field. Yes, I have also done a huge amount of reading on this topic, but unfortunately do readings only for personal information/interest so cannot cite sources. Yes, I agree that some people think that emdr works for them. I also agree that each individual has every right to choose whichever therapy works for them. Yes, I also agree that any type of treatment is a factor not only of the treatment itself but also the therapist and the client and the dynamic between the two.

BUT I did need to speak up as I also firmly believe that it is WRONG to blame a client, whether overtly or accidentally or with good intention or not, when a therapy does not work for that individual. Emdr, like any therapy, sometimes just does not work for some people, even people who are participating fully in the therapy, who are not resisting treatment, who are not self-sabotaging, and who are genuinely giving their all to get well. Even then, sometimes a particular treatment does not work for some individuals. And even then, some treatments can be harmful to some individuals. And those factors are true even if the particular treatment has been useful to someone else.

It is important to recognize that not every treatment works for every individual and even that some treatments can be harmful to some individuals. Otherwise, the individual is left feeling that there is something wrong with them for not responding the way that they are 'supposed to respond' (and really, being told again that 'there is something wrong with you' is another last thing that someone with CPTSD needs). If a therapy is not working for you consider that it might not be  NOT you; it might, indeed, be the technique, the therapist, and/or a combination of the technique, the therapist and the dynamic between you. I would even suggest this in the face of so-called self-sabotage and resistance. If a therapy and/or therapist is right for you then it/they would help you work through those factors rather than entrench them; your instincts are often good about what you need (even though abusive situations teach us otherwise). If your instincts are rejecting a technique it is time to look at that technique and to talk this over with your therapist performing it to see if there is a way to work through the resistance or if a new technique is needed. A good therapist is open to having this discussion. A 'red flag' therapist shuts down the discussion with 'that's normal', 'you're self-sabotaging', etc. Even if those statements are true, they provide inadequate support to the client suffering these challenges.

Good for you - it takes courage to move away from your FOO, good, bad, or indifferent.

Unfortunately, what is happening now sounds fairly 'normal' (for want of a better word) in this context. When I moved out of my childhood home, in my case to leave an abusive mother, I too had a craving to see my family, olfactory hallucinations, etc. From participation on this and other support sources, it seems like many of us have this type of response, as unfortunate and painful as that is (yay you are 'normal' - for want of a better word). The upside is that over time and with work (often with a therapist) this response lessens and for longer and longer periods of times disappears.

It is like we are programmed by our FOO to feel and behave in certain ways - usually those that benefit them rather than us. When we move away, it is often difficult to then know how to feel or behave, and our selves try to seek refuge in the familiar, even if we know that the familiar is ultimately unhealthy and even harmful to us. Good for you that you have resisted that temptation (and OK too if occasionally you slip and make contact).

My sense is that working on building a life beyond your FOO, e.g. finding hobbies you enjoy, people you like, practising self-care activities, etc. seems to help the transition process. Finding and developing self seems to help with the reprogramming process - it helps to replace the faulty/harm script that has been embedded in us by our abusers and to replace it with new programming that is beneficial to us.

Sending good-energy thoughts to you during this transition period. 

I have such a strange problem. I have been making progress with my new T (not that new as I started seeing him over 2 years ago). I have been learning to have boundaries, trust my gut, interact with people, etc. As a result, I have started for the first time in my 40+ years of life been developing friendships with good, decent people, who treat me well, know me for who I am and still want to be friends with me (that last part continues to astonish me - ah, something to talk to the T about).

The problem? The situation is freaking me out.  I have no idea how to handle friendships. I am also finding that a part of me is certain that making friends will literally kill me. Aside from that, that part of me is trying to really kill me so that I have to enact strategies such as standing very far from the edge of the subway platform (not suicidal but fighting the part of me that wants to kill me for having friends). I have spoken to my T about these issues and he is helping me work through them.

But in the meantime, I have been isolating to the point that my friends worry about me - I do not return phone calls or emails, and worry that I will lose my friends over this behaviour. The problem? They know me, all of me, know what I am going through and understand and are patient. That should not be a problem but their care triggers me more and an incredibly negative positive feedback loop has been created.

ARGH!!! How unfair is that?!? I have worked so hard and my seeming success is becoming my downfall. ARGH!!!

Does it ever end? Will there ever be a time when I can just stop struggling with this? Will every step forward lead to retaliation by my inner demons? I want to have friends, but I am afraid of friendship. ARGH!!!

Sorry, I just needed to vent. Argh!

I agree with the others. I have found that talking to my inner beings has been much more productive than trying to fight them or shut them down.

I am not sure that I fully agree that the inner child is the true authentic self, though I do not full disagree either...

Like some of the other posters, I started the process with some skepticism, but have learned that the process is useful in the healing process. Like one or two others, I also have found that I have more than one IC - currently four and counting.

