Problems with therapist- help understanding?

[BlueNaiad]

Hello.

Not sure where to post this. I'm new to the forums and quite nervous. Sorry it's so long. Second half is dialogue, so it goes faster. : )

I'm late 40's and  in Therapy to deal with CPTSD-resulting flashbacks, codependency and other issues (due to a uBPD/uNPD mother, neglect, molestation as a child, among other things) and to work on assertiveness and relationship issues.

Now I need to know: Is it me, or was my T messing with me? For several sessions now, I've been trying to address an issue I had with my T of four months. After he basically asked me if I "wanted to just keep complaining" about my sister, then made an unfavorable comparison, and some other lack of empathy I'd noticed,

I've been trying to get him to address the idea that he often doesn't respond to my feelings. He literally changes the subject. And, that sometimes, I don't feel supported, validated, empathized with. And that I need these things from my therapist. (and his "method" is supposedly all about empathy)

And, that he has a tendency to ignore what I say and move on to other things, change the subject. That makes me feel managed.

In fact, I was really depressed last week because this was going on and he didn't seem concerned or to want to address it. It seems I just keep getting in the same situation over and over again, despite how hard I try.

I know I probably just need to move on. I know I have a tendency to try to get people to understand me before moving on. I'm SO working on it.

But I just want to get a reality check on this conversation. I now really feel like he got defensive and stopped tying to help, and was only trying to dominate, put me in my place, as it were.

And I, of course, was JADEing all over the place. Ugh. Horrible old pattern. I had no idea that this could happen with a therapist. I thought it was just a family thing, or a result of my insane attraction to narcissists.

I need to know: Am I nuts to try to address a communication issue with a therapist? Or should I just realize immediately we are incompatible and move on? Previously, he seemed open to communication. And his method is all about feedback, supposedly.

But he really, really did not want to address what was bothering me, and yet would not say so openly.

I have decided not to see him again, but I need some honest, kind feedback about what happened here. I've been involved in much push-pull and circular conversations and have been JADEing all my life, so I often can't see clearly in these situations.



Thank God I recorded our last two sessions, as I could feel things were getting weird. So I know i'm not imagining anything here-at least in terms of what was said and how. This is a direct transcript. (If I hadn't taped the session, I'd be a morass of self-doubt and recrimination right now. Going through it again has helped me learn a lot about myself, interestingly.)

Something a bit similar happened before with a different T (one of the reasons I think I decided to record this one). I know I was probably in flashback, trauma mode, etc. But after going over the transcript, I know it wasn't just me. I need help interpreting this objectively.

Thanks so much.

____________

So, we're having our 4th difficult session, where I am trying yet again to address some things he said/did that disturbed me, when this happens:

He had incorrectly summarized something I'd said and started using it to prove his point about his approach to therapy (about not just being a passive empathetic ear "forever," which is not what I want, and which I've said many times).
I interrupted to say "that's not what I said."
him: "Do you see how you just interrupted me right now?" (He's starting to sound angry)
"Yes, and I apologize, but I wanted to correct what you said before you went on."

—long bit here about how did I feel when I interrupted him? (angry) and how do I think he feels when I interrupt him? (frustrated.)  (this all feels condescending to me, but I ignore it and continue. I realize now I don't' have any real interest in telling him my feelings, because he asks for my feelings, but then doesn't address them. Am I just supposed to state them and magically get better?)

Then he starts saying how instead of naming my feelings, I'm "acting out, blaming, and getting into a 'right and wrong thing.'

[first of all, my goal is to address what I see as a communication problem, not name my feelings. But I don't' think to say this, unfortunately—I'm starting to feel confused.]

I interrupt again.
me: "I don't' think its' blaming to say that you misinterpreted something that I said. That is not blaming. If I said something and you summarize it in a different way, then I have the right to say 'no, that is not correct.' That is not blaming. That is not saying you're wrong, it is not saying you're a bad person....it is simply saying you didn't interpret what I said correctly."

Him: "Uh huh. Riiiiight. Telling me that I'm wrong and you're right. That's not blaming."

