First of all, I kindly ask that anyone who posts in my recovery journal only do so with kindness, gentleness, and compassion. Please refrain from giving advice, or minimizing, or explaining away, debating, disagreeing, or negativity and criticism in any form. Thank you. What I need most is words of encouragement, support, and understanding. I will do the same for you.
I started recovering from my CPTSD about 36 years ago. Back then, I had never heard of CPTSD, or narcissism. I was on antidepressants for most of the last 28 years, and have recently come off them. This is a very good thing, because now I can access deeper layers of healing. I've really been going through a grieving process. I believe that deep inner healing is, and will happen, as a result of this. My little girl was abused and neglected, but never allowed to express how she felt about it. Now, I'm giving her that permission. I feel deep compassion for her, for all that she went through, but yet was not allowed to protest, or even have any opinions about it.
Natureluver
I absolutely respect your request for us to be kind and supportive. I'm thankful you posted that out there. You're right. This is YOUR recovery journal. Your little girl deserves to have a place to express the feelings of all she went through.
I hope we are able to provide the care and validation that you hope to get from us.
For now, I'm just sending you a safe, non-intrusive hug, from one invalidated inner child to another. :hug:
Thank you Papa Coco! I deeply appreciate your gentle and compassionate response! I look forward to reading and supporting you all in your recovery too. :hug:
I'm here and reading and caring. That little girl does deserve to be seen and to receive compassion after what happened to her.
I agree with Papa Coco, thanks for stating your needs up front. I think I occasionally slip into advice giving so I will know to be extra cautious and hopefully it will help me remember more broadly to be careful with all journals.
Armee I appreciate you reading my journal and offering support.
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I just need to share this. One of the most evil things my malignant narc mom did, was verbally and psychologically torment me and provoke me, and cause me to get extremely angry and upset, to where I was beside myself, and then she would mock me, and severely punish me for being so angry and upset. She did this when I was only 3 or 4 years old. This did not happen to my siblings. She managed to convince them that I was the crazy one, because I was losing my temper, or being extremely upset. All this caused me to have a lot of issues even as a small child, so that then the teachers and other kids in school marginalized and rejected me too. All though my childhood, she would throw in my face how I had a horrible temper, and there was something very defective about me because I was upset and unhappy. Since I was the only one this was happening to, I thought there was something terribly wrong with me. I now know that is toxic shame. I became her emotional toilet even as a baby and toddler - which is so evil.
I now have learned, by learning about narcissism, that she was projecting her dark shadow side onto me, so that she did not have to face it. I've done a lot of angering and grief work about this. I've also gone no contact with her. Doing the grief work has helped a lot - I no longer carry around the inner anguish that I use to. I'm getting over the toxic shame, and realizing she is the sick and crazy one, not me.
Natureluvr
Oooh your m's behavior is definitely a trigger for me too. I'm sorry it happened to you, and that she started it right from the beginning of your life.
I'm impressed by your later statements of how you're recognizing it as the trauma from a N, and not because you, in any way, deserved it. It looks to me as if you're doing everything right: Anger and grief work, going No Contact. Everything. Good for you!!!!
My n sister would get me so frustrated that I looked crazy, then she'd laugh at me and call me crazy, and everyone in the world believed her. It crushed my self-image for most of my childhood AND adult life. So, I really resonate with your experience. To me it's insidious behavior and some of the worst kind of bullying ever invented...using a good person's emotions against them. Disgusting. Or to use your word, Evil!
I'm very glad you're getting past it. :cheer:
"My n sister would get me so frustrated that I looked crazy, then she'd laugh at me and call me crazy, and everyone in the world believed her. It crushed my self-image for most of my childhood AND adult life. So, I really resonate with your experience. To me it's insidious behavior and some of the worst kind of bullying ever invented...using a good person's emotions against them. Disgusting. Or to use your word, Evil!"
This seems to be a common behavior of abusive toxic people. Very manipulative. It's nuts how people believe the abuser, and not the victim, which also happened in my case.
Natureluvr,
I feel the frustration with you. I guess there are terms, like "defamation of character" that these toxic bullies have learned well how to use.
My sister had my entire huge catholic family in the palm of her hands. Every time she decided to knock me out of my happiness, she'd turn my entire family against me with lies that I couldn't recover from. This is why I feel so empathetic to what you've gone through also. I feel the pain in your words and I'm 100% on your side. YOU were a victim because YOU are good. Toxic sociopathic narcissists hate it when good people are happy. Their jealousy is one of their top five trademarks. One book I read about them says that they know nobody loves them, and when they see that people like us are loved or lovable, their jealousy enrages them. They live by the rule that If they can't have love, no one can.
I'm sending you a nice, safe, virtual hug, just because I feel like we both know the pain and suffering of having our characters trashed by people who just can't stand to let us be happy.
:bighug:
Thank you Papa Coco. This explains why they were furious at my dating relationship with my husband, and tried to destroy and sabotage our wedding. They may have put a damper on our wedding, but we still got married, and my husband and I have a loving and close relationship to this day.
I'm thankful I'm no contact with them all now. My only regret is not doing it sooner. I'm still working through the grief of not having relationships with my own sibling and mother. It's heartbreaking. I do still pray for them, but not that much, and only brief, general prayers.
Natureluvr,
I like your story of how you and your husband are having a loving and close relationship to this day. I'm glad you shared this last post. I can relate to it. It validates for me that what I went through isn't unusual for people with CPTSD.
My dad, mom and elder sister would never let me date. They would use every trick they could find to make me break up with any girl I dated. They absolutely hated it when I was happy. When I met my wife, Coco, I tried to keep our relationship as low key as I could so my family wouldn't mess it up, but 3 weeks in, I could tell they were starting the rumor mill and working to get me to dump her, so, on the 4th week after our first date, we snuck off to Reno and got married in secret. At first, the family was angry, emotional, blaming me for not letting them come to my wedding. Somehow by taking care of myself I had "betrayed them." (Betrayal is a big word that they use all the time. If you don't give in to their bullying, they say you're "betraying them." They betray us constantly and when we stand up to them, they call us the betrayers. Typical narcissistic behavior--every accusation is actually a confession). When we had our public reception, they gave worthless gifts meant to insult me. They eventually told me the gifts were things she wouldn't want to take in the divorce.
