Feel like giving up..and T.

[Sienna]

Thanks Sanmagic7

T said the writing a song statement in reply to me saying,..i cant really remember anymore...
I was talking about empathy...and i said that sometimes, when she says that she is sad or angry that someone said something to me...or that something happened, that i find it hard to believe and i asked her if she really feels those feelings, because i am just another client.
She said she does and i said that, it doesnt seem like she does, because she seems very relaxed a bug things, oh yes- i said- *you don't *seem* angry*.

All the stuff about my X- we are over and I'm not going back even if he wanted me in the future.
Not sure if this is what you were saying, but i want you to know, that T didnt say that it was all in my head- my X said my feelings were irrational.

he didn't need to do anything nasty on his way out.  that's uncalled for.
and then, he's parading a new girlfriend around in front of you?  that's just being mean.  i don't think he's a very nice person, and you deserve better.
I believe he is a narc. I don't think my T thinks this. She asked me last session what i think happened in the relationship...what i think he is...even though i already told her i think X is a narc,
so i avoided her question...because i was afraid she would think my *theory* was stupid or that she would say its wrong.
I didnt understand why she was asking me again.

Oh yes, the thing that i forgot to mention about her saying that I also abandoned my X-
i was most bothered by the comment - not because it is true-
but because she never said this to me before.
She only said it (for the first time)- when i stopped and said...wait- I'm always saying *when he left*..thinking it sounded stupid.

as for my funerals, my tendency all my life was not to allow any so-called 'negative' feelings, especially anger, sadness, jealousy, opinions, personal discomfort, hate, and that includes anything that might make another person uncomfortable.  i was programmed to take care of others first, always, no matter what might be going on with me. 
Im sorry to hear this.

so, at this point in my life, i'm finally not only allowing, but encouraging any types of feelings that i wasn't allowed to acknowledge, -
Yay!

Im so sorry to hear that your friend is not a very nice person. Ugh. sometimes it hurts so much.
I hope new, and nice people will come round the corner for you, for whenever you are ready.
I find present losses really hard to deal with. So, yes...you are doing an amazing thing.

and, yes, i was concerned that with what i was going to say you might think i was invalidating you or taking your t's side, and i wanted to make it clear that i had no intention of doing that. 
Its ok. Im sorry you worried and if you are still worried- thats ok too...i hope you know that. Sorry you have worried. And thank you for putting a trigger warning and for explaining that your not taking sides etc.

You are right that if i don't talk to her, ill probably keep guessing.
Maybe making this thread...was kind of pointless...as know one is telling me what to do- and maybe thats because its not their place...maybe i didnt ask for that...and also...its not their place perhaps to tell me. And = i cant remember all of the details and red flags that i questioned..and i lost my notes on them...so i cant write about this properly.

I may figure it out- I'm just worried that i would be wrong for leaving and that id have the whole situation wrong.
But, all i can do, is wait it out.

Thank you for your input Sanmagic. 

[Danaus plexippus]

Dear Sienna,

I asked my inner child about all this. she said I should answer my former Doc's "What do you want from me?" by saying "I want you to go take a flying leap for yourself!" Then my inner child said you should answer you T by saying "Yeah, write me a song and sing it for me too!"

Dear SanMagic7,

I like your idea of funerals. Thanks for going into details. I just might give it a shot.

[Sienna]

Danaus, hahahaha!
God, this is hilarious!
I asked my inner child about all this. she said I should answer my former Doc's "What do you want from me?" by saying "I want you to go take a flying leap for yourself!"
ah, thats great!
Instead of muttering, *no.* to her question..- i should have said, *YES!*
*Yes, of course thats what i want you to do!! Now hop to it lady!*

i havent managed to see the funny side of this - so thank you!

Im glad that your inner child is having her input. 

I like your idea of funerals. Thanks for going into details. I just might give it a shot.
Nice one Danaus. 

[Sienna]

maybe its not important, but i just remember exactly what she said to me. It was, *what do you want me to do? Make a big song about it*. good, got that down. thats the truth and its now on paper.

[Danaus plexippus]

Did she by any chance happen to say "make a song and dance" That would be even better, because then she could "Shuffle off to Buffalo." 

[sanmagic7]

love the humor here.  and, danaus, you're welcome.  if you do give them a go, i hope they help.

[Sienna]

ok people...would someone mind telling me what they think of my T's responses to a few things?
Im just remembering them now, whilst i should be asleep. (i know i sound obsessed and i hope know one is annoyed that i cant make a decision.
i want to know before i talk to her about it..if i ever can...if i can i will at some point...just not now.)

