I don't want to stir up a hornets nest, but I live a long way away and feel affected by this, I feel there might be some on this board who are hurting about this. This comment is not political and I don't intend offense to those who voted for Trump. I hope this will be removed quickly if it is likely to be harmful to anyone or to the group.
For all of those who are suffering the effects of sexual assault, sexual abuse and rape as children and/or as adults, I feel for you if you are reeling, and feel the election result has felt like a huge a slap in the face from fellow citizens who don't understand and who are in denial about the seriousness of abuse. I know there are other groups in the USA who might feel similarly and this is not to deny the hurt of members of other affected groups.
Obviously there are many reasons for how people choose to vote and many important issues. It's not like abusers haven't been elected to high office before, but this feels worse. All I can say is that sexual abuse is, and always has been, an issue many, many people don't understand and aren't able to believe. Having our experiences and their consequences minimised, denied, and discounted, and being blamed and shamed, accused of lying, provoking or wanting what happened, and finding that the feelings and reputations of those who have hurt us are what matter, and that we don't is not new.
The level of denial about trauma and all forms of abuse and their consequences is huge, and seems intractable sometimes. At least through the election campaign a little light has been shed on this particular form, and with so many people moved to speak out about their experiences for the first time, it might, in retrospect prove to have been a painful step towards breaking through denial and victim-blaming.
Cyber hugs to all that want them.
It was bad all the way around. I have contempt for Hillary standing by her husband's side during not only allegations but proved contact. To me he was preying on those that were young and using his status for sex. That was abuse as well, using his authority on interns. The only reason why Hillary supported and probably enabled him was for her own calculated political gains from the relationship. For many of us the enabler or bystanders are every bit as horrible as the abuser and sometimes more so.
Dee, I don't like Hilary either.
I try not to blame enablers more than abusers, but often feel more angry at them.
This really wasn't party-political. But in this case I feel Trump, with multiple allegations, including someone who had to call off a press conference to talk about sexual abuse from Trump when she was 13 because of death threats, (charges which predate the campaign) and boasting about sexually assaulting women... having Clinton on the other side just made the whole damn thing worse, imo.
Maybe this post should be removed under the circumstances, especially today.
It raises an important subject. I am not defending Trump, I feel both candidates had issues.
Trump in particular is a slap in the face. Thank you for your post, Radical.
I don't even live in America and yet the upset of this election was all we could talk about at my CSA Survivor's Group last night. The total betrayal and complete failure of the public to act in the best interest of the nation was such an intense macrocosm of traumas so many women children have been through.
As women, we get to watch it play out again and again. Some guy gets it in his head that he's entitled to women's bodies, acts on it/brags about his predatory and almost certainly criminal behaviour publicly, and then is rewarded for it instead of run out of town.
It happens again and again but this time it's the highest profile leadership role in the free world. What message can millions of people take from this except that they are not safe? It's sad, angering, nauseating and exhausting.
I live in America, dedicated my life to America, and I don't support Trump. I know I have anger issues at enablers but still, Hillary is getting a pass why we focus on Trump. The one line I loved from Bush is "we will make no distinction from terrorist and those who harbor them." Why can't Hillary get her share?
Personally, I'd like to not bring politics here. I've come to think of this place as a refuge from the world's problems where I can focus on peace and healing. Politics at its most benign is a volatile subject. Just my opinion.
*RESTORED*
My post is not about politics other than mentioning names and the position the individual holds.
The person who lost has not emboldened her supporters to feel free to commit are hate crimes in my country, unlike the victors. It has nothing to do with politics and everything to do with abuse of people, power, and privilege. People are legitimately fearing for their lives because of this election, because of the victors. Evidence of this is easily searchable online. I'll leave it at that.
I am not from the US but I too am angry, depressed and very unsettled by their election, especially so soon on the heels of Brexit in the UK. I agree with Three Roses though, we don't want our discussions to devolve into rancour, so perhaps steer away from disagreements about the candidates (agree to disagree in effect), and onto the wider issue of power and abuse. There is certainly a lot to talk about in this regard and not just this latest example in the US. Let's just make sure to keep the discussion respectful and open; if the US election and Brexit demonstrated anything imo, it is that people need to listen more to one another. ;)
I made a post on this thread and it was deleted by moderators. Apparently it offended someone but they didn't let me know so I could edit it? Only my post was deleted and deemed political, despite the whole discussion being about politics and abuse of power. (irony!)