That was 40 years ago this year. And we're still not headed toward divorce. Still very much in love.
Like you, often I wish I could have gone NC sooner. I didn't go NC with them until 2010 when I was 50. My T said "You couldn't have gone NC with them until then. You're too good a person. Walking away from family was not something you were capable of until now." And he was right. I looked back at my life and realized I was too deeply caught under their spell to leave them when I should have. I finally went NC when I had finally matured emotionally enough to handle it. Which was 50. Today I say it like this: "My family finally got so ugly that even I couldn't love them anymore."
I know what you mean about feeling grief of losing communication with your sibling and mother. Estrangement is healthy when it's needed, but that doesn't mean it doesn't hurt. I pray for my siblings also, and like you, I give them the general prayers that they find the peace they couldn't find when I was in their lives. Narcissists pretend to be happy and self-reliant, but they aren't. There's only aggravation and anger and jealousy in their hearts. So I pray they find peace. My feeling is: If they find peace, maybe they'll stop attacking everyone that wanders too close to them in life.
Wow Papa Coco, there are so many similarities between your story and mine about our dating our spouses. I'm so happy you have a good relationship with Coco to this day!
I started dating my husband at age 19. At first, my mom seemed sort of OK about it, but eventually, she said I couldn't date him because he wasn't Catholic (she loved to play the religion card), so we ended up sneaking around to date. I had to lie to her. Then, in our marriage, when I was mad at my husband, occasionally I would confide in sibling #3, she would say "you guys will end up divorced". She was the one who ended up divorced. when I was in the hospital for depression 16 years ago, she asked my husband, while I was in there, if he was going to stay with me or divorce me. He told her, of course he would stay with me. The day before our wedding, sibling #4 came to my apartment, and tried to talk me out of the marriage, saying I was only marrying him to run away or escape or something. They always have to patholigize everything we do.
Just want to share an update of where I am with recovery from CPTSD. I've been in a deep grieving process. Pete Walker talks about this quite a bit in his books "CPTSD From Surviving to Thriving" and "Tao of Fully Feeling". In it, he says that the end of the grieving process is the hardest, that is where we grieve the deepest. I believe this is true because for years, I've been in therapy dealing with tremendous anger and rage at the abuse. I had one therapist tell me how I needed to get beneath the anger, and deal with the hurt and sadness and tears. And, since I've gotten off antidepressants I've been able to do this. In the past several months, I noticed the grief and crying has become more about the neglect and lovelessness I experienced as a very young child and baby. I've been having some deep and intense grief and pain over the desolation and abandonment I experienced as an infant and toddler. This is really painful emotionally. However, I believe that deep inner healing is also occurring, so it's all worth it. As they used to say in the Adult Children meetings, to overcome it, you must walk through it. You can't go around it.
Natureluvr, I read your journal. I feel sad. I wish you warm comfort in your grief.
Quote from: Not Alone on March 03, 2023, 01:56:54 AM
Natureluvr, I read your journal. I feel sad. I wish you warm comfort in your grief.
Thank you. This makes me feel cared for and understood.
Natureluvr,
This last post has its own true beauty in it. You say that getting off the meds is allowing you to process the emotions of abandonment and neglect. That's great. Getting off the meds allows the pain, but the pain allows the healing. What you're going through now is what I've always called a sense of loneliness in a crowded world. You wrote it beautifully, and it tugs at my heartstrings to read it.
I'm so glad you found this forum when you did, so that as you process these feelings of abandonment and neglect and loneliness that we, your friends on the forum, can feel it with you and extend our virtual arms out to you and hopefully begin to help fill the emptiness left by your childhood.
I'm certainly no stranger to these same feelings, which allows myself and many others here on the forum to experience empathy with you. And I truly believe that empathy is the strongest healing power known to mankind. We're stronger together.
I hope you can feel this hug, even if just a little bit. It comes with heartfelt compassion and empathy for you and for all of us in this boat with you.
:bighug:
Papa Coco your post literally made me cry. I felt so touched. I'm sorry it took me so long to respond. I've just been in such an emotional place in the past couple of years, so I need to pace myself.
In the past, whenever I finally got up the nerve to share the truth of my past with people, I was invalidated or discounted, or else lectured at to "forgive and let it go". I wonder if this subject will always be taboo. I sure hope not.
It feels wonderful to have the empathy and understanding, so thank you! :yourock:
Just want to update everyone. Doing this deep dive emotional recovery work is well worth it!
I noticed that I have become much more assertive. The other day, at my church's quilting group, a woman in there gave me a little flak because I opened a window, and I stood up to her without being combative or reactive.
Another thing I noticed is that I'm not getting triggered as easily! WooHoo, this is big for me!!! :cheer: I used to be super easily triggered when my husband got even slightly angry with me, and now I just take it in stride. I can either let it go, or say something to him calmly and casually.
I'm very deeply grateful for all of this.
:cheer: :cheer: :cheer:
Sounds like tons of progress! And thanks for the update. It's good to hear when mbrs are making big steps in recovery.
That's fantastic! Thanks so much for the update. It's really nice to hear. :cheer:
So glad to hear this.
I can feel a sense of joy in your post. Congratulations!
Thank so much everyone for your support! I love how the people here just support each other, and hold space for each other's emotions and experiences.
I had an experience with a new friend, and need to get a little feedback on it.
I'll call her N. Her husband was a baptist pastor, and she is very religious. I got hurt and triggered because my son did not acknowledge my birthday a few days ago. When I shared this with my friend, and that I was hurt by this, I broke down in tears. Her response was to tell me that I had expectations, and that I should let go of these expectations for him to call me on my birthday. Then, she proceeded to give me a long speech on thankfulness, and about how important it is to see all the blessings God has given us, and focus on those, and not focus on the negative things in our lives. Then, the next day, she messaged me a passage from one of her devotionals that also preached about thankfulness. This passage actually said to thank God for our problems. I very much disagree with that notion, of thanking God for our problems. I will never be thankful that my mother severely abused and neglected me. When I told her I disagreed with thanking God for our problems, she gave me a long message with all the Bible passages that talked about how we should be thankful. At that point, I set a boundary. I asked her to stop preaching to me about being thankful. I told her that I felt uncomfortable with the fact that she kept talking to me so much about being thankful, and asked her to please stop preaching to me. I told her that when she preached at me, it set up a one up one down type of friendship, and I wanted an equal friendship with her. Her response was somewhat mixed. She apologized, but there was some defensiveness in there as well. I just said I hoped we could still be friends, and just talk to each other and pray for each other.
I think I got triggered by her preached at me. My mother was an extremely self righteous narcissist, and would lecture at me and preach at me non stop, about everything, in addition to other abuse.
I also think that even I didn't have CPTSD and an abuse history, this type of thing would be toxic. Why do people assume that just because I got hurt by something, that means that I'm not grateful, and they have to try to fix me and change me by telling me to be more grateful?
Has anyone else had similar experience to this? I would love to have some ideas on what you think was going on here. It feels toxic and unhealthy to me.
Hey I'm so sorry that your son forgot or failed to call you on your birthday. Ouch, even if it was unintentional. That's a really important relationship. I hope he does better next year. :grouphug:
I have experienced this but I am not religious so I can't speak to what it is like for people for whom religion brings comfort. From my non-religious perspective it lacks any empathy and validation which is what I think (??) we all need and want when we feel hurt? Add on the triggering too and yes it makes sense to feel hurt or at least unheard and unsupported. Depending on how you feel I think it's OK to tell her ahead of time what kind of support you are looking for when you bring things to her as a friend, it might need a refresher each time.
:bighug:
Quote from: Armee on May 12, 2023, 05:47:23 PM
Hey I'm so sorry that your son forgot or failed to call you on your birthday. Ouch, even if it was unintentional. That's a really important relationship. I hope he does better next year. :grouphug:
I have experienced this but I am not religious so I can't speak to what it is like for people for whom religion brings comfort. From my non-religious perspective it lacks any empathy and validation which is what I think (??) we all need and want when we feel hurt? Add on the triggering too and yes it makes sense to feel hurt or at least unheard and unsupported. Depending on how you feel I think it's OK to tell her ahead of time what kind of support you are looking for when you bring things to her as a friend, it might need a refresher each time.
:bighug:
Thank you for understanding my hurt of my son not calling me.
You are right - her response lacked empathy and validation. Even the Bible, which she strongly believes in, says to grieve with those who grieve, and rejoice with those who rejoice, which to me sounds like empathy.
In my opinion, telling someone who is in pain that they should be thankful is a way of telling them they should not feel the way they feel. To me, that feels like they are telling me that I'm not OK, because my feelings are not OK. So, that to me is a shaming message. That is not acceptable to me.
I'm very glad I was able to stand up to her, and ask her to stop telling me to be thankful, and stop preaching at me. I am disappointed that I cannot be my authentic self with her, but I'm very glad I was able to be assertive with her. That way, I won't have the resentment.
Feeling triggered today. I was a very loving mother, and never abused or neglected my sons. I showered them with attention and affection. They are now 20 and 28. Yet, neither one of them acknowledged my birthday (May 9) or Mother's Day. This is triggering my abandonment issues.
I'm sorry, naturlover. That must feel so crappy. Do you think a gentle reminder about how it feels would help them be kinder in the future, or no? I don't know why boys sometimes fail to understand this stuff....or why emotional labor falls more to the female gender. I see the difference so clearly with my son and daughter.
Armee, thank you for your kind post. Yes, the emotional stuff does seem to fall to females.
I have a positive update! My husband called him about an hour ago, and left a message, and my older son called right back and wished me a happy Mother's Day, we talked for a while, then he apologized for not calling on my birthday. It was because the day before my birthday, he had to fly to Washington DC and back. He left the house at 7 AM, and didn't get back home that night until 12:30 AM. Then, he had to get up at 5 AM and go to work that day. He was extremely exhausted that day. So, I feel much better.
My younger son is 20 and still in college, and last week was final's week, so I understand why he didn't.
I know most of the pain I had from this was old pain from having been severely neglected as a baby and child. It was a reminder of that.
Hi Natureluvr, :heythere:
I'm all caught up with your journal. I am so glad your here but at the same time saddened that you are here because of the neglect and abuse you have endured.
Your very first journal post is awesome. I so admire that you were able to ask/set boundaries for what you need/want and what you clearly do not want. As a matter of fact when I met with my T Friday past I mentioned this to her and how much it affected me. I hope to be able to do the same in my journal - thank you for that.
There are many parts to your story that resonates with me. I'm so saddened by the neglect and abuse your M put you through. Sorry Natureluvr 😞
I wish I knew how to insert a quote but so far I'm only able to cope and paste...
Quote
I noticed that I have become much more assertive. The other day, at my church's quilting group, a woman in there gave me a little flak because I opened a window, and I stood up to her without being combative or reactive.
Once again I appreciate you sharing your growth. Congrats on standing up for yourself and for recognizing it and as you mentioned, without being combative or reactive. Well done!
One of your most recent posts about being preached at shows me that there is hope. I find this situation extremely difficult and triggering as well. I simply avoid it yet - my reactions are not yet under control. I have experienced this numerous times and felt so beaten down that I haven't gone back to church. I get to triggered and dissociate.
