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So, I've only started looking at this, but I feel feel like my "beliefs' about the person I was romantically interested in may have just set myself up to reaffirm my isolation. I went into the situation thinking, or projecting, that this person isn't a relationship person and they like gym bunnies. Basically, being defensive from the get go. The interactions I had with that person then became about trying to prove, if only to myself, if that was/wasn't true. In my head, I think I was shut down to connection because of the fear of this being true. Then there was a need to push things, or have things happen in a certain way (ie roll over and show their belly I guess that there was no danger), but that's not what relationships, or connection is built on. Someone can't be like that all the time, bending to my "will." I think that would make me just like my m/gm. Connection is about being open and letting people "see" you, which is a very layered (and dangerous feeling) thing for me I think.

I also feel, and am beginning to realize that this kind of "idea," or feeling about someone and what I hope to happen, is maybe a facet of limerance, or a fantasy bond where I am hoping x person will love me and see me in the way that my family didn't. I think fantasy, or imagining this kind of ideal acceptance, is/was a way of dealing with the pain that happened/was going on --the treatment that I blocked out, and just sort of hoped that someone would see the "good" in me, and what kind of a person I was.

I don't think that's especially romantic, or relationship evoking on one hand, and is just a way of continuing to bury the shame and pain because how do you begin to say, even to yourself, that I wasn't loved as child? I don't know if it's, "if I show up as myself then maybe this person will then see that I'm not worthy of love like my m did" because let's face it, that's what her actions said (and as a side note, is probably why I get so triggered if a romantic interests words and actions don't line up, which then makes me look needy/crazy wanting to have directness, but again, I don't think this is especially true for how dating works or things start out. I just had a childhood where people told you they loved you and their actions did something else). But in order for someone to actually start liking you, I guess they need to see "you," which is the good you and the you that has all this pain. Or maybe not? I feel like the pain is maybe quite close to the surface and always feels like something I'm trying to hide, or keep at a distance from people, which I guess makes me seem inauthentic? And thinking about it, I guess makes me emotionally unavailable. Hmmmm.

I guess the problem is when I start to open up those feelings where I feel like the unloved kid, or the way my m treated me, it makes me want to isolate and not be around people because it's such a deep feeling of shame? not fitting? feeling awful? How do I begin to integrate that? I guess it also doesn't feel safe and I want someone to make it ok, but I guess I'm the adult that's going to make it ok. I think there's still a big feeling of "not wanting anyone to know" operating. I guess maybe because I think it was me/my fault? But rather I guess that it wasn't me and I was conditioned to think like that. (Up pops a feeling of sympathy for the family and their life circumstances, where I guess I'm taking responsibility , or just taking things on as usual, and I have to think that if I have a choice to be different, so did they. Maybe something to unpack/remember here).

There was another article by Firestone's wife unfortunately (I'd really like more information on limerance and fantasy bonds where it isn't by a manipulative narcissist or his wife) where she talks about the fantasy bond between mother and daughter, and how the daughter (and I'm sure granddaughter) will sacrifice their relationships etc to keep the bond between them, or to help the "sick mother" essentially. She quotes a German psychiatrist from the 60's named Joeseph W. Rhinegold and his book, The Fear of Being a Woman who, like Firestone, is not well written about though does draw from a lot of research. I really wish there was something more contemporary and not coming from obscure sources because I do wonder if this is something I'm doing subconsciously. A relationship could cause tension in the family because on some level they (gm and gf?) wanted me to remain a child forever, and I wanted to be loyal, and/or not do anything to rupture the safety of that relationship.

Looking at some limerance topics on reddit, it's interesting to see that is was used by people who were emotionally neglected in childhood and I guess is an active defense to help process that pain, and to survive. I don't think I'm obsessive, but do think these ideas about people mask the pain in a way underneath.

