Neurofeedback - worth serious discussion, imo...

[voicelessagony2]

In van der Kolk's book, he describes the benefits they saw from neurofeedback, which made it sound like an amazing opportunity for recovery.

Here's an explanation (http://www.aboutneurofeedback.com/neurofeedback-info-center/faq/how-does-neurofeedback-work/) describing exactly what neurofeedback is, what the equipment looks like, and how it works. I believe this is pretty close to what was described in the book. It requires a knowledgeable therapist to structure the session and guide you through it, so you know what you are learning as you go through the exercises. It seems that you would be able to teach yourself how to manage your thoughts when you become triggered, at least that's what I concluded based on the book and the description together.

The scary thing is, I found several places online that call their services "neurofeedback" as well as "biofeedback" (some use the terms interchangeably) but they are NOT THE SAME, and they are NOT what the book and previous video describe. In fact, I am going to go out on a limb and put these quacks in the same category as psychics and palm readers. Only this is worse, because they have the audacity to call their services "science."

Here's an example: http://uniquemindcare.com/treatments/neuroscience/ - There is a lot of "information" provided, but I could not find any specific details about what they actually DO. Then I looked at the links they provided under "Our Network" - the Demartini Institute (that quack from "The Secret"), the Energy Enhancement System ("morphogenic energy fields", i.e. metaphysical nonsense) and Nexalin Technology (at least they have a device, but it looks gimmicky to me, and the only explanation of how it works is "gentle electrical current intended to stimulate structures deep within the brain" I smell BS)

So please be aware if you are interested in pursuing neurofeedback, there are vultures out there making lots of money with fake science. I haven't brought it up with my therapist yet because I didn't get to that part of the book until after our first session on Tuesday. I'm going back next Tuesday and I will ask her & report back what she says.

[Badmemories]

  Voicless,

So did You ask Your therapist about this? What did You fine out?  I am interested to know 

Keep on Keeping on!

[voicelessagony2]

I forgot to ask her.  LOL

[Laynelove]

Hi,

I know this is a really old thread but I am interested in neurofeedback and have booked an appointment. I'm a bit worried about it being a scam.

Does anyone have any information on this?

[Dutch Uncle]

I'm a bit worried about it being a scam.

I have no idea what it's all about, but I just wanted to say to you: Keep your eyes, ears and gut open if you are worried about it being a scam. One appointment won't harm, probably, and it looks like you are going there to 'check it out'. Wise move.
Don't make any follow up appointments immediately after this one. Take some quiet, private time to rehash all you've experienced there. If it is a scam, they'll probably try to press you into a commitment you don't want to make right away.

I hope you'll write about your experiences there.

Good luck and take care!

[Kizzie]

I'm joining into this thread really late too but I've just had two sessions of biofeedback with a licensed/registered psychologist now and am finding it quite helpful. It's helping me to learn to breath and relax. When I try this on my own being a perfectionist I end up worrying if I am doing things correctly, my I\Cr ends up being triggered and I end up not feeling relaxed at all.  This way I can see that I am making a pos/neg difference through breathig and consciously relaxing muscles, etc. 

In one exercise there are three coloured bars, red, blue and green and as I breath more deeply, loosen my muscles, slow down my thinking, the red bar decreases (I was at a 70/100 the first time and brough it down to 18), and the blue and green increase which apparently signals a greater state of relaxation/calm.   In another exercise, there is a grayscale picture of a garden and by breathing and relaxing you add colour to the grass, trees, water, flowers etc.  That one was harder but kind of fun. 

Next session we are going to work on some neurofeedback and do some "brain mapping" so I will be wearing that not-so-fashionable little skull cap with electrodes.  According to my T it will help pinpoint areas to work on to balance functioning of the brain, somewhat similar to EMDR I think he said. Anyway, I'll post as I go along. 

Laynelove - did you go to your appointment and if so, how did it go?

[Laynelove]

Hi,

I was taking a break from the forum but noticed a reply on this so I wanted to write back.

I didn't go to my appointment due to money issues. I plan to reschedule over the next few weeks though. The first scan is killer tho...$495 ouch! Sounds like it is going to be well worth it.

As far as me thinking it may be a scam, when I have cancelled my appointments there is no pressure. They are like 'ok no worries' so that makes me think they are not trying to sell a product as such. I was just wary because on forums half of people say it doesn't work and the other half say it's the most amazing thing ever. There's just no scientific proof yet to back either one.