I don't say *I feel*, and maybe she's forgotten, but she asked me once if i ever said *i feel...* to my partner and i said no.
Isn't this an important thing for her to remember? Shouldnt she bear in mind that i really struggle with this? With expressing feelings?

My question is, do people only empathise with others, if an *i FEEL* is said???
What about saying *i think...*?

Me: I worry about what people think of me...
T: What does it matter what people think of you?
Me: (Defences up, pretending i don't really care what others think, after feeling invalidated), well, it doesnt really! Now that you put it like that, I I mean, it doesnt effect me or change my life..so why on earth should it bother me?!*

Next:
Me: (About this guy i liked and who didnt like me back. Me assuming what he thinks of me, maybe outer critic stuff)...I just think that he thinks that I'm just too young
T: Well he is probably worried about what it would look like, because the age gap is quite big
(It took me a lot to tell her how old he was compared to me, and i told her at first that i couldnt tell her for fear that she might think it was too weird because of the age gap)

Me: I havent been eating (Due to self destruction, neglecting my health, not caring about myself)
T: Well you will eat when your feel like it
(The discussion didnt go any further, and i was trying to tell her how i was doing of late. Again, i brought this up with her after ages of not doing so)

Me: (talking about my worry that she is lacking empathy)  Its just that, sometimes, when yo say you feel sad or angry, to me, you don't seem like you really feel it
T: What do you want me to do about it? Make a big song about it?
Me: no.
Was she inducing guilt? Weather on purpose or not...Because i felt shame and guilt after that.

If you have read ...thank you V much.

[Sesame]

I haven't read everything, but would like to reply with my thoughts on your therapist's responses.

I don't say *I feel*, and maybe she's forgotten, but she asked me once if i ever said *i feel...* to my partner and i said no.
Isn't this an important thing for her to remember? Shouldnt she bear in mind that i really struggle with this? With expressing feelings?

This is something I struggled with early on, before I even realised I could have C-PTSD. In fact, before anyone believed it could exist. I found it very difficult sometimes to identify and share my feelings with someone because I had been ignored and told to suck it up for so long I guess I numbed them down until I didn't know what I felt any more.

To answer your question, yes, as your therapist this is an important thing to remember. I am not a therapist, but I think her job is to gently push you towards becoming more functional in areas such as this. However, it shouldn't be something you feel you can't even do at the moment. Doesn't that just make any patient feel like healing and recovering is impossible if they're presented with tasks that are too difficult?

My question is, do people only empathise with others, if an *i FEEL* is said???
What about saying *i think...*?

`I think' is fine, but if you struggled with feelings in a similar way to me, it's necessary to work on it gradually. It's something that is important in relationships with people.

Me: I worry about what people think of me...
T: What does it matter what people think of you?
Me: (Defences up, pretending i don't really care what others think, after feeling invalidated), well, it doesnt really! Now that you put it like that, I I mean, it doesnt effect me or change my life..so why on earth should it bother me?!*

Sounds like she's trying to point out it isn't important, but not in the best way. It would have made me feel defensive as well, as if the problem is not people judging me, but me `making a big deal' out of it. Thing is, it cannot be helped unless your therapist helps you manage it. Of course you know it shouldn't bother you! I know that too, but that logic doesn't help stop the feelings of being scrutinised and negatively assessed and all the resulting feelings.

Me: (About this guy i liked and who didnt like me back. Me assuming what he thinks of me, maybe outer critic stuff)...I just think that he thinks that I'm just too young
T: Well he is probably worried about what it would look like, because the age gap is quite big
(It took me a lot to tell her how old he was compared to me, and i told her at first that i couldnt tell her for fear that she might think it was too weird because of the age gap)

This goes back to worrying about what others think and, while it doesn't sound horribly judgemental, given what you said earlier, she might have guessed you would feel like you're being judged! Even so, it is true society judges age-gap relationships negatively (I'm in one) and I think she was trying to put you in his head to stop you beating yourself up over the rejection. For example, let's say you're doing a survey about healthcare, but one man you ask refuses and is incredibly rude to you. In that moment, you probably feel awful. Anyone with C-PTSD might start attacking themselves at this point, believing it's their fault, they deserve it, etc. Though then you realise that you are very close to the bus stop for a bus that includes a major hospital in its route and wonder if perhaps this man came from there and feels healthcare has let him down because a family member is dying in hospital. Maybe it's a rubbish example, but can you see how getting out of your own head and analysing others can change our feelings about bad events? I think she was trying to do that for you.