Me (agitated); "No, telling you that you misinterpreted what I said is not blaming. I am rectifying a misunderstanding... to say 'no, you've got me wrong there.' That is my basic right, to say that you've got me wrong there."
him: "Yeah, to say "you're wrong and I'm right."
me: "Oh, jesus. Ok. This is not working for me." (starting to get angry)

Me: "If I can't be right about what I said. then I guess yeah, that's what I'm saying: I'm right about what I said and you're wrong about what I said. IS THAT BAD?"

Then he says: "Uh huh. (pause.) That's different than sharing your feelings with me." (no kidding)
Me (now quite agitated): "I shared my feelings with you before. You misinterpreted them. and I'm telling you that you did that. That is still part of sharing my feelings. I'm trying to make sure you got them right before you go on to build an argument on top of it."

"So you're perceiving me as trying to build an argument."

"Well, you're telling me how you work. Ok. granted I'm being a bit defensive, but I feel that way because you were being a bit blaming saying that I wanted you to listen to me for 8 years before saying anything and that's not the case."

Me (more agitated) "You know, I am just not feeling supported right now."
him: "Yeaaaah. what are you feeling towards me right now?"

"I feel like want this all to be about me. You won't admit that you change the subject on me and you won't admit you do sometimes get impatient because you don't want to hear people complain all day long. And you even said that to me about "complaining." And you know what, that's not ok. it's not ok to say that to your therapy patient: do you want to just keep complaining?"

Me: "I agree that only listening to my feelings would be doing me a disservice. But you know what, there's a way to do it. What I'm talking about is very different. If you do it covertly and just change the subject without telling me what's going on, then I feel manipulated. If you do it honestly and transparently and say 'ok right now I feel that you're, you know, that you're expressing and I feel that we could take a more productive route right now and you make some comment as to what you're doing and why you're changing course, then you're doing it consciously and I'm a participant and not a puppet. Do you see the difference? That's what I'm talking about—"

him (interrupts): "So, you're feeling like a puppet right now." (this was infuriating—to reduce everything I just said to that.)

"No, not right now. Right now, I'm feeling angry, very angry."
Me: Angry and defensive "and like (his name) wants this to be all about me."

"Yes, I'm not hearing cooperation here, like' let's talk about this' and 'maybe I come off that way, but that's not what I mean' and I can understand how you feel that way but that's not what I intended' or..."

Him: "Yeah, I think you're perceiving it the way I am. That if I am to help you with your relational life, The way that I could that would be if you were interested in having it be all about you."

me, (fully angry, finally): "I have to address how I'm treated in relationships. That is one of my main goals in life right now, is assertiveness and saying I do not like this dynamic. OK If I can't say that with you, then I feel that we have a problem—"

Him  (interrupting me completely): You know, focusing on you and what you're doing in relationship may not be your cup of tea." (he is totally projecting here. I am constantly looking at my behavior. I probably do it too much.)
him: "This is really the only way I know to help people change relationships is by focusing on them..."

me: "Ok, So then you're not willing to listen to the feedback I'm giving you on the way that you talk to me, that's what you're saying. "
Him: "Uh."
"As far as I can tell, your whole method is all about that. Even your little forms after every session are all about that. Let me know how much you felt appreciated, understood, helped. I'm telling you there is something that is happening that is very disturbing to me...."

—more crap as he changes the subject again, but I called him on it.

The end of our session:
me "I don't' know what to say, honestly. If I don't feel safe, if I don't' feel like you really want to hear what I have to say and I can even talk about the way that you talk to me, then I don't know. "

him: "I'm not here to do Psychotherapy"  (ugh. super condescending and annoying. his voice drips with anger)
"I'm not asking you to do therapy I'm asking you to recognize that several things have happened that I'm not comfortable with."

"yeah. is there one of those you'd like to tell me about? Or that you'd like my help with high now."

(long pause. Here we go again. As i consider with intense irritation and a bit of panic, the prospect of telling him about this problem for the 3d or 4th time. At this point, I can't think clearly, which would be: just stop. Just give it up. He's not listening. So I keep arguing, trying to prove my point.)

Me, finally: "And we can try to talk about it AGAIN?"
"I'm just checking in with you to see if there's something in particular you'd like my help with during these next few minutes together."

me: "See, I feel like we've just gone in another circle. And everything the we just went through meant nothing. Because it's not finished. Right when we get towards the end you veer off."
(I let out a huge sigh.)

him: "What are you feeling towards me right now."