Apparantly they use it all the time to treat ptsd in war veterans in the US with great success.

I would like to get the effect of anti depressant medication from the neurofeedback and then continue to use the schema therapy I'm doing for my personality issues.

I'm so glad you have noticed it's working for you kizzie! They say that the first thing you notice is that you sleep better, have you noticed that at all?

[Kizzie]

HI Laynelove - Sorry you cancelled but I can see why, that's a lot of money.  My mapping will be $195 and only because it takes two hours. A normal one hour bio-neuro session is $175 (still pretty steep imo).  Don't get me started on the issue of psychologist pricing themselves far too high for most people to afford lol, it's becoming a real issue with me. I digress. 

Is the T you're seeing a registered psychologist do you know?  That would be my minimum criteria for selecting someone who is credible.  And you can always ask what training they've had, how many patients they've worked with, to get a feel for how experienced and knowledgeable they are.  Mine is quite transparent about all of that and has done quite a bit of work with trauma so I'm comfortable.

I haven't noticed I am sleeping better yet but have only done the two sessions of biofeedback and breathing so far. What it did do was help me to see when I am breathing and relaxing in a way that reduces anxiety/stress.  I certainly will post as I go along though.  I have a brain mapping session this Thurs so will post about that too if you want to check back. 

If all does go well in the ten sessions  there are BF and NF machines on the market and  I am thinking of researching them to see how legit/useful they are and whether they're worth investing in to use at home. I can add that here too.

I hope you will post when you go Laynelove, we can compare notes 

[Deja]

Hi, my first post on this forum - actually on any forum like this.

Last year I did a 4 day training course in Neuro Feedback, (I think it was 4 days) with Melbourne based Moshe Perl and found it very illuminating. i also found it upsetting as well as it confirmed to me that various cognitive and such functions were highjacked by my overwhelm and panic. I have been putting off making an appointment with him to begin therapy with him but this thread has inspired me to try again. As a practitioner/trainer he was funny, compassionate and relational - all the things I want in a therapist. I am considering buying the software to work at home with to support my work with him.

My understanding is that Neuro Feedback is different than Biofeedback in that it about the processes to do with the brain and neurological circulation system. Bio feedback is any biological feedback system that informs and interpreted usually by a psychologist or therapist; it is often described as somatic or bodily - e.g. heart racing? is it love? is it panic?Is it a heart attack?

Slowing the breath, reducing anxiety and perfectionism and working with muscle relaxation work therapeutically for both neuro and bio feedback. Neuro feedback is also a biological system but is a distinct and specialised area.

Initially I found NF exhausting (like a lot of things are for me at the moment) but the theory makes a lot of sense to me. I know I need a therapist but am self helping by being more physical - tagging along to the gym with a more committed friend who is very keen to loose weight and doing regular yoga. I do workshops in Yoga for Trauma as well and as a yoga teacher I'd eventually like to teach.

At the moment I can't seem to organise thoughts and regulate emotions and am hoping Neuro Feedback will help with breath, emotion stabilisation and by helping me set healing structure to my days, including for sleep; these last 2 things has been ridiculously difficult for me to achieve without falling back into less than helpful habits.

Thanks for being here. someone sent me the link and I burst into tears.....

[Kizzie]

Hi, my first post on this forum - actually on any forum like this.  Thanks for being here. someone sent me the link and I burst into tears.....

I'd say you're in the right place then Deja, welcome to our little corner of the world     I'll be very interested to hear more about your NF, so far I've just tried the BF.  Makes a lot of sense to me to be able to see what I'm trying to do in terms of relaxing, breathing, etc.  I'm thinking of buying hatever is needed to work on this at home too. 

If/when you're feeling comfortable here, it would also be interesting to hear a bit about your situation, current and past.  No rush though.

[Laynelove]

Hi Kizzie,

The guy I'm seeing is the only one I can see in my city, but his practise looks really professional. He's actually a chiropractor but has done studies in neuroscience, specialises in brain injury, stroke recovery and things like that.

When I explained my difficulties he seemed as though he had seen my situation quite often. But then again,  I do trust too easily. I'm a bit naive. But I can only give this a go to be sure.

I'll be doing the neurofeedback, I haven't heard much about biofeedback and not really sure on the differences, but I'm sure both are effective.

I posted this link on another thread, but a really interesting read is a book called 'developmental trauma: retraining the fear driven brain' by Sebern fisher. It made me think that it is possible to use this treatment as one of our tools to heal. The only thing that sent alarm bells off for me was her website, the reference links are dead links which is a bit concerning and disappointing.

