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hello snookiebookie

I also completely relate, and while it's sad why we all do it, I do feel that little bit of relief that this seems a bit of a common behaviour strategy..... though also feel for you that it is happening in your workplace - I can understand how vulnerable that could make you feel

I generally don't talk very loud - either silent mouthing of words or speak in a quiet voice, though occasionally I'll exclaim a word or phrase quite loudly,  or suddenly laugh out loud... I can get very passionate, expressive and demonstrative with facial expressions and gesticulations - I'm a hand talker anyway, but it can get quite emphatic

so far I've only been 'caught' in public on a few occasions (that I know of! ), but that was definitely quite embarrassing....  and I've caught myself in places like my car while sitting at lights and realised that I must look totally mad, though in the car people might think I've been enthusiastically singing along to music 

anyway, I have tried, when I catch myself, to feel into what is the emotion is at a more core level.... for me it always revolves around feeling the denial of my dignity, respect and validation, not having a voice and not feeling worthy ... it's as if I am fighting for all of those things, fighting my own corner for my dignity and trying to stand up for myself - that's what I know I am working through, in place of the many times I was unable to .... as much as I am able, I then try to allow that feeling of being dismissed and demeaned to just exist without judgement and without the commentary, then I try to do positive self-talk about how i'm ok and worthy just as I am, I'm safe, I don't need to prove anything to anyone else ... I breathe into it and do some other little techniques to try and ground and calm myself and unhook from the mental aspects .... I also try to tell myself that 'even if someone does see me looking crazy, so what? what harm has been done?', and the answer is always -'none'  , so then I can sometimes feel some sense of humour in it....   the focus is really on calming and comforting myself, cause what I'm really doing in the 'raving' is defending and fighting for myself, so I work to introduce an attitude about myself that feels safe enough not to need to fight .... of course, it is often not easy.... and I still do the crazy talk, but getting better at antidoting

not sure I've explained that very well, but I really have to call on a range of tools that I've found work for me

['Gaslighting']

hi thetruth

I'm so sorry to read what you've experienced - it sounds truly horrible and traumatic 

I've read the first few posts, and skimmed the rest, so I do want to prelude my response with a recognition that I may be repeating things coz I missed it in the quick read. Apologies if that's the case.

I've had experiences with psychologists and medical people over the years that have been truly horrid, and everything you've describes feels very viscerally familiar to me. There were two terms consistantly running through my head as I was reading your account, and they were 'Gaslighting' and 'Systemic Violence'. Then I saw the following comment from you, and that, to my mind, is the perfect description of what Gaslighting is...

I have just discovered a true description of what happened to me. In a nutshell, it was 'ME V lies, lies, lies, lies, lies, lies'

I realise you may already be familiar with those terms, but I didn't notice them in any posts, so I thought I would mention them just in case. I found them useful in terms of having words and concepts for naming toxic behaviours and cultures, as well as giving me something to further research and find helpful, relevant info.

It seems the UK has a very limiting system re: GPs. Is it correct that you cannot choose who you see? (unless you move location?). I was on a health related forum about a decade ago and I have vague recollections of the UK members having significant struggles with this when their GPs were dismissive of their illness. As an Australian, I was aghast that some of my fellow forum members seemed unable to choose to see another GP. Maybe I have the wrong end of the stick on that one, tho.

Recently I was alerted to something called the Power Threat Meaning Framework, which I think has been developed by the British Psychological Society. I'll add the following links in case they are something you would like to look into (tho heads-up - they are a bit of a dry read/ listen)
https://www.bps.org.uk/news-and-policy/introducing-power-threat-meaning-framework
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrAT7AZqsTU&t=0s&list=LLk7nu_itVEquCtqN1N-H-Rw&index=57

The premise they are working from is echoed in something Bluesailrose said, and the tagline on ... hmmm, sorry forgotten their name, but another members nic, relating to the matter that with CPTSD what we are living with is injury, not illness. What they say in the PTM Framework commentary is something like, the important thing for clinicians, care providers, (anyone) to ask is not- 'What is wrong with you?', but 'What has happened to you?'. This is not simply trauma informed, but a client-centred therapeutic approach which completely validates the lived experience of people as they express and describe it.