'I'm feeling manipulated, again honestly. You don't like what was going on, so you changed the topic again. Um. I've never felt like this honestly, in therapy, and uh, it's not a good feeling."
"Uhhh. Riiiight, what are the names of your emotions."
"Well, I feel like I can't trust you, like you're manipulating me. You intend to remain in control, you're driving the bus, and I'd better like it or get off. Because this is not about me. (here, I start laughing)"

him: "I noticed I asked you the names of your feelings and you didn't quite give me an answer. did you notice that too?"

(now, I'm pissed.) "No, I did give you an answer. You just didn't like it. But I gave you an answer."
"What you said was "i feel manipulated." which is actually a form of attack masquerading as an I feel statement."
Me: "Oh, that's an attack? I'm attacking you?" (now I'm getting sarcastic).
"Well, I don't' know how to put that into words. I feel manipulated, I feel pushed around, I feel put down, angry, sad, at my wit's end as to how to make this be ok. I feel betrayed. and I feel controlled. and I don't like it."

HIm: "Is there one of those feelings you'd like my help with?" (this, phrase, by the way, infuriates me. What the * am I telling him all this for, if I don't' want his help with it.)
"I feel criticized, I feel judged."
"Do you hear what you just slipped back into?
"It's how I feel. How am I supposed to say that in a non-attacking way. Tell me." (I'm honestly asking)
"Do you want me to answer that?"
"Yes."
"Do you promise not to interrupt?" (this, to me, is extremely controlling, as he has interrupted more than I have by this point. and my interruptions were because he was misinterpreting.)

—Then he goes off on to how it's a common communication error, etc. But he never tells me how to say it.
So, I interrupt.
"and my question to you, which I believe you said you'd answer was 'how do I say I feel manipulated' in a way that doesn't blame. I'm honestly asking you how to say that."

Again, he points out the time and asks if I want to stay on this track. Then he repeats my question (above). "Is that the question? Ok. great question."
"I would say manipulation is not an emotion. If I perceive that another person is trying to manipulate me, I would feel other emotions... essentially it would be differentiating between a behavior and the emotions that might come up."
"So you're saying I'm not allowed to say when I feel someone is manipulating me." (and not have it be an "attack")
"You can say whatever you want." and on into a circular conversation about his methods. The 5 secrets. yet, again. I respond that I didnt' think the 5 secrets were mean to be a substitute for communication, but a way in. (I didn't think to say that I didn't realize I would be chastised if I didnt' use them with my T)

finally towards the end I say again:
"I am just not feeling supported right now." (chorus and refrain)

him: "Yeah what are you feeling about me right now?"

Me: "I don't feel a lot of support. I don't feel a lot of validation. I don't feel any "oh, I realize what you're doing right now is very painful...and I'm hearing a lot about how I'm doing this wrong."
him: "We have 2 minutes, would you like to look at some possible homework?"
Me: Pause. "So, everything I just said then, you're not going to respond to that?"
Pause. "Um. Yeah. What are you feeling right now towards me?"
me: "Um." Long pause. "I just said... See this is what I do not do well with. I just said a bunch of things that I feel you did not respond to that and then you went on to something else. This is what bothers me, ok? To me it feels like my feelings are just being erased, like they don't matter...  I cannot handle this feeling. I have lived this too many times." (now I'm really crying)

him: "Yeah, this is a familiar and painful place for you in relationship. (said in a monotone) We're out of time now, so I'm going to say goodbye for now." (Big smile.)
Me: (laughing and crying at the same time.) "Great." (sarcastic)
"And, we could pick up here on Friday. This might be an important place for us to pick up. Or someplace else if you prefer." {all of this while completely ignoring my emotions.}
Me: "Oh, goody! Great."
"Ok, goodbyeeee" (singsongy)
Me: crying and laughing.
he signs off.

[BlueNaiad]

I forgot to say we're working by skype, as I'm out of the country. thanks.

[Butterfly]

Well I don't know but it I were paying for therapy I'd want someone to work with what I need from the session and not trigger me all over the place. Just reading through some of the dialog is terribly triggering for me, awful. It's good you've decided not to return and I hope you find someone compatible.