Hi Deja. Welcome to the forum and I hope you have been inspired back into recovery. It's a tough journey but the feelings my progress gives me outweighs the negative feelings of 'why me' etc that used to take over.

Can't wait to share my experiences with you guys, I'm thinking February I'll be back on track to get neurofeedback.

[Deja]

Hi Laynelove  and Kizzie, thanks for welcoming responses

the book by S Fisher has been highly recommended to me from a few sources and I've looked through it at a workshop so after this post I will order and get it. Thanks again for the inspiration to healthy action.  And I know what you mean by how disappointing dead links are...though when I had a look at her website, Sebern's bookshelf came back with some fabulous books. The Polyvagal theory is also of great interest to me (fits with body work, yoga as well) and I like that she has Thich Nhat Hanh there as well.

Is there a recommended book, audio page on this site? Ill have a look...

I've started going to a course on tibetan buddhism and am enjoying just being in the beauty of the space. I feel safe and lighter there. And yes I will post about whats been happening... a little later.


the other thing about neurofeedback that I found helpful is the website http://www.traumacenter.org/research/Neurofeedback_Study.php

[Kizzie]

Just watched one of Sebern Fisher's video's in which she talks about her first encounter with NFB through a colleague who was very excited  by it.  Interesting that Fisher she thought it was the equivalent of :high priced snake oil" initially, but trusted her friend and after trying it noticed a great reduction in"background ambient fear."  I could definitely stand to feel more of that. 

This seems to me to be something those with CPTSD could really use, a method of seeing how to calm the brain.   I think mindfulness, meditation, yoga, etc probably all serve to calm the brain, but I like the idea of being able to see what my mind is doing and what it needs to do more directly.

My T did mention EMDR as well by the way.  I had a really bad reaction to two sessions way back when with a different T so am quite nervous about trying it again, but the person I saw was not trained in trauma, had no experience with EMDR for CPTSD specifically (and there's a difference) and had not taught me about grounding, safety, etc.  I was new to the diagnosis and didn't know any differently either.  In any event, this T felt I had what's called an "ab reaction" which I think is equivalent to an EF.  He is suggesting some gentle EMDR because it stimulates both halves of the brain electrically so you're "firing on all burners" so to speak. I may give it a whirl, we'll see. It's not as attractive to me because I can't see what's going when we do the back and forth thing with the eyes. BY the way
I had to move my appointment for brain mapping to Thurs next week unfortunately - family car conflict and work must come first. 

Really glad to be able to talk to both of you about this 

[Kizzie]

Forgot to mention I went to the link you included in your post Deja.  It really underscores for me what Fisher mentioned about chemical versus electrical treatment of mental health issues.  The former is a cash cow, while the latter not so much which perhaps explains why it has not been as popular. 

This is why I am attracted to NFB:

As the brain is rewarded for making specific brainwaves, it can gradually learn to re-regulate its own functioning. The mechanism of action is similar to other forms of learning: the more the brain is rewarded while being trained in a desirable frequency, the more it will function in that frequency after training.

[Kizzie]

So a bit of a delay in getting the brain mapping done with my T but went yesterday finally.  I won't get the results for two weeks unfortunately as he has to analyze the data. He did say something to the effect of "OK,  we have something to work with" but wouldn't say anything more.

Just thought I'd report on what the session entailed in case anyone is thinking about having it done. It's quite simple - the T put a cap with electrodes on my head, squirted some gel in a hole in each electrode (so you need to wash your hair afterwards), and poked my skin through each hole with a long pointy thing (which was a little bit stingy), apparently to increase connectivity.  He also attached an electrode on each ear.  I then stared at a dot on the wall while he recorded me - about 5-7 mins, then closed my eyes and was recorded for about another 5-7 mins.  And that was it - easy peasy except for the price tag.  Fortunately I have extended health care coverage but if you don't plan on around $400 ( may be more or less depending on where you are).

He did say that the neurofeedback equipment is expensive and requires a trained professional to interpret which may be why it's not used more (but also that there is biofeedback equipment that people can use on their own to regulate heart rate, breathing, etc).   He also said that research into neurofeedback is not something T's typically get involved in due to the expense (lack of funding, time involved).  He did mention Bessel Van der Kolk and his work in this regard. 

OK, that's all I have to pass along for now - hopefully I'll have more to add in two weeks.