Pretty sure I was following the terms of use and didn't realize mods can just delete any post because they feel like it.
I pm'd the mods asking for further explanation as to why I alone was censored and received condescending copy-pastes from the dictionary instead.
Life is too short for this (fill-in-the-blank). I am leaving the forum. Good luck in your healing, everyone.
I think this was my fault, and I regret writing the first post. I would have pulled it down myself, when I realised if it hadn't been past the window of time in which I could. I'm a world away from the US. It affected me. In my country people are talking about how they feel. But this isn't the US. It was never my place to tear at much more raw and personal wounds. I understand that families and friendships have been split by this.
Please forgive my insensitivity everyone. Don't leave Movementforthebetter. I'll really miss you if you do. I don't think this was about censorship, but about protecting a community which has many American members.
movementforthebetter - I don't want you to leave either.
Movermentforthebetter,
Your comment about leaving I find upsetting. For this simple reason--your contributions have always been so rich . Always sincere, from the heart, well expressed, and yours is an inspiring example of a struggle to find any clarity hidden in all this weariness.
It's pretty easy to draw back, and not see the upside from the down. But your posts never reflect that, only your honest desire to find, one way or another, a true movement for the better. :hug:
It's true that political conflict like the mess in the USA wouldn't normally merit mention on a forum of this sort. Normally. This wasn't normal--and these abuse-related issues became blatantly public. They bring out some of the rawest emotions from all survivors of the abuses many here know too well (myself included).
In open societies people should feel free to speak up if it affects them, especially when it threatens to cause harm to very private and fragile emotions. In some cases, survivors have the guilt of saying anything heaped on top of their already ravaged sensibilities, so of course they speak out, like a cry of pain.
The public sphere, when it crosses the line, can indeed hurt or dredge up bad memories, and hits like any emotional flashback might; but it hurts worse to stuff it all inside (again). Memories are set in motion in the worst ways. The difference, again--this happened in the public sphere and was broadcast to the world. For many it may be purely political; but in this case it crossed an intensely emotional line. It wasn't just a typical political blame game, not about this or that candidate's public positions. However it came about, it touched off raw emotional fireworks that only now are 'civilized' societies coming to terms with.
There were distinct differences from the UK's media child abuse scandals but they too found their way into the public sphere and it was impossible to avoid the constant news barrage that further stirred the pot. The only thing that made sense was to avoid the news altogether (which is what I did in both instances, as much as possible; albeit avoidance is supposed to be something to recover from? oh great--more guilt).
Most political or other news seems a bit out of place here, but consider this. When news of this sort arises even in common conversation amongst people on the street (another powerful if less sensitive forum), it's considered okay. But it still can innocently trigger emotional stress (I've had to withdraw, get out of the way when I hear certain things discussed in public, especially when this kind of abuse is dismissed in a glib, dismissive manner; even in my own childhood abuse, political-oriented abuse was a factor added to the rest). What happens in commentary here is akin to those sorts of conversations, and people are bound to react accordingly--some speak out, many try to ignore it. still others run away from it (I tend to shy away as I fear making something worse than it already is, especially when in self-protective mode).
So what about when that news is so publicly blatant it's bound to singe those already raw emotions? This obviously affected people, and isn't necessarily even related to the political result. Sometimes the only outlet for grief is to spit it out. I mean this sort of stuff caused real tears of anguish and pain...it's not political to react that way. It just hurts. Then it hurts more to stuff it away--that's like a justification for abuse of all kinds.