Understandably therapists want to see us make progress but I'm not sure his methods are suite to someone with cPTSD.

I'm sorry you had this experience.

[tired]

Him: "Uh huh. Riiiiight. Telling me that I'm wrong and you're right. That's not blaming."--- This is sarcasm, which is very inappropriate for anyone, much less a therapist.

This sounds like someone who is trying to be an analyst but has no training in psychoanalysis.  This type of therapy, which is meant to uncover certain types of issues that he seems to be getting at, should only be done by someone who has gone through intense psychoanalytical training which includes analysis for them as well. They have to "pass" their own analysis so they don't bring their own issues into the therapeutic setting, which is what he is doing. 

This person should try another profession, like dog sitting.  Look up his credentials.  I strongly doubt that he is qualified to do what he's trying to do.

[tired]

I also think that you would really do well in analysis because you seem to understand how to talk about yourself, your motivations, and how you talk to people.  (Not everyone can do that, and not all analysts will take on patients for that kind of intense self-examination).  I think you should trust your instincts, because they are pretty sharp. Don't doubt yourself.

[BlueNaiad]

Thank you. Oh, that helps so much. Sorry it was triggering for you, Butterfly. I had no idea it would be. SHould I mark it as such?

Thanks, Tired. I've been working at this a long time, and it seems I'm just beginning to figure things out. I've never worked with an actual psychoanalyst, just therapists. Perhaps I should try that.

This guy is an LCSW with "25 years of experience" (messing with people's heads?)   

What do I say to tell him I'm done? I have a feeling he thinks everything is fine. Am I right in thinking I have to fight the urge to "educate" him or tell him what he did?

[tired]

I had one encounter with a social worker as therapist. She diagnosed me with OCD and alcoholism which are so far from the truth it's ridiculous.  She put me on a high dose of paxil for ocd (I assume it was ok'd by a doctor somewhere) and it put me into a hypomanic state resulting in a 20,000 spending spree.

You don't owe him any explanations.  If you want to walk away, you have every right to do so.  If you don't respect him or want anything more to do with him just go. If you think it will help you to explain, then do that.  But this is all about you, and your needs, so take care of you.

[Dutch Uncle]

Good grief! That's nerve-wrecking!
It seems most of the therapy is about the relationship between you two. That can't be what it should be.

I had to look up LCSW and found this interesting link: http://www.humanservicesedu.org/lcswvspsychologist.html
By looking at that site, would you say you want an LCSW or a psychologist for your therapy?

As Tired has said, it doesn't seem this guy has the skills for psychological therapy.

What do I say to tell him I'm done? I have a feeling he thinks everything is fine. Am I right in thinking I have to fight the urge to "educate" him or tell him what he did?

You don't have to tell him anything, like Tired said. And you certainly should fight to urge to "educate" him. It's not your job, and he won't listen to that either. You'll waste another session, for which you pay (I assume). He'll stonewall you again.

Is this guy really Licensed, or does he just say he is?

[BlueNaiad]

Thanks again, Tired. Sorry you had such a horrible experience! God.

Dutch Uncle, Thanks for the link. Very educational. I see your point. Would you believe...this guy actually trains other therapists? (in the "communication" method he uses). He really seemed fine for three months. A bit dogmatic, somewhat unresponsive, but well-meaning. Problems only started when I called him on some things he said that bothered me, and then I realized he kept shifting things to not address them, which triggered me, etc. I'm often quite late to pick up the cues...

But now, I know for sure it was not working, and I know a little better what I need in a T. And I can move on.

And you're right. I don't think he'd listen. And I think I need to get past my own obsessive need to explain and just trust what I feel. I sent a very short note simply saying I'm not coming back and he didn't bother to respond. So that, right there, tells me quite a bit.

I hate the thought of starting over, again... will take some time off, I think. and then look for a Psychologist...and perhaps challenge them right off the bat, ten minutes into the first session, and see how it goes. : )

[Butterfly]

Oh Blue! Not triggering for me! Sorry I didn't explain more clearly! I meant if your therapist is triggering you then why go? What I meant to convey is:  If I was paying for therapy only to have been triggered into an episode then it would be a complete waste of money for me.