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Hi Woodsgnome,

I'm sorry that things are so challenging right now for you. I read what you wrote recently in the infancy and trauma thread a while ago and I'm sorry too about some of your experiences. I can't imagine how difficult it is for you at times. I also want to say that I had an energy healing experience a soul retrieval though, and while I am skeptical, I also believe like you say in a person's ability to do those things and bring back the details you mentioned.

I tend to isolate myself and think that it is very much a trauma reaction to help us keep reliving that sense of impending doom, so that we feel like we can protect ourselves from something we once couldn't. I'm coming to grips with states of connection and disconnection and the parts that don't feel connection is safe. I feel like I've seen a lot in people that confirms my thinking that it's not safe. I'm also open to the idea that perhaps I've been closed to the people who are "safe" because I feel like I need to protect myself from the "impending doom." I hope you're able to have some space from states of disconnection and connection in a way that feels safe for you.

Sending you support,
dolly

Hi NK,

I find people like that very stressful, who try to blag their way through things and people who want to throw me a bunch of bs are triggering I would say. As an adult though, you've done a great job of getting second opinions and being able to deal with the problem when you're feeling down. I don't think you're feeling sorry for yourself. It sounds like a lot going on.

Not a doctor here, but it seems too coincidental that you've now developed a chest infection once the medication has been started. Perhaps the two are related, and apologies if you've already looked into this with your doctor. Probablyy just my own medical issues and oversights by doctors coming into play.

I do hope your cruise goes well though. I'm sure you'll have a great time, and whatever you didn't pack you might be able to buy along the way.

dolly 

Truth is, my 'caring, nurturing' tendencies come from a dark place. It's not just that I wanted others to do better. Nothing that neat or altruistic. 
 
Finally, my tendency to be nice (and avoidance of those who are not) is borne out of a subconscious need to avoid or defuse conflict.

 I suspect these darker motives are what drive most of us to become this way.
 

Hi Slashy,

Hmm I'm not so sure about the "darker" aspects of where these things come from. It's hard to blame a child who learned how to do these things to survive an unsafe environment as dark, and intentionally doing coming from a "selfish" place, but I do see where you're coming from. Perhaps it's our shadow selves that we don't want to look at. Or rather, are so contained in shame, so we don't look at them.

About 8 (?) years ago, I slowly started to realize that I was having "reactions" when I would do something for someone and it wouldn't be reciprocated, or I felt kind of taken advantage of (because something wasn't reciproacated etc etc). This is around the time that I started therapy again. I realized that the person I thought I was -giving, loving, whatever - might not be all of those things the way I imagined it in my mind (and this is the important part), and I guess have a "darker" side. I think it's important because as a child we have this idea of who we have to be in order to survive, and when we step outside that, we see ourselves as bad. I think I would file it under child consciousness as Heller descibes it. It doesn't make you a bad person to not be those things all the time, that's just what you had to do to survive. I would guess that shame construes those things in our mind as bad because I believe that I do want good things for people, and to help make their lives easier etc. I guess I am now learning that I don't want to do it at the expense of myself any more, which makes me feel "selfish" at times.

Sending you support,
dolly

Hi Hope,

Moths are interesting to me. I remember reading about them years ago in the book that's mentioned here in this link. You can take it with a grain of salt, but I do believe this man had an experience that was quite like any other and made a website to find other people because it was so outside of his experience. Maybe it's another aspect (spiritual) to your night terrors, which to me, can also be quite scary in itself to consider these things.

https://cosmicmoth.com/

After my dad died, I would frequently go back to our house in dreams. However, over the years the house would change and eventually, I stopped going. I do think we try to make sense of things, all that subconscious stuff, in our dreams, and once we "get it," we move on or it changes.

Sending you support,
dolly

Hi Chart,

I've come to understand a bit more how this stuff shows up in me a bit more over the past few years. A recent revelation has been Healing From Developmental Trauma both the first book and the Practical guide. It deals with the connection survival type which very much relates to infancy trauma. Perhaps it might help in understanding the foundations of what you're experiencing a bit more. He has a very good explanation of "impending doom" and where that comes from when you tried to resolve things as an infant with no resources.

I've also recently started seeing a NARM therapist, which sort of hits straight to the core of issues, but can also just leave one feeling a bit sark and heavy. It's only been a month, so waiting to see how it goes.Most of the infancy stuff is also preverbal, so emotions etc coming up for me often don't have a logical/thinking component which I rely on, so I think I sort of spin out with stuff like that.

I'm sorry you're going through so much at the moment and hope you can find some space with that.

Sending you support,
dolly

Hi Jim,

I'm glad you were able to talk things out a bit and feel better about the situation. I'm glad you've found a sense of direction.