Hey Slashy,

I feel like I went through a similar discussion when my t queried my drinking a couple glasses of wine in the evening to unwind. No, I can quit at anytime etc and I did over the past two years where I've been treating mycotoxins which adversely affect the liver. So, not wanting to mix the two, I went cold turkey. This past xmas I bought a bottle of wine because xmas. What I noticed this time that I hadn't picked up on was it was like my body was addicted to it and before I knew it, I had half a bottle pretty quickly. I did buy another, and another after that I think, but then stopped. Mentally, I could stop and everything is fine, but I guess it was hard to stop while it was going on. I mean why not have another glass? It's only two. I can understand how these things get out of hand pretty quickly and how maybe they're used to cover up things that we aren't even aware are there. I also know that I have the addiction gene and there is alcoholism in my family.

That being said, I wonder if opening up in therapy and starting to deal with feelings/events etc will help your sleep in a more natural way? I'm also a big proponent of health issues getting in the way of sleep as well. So, it could be something physically that's impacting your cortisol etc.

Sending you support,
dolly

hmmmm that's disappointing

https://www.thebobcult.com/?m=1

edit: was trying to do some digging and find a critque of The Fantasy Bond and came across a post that called Robert Firestone out as a manipulative narcissist. It's hard to take the theory of the book on knowing that even though there are a lot of things that really resonate. I guess I can take what fits. His description of parenting is scathing, but also pretty close I feel to what I experienced. He says:

"An honest, unloving father or mother will do far less damage to his or her child than a role-playing, "loving" parent. A rejecting and unloving parent will cause a child pain, but a dishonestly rejecting parent causes the child pain and makes him or her feel "crazy." This type of parent causes the child to become unsure of the ability to think and perceive correctly and ultimately causes the son or daughter to develop symptoms of psychological illness. When parents cannot bear to know that they are rejecting their children, they systematically cut off the children's opportunity to express themselves."

I feel this is exactly what happened growing up, especially with my gm.

"Many people spend their entire lives in a futile pursuit of the love  that never existed or that was withheld from them by their parents. They have internalized a strong negative image of themselves that they stubbornly refuse to change because the whole myth would crumble if they were to receive and accept positive responses or genuine recognition from another."

I feel like that last statement is true and perhaps is the reason behind why I isolate. I am looking for someone to "see" me as they didn't, which I feel gives me the "right to exist," and then everything will be ok. Meaning, the self-hatred he describes would go away. However, I also feel like I reject that closeness, because it's not coming from a "specific place/person" ie my family. I guess on some level that is the only opinion that matters. (It's interesting in context of the "see through door dream, where maybe I was scared about people "seeing me.") Though, again, I think it comes from such a young place that I don't even realize that that's what I'm doing. Looking at narc relationships, you are in a fantasy bond with them. They tell you things that you want to hear in order to manipulate, and have the things (feeling good etc) that they want. It makes sense that I have been in a fantasy bond with my family since I was born, and I guess on some level I am trying to replicate that. That's what I was born/conditioned to do.

I know I have spent a lot of time vehemently protecting my "world" and keeping people out. I think mentally, I was following the family line of you can't trust people and no one is really going to be there for you except family. It's so difficult because I feel like a lot of my adult experiences have confirmed that. Though admittedly, I also haven't been the most open person and on the cycle goes. I will try and work on the part that wants to change with NARM t. However, Firestone's description of manipulative parenting also cements my fears (?) in a way, that no one is really genuine, or most. There's always something behind it. And here's the part where do I want to listen to another manipulative narcissist and their worldview haha. I guess it's just so familiar. Maybe my brain is just finding that one piece of information that validates what it believes. Anyways, something to chew on. I guess the one true thing is that I was in a fantasy bond from birth.

Thanks Chart - it is so deep and ongoing, but we are rewarded with getting to be our authentic selves at the end of it. Not to deter you, but I was thinking in relation to what I was writing yesterday and how my second t asked me nearly 20 years ago, how does it feel that no one ever really loved you growing up? Yesterday was the first time I "got" it. It's taken me 20 years to comprehend and begin to integrate what he was talking about. I did better with the fact that my mother was a narcissist and that took me 12 years or so to begin to look at that one haha. I also wasn't able to understand/comprehend a lot of the Pete Walker book the first time I read it, or it took me 7/8 years to come back to Healing Developmental Trauma and beging to understand it's significance. These fantasy bonds that shape our reality and the idea of who we are are strong, strong stuff. We needed these things as kids and babies to survive, and they are very important on some level.