Anyway, I couldn't help but wonder if you could call the BPS to see if they can recommend therapists who are aligned with this way of thinking? Here we have something called The Blue Knot Foundation (which is where I found out about the framework). They run survivor workshops and training for allied health/ therapists, and can provide lists of therapists who have done their training (though that is not the same as an endorsement, so I still would engage with care and caution). But, again, I can't help wondering if BPS offer anything similar, or may at least be able to start pointing you in some more safe and helpful directions...??

All that said, I also agree with what Blusailrose said about securing an advocate to accompany you on any further such appointments, if that's something you can access. I haven't done that yet, tho I am slowly learning how to better navigate the system (I think  ), and a lot of it is by a combination of being more informed and feeling when I come away from an interaction feeling supported and good, compared to when I come away feeling off-kilter, confused, misrepresented, etc. I think I'm slowly developing a better radar for those people who hold to similar values of genuine care, respect and empowerment. Sadly, one cannot assume all of those in the 'health care' professions are aligned to the same ground-up (rather than top-down) values, but at least experiencing the bad helps give us an insight into what we don't need, if that makes sense (which reminds me of the snake-bite comment).

warm wishes and take care 

that was a great description

[allowed]

I've no words to give you, only support and empathy. Glad you're here. 

Thank you, Three roses 
the little byline about CPTSD being injury, not illness reminded me of a new framework that has been developed in the UK which has as it's premise (and I am kinda paraphrasing) - it's not 'What is wrong with you?', but 'What has happened to you?'

I realized when I read your post how much I still automatically feel this way whenever I think about not being in contact with my family.  I do immediately stop the thought because I do know they are toxic, will not change and that they damage my health and emotional well-being.  But it pops up so it's a strong message we give ourselves and I understand the inner battle.   

Yes - it is SOOOOO strong. It's incredible, really, just how deep the programming goes.

There is simply no way to interact normally with them though because they are not normal and that's how and why we ended up with CPTSD.  The symptoms we have are the only way we could get it together enough to survive, a normal reaction to an abnormal situation, but life is about more than that and we deserve to let go and move on IMO.     

Yes - it's truly becoming more and more realised in me that there is no genuine happy outcome to look forward to in this story. But I seem to need to work through steps of a process and I think it relates to needing to make decisions from a place of more clear insight and realisation, than from a place that is some combination of triggered and intellectual. Not sure if that makes sense.

What I have been practicing, with the help of my psychologist, is to work out primarily what is good for me, what my values and needs are, communicate without expectation and also know what my boundaries are and stick to them. Having MC via email allows me the space and distance and time I need to manage my PTSD responses and come back to things when I am ready. I have been learning a great deal from this that has been rich and rewarding, eg; learning to embody an understanding that I'm allowed  (gasp!  ) to wait on a reply and respond when I am ready, and even that I am allowed to decide things that others do not like or agree with. Finally understanding that I am allowed to do such (outrageous  ) things is freeing me from layers of guilt and shame that would previously have either stopped me from doing them or haunted me if I had. And that's not to say the guilt and shame are gone (as referenced in 'schism' comment), but by giving myself more time and space I am more able to see those toxic responses more quickly and clearly and getting better at putting them down. There are other things, too, and somehow actually practising them with the people I'm most damaged by is helping me build something solid in myself and helping me be my own best advocate - I'm learning to value myself. Also, as I've mentioned previously, it has been extremely difficult to survive financially without my family's assistance, especially with my health being very poor, so I have felt that I have needed to find a way to be in touch and receive needed support, while also not compromising on my boundaries. It has been tricky and tiring and I often think the vigilance and ongoing management required in this set-up is not sustainable, even if doing so has been an intrinsic part of my survival needs. Basically, I still feel I need to work through the process and arrive at that point organically - that is, if I am to make that final, definitive cut, it is because I finally truly know and accept it is the only healthy way to move forward with my life.