Thank you for your kindness and sending some back,
dolly

Reflecting on my session with t and I think I see some dynamics happening, which have come up before, but didn't realize/understand how important, or rooted (if that's the right word) they are?

T was explaining where she thought my issues with relationships stem, or why maybe I keep choosing a certain type of person (her words). She's used a traffic light analogy to explain interpreting someone's actions before because I think I can "see what I want to see" at times. (I think this is not understanding what's going on internally perhaps, and wanting to connect in a way that I didn't have growing up, which I guess is me at times, thinking I'm broken). I've sort of come to realize in my last interaction with someone, is that the traffic light is way too far down the process, and it's my interpretation of things before it even gets to that point where I feel like things take a detour (keeping with the traffic metaphor). I've realized that the "chase," or even that initial moment of spark, connection, and potentiality make me shut down, and is where I start interpreting things as dangerous, or trying to read into someone's actions. So, it all progresses into this "game" of are they going to be this person (hurtful etc), and me trying to find evidence of that. Not particularly healthy and not really something I want to do.

But what I noticed in discussing this with t, and what I said to her, was that I don't feel like there's a lot of agency in these "interpretations," and I think it makes me very defensive. What I noticed this morning is that I think it's a familiar pattern of maybe disconnection? I didn't have/wasn't allowed to have an internal world I think growing up, and I'm very protective of mine now, and feel like on some level I will choose that over connection because it's survival. Not listening was said a lot to me growing up, and now, I think it's probably similar at times. If I don't feel like my internal world is respected (thoughts/contributions etc), I think I just tune out. I think this is also probably true for relationships, that I would rather protect my inner world (and freedom) than connect. I find people want to tell me a lot about the things I'm doing in my life and how they're wrong (sounds like my gf), or maybe this is what I stick on, and not the people who don't because then it brings up the feelings around connection?

I will bring this up with t and see what happens. I know in the past I've said that the dynaminc feels like my gm at times where I'd say something and I get defensive because I don't feel like it's heard.
_____________________________

I also watched Baby Reindeer and wow did that stick with my. I think it shows the process of self-hatred that so many people go through, and maybe how and why we do get stuck in these patterns. 

_____________________________

It's also interesting some of the things that have been coming up, and the feelings around relationships which are thinking about all the times I've been treated badly, and how I think I want to suppress that, or maybe how I don't actually feel and recognize that as something that happened growing up. The other was that I feel like I'm just trying to be a nice person and it's never recognized, or what people want. GoSlash's comment was interesting that we try to be the things we didn't have growing up. So, maybe I'm trying to be nice because that's what I didn't have, wanting someone to recognize that, but it's just my own unhealed stuff and not an authentic connection? Or I keep thinking that I'm not a nice person because I'm taking on my family's stuff, or that if I don't try and  save everyone, I'm not nice?

Hi Slash,

I'm glad you found the toy from your time with your foster family and it's helped you connect to a part of you. It sounds like there was probably a lot of difficult things for a three year old to process at the time and it's good to have something calming.

Thank you for what you wrote about becoming the person as an adult you wish you had around as a child. It's given me some food for thought and perhaps an insight as to why/where some of my rigidity about being "nice" comes from.

Sending you support,
dolly

Hi Slashy,

I feel you. I think it's perhaps both a feature and a bug for me, and have been exploring connection with a NARM therapist.

I think the bug part for me is when my old beliefs that kept me safe (ie being mistrustful, closed etc) actually pop up unknown and sabtotage relationships and connection. I guess it becomes a matter of perspective. We can feel very happy in our isolated worlds, but maybe there's also the inkling that something else is out there. For me, it pops up when I'm trying to make new friends. I rarely approach people (though that's not true as I'm pretty "chatty"), but I guess when I want to trust someone as a friend, and feel like maybe they'll be there for me, this stuff comes up. Superficial relationships where you want to feel like you don't require anything from anyone, only go so far. Or so I'm told. I have a difficult time believing that people don't want something from me on some level, and to me, that feels like betrayal (?) though I don't know the right word for it. However, it's very good at keeping all the feelings I want to keep hidden, hidden. I guess it just feels "safer" to do things like that, and it's whether or not that "safety" is actually warrented or not as an adult. Perhaps it's just learning to trust myself in the instances where it is warranted and where it isn't.

Sending you support,
dolly

So, NARM session this week was...interesting. It always feels like let's dig to the core of the issue and show you your two sides if you can understand and integrate them?

Wee talked about connection and how the feeling of stepping back and not doing so much allowed me a little space. When I try to feel into that space, or think about connecting, I saw a very protective, kind part, that I guess I trust. Like they are doing the best for me. When I try to get that part to step back a bit to allow me to feel the connection, I got something very familiar, kind of a smirk that was like, "you don't know how the world works," which is something I heard a lot growing up. I'm sort of struck now how much it reminds me of the connection with my gm. Something that seems very soft and loving, but if you try to step back from that, and have some independence, you are losing protection and there is danger. At the end of the session, it made me feel very guarded, like oh let's connect and it will be a big kumbaya. I guess growing up I learned that people connect with you because they want something from you, not because of you, and that's a difficult place to be in.