Someday, hopefully, I will be able to stand up for myself. Your experience and how you handled it is empowering. You must have felt empowered. Good for you Natureluvr. All the work and healing you have done is showing wonderful results.
I wonder if when these people react this way it may also be because that is how others have reacted to them? Perhaps their feelings/experiences have not been acknowledged? Not sure but that just occurred to me as I read your post. And that is not to excuse how she responded to you. I sense it was dismissive of your feelings, your experience, what you were sharing with her. You felt hurt and abandoned. You showed her your vulnerability and her response denies, invalidate what you were sharing with her. I'm sorry she reacted to you this way. I wished she could have acknowledged you, your feelings, your experience in that moment.
I hear you Natureluvr and stand with you.
Quote from: Moondance on May 15, 2023, 05:03:38 AM
Hi Natureluvr, :heythere:
I'm all caught up with your journal. I am so glad your here but at the same time saddened that you are here because of the neglect and abuse you have endured.
Your very first journal post is awesome. I so admire that you were able to ask/set boundaries for what you need/want and what you clearly do not want. As a matter of fact when I met with my T Friday past I mentioned this to her and how much it affected me. I hope to be able to do the same in my journal - thank you for that.
There are many parts to your story that resonates with me. I'm so saddened by the neglect and abuse your M put you through. Sorry Natureluvr 😞
I wish I knew how to insert a quote but so far I'm only able to cope and paste...
Quote
I noticed that I have become much more assertive. The other day, at my church's quilting group, a woman in there gave me a little flak because I opened a window, and I stood up to her without being combative or reactive.
Once again I appreciate you sharing your growth. Congrats on standing up for yourself and for recognizing it and as you mentioned, without being combative or reactive. Well done!
One of your most recent posts about being preached at shows me that there is hope. I find this situation extremely difficult and triggering as well. I simply avoid it yet - my reactions are not yet under control. I have experienced this numerous times and felt so beaten down that I haven't gone back to church. I get to triggered and dissociate.
Someday, hopefully, I will be able to stand up for myself. Your experience and how you handled it is empowering. You must have felt empowered. Good for you Natureluvr. All the work and healing you have done is showing wonderful results.
I wonder if when these people react this way it may also be because that is how others have reacted to them? Perhaps their feelings/experiences have not been acknowledged? Not sure but that just occurred to me as I read your post. And that is not to excuse how she responded to you. I sense it was dismissive of your feelings, your experience, what you were sharing with her. You felt hurt and abandoned. You showed her your vulnerability and her response denies, invalidate what you were sharing with her. I'm sorry she reacted to you this way. I wished she could have acknowledged you, your feelings, your experience in that moment.
I hear you Natureluvr and stand with you.
Moondance, I appreciate that you took the time to read my journal. Your empathy is very much appreciated as well.
I get triggered by people preaching at me, for sure. ( My narc M constantly preached at me in a very self righteous and condemning way as a teen and young woman when I was a still living with my parents, until age 23. I believe my narc M was transferring her shame and guilt onto me by her constant preaching at me. I was basically a receptacle for the negative feelings for my family of origin) I'm glad my sharing my experience gave you hope! I was able to stand up to my friend more easily because I did so using Facebook messenger. She had been preaching at me about thankfulness for 2 days, on the phone the first day, then through messenger the second day. I suspect this friend may be using her religion to avoid her own feelings, and possibly got triggered when I shared my sadness with her. Yes, I did feel empowered. Yes, her preaching at me felt dismissive and invalidating. Your understanding of this situation and how I felt feels very validating to me right now, and I thank you for that. It means a lot to me! You have blessed me today, moondance.
And you have blessed me in turn!
Thank you Natureluvr :bighug: :bighug:
You're welcome, moondance! :bighug:
I just read this article, posted elsewhere by Kizzie on this site: https://psychcentral.com/blog/recovering-narcissist/2018/10/gaslighting-survivors-of-narcissists-and-narcissistic-abuse
OMG! I can't believe how validating this article is!!! No wonder I have had an extremely difficult time recovering from this CPTSD, up until the past year or two! I have been to many therapists in the past, who were not trauma informed. I have spent many years in 12 step groups, where I was repeatedly shamed and judged. I was told let it go, oh, you haven't forgiven that yet?, they did the best they could with what they had, why do you still have that resentment? , and on and on and on. I've been told (falsely) that my mother did the best she could with what she had. I don't believe that lie for minute. She was sadistic, and enjoyed abusing me. I saw the sick smile on her face while she was humiliating and abusing me.
In short, I've had many people judge me and talk to me in a condescending way because of my difficulties. Now, I keep this things very close to the chest.
At any rate, thank you so much. I saw the link to this article in blueberry's journal, read the article, and am very thankful I happened upon it. Even the experience with my friend recently - exhorting me to be thankful for the good things in my life, and look away from the bad stuff, felt gaslighty and invalidating. Her advice would probably be good for someone who just is going through minor and common life difficulties, but not for a CPTSD survivor.
I feel like my CPTSD sets me apart, and makes it hard for me to relate to people, and for others to relate to me. That makes me sad. I'm glad that this forum is here, it really helps me feel less alone.
I am wanted to get more involved in this forum, and read others' journals, and offer support.
I don't want to just come here and take, and not give support.
I'm feeling uncertain, and anxious, because I'm not sure exactly how to give support just yet. My heart hurts when I read about the struggles others on here are facing. And, I have some brain damage from some prescription drugs I took, so oftentimes I struggle with comprehension issues when I read the journal entries. I'm worried that I'm going to misinterpret what someone says, and say the wrong thing. I also have a poor memory, so I may not remember the journal entries I read from day to day, and remember others' history.
I'm also worried about writing details in my own journal, and getting judged, or else triggering someone else. Being judged and looked down on has happened to me so much from other people in school, and just in life and general. I'm also concerned about getting triggered by reading other's journals myself.