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So, in simple, logical terms I feel like in my head I think if this person would love me, then I wouldn't be unlovable and have to deal with all this pain, and face the reality (of my family and what it was like); it's like I keep wanting someone to love me in this way so I wouldn't be unlovable. I'm not wholly sure what in this way is tbh. I have a feeling it's this amorphous thing that no one is ever going to be able to solve, and I just keep getting the result where I keep feeling unlovable. I don't think this is as t said that I keep picking people who can't love me etc because I feel like even if they did, I wouldn't accept it. And on it goes - I can't accept it, and I am left feeling unlovable.

The author talks about a client who would cry when the villan was humanized in movies, or shown to have redeemable qualities and said, "Mike firmly believed that he wanted positive recognition and good treatment from these people, when in fact he wanted it only in fantasy and could only tolerate it vicariously in books, plays or movies."

"Most people are afraid of leading separate, independent lives and therefore cling to family ties and fantasies of love, which offer the illusion and false promise of connection. People prefer the imagined security of religion and immortality and choose destructive bonds which deny their aloneness. They give up a free existence and the intimacy and closeness that is part of a genuinely loving relationship in a desperate attempt to find fusion with another person."

What's interesting, or difficult, is that I don't think this is especially conscious, and is hard to pin down because it happened so early, and am unaware of how much that need for "safety" impacts my life. I think this is where the NARM and connection survival strategy come in. Safety, on one hand, also makes sense. It's something you want to a certain degree especially if you've had a chaotic upbringing. So, while I feel like an adult part of me understands the ups and downs of dating and relationships, that I have to be ok etc, there's also another part I think that very much wants this fantasy bond where everything is ok (and safe). When that mask/reality slips a little, all the feelings of being unlovable come up.

[Later, the child appears to avoid love and affection and may have a tendency toward behavior that provokes anger or hostility in others. Sensitive adults may even sense within themselves hostility and feelings of loathing toward an unloved child.]

Thank you Chart - I'm glad to hear you could relate to some of the things I wrote. I always learn a lot from her videos. This is the one I was watching yesterday. The videos on toxic shame and fearful avoidant attachment are also interesting to me.

Why Limerence Can Be Harder To Get Over Than A "Real" Relationship (And How To Do It)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWvSsp1zkfg

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I read somethhing in thhis book that is kind of blowing my mind tonight.

"In observing rejected infants, the author has noted an important characteristic in their mothers that appeared to damage them. This was the mother's (unconscious) refusal to let herself be affected or moved by the emotional experience of feeding or caring for the child. Other observers have noted that this type of mother seems to avoid her baby's loving looks at the point when the baby first begins to recognize her. This avoidance is usually detrimental to the baby's subsequent emotional development." I feel like this is/was my mom's behaviour in later years. I'm sure it wasn't different when I was an infant, only perhaps being "loved" when I did things she liked

The symptoms in such an infant are a general dissatisfaction, often consisting of whining, an inability to relax against the mother's body (or, on the other hand, a desperate clinging to the mother), excessive crying, and a "spaced-out" or pitiful, pinched look on the face. Later, the child appears to avoid love and affection and may have a tendency toward behavior that provokes anger or hostility in others. Sensitive adults may even sense within themselves hostility and feelings of loathing toward an unloved child.

"feelings of loathing toward an unloved child" I guess it's the recognition that I was an unloved child and that it was a fantasy bond in the family trying to hide that that was the case (and from myy gm to try to make up for it in a way, probably having to do with her own feelings of guilt as a parent). I guess it's just connecting the dots. If I had to put my finger on it, I would probably say that there was a lot of that feeling unloved under the surface as a teenager/young adult. That's the thing you don;t want to talk about or feel and people are pretending isn't going on. I think in naming it, there's also a feeling of wait a minute, I can love myself. But it's that initial wake up of, I was an unloved child. Thank god I had my dad or I don't know if I would be the person I am today.