-------------------------------------------------
Postscript...I hesitated to post this, but I responded to it anyway. There was a time on this forum when I felt my every word was scrutinized. Once my words were taken out of context entirely, thrown back at me in insulting fashion, and I was devastated. Because here had felt like a rare safe place,..and I'd been invalidated and humiliated. Maybe that's just adding surplus words to an already long post, but now that I've regained a measure of security here, I still feel it's okay to 'be me' and express myself when it seems I can fairly contribute something of merit. If I lose that sense again...well, that's only a fear, I guess. But it feels odd to even have to wonder.
alright, since we are going to continue to talk about this subject:
Your evidence that is "easily researchable online" is highly skewed. Without fanning the flames of disagreement any more than has already been done, each side has their valid complaints, and each side has done a great deal of harm.
my original statement was that i felt our forum was not the appropriate venue for politics; you decided my feelings were invalid and continued to post. if you had responded like that to any member, i would have deleted your post. as moderator, i decided to treat myself just as if i were another member who had simply asked for a change of subject, and had been summarily dismissed. as moderator, i cannot arbitrarily decide to not follow threads; i take seriously what i undertook as a moderator, to make this a safe place for everyone.
as an american i was and am highly triggered by this thread. i cannot turn on the tv, turn on the radio, read a paper open facebook or other social media, or have a discussion without this subject creeping its way in. there are riots in every major city - again, hilary supporters - our cities are burning, our people are bleeding, people are losing friends and breaking ties with family - and it is not the fault of one candidate or the other. people (hilary supporters) are pulling old men out of cars and beating them on the street because of bumper stickers. this is a complex situation that has been brewing for a while here in my country. your views on this tragic crisis are, in my mind, overly simplified as there is a great deal of background information that is not being discussed - or is being actively suppressed - by the media. the media are no longer disinterested, objective reporters of the situation; they are embroiled in it, actively working in it. we americans have also been the victims of the propaganda of self-interested parties. our people have been called "deplorables" by the person who wanted into office, who also has a great deal of blood on her hands and is currently being investigated by more than one governmental agency. because neither party is innocent. and that is at the heart of the conflict for those who live here and have to deal with governmental policy.
as a member of the forum i just wanted a place where we can all come and discuss our fractured childhoods without also having to defend our political views or be victimized and brow-beaten into silence. your original post that i deleted won't restore for some reason, so here:
QuoteMy post is not about politics other than mentioning names and the position the individual holds.
The person who lost has not emboldened her supporters to feel free to commit are hate crimes in my country, unlike the victors. It has nothing to do with politics and everything to do with abuse of people, power, and privilege. People are legitimately fearing for their lives because of this election, because of the victors. Evidence of this is easily searchable online. I'll leave it at that.
since i didnt understand how that wasnt political, i copy/pasted a definition so that we could be on the same page. sorry if you found that condescending.
and now i'll be taking a break for a while. i am triggered beyond handling it and i need a break from the forum.
The US election has been and is a horrible, frightening event that has many of deeply upset and reactive as we can see in this thread. I am not even a US citizen and yet I feel like my world has turned upside down over night. Is what happened there becoming the new normal? It taps into the abuse we all experienced at the hands of those who had power over us and that is terrifying and depressing. So, I do agree that we need to talk about it, but in a way that doesn't land us in the same place as those in the US have ended up - bitter, divided.....
I want to speak on behalf of Three Roses for a moment. She was very concerned about that happening here and took action to prevent that, not because she wanted to shut anyone down per se, but because she wanted to keep this forum safe. There's a big difference between ill intent and caring. It is our role to keep the discussions from devolving into something negative and it is not always a simple matter to discern when a discussion is becoming rancorous and inflammatory, and when it is healthy debate. Based on all that has happened and continues to happen in the US, I too think it best to err on the side of caution.
This is a deeply triggering event because it is so representative of the trauma and abuse we have all experienced. Ths, it is important to talk about, but we do need to take care that the discussion stays respectful and considerate of the fact that it is a very emotional topic.
:hug:
There is no fault here. The US election has been and is a horrible, frightening event that has us all upset and reactive as we can see in this thread. I am not even a US citizen and yet I feel like my world has turned upside down over night. It taps into the abuse we all experienced at the hands of those who had power over us and that is deeply triggering in so many ways. We do need to talk about it, but in a way that doesn't land us in the same place as those in the US have ended up - bitter, divided .....
Three Roses was very concerned about that happening here and took action to prevent that, not because she wanted to shut anyone down per se, but because she wanted to keep this forum safe. There's a big difference between ill intent and caring. It is our role to keep the discussions from devolving into something negative and not always a simple matter to discern when a discussion is becoming rancorous and inflammatory, and when it is healthy debate.