I also felt a lot of emotion around how difficult it was to love my m and gm so much, and watch them destroy themselves, and feel like there was nothing you could do to help them. I don't know if this was helping them so they could finally love me back and I could be seen because otherwise I guess there's a lot of grief and sadness there that's difficult to bear as well.

I also don't really feel like it's the connection that's the problem, or wanting to connect, but perhaps the age of the part that's wanting those things, and if perhaps, they are in "adult consciousness." I also guess that there's a part that doesn't want adult consciousness because it means letting these things go, or what that young part wants/hopes for. Also difficult that I guess those things are never going to be in the world - that love and acceptance? I don't know  what /whyy exactly?

Hi Jim,

Oh boy, can I relate and I'm sorry you're going through that right now. Break ups are awful.

I was reading on another forum about dating and someone was trying to discern if they were interested because they had a good chat, but then they seemed to be avoiding eye contact. All the commentators said, move on, she's not interested. I thought, as a fearful avoidant, I recognize how difficult it is to be "pursued," and how, even if I like that person, I would probably have difficulty showing it. It just struck me how different my perspective was from everyone else's, and how lonely I guess it is to be misunderstood like that, or feel that someone isn't on your "side."

I guess a recent "victory" for me is seeing how much of what I view of someone is/was my own projection. I met someone about a year ago and came to the conclusion that this was not a "relationship guy," and I'm pretty sure (was pretty sure) he fancied a lot of young, attractive women at the gym, which of course, is not how I see myself. So, I distanced myself and then a few months ago, it seemed like he was interested, but I was battling all these projections in my mind. A big one was, I think he's attractive and great, why would a guy like that want me? Something must be off. I was really trying to work out if these things were "true" or not. It's sad because it took me a long time to work out that this is my stuff (where and why I learned it and why I'm holding onto it is another matter), but I can see that it's mine and not the "truth," or the truth where I can't trust this person because of it. Is it difficult for someone to deal with this? Probably. Did I screw it up? Also probably, but it feels different this time like I can step back and really take responsibility (?) for it without feeling the shame and self attack so much. Don't get me wrong, it really sucks, but I also don't feel I did anything "wrong" in the way my child mind is imagining. I'm an adult, I can deal with it. I'm not the dependent child that had to worry about the rejection of a caregiver for survival.

I've been reading a book called the Practical Guide to Healing Developmental Trauma and he talks about hope.

"Splitting and identifying with the "bad self" provides hope. If they can get rid of the parts that are seemingly not liked by the caregivers, then they imagine they will be loved. Or if they work really hard to be what their caregivers expect of them, then they will be loved. Internalizing the environmental failure as their failure leads to shame-based identifications that feel protective and maintain hope. It protects the attachment relationship. It preserves the possibility that there is still love in the universe. As painful as it is to feel defective, faulty, and unlovable, it gives a child hope that they maybe can fix themself, and that maybe then they will be loved."

For me, when a relationships doesn't go anywhere, or that "hope" is gone, I'm usually left with the feeling that I'm defective, or there isn't any love in the universe and that's a hard place to be in. I think I've slowly been trying to take things at my own speed, and not trying to "be" the person I feel like I have to be in order to be loved, or what I learned growing up. Did things not work out between me and him? Probably, but I feel a little bit more space for me now. I'm not out of the woods emotionally, and can see myself reacting (probably protest reactions like in the book, or shame attacks to a degree), but I'm hoping that I can recognize them for what they are and try to act accordingly. I also feel like even if I reacted and took the projection to be true, I was able to step back, recognize what I did, apologize, and not stay in a place of blame or anger. Even at myself if I might have screwed it up.

This is long and I think I'm using it to work out some of things I've been going through recently, so please take what you need, if anything, and leave the rest.

Sending you support,
dolly

Hi ScapeGoat69,

I was also a scape goat in my family and have the feeling (belief) that I will be punished for standing up for myself that I carry around my life. I hope you're able to find what you need on the forum 

dolly

Ah I think I understand a bit better now - that it wasn't a member of your FOO, but his in the gothic house. I wonder perhaps if your doing the work with your FOO might bring up issues with his FOO that he would prefer to not address, and just leave as they are? But that's my interpretation.

 Glad you have some positive feelings now

[Maybe most of the time though, it doesn't get to that point because I think I'll shut down and not trust someone, but when I do, it's opening this relationship dynamic.]