What I'm working on is being able to stand my ground in doing what works for me and not doing what hurts me. I know that doing so is likely to cause a negative response from FOO, but when I communicate from that more grounded, clear space, in my own time, I feel more capable of backing myself. Having my psychologist onside helps enormously too. My 'strength', if it can be called that, is that I am willing to go NC, even though that guarantees my loss of financial buffering. Being more elderly and with increasing age-related health issues, my parents do not want want me to go NC (which is also a source of great pain and angst for me, as I would dearly love to be able to have more contact with them before they die, and am aware that them dying while we are estranged will also bring it's own set of emotional burdens). But my father, in particular, is always trying to push boundaries, take control and ownership (my mother has said and done really cruel and damaging things, but she is less manipulative). I am learning to interact on my terms and not allow them to force their way, and even though it is stressful at times, there is also something empowering in it for me - I'm starting to see their behaviours more clearly for what they are and not be drawn in. This is only possible with the email only contact, as I know trying to speak directly and/or be in their company would be dangerously messy for me.

Sorry if this is over-long. I was not expecting to write so much, but once I started I seemed to need to keep trying to articulate something. I'm also feeling a bit more calm and clear-headed today, so that is some relief.

Again, I appreciate the responses. 

Kizzie and Libby - thank you both very much for your replies 

Within days of my posting this I had a massive, unexpected upheaval in my living and major friendship situation. I was in emergency accommodation and dealing with support services, and have since undertaken an interstate relocation. I'm still in temporary accommodation, but have just been approved, with high priority, for subsidised housing, so I am really REALLY hoping that I will now have a chance to actually settle somewhere and reap some benefits of having stable living, my own space, and growing connection to local community. A chance at new beginnings.

I'm only now coming back to this site after so many months, having been reminded of it since I am currently managing both general Christmas alienation/ grief/ etc, as well as a very recent trigger event in the form of an ostensibly generous email from my father, which is actually incredibly controlling and manipulative. It is silly, but it sort of came as a shock (I should know better by now!) as communications (email only) had been going well for some time and I had sent them considered gifts for birthdays. I have been relying on their financial assistance throughout this housing upheaval and am extremely grateful for it. The email, though, feels like a form of brinkmanship, and while initially very panicked, I am now wondering whether it is actually a good thing and my standing firm - regardless of their response - will give me greater freedom. If I lose their support, so be it, but I will not be bought or coerced.

ANYWAY, the intense panic and anxious sickness and sense of being cornered and all of those fight/flight responses combined with the already difficult emotions about 'family' that Christmas rubs in (I have been in strong EF state .... just read what EF stood for) led me to really see something more clearly than I have managed to before - being involved with my family truly is retraumatising. I do not trust any of them. I feel sacrificed and betrayed by all of them. In the midst of that really triggered space I am in a schism of desperately wanting to protect myself by having nothing to do with them, while feeling faulty and pathetic and shameful for not being able to get it together and interact with them normally - for being so over-sensitive and crazy.

"The trauma is not "post" really but is still ongoing and accumulating. You have ghosts to be sure, but you also have the real thing and that can be tough to deal with."

That is so well put, and funny that it seems more clear to me as I read it today then when I did so briefly just before the upheaval a few months ago. To look at it as 'accumulating' really gives me pause. Its meaningful and comforting to have others say things that make so much sense to my experience - who have clearly inhabited very similar spaces and are able to describe the mechanics in ways that validate and/or enlighten. Thank you.

I was just about to write more, but it is late at night and I need to stop looking at a screen and over-working my frontal lobes . Plus probably better to write further in more relevant sections.

I am still not settled yet, but I hope to come back and read a bit more, post a bit more. But I wanted to at least make an acknowledgment of your replies, which I appreciated   

https://glynissherwood.com/category/scapegoating-articles/

I hope something here is useful

Thank you very much, radical. There definitely looks to be a number of good, relevant posts here.

I feel guilty about considering NC when my family aren't doing anything that bad right now. I mean, they are so far away from me (physically), it should be easy to just manage my relationship with them like this at this distance? I can't help but think that until I cut off from them completely, their influence is always going to be in my life somehow. I have such a great desire to just walk way from it all so that I can start living the life that I want - but I question if I am just running away again?

Does anyone relate?

I SO relate to this.

I'm really glad other people have responded so well to this.

Also, wishing you and your partner well through all the challenging stuff you are both navigating.

