Don't envy the Narcissist success

[LeonLaviu]

Trigger warning? maybe?

I saw a post the other day that I didn't get to comment, cause I had to go. And now I can't find it.

But between other things, she mentioned how she compared to her NPD ex, and how succesful he is in his career. And I've seen that as a common thing that narcissists are succesful on their careers. But you shouldn't envy them and here is why:

Ok, first of all, I know we all hate narcs in here, and that may make us feel like they're less, and we feel superior moraly. But that can also blind us to see how many good qualitys they have (used selfishly, but they're still amazing)


I think this applies more to covert types, but here we go:


1- Narcissist are very very smart. I don't really know why or how, but in my experience they are. Maybe cause they're strategic. I don't know


2- There's a hard truth we need to accept. MERITOCRACY DOESN'T EXIST. at least not 99% of the time. We are social animals, so being good socially is the most importan thing to succeed in a human society. Great minds like Steve Jobs or Elon Musk (I don't like them, but I'm making a point) They didn't create their empire, they found the right people, put them together, gave them direction and had massive success, because they were socially smart. so...

Narcissists are great at manipulating people and getting the best of them, so that's whey they succeed so easily career wise


3- Narcissist are very aware of what others may think or find interesting, they are always scanning for that. So in a way they can predict what will work in certain environment, so they'll probably make good decisions on their jobs


4-They're chameleonic. They change their tastes, and personalities for whatever they need, and since they're psychopaths they will do whatever they need, and be whoever they need to get the results they want.


But the thing is, they don't have a vision. They just do what they know will work. They don't really take risks. What they do has no soul cause they are slaves of success, slaves of being seen as great. They are not actually free to do what they really want. They don't propose anything new. They are terrified of proposing what they would really like.

If you, a C-PTSD survivor, have fought all your life to even exist, to be treated as a human being. You know what is like to be afraid and go through it.

You might not be as succesful as a narcissist right now, but that narc success is shallow. When you have a truth, a vision, is more important to be truthful and honest than to be easily succesful. When you finally succeed, you'll feel great knowing you didn't conform, and you didn't sell out for cheap approval

You are free from that approval, cause you never had it, and you are here, you survived.

And I know we all crave it, we are humans after all. But we won't get it if we succeed being fake. We have to learn other social skills maybe and have other visions about yourself.

Success = being loved and accepted.   That´s a trap. And you should separate both in order to really be succesful career wise.

the people that really changed the world, had an oppresive amount of resistance and opposition from the regular people, but they didn´t care, they had a vision, they had a higher goal than being socialy approved.

So keep going.

You can be succesful, and also be loved an accepted, one may come first than the other. But they are parallel to eachother.

[Chart]

Hey Leon, really interesting stuff. I really appreciate a new "angle" on narcissists. I agree with pretty much everything you've discussed here. One caveat:
" 1- Narcissist are very very smart."
Narcissists are smart, but in a one-track manner only. Since they don't have to be bothered by certain aspects of reality (like truth and honesty) they're freed up to use their mental powers for self-advancement. They also THINK they're smart, but in reality they're not anywhere near what we would equate with balanced healthy, comprehensive intelligence. I've seen my ex-wife consistently do things that have caught up with her afterwards. She doesn't have the intelligence to foresee the consequences of her actions (lies).

Thanks for a great topic! You've helped me forget for ten minutes my EF (emotional flashback) that I'm drowning in at the moment!
 

[Kizzie]

I personally have never envied a narcissist because their values conflict so completely with my own. They are successful because they are predatory, not smart IMO. They are willing to do things decent people would never consider and that is the source of their "strength". Step on people, manipulate them, look out for themselves before all else - why on earth would anyone, especially survivors of abuse, envy their success? That said, I understand completely that it's a very hard pill to swallow when the person who abused you does well in life. I wonder if the poster actually envied them or was angry and sad about what her ex had gotten by being an N.

I like seeing N's held to account and finally so many are paying the price - Jackson, Cosby, Weinstein, Epstein, etc. Canadian fashion mogul Peter Nygard just got 11 years for his sexual abuse of a long list of people. The man who wanted to live forever is 82 and is likely going to die in prison wearing an orange jumpsuit and having no minions to do his bidding. It makes me happy they will never again wield their power to hurt and then silence others. 

There are lots of intelligent people who have a solid moral compass and have a vision, goals. I much prefer their accomplishments to those of N's who wring people dry to get what they want. Elon Musk is notable for doing this as was Steve Jobs. They may do/have done amazing things but at the expense of so many. They were/are not socially smart IMO, they were/are predatory, some would say sociopathic because they use others. 

So, I don't see that N's do have any good qualities. IMO they are people with dangerous qualities who should never be in positions of power - from being a parent with power over children to being president of the USA with power over a whole country. This is not feeling morally superior, it's about having a moral compass that tells me N's are people to look out.   

So, IMO we need to see them for who and what they really are - dangerous.

[LeonLaviu]

Hello Kizzie

I agree, with a lot of the things you've said.

I have envied narcissist myself tho. And they seem very smart to me, but in a more classic definition of intelligence, like Chart said in his comment. More of an intellectual (book smart, academic) type of intelligence, and a cunning scammy type of "empathy" and people leading intelligence

Just yesterday I heard a quote from Jodie Foster, I believe. I don't remember it exactly but it went along the lines of not being naive and realizing that a lot of evil people succeed and they don't get the "divine punishment" they deserve sort of speak. But it ended with "I've seen a lot of evil people succeed, but never at peace"

I also agree that there's a lot of sociopaths on power, it seems that we live in a sociopathic society wich kinda awards this types of behavior.

I've been thinking how we should make people in politics and big CEOs take psychopathic tests to prevent them from possitions of power that ultimately end up harming us and the world. Cause the narcissist I've met, they are harmful, but I don't see them as really dangerous. But then I think the difference is that they don't have the power and the reach to be really dangerous as they could

It seems to me that this work we are all doing individually, but also sharing collectively in this forum is more important than we as individual perceive. If we at some point have a critical mass of people we could hopefuly even change society itself

[Chart]

Leon, if you can check out Richard Dawkins and his book "The Selfish Gene". In later chapters he goes into the genetic "types" and the corresponding advantages and disadvantages of altruistic versus egotistic behavior patterns. He looks at this both from an individual as well as group perspective. What's also fascinating is observations of animal groups of these traits and the fact that individuals are perfectly capable of changing throughout their life.

I agree that talking about this and really deeply understanding it can have a huge positive impact on our own social and ethical evolution. After all... what do we all really want? For the most part just to be relatively happy. But getting there with our neighbors is turning out to be pretty complicated.

[NarcKiddo]

I think this is a really interesting topic.

I am pretty sure my entire FOO (parents and sibling) are all narcs. Mother definitely is. I always thought father was just an enabler when I first twigged about narcs, but my therapist has pointed out he displays very narcissistic tendencies. I am pretty sure sister is, too.

Father is highly intelligent, academically. He did very well in his career although I do not think he quite reached the pinnacle he desired. I think he is quite good at reading the emotions of others but he appears to have none of his own.

Mother is highly intelligent, academically. I have a feeling she may be more so than father but she has never really discussed grades with us so I am not sure. She is very quick to see an opportunity to advance her own aims. She is ruled by her emotions and not good at taking all data into account rationally before making a decision.

Sister is not all that intelligent. This has been a fairly recent realisation for me. Academically she is sound but not outstanding. FOO is determined that we all must be highly intelligent so we have always been told we are. I have always supposed sis must be as intelligent as I am. This may sound boastful but I don't mean it to. Just trying to paint an accurate picture. Academically I am above average and would (ironically) have got even better grades if my education was not so focussed on achieving good grades. My IQ is very high - can't remember the score but MENSA level. Sister I think has terrible trouble wanting to live up to being this marvellous intelligent multi-talented person that she supposedly is. She is not ruled by her emotions in the same way as mother but woe betide if you * her ego or cross her. I think she may be actually more dangerous than mother because she can be like a rhino charging. Mother is scared of her.

I'm sure the intelligence of narcs varies just as the intelligence of the general population varies, but the narcs do seem very able to use whatever skills they possess to their own advantage (as they see it).

[Kizzie]

I've been thinking how we should make people in politics and big CEOs take psychopathic tests to prevent them from possitions of power that ultimately end up harming us and the world. Cause the narcissist I've met, they are harmful, but I don't see them as really dangerous. But then I think the difference is that they don't have the power and the reach to be really dangerous as they could

As attractive as this is and I would love to see this happen, I doubt anyone in business would want their CEO's to take a test because it means they would not be hiring the most "talented" at making money. And when I say talented I mean predatory; big money at all costs. And as I think we can see in the case of Trump, those who support him do so because he will do things others would never do and that brings power and profit to them much like certain CEOs. It isn't his politics they seem to be after, it's his character or lack thereof and willingness to do things that are of benefit to certain people or groups. That is dangerous.

When I say they are dangerous it's because of how they treat others getting what they want. Trump is a poster boy for this kind of blatant "don't care about anyone else except as it helps me get what I want" but there are so many others in power doing the same thing. Look at Putin and look how he treats his own citizens and messes with world, or Kim Jong Un in North Korea - his people are starving while it is clear he dines quite well. There's a good web site here that tracks dictators around the world - https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/dictatorship-countries. It's frightening to me to be honest.

All that said, it isn't just N's in politics in so many countries who are dangerous, it comes right down to parents all over the world who harm their children via N abuse. They are dangerous because of what they do to us. There are many accounts here at OOTS speak to this, to how badly members were abused by N's who had no empathy and indulged their rage/anger/selfishness by going after their children, sacrificing their mental and sometimes physical health.

So I have to disagree about N's not being dangerous - given any kind of power they are dangerous to others and besides parents this includes: coaches (e.g., Larry Nasar), religious (cult) leaders, employers, and on and on.

Success = being loved and accepted.   That´s a trap. And you should separate both in order to really be succesful career wise.the people that really changed the world, had an oppresive amount of resistance and opposition from the regular people, but they didn't care, they had a vision, they had a higher goal than being socialy approved.

I disagree with this as you seem to be saying either you can be loved and accepted or you can be successful.  There are lots of "successful" people who have a moral compass and seek to be decent human beings. For them it's not about being loved and accepted per se, it's about living according to humanistic values which is about living according to positive, life affirming values that include others you share this earth with. That's the world I want to live in and if we can shed the N's somehow that would be my life's dream, my vision as it were. One of the main reasons for my starting this forum was to raise awareness about perpetrators, convey the amount/type of harm they inflict on others and use our lived experience to show people there is a better way.

[JamesG3]

Narcicists push hard upwards, usually using shock and awe tactics or criticising other people into the rungs of a ladder. But it never lasts, they go up, they over reach, then they fail, and fail LARGE. At some point they have to prove their value with actual ability, and they rarely have anything to give beyond manipulation, exploitation and lies. Doesn't stop em trying.

Grab your popcorn, put a log on the fire, and wait.

[TheBigBlue]

I've really appreciated reading through this thread. The different views here gave me a lot to think about, and I'd love to add another perspective; not to dispute anything said, but to broaden the picture a bit.

For me, the idea that narcissists are inherently more intelligent doesn't completely hold. I don't think intelligence and narcissism correlate directly. Rather, some narcissistic individuals can look competent or successful because they channel a lot of energy into self-advancement, impression management, and power positioning. So just like in the general population, some are brilliant, some average, some struggle; but what can make them stand out is the focus with which they pursue admiration and status.

I also resonated with the discussion about success and danger. Narcissism alone (grandiosity/admiration-seeking) isn't always what produces societal power. Research often points to what's sometimes called the dark triad:

• narcissism: fragile self-esteem, need for admiration, self-importance, low emotional empathy
• Machiavellianism: strategic manipulation, charm used instrumentally
• psychopathy: very low empathy + high disregard for others' safety/needs/harm

It's often this combination - especially in systems that reward dominance and charisma over empathy - that allows certain personalities to rise in leadership or public life. And I do agree with Kizzie's point: when narcissistic traits meet entitlement, manipulation, and lack of accountability, the behavior can become predatory and genuinely dangerous, especially in positions of power or authority.

Something that helped me personally was learning a bit about the neurobiology of narcissism. Imaging studies in NPD have found differences in the brains such as:
• reduced gray-matter volume in the anterior insula (emotional attunement & empathy)
• altered prefrontal–amygdala response to shame/criticism
• ego threat triggers fight/flight, not reflection or insight

This explains why "calling out" narcissistic behavior rarely leads to change; their nervous system reads it as danger, not information. Knowing this shifted my expectations and helped me set boundaries with less hope for accountability that may never come, and more focus on protecting my own nervous system.

What I'm taking away from this thread:
• Narcissists aren't necessarily more intelligent - just differently focused.
• They may thrive in cultures that reward dominance over empathy.
• Their success can look shiny, but is often fragile or built on exploitation.

Survivors often develop another kind of intelligence: reflective, slow-growing, earned through pain. There's strength in that. A different kind of success. One with depth and soul.

Thank you all for the thoughtful discussion, it feels good to explore this together rather than alone. 💛

[Chart]

I'm very happy this thread is staying active and they're new responses and perspectives. I appreciated LeonLaviu's (brave, imo) opinion regarding "narcissists".

Imo, this is an important topic which only gets bigger as time and social/political systems deteriorate worldwide.

If we don't start FULLY understanding these individuals in power causing so much destruction, I believe we're doomed. And I seriously ask myself these questions regarding why toxic leaders continue to appeal to the majority.

Here're some thoughts I've had:
- Narcissism is a spectrum, not an all or nothing affair.
- Healthy "good" narcissism exists and is necessary, particularly during certain phases of development, but also serves healthy individuals in determining their self worth.
- Narcissism can only exist in a relationship. That's to say, toxic narcissist behavior is "permitted" by another person. This is not blame, but important to realize that a narcissist will be unsuccessful if the individual or group refute their assertions.

I like this concept as it gives me agency. Recently I've found a great deal of power and liberation in realizing just to what extent I enabled narcissists in my past. I've taken that experience and learned from it. I now feel greatly empowered when I engage with others on political and social subjects.

Just some of my thoughts. Gotta go make soup for my kids. I plan on doing it very un-narcissistically...

[Ran]

I think my aunt is narcissitic. She's my dad's and uncle's sibling. Actually all three of them are like that. I would say they look smart, but it's only like that in their appearance. They lack emotional intelligence. They are very self centered people and don't care about others, if it's not somehow useful to them. I've cut all contact with my aunt.

[TheBigBlue]

... I seriously ask myself these questions regarding why toxic leaders continue to appeal to the majority. ...

I've wondered the same - a lot. When we look historically, there's almost a playbook that repeats itself in different eras and cultures. It seems to work especially well when people are afraid or struggling:

• Identify an out-group, minority or scapegoat to channel frustration toward.
• Offer simple answers to complex problems ("I alone can fix it", "MAGA" ...).
• Stoke fear, insecurity, and urgency - because fear makes people want strong protectors.
• Undermine institutions that enforce accountability (journalism, courts, science ...).
• Create loyalty by promising safety, prosperity, belonging, identity.
• Frame nuance, doubt, or dissent as threat rather than discussion.

When someone charismatic taps into collective fear, anger, or economic insecurity, the nervous system often prioritizes certainty over truth, strength over empathy, protection over reflection. It's primal - survival-brain stuff.

Social media, polarization, economic stress, and declining trust in institutions can amplify this effect. In that climate, people may cling to leaders who project confidence and dominance, even when those traits are harmful or predatory.

So when you wrote about narcissists in power, that's where I felt the overlap. Not all narcissists rise to leadership, but when narcissistic traits intersect with opportunism, fear-based politics, and systems without accountability, the danger becomes collective, not just relational.

Just some of my thoughts. Off to make tea - also un-narcissistically 😄 (no followers required).