This is a deeply triggering event as we have seen, because it is so representative of the trauma and abuse we have all experienced. As such it is important to talk about, but we do need to take care that the discussion stays respectful and considerate of the fact that it is very emotional for so many of us.
Postscript...I hesitated to post this, but I responded to it anyway. There was a time on this forum when I felt my every word was scrutinized. Once my words were taken out of context entirely, thrown back at me in insulting fashion, and I was devastated. Because here had felt like a rare safe place,..and I'd been invalidated and humiliated. Maybe that's just adding surplus words to an already long post, but now that I've regained a measure of security here, I still feel it's okay to 'be me' and express myself when it seems I can fairly contribute something of merit. If I lose that sense again...well, that's only a fear, I guess. But it feels odd to even have to wonder.
This is important and I want to respond to it because I know where it comes from. Ironically, I'm still reeling from a huge and painful EF resulting from a kind of cult abuse many years ago. You talk about feeling every word is scrutinised because, in the past, your words have been used to hurt you - deliberately* taken out of context and thrown back in your face, and used to humiliate, invalidate and devastate you. (*my interpretation based on my experience).
Wow. Woodsgnome, I needed to hear those words today, so thank you for writing them.
I see how my own experience penetrates my experience of everything going on around me. I was so vulnerable in a totalitarian system in which my sincerity, trust, good intentions, honesty, and integrity was turned into a weapon and used to devastate my sense of reality and trust in myself, trust that was already so fragile due to childhood abuse. No wonder I only really feel any kind of safety when I'm right away from the eyes and ears of other people. No wonder I'm so devastated and my core is so easily destabilised (what's that joke meme - 'the centre cannot hold') by just the presence of others judging and interpreting me according to their own experiences and beliefs.
A whole lot of things triggered me in a situation last week, and then when I was most vulnerable something happened that sent me into orbit. It was so out of proportion to the affect that I was left blaming myself and feeling that it was my fault that I'm irrevocably broken and I'll never be able to re-enter any kind of community and will therefore always be alone. That I just can't and never will be able to cope with and belong among other people, yet the loneliness of being separated has been unbearable.
The context of the flashback was something I was doing to try and heal myself. I became involved in what turned out to be a kind of cult for the same reason. So it is full circle. My experience was an isolated, totalitarian psychotherapy cult, which like all try cults, incorporated every kind of abuse. I was involved in legal battles for ten years because so many patients (all trying to overcome severe trauma, killed themselves as a result of the "psychotherapy".
Funny thing, My neurologist recommended I not enter this treatment because some similarities of the context (place and people, not the treatment itself) in which it would be delivered meant the danger of it massively retriggering my ptsd were too great. He withheld his support, so I buried his referral letter in which recommended I not have it. Today I feel grateful that he cared enough, and had the insight to do that. That he understood what that experience had done to me.
The treatment itself is valuable. I hope I can find a way to have it without losing control because of the context again. The treatment removes my defenses and I need that for it to work.
Woodsgnome, I've been in that place of humiliation, invalidation and psychological devastation, and lost the ability to fully understand why. Your words have been so valuable in reminding me and putting me back into here and now, a lot of years and miles away. Please stay and please keep talking.
Gosh, this thread makes me sad. :( I don't want movementforthebetter to leave or Three Roses to go away. And you didn't do anything wrong, radical.
Quote from: movementforthebetter on November 12, 2016, 05:15:13 AM
I made a post on this thread and it was deleted by moderators. Apparently it offended someone but they didn't let me know so I could edit it? Only my post was deleted and deemed political, despite the whole discussion being about politics and abuse of power. (irony!)
Pretty sure I was following the terms of use and didn't realize mods can just delete any post because they feel like it.
I pm'd the mods asking for further explanation as to why I alone was censored and received condescending copy-pastes from the dictionary instead.