Because I recently got off prescription drugs that numbed my emotions, grief and sadness and hurt is coming up to the surface. Some days, I express it through tears, and this really helps me to feel cleansed, and purge myself of it. Sometimes, I just don't have words to say, all I have is tears. I suspect this is because I was severely neglected as an infant, when I was preverbal.
The crying face emoticon is not working.
Quote from: natureluvr on May 16, 2023, 08:53:50 PM
I am wanted to get more involved in this forum, and read others' journals, and offer support.
I don't want to just come here and take, and not give support.
Today's a public holiday and I just came home from the inpatient place to deal with a few things at home. Checked OOTS, saw your post, want to respond.I hear you. But I also want to say, it is fine to... Oops I read "I am wanted to..." as 'I don't want to'. Brain is a bit mushy. So that alters what I'm going to write a bit.
I would say - don't worry e.g. about remembering others' stories. Sometimes I remember others' stories because it really resonates with me or something.
The main purpose of this forum is your own healing so it's perfectly OK
not to read everybody's Journal. Atm a lot of mbrs are writing journals and a lot are writing very long posts. It hasn't always been that way. There are other posts on this forum you can respond to or even write on which might do others good to read. You can give that way too e.g. by writing on Three Good Things a Day https://cptsd.org/forum/index.php?topic=15030.msg130860#new or Successes/Progress https://cptsd.org/forum/index.php?board=51.0
I understand about being triggered by reading other peoples' Journals. It is in fact a potential problem which I wrote about from here on down in this thread: https://cptsd.org/forum/index.php?topic=15081.msg129292#msg129292
I am responding to your journal rn but generally I won't be reading any OOTS journals while I'm inpatient because we're discouraged from that. Do what feels good for you! It's OK to put just an emoticon in as a response to someone else, it doesn't have to be a bunch of paragraphs :whistling:
There was something else I wanted to add but my brain has zonked out, so that's it. :hug:
Hey Naturluvr,
Once again, you've touched my heart. I resonate with your desires to respond more, and I resonate with your fears of making mistakes that might hurt someone's feelings or trigger someone else's pain. I have days where I'm clearheaded and focused, and then I have days, or weeks at a time, when I'm confused, unable to comprehend what I'm reading, or what I'm writing. It's a CPTSD thing. And I know it well. So, you've touched my heart with your admission that you're struggling with it also.
I understand your fears of misinterpreting someone and making a response that doesn't fit. I have that same fear all the time. In a few cases I've done just that and I've felt terrible for it afterward, but I'm always forgiven, just as I forgive anyone who accidentally misreads one of my posts. On this forum, it's common to find that many of us are afraid of being judged, and afraid of being misunderstood, and afraid of hurting anyone else's feelings or putting them into flashback mode. It's trauma. We are afraid of being judged and blamed for other people's misery because that's how our narcissistic parents and teachers and preachers and siblings and x-spouses bullied us for so long.
Many times, my therapist and I have had to address the heavy weight on my shoulders as I feel so responsible for the happiness of everyone in the world. I've been blamed for other people's misery so many times I sometimes feel like I should shut up and never speak again. For 50 years, my dad did to me. Mom did it to me. Two of my 4 siblings did it to me. But now I can see that they were all narcissists. All selfish. All bullies. I was an easy target because I never wanted to hurt anyone, ever.
What I do when I want to respond, but I can't find words that I feel safe to give, I sometimes just send a hug emoji. I do that because when forum members do that for me, it feels good. I know they don't have words for me, but they took the time to just send a hug, and that makes me feel less alone.
One of my lifelong heroes has been pianist and comedian, Victor Borga. As a very young boy I wanted to play piano, and I wanted to be a comedian. I wasn't allowed to be either, but he was both. So, I've been a fan of his for my whole life. He had a way of making the audience feel like he really liked us. He used to say, "The shortest distance between two people is a smile." We can't see each other's smiles on this forum, but we can send smile emojis. There's power in that. There's connection in that. And loving connection is the best feeling in the world for me. I feel the smile behind the emojis. So, any time you want to express that you are touched by someone's post, but you don't know what to say, a hug emoji is a way to connect.
:hug:
:bighug: to you if okay, if not please disregard.
I feel the same - I worry and doubt my responses as well. Heck, I am even doubting
Posting in my journal.
I simply wanted to acknowledge you in that you are very compassionate and supportive and that for me that shines thru in your responses.
Blueberry, thank you very much for your suggestions, and your reassurance. It really helps. N mom constantly bombarded me with accusations of being selfish, and now I know it was a total projection on her part. (She was the selfish one). I guess I sometimes worry about being selfish, or coming across that way.
Every time I read all your responses to my posts, I break down in tears. But, I think they are good tears. Not that there are bad tears, mind you. I'm so not used to being able to express my authentic self, and have other people respond in such a positive and supportive fashion. I"m so used to having to hide this part of myself to people out there in the world. (I had tried revealing this side to people in the past, and almost always gotten judged and rejected for it).
Papa Coco, thank you for saying that you resonate with what I said. It makes me feel less alone, it truly does. Also, thanks for saying that it is part of trauma to be afraid of being judged. When I was in 12 step program, I was berated for this, and told I was being codependent. I very much hear you on being blamed for other people's unhappiness. I was the scapegoat to an extremely unhappy malignant narc mother. Your support to me on this forum has been invaluable, and I'm deeply grateful for it.
Moondance, thank you very much for letting me know you see me as compassionate and supportive. Your hugs are more than welcome! Thank you.