Are these inner children my authentic self? That is difficult to answer. I grew up in an abusive home (again like many others here). So, from day one my inner self was undermined, and full-on attempts were made by my NM to obliterate my Self altogether. Somehow, I held on to pieces of me but are they my true Self? I think, yes, these inner children are genuine aspects of who I am as a human being. BUT, because I really never developed a full sense of self as a child, I am not sure that any of my inner children, or even all of them together can add up to the full, true me.

Perhaps I am reluctant to embrace the idea because I have also been working really hard both in therapy and in other areas of my life to develop a sense of self, who I really am, what I like and do not like, where my boundaries are, etc. I cannot discount the progress made from that work, and the I think the results of it also make up parts of my authentic self.

I think also that I am shying away from the idea of my IC being my authentic self because it seems to set in stone the idea that what I have is what I get. The concept seems to be fairly fatalistic, leaving no room for growth. Definitely, and thankfully, I am a different person than I was even a few years ago. My inner children continue to carry parts of me, but they also live in the past - a past that affects me in positive, negative, and neutral ways, and a past that I am learning and working to incorporate into my present and future but still my past. I shudder to think that there is no room for creation and development of self in the present. The holding on to the IC as the authentic self seems to place these limitations on people.

So, are my inner children my authentic self? I think yes, certainly parts of me are there. But, I think not fully as I continue to develop my Self.

It's funny. I have never seen this type of memory loss listed in any of the 'symptoms of CPTSD (or even PTSD)'; usually the only memory concerns relate to trauma-related amnesia and/or repressed memories of events.

I think, however, that the people making the lists have missed this other type of memory loss, because I have it too. I used to have a great memory. Now, I forget some of the most basic of information, like my friends' names, pets, jobs (how embarrassing); why I went to the store; etc.

I was going to say 'someone needs to research this more'. But in all honesty, 'someone' needs to research CPTSD more overall.

I know that I am late coming to this posting, but have had a bad few months and so am currently late coming to many things in my life right now... 

I too have had, and unfortunately, am currently having, difficulty sleeping. I think I will definitely try Candid's masseur idea; that sounds blissful.

In the meantime I have found some strategies that helped me. They might/might not help you.

Sometimes, I wake up with the 'I forgot to do x' or 'I need to do y' or any number of thoughts related to my endless to-do lists and appointments, etc. Of course, these thoughts lead to fretting and anxiety. Lately, I have been trying with some success telling that part of my brain 'thank you for reminding me of that. It is important that I remember to do y. Please, tell me again at a time when I can do something about that'. So far, so good BUT the key is that I must then actually deal with y when I am able to do so, or at least consciously decide that y actually does not need doing after all - I must in some way purposefully take y off my to-do list, otherwise, my brain wakes me up about it and about x and r, q, s, p, b, and l. Only this time it does not trust my words and does not let me return to sleep.

When I have bad dreams, I have for a while been using a trick I learned in my self-defence class. The teachers of this class know that taking the class, especially at the start, often churns up strange/bad dreams in the students. The trick they teach is: immediately after the bad dream wakes you up, replay the dream but this time give it a different, more desirable ending. That tactic has helped me for nightmares related to taking the class but also more generally.

I hope that helps and that you have already started sleeping better, and will continue to sleep better.

Hello,

I just wanted to wish everyone a

Happy International Women's Day!

Yup, I too got misdiagnosed a few times. When arguing that 'no, that diagnosis doesn't fit' the responses were inevitably 'you're in denial'. I finally said to one therapist 'I GET that something is not quite right in me, but it is a DIFFERENT not quite right than what you are saying'. His response? 'Then what do you think it is?' Of course, I had no answer; unlike him I had not gone to school to learn psychology. But of course my not knowing proved not only that I was in denial but that, because I finally got frustrated and grumped at him must also have something, as yet undiagnosed, else...  

In the meantime, it was CPTSD, which does resonate with my responses to life situations. I have only known about the CPTSD which a health care professional finally recognized in me as he had a background in working with people who had experienced very severe childhood traumas.

All of that said, I think that the people who make-up the DSM (and likely those who make-up the curricula for psychology degrees) have done a disservice to all of us, both clients and those who are working to help us in our recovery processes. That they fail to recognized CPTSD means that it is difficult for us to get a proper diagnosis and therefore to get proper treatments. I read Dr. Bessel van der Kolk's book, 'The Body Keeps the Score' and later watched him speak on a Youtube video that Kizzie posted on a different topic. In both he expresses frustration that despite multiple studies, huge amounts of evidence, letters of support from those working with people suffering from psychological injuries due to trauma (like those of us with CPTSD), there seems to be an almost willful unwillingness to recognize CPTSD as a legitimate diagnosis, and to fund research on treatments that can help us to get better. It's very discouraging but also a light in the dark that people like van der Kolk continue there work to have us recognized and to do research on how to help.