I legally dropped my family name when I was 24 (I'm 43 now). I was in early stages of what I later realised was a trauma induced mental breakdown, as well as early stages of my first time going NC from my FOO (in second time going NC/MC now, since 2015). I kept my given names, as I think they are beautiful names and couldn't imagine coming up with a whole new name to be called by. I saw it as 'keeping the gifts and getting rid of the baggage', which had a certain empowering sense to it and was helpful for me to feeling psychologically cleaner about what I was doing - it seemed a constructive, non-wholly-rejecting way to frame it all. But, of course, there was a great deal of naivety involved in my thinking I could cut the baggage loose through that (I knew the name change itself would 'fix' everything, but I think I did have a sense it was the beginning of a process I might work through in a couple of years .... hmmm).

I'm glad I did it and have absolutely no regrets. It did help me to make a significant, if still small, dent in the enmeshment and help me take a stand to assert my independence and identity separate from them (even if this is still a work in progress :/).

With some recent retraumatising with my controlling and abusive, golden child brother interfering negatively in attempts at contact with my nephew/ his son (who I had been strongly bonded with), I realised how much the scapegoating has been passed down through generations, and how disgusted I am with my parents and whole family. There is a part of me that just wants to spit the poison of them ALL out of my system, which made me contemplate changeing even my given names. I think I'm unlikely to do that as by all my long-term contacts have known me by this name for so long that it would be really awkward to try and change what they call me, plus I can't see anything else feeling right - I', too well settled into this name, now.

Maybe I would change my last name again - something of my choosing - if I ever reached a final decision to go completely NC.

I forgot to outline the request for good reading recommendations related to infantilising. Looking pretty much for the same kind of more detailed and thorough explorations as I mentioned in regards to the other stuff.
cheers

hi

I'm wanting to read some more in-depth information about scapegoating by FOO - all the ways it can play out and the effects on the scapegoat (that'd be me). I want more than just overview articles which briefly describe it. I'm hoping to find something that really delves into it, particularly from the perspective of the scapegoated person. I want to read someone's experience and know they are dealing with the same emotional landscape I am, and to read about how they are navigating it.

Also, I'm keen to find some similarly personal, lived experience descriptions of the costs and benefits of choosing to go MC and NC. I am currently MC with both my (divorced) parents and younger sister, and NC with my younger brother (who is also NC with my F). I struggle so much with this no-man's-land of relationship and often wonder whether I should just go NC with them all and be done with it so I can just grieve who they can't be for me (ie; non-toxic, supportive family) to maybe (??) make it easier to achieve some form of 'moving on' with my (pretty compromised) life. I have debilitating chronic health issues, too, and my parents still both provide some financial support, which is a massive thing that keeps me connected, as I am too sick to work, and even the times I did I was only ever able to maintain part-time and casual hours.

For both of these areas I'd love to read comprehensive stories and outlines about the dynamics involved and how others have worked with them. If anyone can recommend any books or websites that really explore these themes in a through sort of manner, I'd really appreciate it.

cheers
sj

Hello to the members of this forum

I've now had 3 separate therapists say that they think I have CPTSD. I have only ever otherwise been dx with depression and anxiety, though I have a lot of stuff going on over the years that I never took to any medical or psychotherapeutic practitioners due to deep mistrust on my part. I also 'spiritualised' a lot of my experiences, which I would now describe, to some though not total degree, as attempts to normalise those experiences and give myself some sense of power and control over quite intense and overwhelming/out-there experiences (nb; I also don't completely dismiss this aspect either, as there is still some wisdom and sense and growth I've found in it all). I've also pretty much experienced the Failure to Thrive, thing, having never been able to maintain full-time study or employment for more than about a year at max since I left high school - I am now in my 40s (also living with chronic, debilitiating health issues since age 30). I have a mid-to high range ACE Score.

Anyway, the more I have come to look at CPTSD, in recent years, the more I am realising it covers all of what I have and continue to live with, so I have recently pretty much started to focus more on researching and understanding all the things related to both what causes this and how to try and recover from it.

I can't believe I have spent since age 16 (major dramatic event, tho abuse exposure started when I was in utero) actively working to try and 'heal' myself, yet always seemed to get dragged back down to Hades, no matter how hard I tried. Like trying to wrestle with ghosts. My life has been pretty much only this, and I have so much grief and rage about that. And still a lot of shame and  self-blame I am trying to release.

I'll leave my intro at that.

All the best to everyone here and to whoever reads this.

sj