My compassion is rooted in the fact that I know how much it hurts to go through what we went through. Hugs back, moondance. :hug:
:hug:
natureluvr, i've been to a lot of 12-step meetings, had a husband who was an ardent member, and i know all those platitudes you're talking about. i finally told my hub that 12 steps are for addiction, can be very good for that, but i'm dealing w/ trauma, and that's a whole 'nother beast. those 'words of wisdom' just don't go far enough, don't hit right.
sharing this w/ others hasn't worked well for me, either. i'm grateful for this forum in more ways than i can list. the best people i've never met. i'm glad you're here. i, too, have that pull to respond to others' journals but have learned that there are times it's not in my best interest. you're being here is all about you. do what you want when you want. it's self-ish, rather than selfish. being there for your 'self', especially in times of need.
keep taking care of you as best you can, ok? love and hugs (if that's ok) :hug:
:bighug:
Sanmagic said i'm glad you're here. .
Thank you, San. These words are music to my ears. And, thank you for the validation that the 12 steps aren't for you either. Love and hugs are always welcome. And, thanks for giving me permission to be self-ish.
Armee, thanks for the hugs! I can feel the support behind them.
Feeling very exhausted today,and depressed, and just feel like giving up. College son is home, being testy, and this is creating disagreements between my husband and myself (He and I both have a LOT of baggage, and at times we trigger each other). Haven't sleep well the past 2 nights. I'm sick to death of CPTSD. I wish I could just go to sleep for 6 months, and forget about it all.
Going to sleep for 6 months sounds lovely. :grouphug:
I hope the triggering settles soon.
Yep sleeping sounds like really good to me too and I feel the same about CPTSD - sick to death of it as well.
I hope you can give yourself self care whatever that is for you.
:bighug:
Thank you, Moondance and Armee. It's good to have your support.
I'm also feeling depressed, because whenever one of our sons is with us, my husband becomes nervous and uptight, and he pulls away from me. I think this is making me feel lonely, and probably triggering my abandonment. I felt very depressed this morning while he and I were at the farmer's market. He mentioned it, and I briefly told him why I felt depressed. I felt a little less depressed after we spoke. I'm sure the sleep issues and exhaustion are feeding the depression. Thankfully I was able to take a nap this afternoon. My sleep is messed up from some drugs I was on, and then the hypervigilance from the CPTSD doesn't help, either.
I'm feeling sad today. My college age younger son is home with us for the summer, and I had hopes that it would be a positive thing. I love him very much, and was happy I'd get to see him a lot this summer.
A lot of the times when I try to talk to him, I can tell he doesn't want to talk to me. I realize that this is common for a 20 year old, but at the same time, it hurts me, and sometimes triggers me. At times, he is critical, and this triggers me sometimes, especially when it is unfair criticism, or I'm especially tired that day.
Then, he got very sick, and ended up being hospitalized for pneumonia, and tonsillitis. He is home now, and doing much better, but going through all that was very stressful for all of us.
I'm feeling sad and grieving that we don't have a better family life. I worked hard at being very nurturing and loving to both of my children throughout their lives. It makes me feel like somehow I am inadequate, and that my ability to have a close and loving relationship with people is lacking. My husband thinks my standards and expectations are too high. Perhaps they are.
I hope that you and your son find ways to connect while he is home. I am sorry that he was sick and am
glad he is on the mend.
NL, i relate to having family problems, doing all i could, and things still didn't turn out the way i thought they might. it just sucks, and i'm sorry you're experiencing this. i hope you can somehow get a better connection w/ your son, and i'm glad he's on the path to recovery. keep taking care of you, ok? i know it can be rough, especially when we're depressed, but do the best you can. each effort helps. may i send love and hugs your way? :hug:
Rainydiary said "I hope that you and your son find ways to connect while he is home." Thankfully, he is doing much better. He is much less testy, and he and I have been getting along well. He is quiet, but sometimes he and I have conversations.
I had gone no contact with everyone in my FOO. Unfortunately, my 3 siblings were brainwashed by narcmom to also scapegoat me. I re-established contact with my oldest sister earlier in the year, and it has been going pretty well. I did this because in the past 10 years, I had seen a major change in her for the better. Anyway, the conversation with her went well. We didn't go into anything deep or personal, we just talked about our kids and husbands, and what we were doing. However, it still brought up some emotions I have towards my FOO, and I ended up talking about it with my husband today. I'm feeling some depression, and struggling with the feeling of shame. I know the shame is not logical, because I was targeted by not just the immediate family, but to a certain degree, even by some cousins, and aunts. I'm still working to overcome that feeling of inner shame. I have to keep reminding myself, that none of this is my fault, and I'm a child of God, and I'm not defined by the way these people saw me, which was very twisted and distorted. I'm just worn out right now.
:wave: Natureluvr,
I can so relate to your post. I'm also no contact with most of FOO. I occasionally speak with a cousin but I've even limited that.
So glad for you that your son is doing better. A relief for you.
I stand with you Natureluvr.
:hug:
Moondance, your response brought tears to my eyes, because I was very touched by your warmth and empathy. Thank you for this.
:bighug:
NL, if i may, i think that shame you feel actually belongs to the people who have hurt you. it's shameful they treated you like they did. it's not on you. shame on them.
i'm glad you and your son are doing better together, and that some of his surliness went away. maybe it was cuz he was getting sick and didn't know it? anyway, i hope the rest of the summer goes well for the both of you. love and hugs :hug:
NL, if i may, i think that shame you feel actually belongs to the people who have hurt you. it's shameful they treated you like they did. it's not on you. shame on them.
I think you are absolutely right! Yes, they are the ones with the problem. I was always told as a kid, and even into adulthood, "there is something wrong with you". So I grew up with a feeling of being flawed and defective. However, my mom was telling me a lie, and I believe she was projecting her bad feelings about herself onto me. I refuse to allow her to transfer her shame onto me anymore. Thankfully, I don't feel shame today.
Thanks Sanmagic, for your support. It means a lot to me.
So I asked an acquaintance to go on a walk with me, to see if she would be a good friend. I knew this lady, I'll call her D, from about 20 years ago, when our sons went to school together. Some things she said and did made me uneasy, but I don't know if it's my trauma brain, or if these are genuine red flags. I could use some feedback.
1. She went right in to talking about very personal issues of her own. I ended up sharing some of my own personal stuff. I don't know if I overshared, but at least I didn't reveal my vulnerable inner child to her.
2. She asked me a lot of questions about my own personal life. For example, she asked me if my parents were still alive, I said yes, my mom was alive and in assisted living, then she asked if my mom and dad stayed married or split up. I told her my mom kicked my dad out because he was disabled, which is true. She asked about my sisters, where they lives, etc. Lots of questions.
3. I told her how a pastor of a church was cold and dismissive with me, she asked me if I had confronted him on his coldness and dismissiveness.
4. I shared with her how my mom and sisters disowned me when I got married because we didn't do the wedding how my mom wanted it. She acted extremely shocked, but didn't really give any emotional support.
5. When I said I had a poor memory she said "Don't say that. If you keep telling yourself that, it will cause what you say come to pass". I told her I didn't fully agree with that.
6. When we were leaving I said "Wow, it's humid". She said "I tend not to complain about the weather. We have air conditioning, and some people don't have air conditioning". I wondered if she was criticizing me in a covert way for complaining?
I would like to hear what you all thing of these things. Are these red flags, or am I being too sensitive?
My thought on this now, is that I could proceed with caution. Maybe go out with her on occasion, but don't try to be her best friend.
there are red flags for me, NL. maybe these kinds of things are ok on an occasional 'walk'. no judgment there. i think, if you're asking, your gut is already telling you something, and in my experience, my gut has never told me i'm too sensitive. other people have, but never my gut. love and hugs :hug:
I love what San said. :grouphug:
The first few items on your list made me think she just also wants a close friend to share the hard stuff with. But the last few made me feel like she is a type that will want to correct and fix you. But I think also those are very easy mistakes to make just us being imperfect humans all of us. Her included. For me the real test is if you explain to someone how something they've said made you feel and if they then criticize THAT too, or if they apologize and try to do differently.
But San is absolutely right, the gut actually never lies. So listen to what that is telling you. It doesn't necessarily mean there's no hope for the relationship but it is telling you there's something that crossed your boundaries or made you feel bad or unsafe. That's important to listen to and respect. You have choices for what you do with that information, and your gut will probably weigh in on that, too.
Thank you, Armee, and San, for your feedback. I've done a little reading about toxic friendships, and I've sat with my feelings, discussed this with my husband. I've decided not to continue to hang out with this person D. The clincher for me, was that for a day and a half after I was with her, I felt drained, and anxious. Being with her brought me down, for sure. I also felt somewhat triggered by the very heavy and personal things she shared with me. This is not a good sign at all. I realized that when I shared, I got a very minimal response, which is another red flag. And, when she was sharing, it was dumping. She spent about 20 minutes talking about the problems in her life, not giving me any space to respond to her. These are all big red flags.
I'm disappointed. But, I'm also very grateful that I have the skills and knowledge to avoid yet another toxic friendship from developing.
:cheer:
Cheering on listening to the gut and knowing what to keep out.
:cheer: Natureluvr,
It must feel really good that you have the skills and knowledge to look after yourself in these situations! Cheering for you as well.
I read your initial post and felt the same as you on this situation. I doubt my judgment therefore was unable to respond for fear of saying the wrong thing. Hmmm our gut doesn't lie as someone else said.
Thanks for sharing this experience.
:bighug:
I'm very glad I found this forum! Thank you Armee for cheering me on. Thank you Moondance, for validating my feelings on this. I totally agree, our gut does tell the truth.
Having CPTSD sucks, it truly does.
For some reason, my brain has started ruminating over a remark made to me by a security guard at the bank a week and a half ago. I imagine people without CPTSD/trauma would have been irritated, and then just forgotten about this comment.
As my husband and I were walking in the bank, my husband was holding the door open for me. The security guard remarks to him "You had better say yes ma'am!". I was like, what? It felt to me like a snide remark, where he was implying that I was a domineering controlling woman, and he was the poor henpecked husband. I did actually send an email to the bank manager complaining about this, since I felt he was inappropriate.
A couple of years ago, I had some total stranger make a similar remark to my husband and I while we were at the store. My husband had picked up edamame in the shells, and I asked him to get edamame without the shells. This a**hole says to my husband "You had better just do what she says". I made as if to throw the bag at the guy to make a joke, and the guy just gave me a dirty look, so then I realized he was being snide and hostile. (When I mentioned to my husband how I didn't like this on our drive home, my husband got irritated with me.)
So, I suspect I was more triggered by the security guard's comment, because it reminded me of the incident in the grocery store, as well as previous abuse and harassment.
I think what is happening is that I get triggered by these things, because I had so much bullying and harassment and abuse growing up, both in my family, and at school. My husband doesn't fully understand why I get triggered by this stuff, and tries to convince me not to take it personally, or get triggered.
Does this happen to other people here? What is a way I can overcome this?
Yeah this completely.
For me it seems to be that I have been trained to not trust myself and think I'm always wrong, rather than the bullying history that drives yours. So I'm always panicking that I've done something wrong for instance if an impatient ** honks at me. Sends me a flutter but my husband it just rolls off his back. Ugh cptsd does suck indeed
Hi Natureluvr,
Yes, these things do happen to me - and I find that what triggers me won't affect another person that I know, and there will be things that trigger the other people that I don't mind at all. I think it's really interesting how much that happens, and as I begin to recognize the things that trigger me more, I can then see them and perhaps not be as affected by them as I would have been without acknowledging it.
Sorry - now I've written all of that - I'm not sure it makes sense to me, so I'm not sure it will make sense to you either. Apologies. I've got a rule not to edit myself currently, and I am very much wanting to delete it - but I'll leave it there (just disregard anything that doesn't makes sense).
Hope :)
Armee, yes, there are different "flavors" of CPTSD. Good insight.