No wonder I go into these romantic situations too, and feel that it's devastating when something happens, it ends, or whatever. I'm left with the feeling of being unloved/that no one is going to love me, which I guess is related to feeling I have the right to exist if they care about me. But I understand too, on some level, that I will be ok and survive without them. There's just this pull of old feelings and I think this is what it is - that I am unloved and it brings up all of that old stuff that I didn't have a name for, was told didn't exist.

It's kind of crazy because I remember my m saying to me, you do know I love you right, and this is the same woman that I threated to call the cops on the last christmas we spent together if she touched/hit me, which doesn't feel like my life but it is.

I can't believe I haven't come across this book before, The Fantasy Bond by Robert Firestone. Thanks Heidi Priebe.

"People cannot deaden themselves emotionally and become defensive without affecting the people closest to them. Therefore, parents who wall themselves off against feeling must inevitably suppress feeling in their young in those areas where they, the parents, feel the most threatened."

I don't even feel/know if I can comprehend where this might be when I think about my relationship with my family. Part of me just feels "everything/all over," but I think also probably sexuality and independence. I don't know if there's an area that didn't feel repressed growing up? That all feelings were repressed and made into something else, which is maybe why I have such difficulty trusting any internal feelings that do come up? I find the above quote disorganizing and pertinent at the same time.

"The therapeutic value of friendship must be emphasized, for it is virtually a necessity to share one's struggle with others who support one's individuality and personal freedom. Intimacy without bondage, and closeness without illusions of security enable a person to feel the truth of his or her separateness in a way not possible in a more conventional relationship."

I definitely have some things to say about this in fact is probably what I have been looking for, but feel the need for security (from those very young, infant parts) often get in the way, subconsciously or consciously as projections of safety, and seeing someone as a safe/unsafe person (fearful avoidance).

Thank you Hope - I do feel it's quite big too. The feeling that other people didn't have, or don't have to put up with "bad" treatment from others, but somehow I do? That it's something in me, that I'm doing, where I'm not perfect or x enough, so it's somehow justified I think. For example, I'm the kind of woman who says things, so it's maybe to be expected that some men would "go after" me. Like I had it coming. I seem to have to fight a lot of this, but it's also coming from when I was a child where none of it should have been allowed. 

I'm realizing this morning that I've been in a state of disconnection, though I don't think I've ever recognized that that's what it is? It's like my cognitive self isn't online, and "heart" connections, or feeling is offline as well? I'm wondering if this is a very young part. I feel like before I would have had an excuse, or reason for the disconnection. The person behaved like x, so there was a need to cut and run to something else etc. However, I feel like my actions have been pretty centered, and everything that I feel I have to take responsibility for, I have. That being said, I have also been feeling like I need to hide myself from others at work to a degree, or that work connections have been difficult and I've wanted to "hide" myself from everyone, and/or feel like things aren't going to work out on some level. I'm wondering if this is something that was discussed in the HFDT book where something happens and your body just loses the connection and doesn't feel safe to reestablish it.

Speaking of reoccurring dreams, which came up in Hope's journal,  I had one last night that hasn't really registered as a reoccurring dream. I was back at my gf's house and it's come up over the past several years I think. This is the house my m grew up in and I lived in for a time with my m until I was around 5 or so? We all lived there together, and when my m and I did move out, we moved a street away, and my sf lived across the street. So when my m and I moved in with him, I was always at my gf's house. Small world. So, I guess the neighbourhood was a big part of my early life. I guess it felt like a safe place, but I think there's also a lot that I haven't unpacked, which is why maybe I keep going back. Last night I was concerned that they (my gm) had installed a door with a see through glass window, and I didn't think it was safe. (This is/was actually pretty close to the door that was there which was see through glass). I was also concerned/wondering about all the neighbour's houses that had dark windows. I don't know if I was concerned that they would see in (see me?)? Maybe I am still carrying shame from that time, and want to hide myself, that it doesn't feel safe to show myself, which makes me feel quite sad really.

edit: I was just making some coffee and thought about reaching out to someone and sending them a link to a book on a topic we had been discussing. Then I thought about reaching out to another person that I shared the same book with to see how they were doing. It sort of made me realize that there are quite a few people I could connect with, which sort of brought me out of the "mood" that I was in.