:sadno:
Is this a complete account of what happened? Didn't we just have a painful conversation on OOTS about heavy-handed moderation and poor communication??? I have nothing but positive regard for Three Roses, but I feel this needed to be said.
edit: And for the record, I strongly disliked both of the candidates and supported neither. I've felt nauseated and scared since the election, but I know that I would have felt this way regardless of the outcome. I understand the need to talk about it all, and I also understand the need to not talk about it.
I wanted to leave this be. But I need to say it. I feel it was totally unintentional and I cannot emphasize totally unintentional enough, but I felt my opinion was invalidated and wrong. I hold no one responsible but myself for the way I took it. Each time I said she had issues I (as in me and no ones fault) felt it was dismissed as he was the bigger problem. I didn't complain, but I do feel like I was being cared for by three roses. I have felt like so few people have ever looked out or cared for me I cannot begin to tell you how good that felt. Again, I feel both sides have strong emotional triggers. This triggered in great depth the relationship I had with my mom and how she chose her husband and her own wellbeing over her daughter. This is the mother that burned all of my photos. I don't have a picture of me as a baby, or when I was 6 or when I was in junior high. The memory of me has been burned. Erased from existence. And then to be told I was burned and erased..... Somehow I think three roses saw that.
Radical, mftb, woodsgnome - I have nothing but high regard for you. I truly mean that. We don't choose how EF's will come, they just happen. I love you all and three roses. I want my family together. I hope we can all look at this for what it is. A strong trigger in different ways for all of us. We don't have to agree, just move on. Since I recently found tears I am able to grieve for this. Better than when I would hurt myself. I think that the forum helped me with this too.
I think this isn't together or coherent, but I am okay with it. I am super exhausted, tired of everything, I am okay with that too.
You were coherent :hug: Thanks to everyone for their support and understanding.
I am SO TIRED of Trump and Clinton I could scream. For 2 years we've been inundated with political ads attacking each other - and not just those two, either! I'm just sick of it.
Politics and religion are highly volatile subjects. I literally cringed when I deleted that post, bcuz deleting what people say runs completely against my personality. I realize you all don't know me that well, tho, and I do want to reassure everyone here that I'm not going to be gleefully deleting posts and locking threads. If I run the risk of anything, it is being too lenient, and we've already lost at least one member bcuz I didn't step in when I should have.
I find it ironic that I'm accused of censorship. I suppose it's censorship when your post gets edited/deleted but only moderators doing their jobs when it's someone else's post.
I honestly felt there was disregard for people's feelings and that is why the post was deleted, not because of anyone's political views which I couldn't care less about.
Keep in mind, if those of you who live in countries other than the U.S. are upset, think how we who live here feel. We are bruised and tired!
Thanks for listening.
Thanks, Three Roses.
Without providing details too complex to explain, I'm actually a person without a country and have been for years. It was too hard to steer clear of the USA mess, though, as it leapt the usual bounds and touched on abuses that many here know too well.
Both candidates, their supporters, and the media were out-of-control, often with no visible rationale for their behaviours. But with the abusive memories stirred by these rumbles it's not surprising it jumped into a couple of posts here, where feelings and emotions are volatile by nature. It may have seemed only political, and should have been; but it was also too human. As people in recovery, or trying to be, it's understandable how this forest fire leaped its bounds.
That said, my only reason for wanting to post this was to thank you for being honest about what actions you were involved in. As you've discovered, moderator on a forum touching raw emotions all around isn't exactly a piece of cake, per the old saying.
Thanks again for being you :hug:
Hi guys, just poppong back to say hi and thank you to everyone, especially our hard-working mods, for keeping this difficult conversation going. I so appreciate your kindness and regret that I reacted angrily. Both the election and what happened on this thread triggered a big EF regarding being silenced by my FOO and authority figures, and I will step away for the week to ground myself so I can respond from a less emotionally raw place. I want to acknowledge that I don't think my post is totally clear which may have contributed. My account of what happened is accurate, but I am too raw to read my messages to see what went into resolving it.
On top of this I have a major life change happening and I haven't always been coping as gracefully as I would like, such as the past few days. (lol, who does?)
I hope everyone has a better week. It's been a tough one for me, for sure, but I hope to still see this as a safe space to respond in my way... Though I will reflect on whether I can communicate my point better.
Thanks, see you soon.
see you soon! :hug: