Continuation of Repairing the Harm Done to US: Acknowledgment, Apology and Amen

[Lakelynn]

I missed this whole ADVOCACY section when I returned to the forum. Since the original topic was last active in June 2023, it seemed best to bring it up to date with something current.

Starting off, whenever I see the word Advocacy, I am instantly drawn to the topic. Many members, including myself are in the midst of soul searing emotional work at this time March 2023.

My thoughts this morning are exploring expectations. Because acknowledgment & apology encompass such a large area, I'll focus on acknowledgment only.
Any takers?

[NarcKiddo]

Even acknowledgement is such a huge area, potentially, in terms of from whom the acknowledgement comes.

My main perp, my mother, acknowledges significant parts of her treatment of us children but would absolutely not accept it as abusive. She was our mother and did everything out of love and care (I wish there was a vomit emoji on here). Even recently she brought up an incident from my childhood when she forcibly held my finger into a gas flame for a count of three "to teach me to stop going near it". She claimed to think she had done it to my sister. I do not know whether she was fishing for a reaction from me, or whether she now believes my sister was the victim of that particular act. I have noticed for a long time that my sister and I are basically interchangeable. I did not react or correct her memory but waited to hear what she said. She simply said that these days she would be reported to social services for doing such a thing and I said "indeed you would". She said that a child has to learn and changed the subject.

Acknowledgement alone from the perp is at best useless and at worse damaging. Essentially she said "yes, I did that, and whoever I did it to deserved that treatment." Many of us have spent years believing we did, indeed, deserve it or invite it or both.

However, one of the most helpful and healing pieces of acknowledgement came from my therapist. Many of us, especially if the perp is a parent, can struggle to describe our treatment as abusive, particularly if the abuse is not outright depravity of the kind you read about in the paper or see in the movies. It was a few months into my relationship with my T, so she knew many of the facts by then. I was struggling with my feelings around my mother and whether my fear and loathing is justified or just me reacting sensitively to something which others could happily deal with. I had emailed my T on the subject and explained I was having trouble working out whether my mother's treatment of me was even abusive. I did not ask my T for an answer to that particular point, nor did I expect one. Most of her reply was as I expected - a discussion of my feelings around the matter and how important it is for me to work through my feelings, understand I am now an adult with agency etc. And then, at the end, she stated, in black and white, that from my descriptions of my mother's treatment of me she could absolutely confirm that it was objectively abusive.

The relief and validation in that short statement from my T was so profound it made me cry.

[Lakelynn]

(I wish there was a vomit emoji

NarcKiddo, 

This is an exceptionally good point. When it comes from others, it can pack even more of a punch. I'm glad your T gave that to you and more importantly, you received it.

Yes, it's quite a corner to find yourself in when the perpetrator delivers a "s*it sandwich. I admire your ability to restrain yourself. That shows a part of you that I doubt I could ever achieve. It's curious to me that she would allow a sliver of reality in, yet block all the rest.

I attempted twice to confront my brother about incest, years apart. The first response was saying HE was our mother's victim and the second is that he has been messed up for years. I never got anything from it.

My conclusion about being validated by someone who has hurt us profoundly is: never going to happen. But like  you, I let another's validation fill that space.

[Kizzie]

My NM and NF and for that matter my NB did not see their behaviour as abusive and turned it around on me whenever I spoke up - I was too sensitive, overly emotional, selfish, self-centred,     My family was mostly covert although there were a few instances when it was very clear they were abusive. It took me until my mid-50's to understand I had suffered covert N abuse but by then I knew it was useless to confront any of them because of the shielding narcissism gives people from being self-reflective.

Anyway,  I did realize I had been abused at some point later in life but didn't really feel I needed their validation anymore and was fairly certain I would get nowhere if I confronted them because of that shielding I mentioned.  I knew it was a waste of breath (although I would have given my right arm to hear them say they had been abusive), and I had gone NC and LC so I wasn't exposed to their behaviours as much.

One thing that really helped is that more and more validation is coming  from professionals and peers. When I started OOTS it was to find a few people to talk to.  Today we have almost 12,000 survivors from 81 countries so I no longer feel alone nor do I question whether or not I was abused. When I Googled CPTSD back then in 2014 there wasn't much save Pete Walker's book.  Now Google and you get pages and pages.  And I'm working on a couple of projects with clinicians who totally get it and want to educate their peers, all very validating.   

[Little2Nothing]

I tried to speak to my M about how we were raised. She flew into a rage and began berating me. She said she was a, "righteous woman" and did nothing wrong.

Even with all I endured I had a hard time stating she was abusive. I felt that somehow I deserved what happened because i was an inherently bad person. My T has assured me over and over again that I had been abused. When someone acknowledged what I had been through it is as if a light went on and I had permission to feel the truth.

For a while, after I had been diagnosed with PTSD by a Psychiatrist, when people needed to know the diagnosis they automatically assumed I had been in the military. Their body language and expression betrayed their skepticism about PTSD since I had never served. Thankfully that has changed a lot in recent years and unfortunately in the states CPTSD is not a recognized diagnosis, though I believe that is changing as well.

[Papa Coco]

Gads. I'm sorry to hear what your M said to you. But that's what narcissism looks like.

I learned through reading books like "The Sociopath Next Door" by Dr. Martha Stout, and "In Sheep's Clothing" by George Simon, that narcissists will never apologize for, nor even recognize, anything they've done to hurt others.

I can say that in my own life, I held a longtime hope that I would one day receive an apology from my parents, my evil sister and from the kids I went to Catholic School with. That waiting for an apology was driving 50 years of nightmares that I had to return to being a child under their abuse. That waiting for an apology is what was keeping me feeling insane.

I just kept believing they could be reasoned with.

When I finally learned that they have no mental capacity of any kind to recognize the abuse they do to others, that's when I stopped waiting for an apology, and that's when my recurring nightmares suddenly ended. My healing journey began. Not a day sooner.

I had to disconnect completely from their delusion that they are "righteous" to hurt others with the untethered freedom that they feel to do so.

I think of them in the way I think of alligators. I don't have to hate alligators to stay safe. All I have to do is not swim in the swamps that they swim in. I can be separated from them without hating them. And so that's why I never bothered to discuss my leaving the family. I hated them for a while, but these days, I'm just grateful that I don't swim in their pond anymore. I don't really hate them anymore. Like alligators, I just keep away from them. I just stopped swimming in their pond. I turned and walked away. No point in telling them why. They have no ability to understand the reason why. It just drives me insane to try to explain to them that their abuse was uncalled for.

[Lakelynn]

When I finally learned that they have no mental capacity of any kind to recognize the abuse they do to others, that's when I stopped waiting for an apology, and that's when my recurring nightmares suddenly ended. My healing journey began. Not a day sooner.

Papa Coco, do you mind it I pounce on your word "CAPACITY?" I feel that's the key to everything. And once I can accept NO capacity exists, then I can move on, with confidence that there is no hidden reality I'm missing.

when people needed to know the diagnosis they automatically assumed I had been in the military.

Little2Nothing, I am so sad to read this. That's the worst possible response from ignorant people. I'm reassured that you now know your truth and gave yourself permission to feel it.

One thing that really helped is that more and more validation is coming  from professionals and peers. When I started OOTS it was to find a few people to talk to.  Today we have almost 12,000 survivors from 81 countries so I no longer feel alone nor do I question whether or not I was abused.

Hallelujah! Even one voice can make a difference. And now, look! I love the way your need grew a forum and helped countless people all over the world. It's made the difference between enduring and enjoying life for me.

[Little2Nothing]

I wanted to share this because it was so out of character for my stepfather. Several years before he died, my stepdad and I were drinking coffee in his kitchen. Out of the blue he looked at me and told me how sorry he was for all the things he had done. I was stunned. I listened quietly as he spoke. It wasn't an "if I hurt you" apology, he placed all the blame on himself and told me he regretted what he had done. 

I believe he was completely sincere. I saw a side of him I had never seen before. He was contrite and vulnerable. I felt immediate compassion for him and told him that I forgave him. Though that may not have been 100% true, I still struggled with the things that were done. The apology was needed for my own well being, but it also seemed too little too late. Nor did it eradicate the damage that had been done by years of abuse. 

I do believe that everyone has an opportunity to make amends and to have robbed him of peace at that moment would have made me a cruel as he had been in the past. 

[Lakelynn]

Wow, Little2Nothing. What an unusual interaction. That is quite surprising. I think you handled it well, and saying you forgave him, in that moment, may have been "true." It may have been forgiving his refusal to speak honestly about it and shoulder complete responsibility. It doesn't mean that you'll never struggle with it again.

I agree, too little, too late. Your experience gives me a new perspective. Thanks for telling it.

[Chart]

This is what I believe: Once a fundamental boundary is transgressed, ie a child is deprived of their right to security and love, which is the most basic and fundamental law of the universe, the abused individual owes NOTHING to the perpetrator. If I forgive my father and mother, I do so for ME. If I try to understand why my father and mother did the things they each did, I do so for ME. If I choose to continue to engage my parents, or not, it is because I choose freely to do so for my own well-being and the needs in ME. I believe you forfeit any inherent "right to acceptance" when you purposely inflict pain on someone else in order to "comfort" or reduce your own internal pain (conscious or unconsciously). I owe NOTHING to my parents.
And now the kicker, the reverse is true as well: My children owe me nothing. As I myself was abused, so I too did abusive things to my children. I have always tried to acknowledge and admit my wrongful behavior. Two of my children have forgiven me. One has not. I (hope I) understand completely and accept all their choices. It is freekin hard. But I have to talk about it if only in the hope of breaking the cycle. We humans remain locked in a progression of ongoing trauma. My own parents' trauma excuses their abusive behavior? Not really. That they were abused changes very little for me. My amygdala is still all messed up. And now it's my turn: Does MY parents' behavior excuse the screaming I did to my children? I say no. Validation from our perpetrators doesn't magically heal the neural damage. How much is too much? What can we withstand? What are the lines and boundaries of abuse? It is for each of us to determine and decide. Just as it is for each of us to rewire our brains through therapy, meditation, research and learning.
I am who I am today because of the trauma I suffered. It is both the gift and curse. I must make with it what I can. Each of us must. Freekin hard. But the existential buck stops at my brain and body. All I can do is (try to) stop hurting others, acknowledge the hurt I have already inflicted both on others AND myself, and after all attempts to see as honestly and clearly as possible, I must then love myself. I'm not there yet but I feel it coming. I'm not stopping regardless what anyone else (critical-self included) apologizes to me or accuses me of. It is all I can do, work on myself. Others help, sometimes a lot, but the lion's share remains my own.

[Blueberry]

A FOO mbr did apologise to me when we were both young adults, twice in fact, for his role in the family dysfunction towards me and ill-treatment of me. He was the only one in FOO who did. That brought my guard down. Especially since just before I got back in person-to-person contact with the whole of immediate FOO, he said if anybody ever tried to do the same sort of stuff to me again, they'd have to answer to him. That felt safe to me. Such an acknowledgement! Somebody finally on my side.

Some years later he reneged on that at a very critical time. He knew it was critical too, I made it clear that I couldn't stay w/o somebody supporting me. He shrugged. I left, retraumatised by the gaslighting etc. Haven't seen any FOO since. Email contact very limited. Grey rock etc.

Lakelynn, I like the way you express here to L2N: I think you handled it well, and saying you forgave him, in that moment, may have been "true." It may have been forgiving his refusal to speak honestly about it and shoulder complete responsibility. It doesn't mean that you'll never struggle with it again.  For me it means that in that moment (both times) my FOO mbr was sorry, but he didn't remain that way for whatever reasons of his own. I can guess at these reasons now, being a lot further along in my healing and much less sunk in the swamp of my own family dysfunction. Some of my FOO's rules are for instance that you don't deal with your own problems, you don't speak up for yourself, you get somebody else in FOO to do it. If they refuse, too bad for you, you've just got to put up with it.

So acknowledgement of some of the harm done, apology for same, but no amen because other FOO mbr not willing to look at whole FOO dysfunction and step out of own role. Maybe not even capable idk. My old trauma T said we can't know if said FOO mbr would be capable because he obviously hadn't seen/felt a reason to do so and obviously still hasn't. The only way I can get out of my own role in FOO - that of Ultimate Scapegoat - is leave. Negotiations etc impossible and unwanted. Go against FOO rule anyway.

Acknowledgement from other places such as on here, from therapists and other patients has helped a lot though.

[Dante]

Chart: This is something I firmly believe as well.  Well said.  Does my parents' messed up past excuse their behavior towards me?  No.  Does my messed up past excuse my behavior towards my kids?  Also, equally, no.  Like you, I have made it my mission to try my hardest, and apologize when I fail and lash out.  I've gotten better as time has gone on and I've understood my own triggers better.  My ultimate goal is for them to know that when I'm the problem, I'm the problem not them.  And when they're the problem, I let them know so they can fix it and grow.  If I'm 100% screwed up, my goal is for my kids to be 50% screwed up.  And then theirs are maybe 25% screwed up.  It's a generational disease, and this is why.  But I want my kids to at least have the tools to do their own healing.  I don't owe my parents anything, nor do my kids owe me anything.  Hopefully, we can heal together.

[Chart]

Thanks Dante! I was actually kinda scared to have brought up the subject of my own screwed-up behavior with my kids. Thank you so much for your understanding. I know that I have not traumatized my kids as I was traumatized, nowhere near I'm sure. But I still did many things that I'm not proud of and now regret. What I try to do is acknowledge and admit when we talk about it. I don't deny having spanked the two older ones as a form of punishment. And I make it clear that I know that I did wrong. I can't undo the past but I am willing to admit and apologize. As mentioned two of the three are okay with me. My eldest however refuses to speak with me anymore and we have zero contact as she has decided to live only with her mother. She faced the hardest stuff between her mother and I's dysfunctional relationship. She also had birthing trauma which she's still too young to fully understand. My hope is one day she will see things differently. But I will always be willing to acknowledge my anger and semi-frequent rages. Admitting helps me too, to understand myself and the repercussions of my own traumatic experience.

[Kizzie]

I can't undo the past but I am willing to admit and apologize.

And that right there is what every child wants to hear. Bravo.

[Dante]

For me, at least, the thing that would have made the biggest difference was knowing I wasn't the problem.  I spent my whole life being told how worthless I was.  Balancing between failing (and embarrassing my NM) and succeeding (and overshadowing my NM).  I learned that I was the one that was too sensitive, too flighty, too whatever was most useful that day. 

The one thing I want my kids to know is that it's not their fault when I'm not in a good place.  I lost my temper a lot more when they were younger (not physically abusive, but I can yell - though I work hard to keep it from becoming a personal attack).  As I've learned more about CPTSD, I now understand my triggers better, but I still have days. When I make a mistake, I own it. I don't let them think it's their fault when I'm messed up.

That would have meant the world to me.