 

Hi SH,

I'm sorry your adoptive family is like that, and to me, it's not a small drive by, but a pretty big thing where they are not acknowledging your need to feel you belong after you were adopted. Or to even make you feel like you belong. I just wanted to say I hear you and offer a hug if that's ok 

Sending you support,
dolly

 

Tomorrow I'm going to meet a new therapist who was recommended to me by my current therapist, as someone who can do VERY intense IFS work. She has studied with Robert Falconer, who wrote The Others Within Us and she told me on the phone that our first session(s) will be to work with the part in me who is, what I call, my inner bouncer. I have an inner bouncer who, for my entire life, has tried to keep other people out of my head. Anytime I've ever tried to meditate or be hypnotized, this part pops up and distracts me. He sends me messages like, "This is stupid. Don't fall for it."  Meanwhile, I PAID a hypnotherapist to help me quit smoking or quit eating too much or to help me find my inner peace, and this bouncer keeps throwing them out of my head. I'm intrigued. I'm so glad she said that was where we'll start, so that as we work in later sessions to find more parts, he won't throw her out of my head.

Hi PC,

I'm glad you've found some energy and happiness. The time with your family sounds wonderful. As others have mentioned, having a family like that is a testament to what a great job you did.

FWIW I think energy work has a place and has helped me in the past. It didn't solve all my problems, but probably helped me along my way to doing those things. FWIW too, I'm interested to hear about your inner bouncer. I do believe in perpetrator introjects (energetically and psychologically). I'm also beginning to understand how important it is for a part of me to protect my inner world, and how connection can throw that in disarray. Probably because I had to start learning how to do it at such a young age where any and everything is big, overpowering and doesn't make sense. So, no matter how well meaning someone can be, I think they might want to "throw them out" as well because it's hard to understand that I don't have to protect myself in that way all the time etc.

Sending you support,
dolly

dollyvee - I would normally agree with you. The signs of infection were showing before starting the drugs, though. And I have combed the internet for side effects of these drugs. Fever, coughing and racing heart simply do not feature anywhere. Anyway, whatever happens I keep taking the Hep C drugs. I absolutely refuse to end up with drug-resistant hepatitis at the end of it.

HI NK,

I'm sorry too that you might not go on your cruise and get to do something you were looking forward to.

With the HCV stuff, my initial thought was that the drugs were bringing up something maybe previously undetected in the body, and not a specific reaction to the medication. Sometimes there's a herx reaction where things get worse before they get better etc, but also that maybe the HCV is affecting more than just the liver, which perhaps the doctors might have missed. Viruses are funny things. I feel like I'm overstepping here, but I did a quick search and there are pulmonary reactions to HCV. Years of growing up with people that were ill around you and trying to solve their problems is a hard thing to shake. As well as being overlooked by doctors for my own health problems. I do hope you start to feel better though and find some space for rest.

"Chronic HCV infection is, however, associated with multiple extrahepatic manifestations as well, including recently recognized effects on the lung. These include primary effects on lung function, as well as secondary effects in the settings of progressive liver disease and drug treatment for HCV."

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0012369215527141

This is an old study and perhaps things might have changed, but might be worth looking into a bit more.

Sending you support,
dolly

Thank you Hope - I think it's somethingI do to try suppress what's happened really. I guess that's how I dealt with it because I didn't have anything else. Boundaries? Not allowed. Standing up for myself? Punished and gaslit into thinking it was me. So, the only thing that worked/was allowed was to block it out, or it just doesn't exist.

I think there's a lot of stuff coming up now and this morning I could write about a few different things, but not really sure about the direction. I think that's also familiar. I guess it's just emotion? Though don;t think I could nail down a specific one. Impending Doom brought to the surface? Perhaps as I've been feeling like I've spent a lot of the past week very hypervigilant around people, but also with a sort of clarity?