I guess I feel like it's hard to let someone in who might want to control things because I've had to do it on my own for so long, and if that person leaves, I'd be left having to survive and might not be in a position to do that. This reminds me of my gm, or perhaps a belief of hers that she had. Tho I don't know how much of it, if she was on her own after the divorce, was wanting to be taken care of and not wanting to go out and do things on her own.

In the psychologists reports, he tried to motivate her about reaching out to clients, or feeling like she could reach out to clients, doing the necessary leg work I guess. I think she kept feeling like she was lacking, or not good enough (?), and it was hard for her to do that. She didn't receive any support either I think from my gf, who could be very critical and I'm sure put what she was doing down. If it wasn't known to him, it was probably useless or stupid, or you'd be a fool to believe that. Or he wanted things in his life a certain way, and this was interfering with that. I can't remember his words exactly, but probably something along those lines. I think she preferred being in a relationship where she was taken care of, I guess that safety.

Perhaps I'm processing things and feelings empathetic here, seeing some of myself in my gm, or what I'm taking from their relationship and what my own struggles are. Then I remembered her saying (judging)  that my sgf wasn't that bright, or about what he did for work or something like that, and it cracks a bit. I think it makes me understand my own trigger point, which I've been realizing over the past few weeks, about being lied to. Like wait a minute, I've been honest and believing (with an open heart here), acting with empathy to your situation, and someone has taken advantage of that. Someone gave me the impression that they were going to nurture me (I guess by my own internal guidelines of what that looks like and not being entirely "open"), and I was empathetic towards what they said they were going through, but I don't think that was returned/shared and that equals rage. Maybe most of the time though, it doesn't get to that point because I think I'll shut down and not trust someone, but when I do, it's opening this relationship dynamic.

It's interesting because I was thinking this week that I just feel like I"m being a nice person, and trying to act with an open heart, why does this happen? Writing this out, I can see that being the nice person is what I had to do in my family (because I felt I had to take care of my gm who was going through those things with my gf? But she kept going back to him), and I kept getting lied to/mainpulated/treated like garbage and trying to work things out. I guess it's hard for me to not take that and project it onto other people that I want to care about. It's just easier not to trust them from the beginning (because I'm expected to give too much?)

I feel like I'm so close to getting something here, to making a connection (interesting word), but I can't put my finger on it. That I don't have to be a "nice" person? That the world isn't going to fall apart? That connecting to someone doesn't mean there is deception, and maybe what feels/seems like deception, or being lied to isn't really that? This "narrative' is so locked in. I can't really "feel" this though, just think it.

Looking at what I wrote about my gm above, I can also maybe see why working so hard at something is important because I don't want to end up like that, being the mercy of someone who is treating me badly. Maybe I'm still holding onto this family narrative/dynamic by feeling/thinking that as well (and still trying to save her by working so hard to be on my own? Do the things she couldn't/didn't do?)

Realizing that the statement in bold is a process of disconnection and not trusting people means that I'm disconnecting from them when it's the opposite that I want, connection (and to be understood). But I guess there's also times that disconnection is helpful when people aren't being honest, and here's the circle - when are people being honest? Maybe this is increasing my window of tolerance to give people time to show me if they're going to be trustworthy or not, and if not, it's not my fault (or I won't feel shame for trusting them?).

I'm also recognizing how much of my stuff is a projection onto someone ie that he wants a young gym bunny (gm belief that men will leave you for someone younger); that he's not a relationship guy (that men will leave you); and that I can't trust him (gm saying you can't trust men). The dream I had where she was standing in line, saying that she will buy me an apple juice and never doing that (taking my harmony, pleasure, fertility, sexual awareness etc as per the meaning of apples in the dream dictionary), sort of helps me see that I'm still carrying these beliefs for her and it's getting in the way of my harmony, pleasure etc in relationships. The other part of the dream is where she and I were out on the road, and I was worried/thinking people were not going to think I was a nice person. I see too, how I've been "groomed" from a young age to be like that - be nice and take on peoples' stuff, to not abandon her and help her through her difficulty. The difficult part is that those are nice (that word again)/aspirational things to be in life. I guess it's the feeling like if you're not those things (human basically), then you're somehow flawed. Like I don't get to make mistakes?

I think this is all a bit all over the place. I'm sort of thinking out loud here with some things that are going on. 

Hi Hope,

This is just my interpretation so please ignore if it doesn't feel right. I wonder if your husband in your dream is a kind of transferance where he is a "normal" part of your life, and is seeing the FOO for who they are. That other, "normal' people would also be traumatized by them, and it's not just "you."

I remember reading a long time ago when I was first starting to pull away from my family that other people don't like change sometimes because they like you as you are, and change can be difficult for them because it means doing their own work. I was, of course, reading this in the context of an unNPD family, but perhaps it also means that there's nothing "wrong" with you for doing what you're doing. I hope you were able to have a good Easter weekend with your husband.

Sending you support   
dolly