Me: I havent been eating (Due to self destruction, neglecting my health, not caring about myself)
T: Well you will eat when your feel like it
(The discussion didnt go any further, and i was trying to tell her how i was doing of late. Again, i brought this up with her after ages of not doing so)

This sounds rather flippant. Does she even realise it's an important issue? Have you told her anything more specific than not eating?

Me: (talking about my worry that she is lacking empathy)  Its just that, sometimes, when yo say you feel sad or angry, to me, you don't seem like you really feel it
T: What do you want me to do about it? Make a big song about it?
Me: no.
Was she inducing guilt? Weather on purpose or not...Because i felt shame and guilt after that.

Sounds like an angry and defensive reaction to me. Is she always lacking empathy, or is it only sometimes? I can imagine that, if I were a therapist, I may not feel up to empathising with everyone all day. Of course, I would care, but I bet listening and hearing all the things people have lived through can be exhausting. Not only mentally, but also emotionally. I am an empathetic person, but can easily tire myself identifying with others. Was this at the end of the day? End of a long work week? There are of course therapists that you should run away from, but there are also many who are only human. Maybe if you tell us more, we can help you decide for yourself?

I'm sorry you're struggling so much right now, Sienna. Just know that there are people here who will always listen, try to offer advice and I'm sure you'll make it through! 

[mourningdove]

ok people...would someone mind telling me what they think of my T's responses to a few things?

"Time for a new therapist." That's what I would be thinking if my T said those things.

[Sienna]

Thank you so much Sesame!

I had been ignored and told to suck it up for so long I guess I numbed them down until I didn't know what I felt any more. 
I understand completely, and I'm sorry it was this way for you too.

Doesn't that just make any patient feel like healing and recovering is impossible if they're presented with tasks that are too difficult?
Sure. Im not sure if she is *presenting* me with tasks that are too difficult..maybe quite the opposite- there are no tasks.
But I feel i have to do this myself...i know trust etc has to come from me and that know one can force you to trust and open up. she isn't helping me to open up..i mean..it takes time..but after everything I'm not sure i ever will be able to.

Sure yes, its necessary to work on saying *i feel*.
So..people do empathise when others say, *i think*?
As my T should apparently know that i find it hard to say *i feel*...shouldnt she meet me where I'm at, and at least empathise?

I use logic always to push feelings, problems etc. down.
She is like my X doing this- using logic.
Thank you for helping me to put that into words- about the logic. Thank you for understanding.
Um yes maybe....if she is trying to put me inside someone else head to help me see....she shouldnt i odnt think...becsause i said to her that the age gap is big....doesnt that represent the fact that i know that...and then saying that i think he sees me as just being really young....
i said before i said that, that these feelings have been comming up since he found out i liked him and said no...
so..am i crazy for thinking that she should have explored what I'm saying with me?
Did she know that it didnt feel good at all, to feel *too young for him*, even though i logically know why?
logic didnt fix it.

I feel I'm not working through stuff with her. All the difficult feelings i had about this dude...i stuffed them and havent felt them since.
My inner critic went away regarding that.
She said that session to work on how I'm feeling...and last session i told her i couldnt because it was too big. That why i brought it to her in the first place, as well as wanting understanding about why i was suddenly feeling these things i don't normally feel.
Maybe what i wanted her to say is something maybe a good mother might say...such as that he missed out...or I'm a great person...something...those things that i cant tell myself (if they are true)
Someone on here and i can't remember their name...but they said that maybe I'm just not *his type*, which makes the fact that he didnt want to get with me...more about his preferences, rather than that theres something deeply wrong with me, and i felt a little better.
It was like a curtain of dark stuff had been lifted.

maybe she was trying to help. It just didnt help. How do i tell if she is doing it to be mean..or if she is genuinely trying to help?
maybe it doesnt matter. if she's not helping- she's not helping...


About the eating...i hadn't told her anything else. i guess theres not much more to say, apart from when it started, the times i am triggered to not eat...the feelings and thoughts that go along with it.

My perceptions are so ... damaged i guess.. that i don't know if she is lacking empathy or not...and i can't just trust my feelings when i feel invalidated...
i freeze when i feel invalidated by her then move on to something else in the session..i never question her ..its like a reflex in which i cant think at the time...
then invalidation or feeling invalidated makes me not make notes on the session...i don't think about it...i cant...and then I'm further confused cos I'm not looking at it.
if i try to look at stuff... i get myself in knots.

It was near the end of the day...not the last appointment she has like two after me or three.
it was the middle of the week.
i cant have an unempathetic therapist, no matter how much i get and understand her reasons.
its just cos...im paying..and paying emotionally too. i want to work on stuff and i cant if i feel i cant talk to her.

I cant remember much of stuff....thanks for helping me to figure it out..ill write if i remember any more or if anything else happens.
like, i remember some but not all of something she said.

I'm sorry you're struggling so much right now, Sienna. Just know that there are people here who will always listen, try to offer advice and I'm sure you'll make it through!  Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. Thanks for your reply and for being so patient. 

[sanmagic7]

hey, sienna,

i think at one point i talked about people simply not 'fitting' together.  no blame, no shame, no judgment, it's just not a good fit.  that can happen in all kinds of relationships, even parent/child relationships.  just because there's an attraction doesn't mean that two people will make a good 'fit'. 

i am a therapist, and some of the things you wrote about what your therapist said are difficult to interpret because there are different ways to say the same thing - voice tone, inflection, eye contact, body language, etc.  but, no matter what time of the day it is, what day of the week, how difficult other clients are, the therapist's job is to be 'present' for each client, to give full attention, to support, to show compassion for struggles, to guide, to nudge (if that's what's needed - but gently or with humor, whatever works best for the client), to teach, and just to 'be there' for whatever the client presents.  really, the only justification i'd allow for a therapist not to be all those things with a client is if s/he is coming down with a physical illness.  even then, a conscientious therapist would tell the client about that, and say something about 'i may be a little off today - i can feel a cold coming on, so forgive me if i miss something".  just an example.  it would give the client fair warning, but that doesn't mean that a good session couldn't ensue anyway.

to tell you the truth, i'm not seeing much of that with what you've written.  especially, the comment about the song.  you've written it in a fuller context in this post, and the response sounds like out and out defensive sarcasm from your therapist.  i can see where her comment 'you'll eat when you feel like it' could be said in a very kind, gentle tone, but i would have added explanation or something else to it.  as it stands, like someone mentioned, it sounds flippant, abrupt, short.

personally, sienna, i think your gut is telling it like it is.  i think you can trust it.  if you're not feeling comfortable, if you don't believe you can ask her what you need to know, if you're not getting clear, respectful answers to your questions, if you don't feel like you can make progress on your issues because a bunch of crap is getting in the way . . . it sounds like your therapist is not a good fit for you.  these are all issues you've addressed in your post.  i personally think they're relevant, and they sound like they are preventing you from moving forward in your recovery.

besides, this isn't the first time you've written about this therapist in this way.  maybe she's gonna be off in one session, for whatever reason, but this sounds repetitive.  and, you're hurting as a result.  not only that, like you said, you're not able to make forward progress.  and, how could you with all these concerns from session to session?

so, i won't tell you what to do, but, like i said, i think you can trust your gut on this.  it's not easy to leave a therapist, it's not easy to find another, one who is a better fit, but if you're not getting your recovery needs met, it sounds like you're wasting money and time.  just my opinion.  as always, best to you with this.

[Sienna]

Hey Sanmagic7

I know about not being a good fit. My post wasnt to have validation that she is mean, though of course it crosses my mind..and i worry she is a narc or that she is playing mind games.
If were not a good fit and thats that thats cool..and maybe not being a good fit means that she isn't addressing things...or speaking to me in that relational..sort of way i need...
and i wonder if that means she is a bad therapist...i mean she says she works with PTsD and trauma etc....
but maybe they can be like that.
Maybe they are not all empathic. maybe I'm a bit odd and need empathy in places where most people wouldnt...i don't know...

thank you very much for your opinion on what i had written. I appreciate it very much, so thank you for taking the time.

I always worry that my gut is wrong.
And i worry that my gut is *my gut feelings*....and that they are not in conjunction with reality.
I mean, what if i distrust another therapist should i see another? What if its ME with the trust problem?
Sure i have trust issues...but I'm not sure if its the trust issues that is getting in the way...blinding me to something that is actually good.

.  i personally think they're relevant, and they sound like they are preventing you from moving forward in your recovery.
Thanks.

Thank you so much Sanmagic7. I hope your doing ok.

[Sienna]

I just want to offload a little...im not questioning anyones opinions here...or looking for answers.
Session was fine today.
I am paranoid that she is intentionally using the things i spoke about such as, my dad talking over me when i am talking annoys me..in purpose...
(with x lady friend who was a narc...she did this...her own defence mechanism...i wont go into the story...but she did this in an email..throwing personal things i had said to her and trusted her with, in my face...
T thought she did it to intentionally hurt me..
anyway..i feel awful that she felt so bad but my X had to bring up her behaviour with her but he did it in a respectful way.)

so yes..i expressed the concern when T asked me what I'm afraid of about opening up to her...
But i don't know if she is doing it now.