I spoke with t about feeling defensive about my inner world and I was much more emotional talking about that than I expected to be. I feel/ suspect this is at the heart of a lot of things/connection stuff. The conflict between needing to protect/keep my own inner world safe vs engaging and taking what others say on board. I think it's just the immediate feeling or readiness to take on something if there is an issue, and then, I am "bad." It's such an automatic process.

I watched Heidi Priebe's video on needs and relationships, which was pretty eye opening. I've often felt like I wasn't allowed to have needs, or that in a relationship, my needs are somehow disassociated from me. I very much identified with feeling like yoou have to meet all your needs in a relationship. It feels so foreign that someone else would meet my needs, or some of them, and not expect something from me. (I checked out for a bit after I wrote that last bit, so I guess there's something in there). This is also not "special," or only for certain (ie good) people, but is how relationships work for most people (apparently?). I guess it just feels safer for me to do things myself.

I'm also revisiting an experience with my gym friend where I was joking about doing an exercise badly because I was tired from working so much the past bit. She said, but why not do them this way - which was sort of it's fine what you're doing.  Of course me being me, I want to challenge and push myself. I sort of deflected and made it into a joke about already having a therapist (which sounds pretty harsh when I write it out here, but don't think it came across like that). So, we sort of talked (trauma bonded?) and turns out that she also has a similar family of the why didn't you get all A's variety, and she was speaking I guess as someone who she would have spoken to her like that. I didn't really take on board though what she was saying until later, or have it fully sink in. I didn't push myself to maximum, but backed off. However, that feeling of I should have done better was still there. Or maybe not should have done better, but disappointment in not doing so on some level.

I'm also pretty sure I saw a paedophile in the the grocery store yesterday, watching this mother and child probably pretty innocuously to everyone else, but I did not like the feeling. I don't know how to describe it, the mom was loving but busy and stressed, only half paying attention to the little girl, and it felt like he was taking all of this in and looking at the girl. I stared at him and he didn't care. The feeling was so odd. It was like he knew he wasn't going to get caught. And I felt like there is nothing really that I can do, but stare at him and show him I know what you are. This is the first time I've understood the term predator. That's exactly the feeling I got. I thought about going to the police, but what  can I say? I don't think this man should be around children. Or telling the mom to watch her child more closely? I wish I would have went after the mom, but I didn't want to cause her alarm? I guess it's bringing up some of my own feelings around powerlessness.

Hi Woodsgnome,

I'm sorry that things are so challenging right now for you. I read what you wrote recently in the infancy and trauma thread a while ago and I'm sorry too about some of your experiences. I can't imagine how difficult it is for you at times. I also want to say that I had an energy healing experience a soul retrieval though, and while I am skeptical, I also believe like you say in a person's ability to do those things and bring back the details you mentioned.

I tend to isolate myself and think that it is very much a trauma reaction to help us keep reliving that sense of impending doom, so that we feel like we can protect ourselves from something we once couldn't. I'm coming to grips with states of connection and disconnection and the parts that don't feel connection is safe. I feel like I've seen a lot in people that confirms my thinking that it's not safe. I'm also open to the idea that perhaps I've been closed to the people who are "safe" because I feel like I need to protect myself from the "impending doom." I hope you're able to have some space from states of disconnection and connection in a way that feels safe for you.

Sending you support,
dolly

Hi NK,

I find people like that very stressful, who try to blag their way through things and people who want to throw me a bunch of bs are triggering I would say. As an adult though, you've done a great job of getting second opinions and being able to deal with the problem when you're feeling down. I don't think you're feeling sorry for yourself. It sounds like a lot going on.

Not a doctor here, but it seems too coincidental that you've now developed a chest infection once the medication has been started. Perhaps the two are related, and apologies if you've already looked into this with your doctor. Probablyy just my own medical issues and oversights by doctors coming into play.

I do hope your cruise goes well though. I'm sure you'll have a great time, and whatever you didn't pack you might be able to buy along the way.

dolly