I agree with DU. Developing good boundaries is a wonderful strategy to help with this challenge.

I too have been stuck in the 'if everything is subjective then how do we know?' dilemma. As I learn to have boundaries; to know what is 'my stuff' and what is 'their stuff' and also to know what is acceptable behaviour to me and what I will not tolerate, it has been been easier (though, for me, still not 'easy') to be able to more clearly see how I would like to respond to, or even walk away from, a person or situation.

For me, it has also helped to work on my co-dependency issues. I am finding that because I was raised to anticipate and meet all of my NM's (and later other abuse persons') needs and wants to the exclusion of my own, in any situation I worried more about how the other person was feeling and what they were wanting and needing without adequately considering my side of the equation and then everything seemed 'too subjective'. However, I have been learning that my own needs and wants have value AND that other people are responsible for their needs and wants. Yes, it is appropriate to consider how my actions might affect others but NOT to the expense of having my own needs and wants considered in the discussions.

For me, that has been a difficult process as I had been taught to feel 'selfish' and 'inconsiderate' for even having needs and wants (never mind asking for them to be met). It has also been difficult because when I started making boundaries and standing up for my Self I got a lot of pushback from people in my life who were used to the 'take advantage of Vanilla' patterns. I will admit, while I have been able to redefine relationships with some of these people, I have also been forced to let go of my relationships with others (including my abusive parents). The difference has depended on whether or not the other person was willing to engage in the redefining process or not.

The upside is that by developing better boundaries and a better sense of Self, I have not just left behind harmful people (and it was painful to do even though they are harmful), I have made room in my life for healthy/healthy enough people. Now, I have supportive relationships with people who are genuine friends and caring others.

In these new relationships everyone is allowed to have needs and wants and to express their concerns, issues, etc. Sometimes someone raises a concern and agreements are readily achieved. Sometimes, the issue needs more discussions and compromises are made. In a few instances we disagree with no resolution but because we express our concerns fairly (another good tool is the 'I feel' statements) we are able to move on and remain friends even if we fail to agree on a particular issue. It is complicated and we all make mistakes in the process but we are all also learning together and trusting each other to participate in the process (e.g. attending to their own needs and wants while having consideration - but NOT responsibility for - others' needs and wants, etc.).

I hope some of that is helpful...

I recently came across the idea of a 'trophy child' in narcissistic families. For me it was like a light bulb went off as the concept totally resonated with me.

Before, I had only seen discussions of 'golden children' and 'scapegoat children' in narcissistic families. Although my siblings used to argue that I was a golden child (they now know better), I always felt like I was both gold and scapegoated even though everyone argued that this could not be the case; you must be one or the other (apparently). Largely, the online discussions were also led by scapegoated children denigrating the golden children so I also never felt comfortable suggesting that I might have grown-up in a somewhere-in-between position (anyone on those forums - which I no longer visit - who suggested they might be a golden child got block capital letter responses about how they had not right to express the hardships they too faced in their families  ).

Now, I am realizing that I was almost certainly the 'trophy child'. I was valued, solely and only, for my accomplishments. So long as I was at the top of my class, so long as I got the solos in band, so long as I was on and won at all of the academic teams (I am terrible at sports), so long as I excelled at everything I did, and so long as I anticipated and met all of my NM's needs and wants (to the exclusion of having any of my own) I was 'valued' and given the illusion of love.

To my siblings, yes, it might have looked as if I were the golden child; they often heard 'why can't you be more like Vanilla?'. However, unlike the true golden child who can 'do no wrong' (in this case my brother who got excuses from our NM for every transgression including some minor crimes - he did not have courage for major ones), I generally could 'do no right'. Similar to the scapegoat, I faced constant criticism, though unlike the true scapegoat (in this case one of my sisters) the criticism and emotional manipulation were covert and subtle; a withholding of - ahem - "love" and approval, a 'are you really wearing that?' type of questioning rather than an outright 'you would choose something that ugly' feedback, but still an eternal 'you are and never will be good enough but you are expected to keep trying'. And try I did, much to my detriment...

Unlike the golden child who was secure in the knowledge that he was 'the best' (though I would argue while he could not, and cannot, see it that position also led emotional problems for him), and unlike the scapegoat child who always knew she was 'the worst' (which of course we recognize as being to her detriment), I lived in a constantly shifting sand of always trying to 'get it right' but never being able to quite do it. My NM made sure to change the criteria of 'did well' so that I could never quite reach the goal. I was going to say it literally drove me crazy, but it did not quite do so. The double bind, however, did contribute to my getting CPTSD.

Has anyone else come across this concept, the 'trophy child'? Does it resonate with anyone else? Why do we not see discussions of it in the 'golden child' vs. 'scapegoat child' articles and forums? I think it really would have helped me to know about this family 'role' before now. I think it will help a lot as I am working through a bit of snag that I am in now in therapy.