I hadn't finished talking..and she's never done this before..only by accident and apologised...but she started asking me another question...and i hadn't finished...(i would understand if i spoke too much but i don't speak enough)
i took a breath whilst i was trying to get the next words out...and she cut in with a question.
Everything in my being wanted to ask her if she knew i wasnt finished..but i squashed it and thought to myself, that this is a red flag to watch out for, and that ill see if there are any more that come up through out this session.

It might have been an accident and its too scary for me right now to ask her even in a nice way for fear of how she might react. I worry it would be unsafe with her in the room- just the two of us..and my crazy thoughts wonder if she would stop me from leaving if i had to leave.
It did remind me of my dad.
Maybe I'm blind to this stuff...but she is perhaps very subtle...

She also said, like she did another time, that i need to figure out what kind of relationship i want with my dad.
This time i said that I'm too angry with him at the moment to make a proper decision as to weather i want that or not...
and she said she was only suggesting that ..if thats what i want...

She said that dad does care about me, he just doesnt know how to care properly. He doesnt know how to be there for me.
One time she said *maybe your dad doesnt care about you*
So i said today, do you remember saying that dad might not care about me..and she said she doesnt remember...
Today- what i should have said to her, is that I'm confused...(just didnt think of it at the time)
I'm confused because she suggested that dad doesnt care about me...
(whilst also saying that his behaviour isn't his fault)
but today, she said that WHAT SHE MEANT -
was that he doesnt know how to care about me...but that inside himself, he does care about me.
She was surprised today that i thought that none of my family cared about me.
My narc mum I'm sure doesnt have the proper capacity to care about me. She used me by emotionally abusing me as it made her feel better...

She said that it is up to me to have a relationship with my dad
She asked if ive tried
i said yes...i told her about dad in the garden after my X sneakily rang him and dad was so invalidating.
She said that as dad wont change, unfortunately it has to be me that has to change in order for the relationship to work.

I was so angry and started having heart palpitations and tears-
i told her that the narc lady who was so damaging who left me...
she said that i am the one who has to make it right with my mum- because my mum isn't going to.
When i saw T for the first time...she said that that was wrong-
that i am still the child, and that i don't have to fix everything.
She said that if i want a relationship with him, i have to make the move.
I told her i feel ive tried everything. She went on about how dad is using vulnerability and being a victim to make me feel guilty.
I had to tell her the same story again - she forgets, which I'm not sure is her fault or not.

She said that if it was her, she would have it out with my dad ...(when i answer the phone to him which i try not to do too much)
She said this before...that the anger would be directed at the right person.
I feel its unsafe to do that, and with my mother who is a narc...in response to her messages, if i expressed my anger to wards her, i might suffer repercussions that are damaging to my mental health.
Im not sure Ts that experienced in narcissism...so she might not get it.

im not sure if letting anger out at parents is good advice...
she didnt offer an alternative to dealing with my anger.
Is that because i should have asked for one???

She says that as my dad is the better one out of him and mum, a relationship could be possible, but I'm not sure...
im not sure if a relationship will ever be a good one with my dad
and i told her that dad hurt me so much by not doing anything about my mother (even if its not his fault and he was scared). I thought he was my everything when i was little.

But she also said its ok to be angry with my dad, and that i should not be so hard on myself about my anger.

Mixed messages??
I feel like this T is twisting my head.
I leave feeling crazy, that my perceptions have been wrong all this time...that i misunderstood what she meant...but i remember what she said and they don't match up.

I cant even remember most of the session.
I couldnt help but say that I'm so confused..but she just lets me leave confused...because time is up.
i cant relax because I'm constantly trying to work out what she means, if things add up, if its a red flag.

She knows i feel bad after sessions but never questions out loud in the room- if it could be because of something she said.

Yet again, after this session , she said , i don't feel i have helped you much.
And truth is, she hadn't.

Something felt wrong. And i wonder...if its my own untrustworthiness, me just misunderstanding things- being so confused makes me feel like I'm crazy.
What does it even feel like when something feels wrong...
i should know because it did with my X,
but she is not him...so what if its me with the problem?

I also think she is a flight type. Thought it when she reacted the way she did to something i said once...
but she said she would just be angry and speak up to her parents ... so maybe she is a fight type.

Just needed to offload that. Thanks.

[Three Roses]

You're welcome, sienna. I'm sorry you're going thru this.

[Sienna]

Aw, thanks Three Roses. Hope your doing ok