Hope, I do understand what you wrote, thank you. And yes, at least I understand what is happening, and why. I feel better having complained to the bank manager. She apologized, and said she will speak to the guy. It feels good having some power and agency as adults that I never had as a child, when I was helpless to do anything about the abuse.
*************** trigger warning ****************************
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I'm grieving. My evil sadistic narc mom used me as her punching bag, with severe physical, verbal, emotional, and spiritual abuse. She turned all my siblings against me as well, and taught them to see me as inferior, broken, and worthless. They learned from her to abuse me as well. They all disowned me on the day of my wedding 37+ years ago. Now, I have no relationship with any of them except a distant one with my older sister, who lives far away. Neither do I have relationships with my niece or nephews because of this evil, toxic situation. My niece just got married. While I did get an invitation, I know it was only a perfunctory formality. I tried to connect with this niece several years ago, and she blew me off completely. So, all I got to see were a few pictures on facebook.
My heart is broken. I'm just shocked that one evil narc person can cause all of this brokenness and damage. I hurt inside when I hear other people talk about the fun times and the relationships they have with their own extended family. I have none, because narc mom took that away from me when I was a child. I take that back, I have managed to establish some contact with a couple of cousins. However, I have lost my siblings, and my nieces and nephews.
The loss is very real and very raw right now.
:'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
Your post so resonates with me Natureluvr. :bighug: if helpful whilst you grieve.
The loss of family can be great for some of us. Especially if a person's belief system is such that family is important. Such is my belief and why the losses hurt as much as they do.
My head knows it's better, healthier for me to not be on relationship with them but my heart, my soul really hurts and longs for time spent with siblings, cousins, nieces and nephews.
I grieve with you Natureluvr.
:bighug: :bighug: Natureluvr
Like with Moondance, my head knows it's better to be without FOO, but my heart is still grieving. Sitting with you :grouphug:
It's a huge loss. Accompanying you in your grief here. :hug:
Moondance said Especially if a person's belief system is such that family is important. Such is my belief and why the losses hurt as much as they do..
Yes, family is very important to me, and that is why it hurts so much.
Blueberry said "my head knows it's better to be without FOO, but my heart is still grieving. Sitting with you". I do know in my adult rational self that I am much better being no contact with my FOO. And yet, I grieve, deeply, for the losses.
Armee said It's a huge loss. Accompanying you in your grief here.
Thank you Armee.
These responses help me more than you all will ever know. It is so healing to feel heard, and understood, and I can feel the warmth, compassion, and empathy of your responses.
NL, may i jump in w/ everyone here and say these losses can be tremendously painful. i've had to go NC w/ my oldest D about 8 yrs. ago, and there is still a hole in my heart, and a longing to make contact w/ her again. My T told me it's my 'mother brain' that wants it to be fixed, but my rational brain knows it just can't be. we do what we need to do to take care of ourselves, even when it leaves us gasping. i'm with you on this. love and hugs :hug:
Sanmagic, thank you for your kind support. Yes, it is really painful! I'm sorry you have this same situation with your daughter. I think it takes bravery and courage to go no contact with these toxic people.
Hi natureluvr,
You have so many losses, and I want to send you a hug (if that's ok) :hug:
Hope :)
I have a situation here, and I'd love some specific feed back on what you think is going on here.
I was a member of a church, lets call it RC. My husband and I left this church a year ago, and went to a new church called PC. I was and am a member of a quilting group in the RC church since over 2 years ago. This group meets 2-3 times monthly in the church fellowship hall.
Honestly, before the incident I'm about to describe happened, I was already pretty ambivalent about the group, and had stopped going over the summer, and didn't intend to go back, but then the leader L called me, and talked me into going back. This was in early August.
There is this one elderly woman called G who also goes. She has been a member of the church a very long time. Last summer, I opened a windows in the fellowship hall. G came in and asked "who opened the window?". I said I did, because it was cooler outside than inside, and it would save money on air conditioning. She scowled at me. Instead of just taking it, I said aloud "Uh oh, G is giving me a disapproving look". And G denied it, and said "No, I didn't". I didn't say anything else. My purpose for saying this was to stand up to her. Another time, I was trying to describe my difficulties with getting a real ID at the drivers liscense office, and she kept interjecting and being a know it all, trying to say how she did it, and had no difficulties. Just petty stuff.
Last week, there was a meeting, and the 2 leaders were telling the rest of us about some mistakes we had been making. They were speaking in a respectful tone of voice. These were not major mistakes, they were along the lines of making sure the quilt pieces were cut properly, that the material wasn't too thin, etc. They spoke in respectful tones. However, then G spoke up, and told us "When you select squares you must make sure they are really square'. However, she spat the words out in a venomous, disrespectful, and contemptuous tone. Being as how I'm a junior member of this quilting group, and no longer a member of the church that hosts the group, I did not feel it was my place to say anything to her, as she was speaking the group, and not to me personally. However, I felt how she spoke was offensive and inappropriate. I felt anxious and uncomfortable the rest of that day.
A few days later, I sent a text to the group leader L saying the following: "L I think at least for a while I should just come to the group when G is not there. I was very taken aback by the tone of her voice in which she spoke to the group. Her tone of voice was hateful and contemptuous. At what time does she usually leave?"
L responded back to me "I'm so sorry you feel this way. Her leaving time varies. More times than not she leaves before lunch. Maybe it would be helpful for you to talk to her and voice your concerns. I don't want to lose anyone, but I don't want anyone to feel uncomfortable either. I will put this situation in my prayers.".
Now I feel like there is an elephant in the room that no one wants to admit to or address.
Personally, I feel like the leader L is abdicating her responsibility to deal with this problem. I don't feel it is my place to speak to G about her disrespectul attitude to the rest of us. When someone says to me "I'm sorry you feel that way", it feels kind of like gaslighting. I feel like this leader is letting G off the hook, and letting her get away with bad behavior, because L the leader doesn't want to deal with it. I also know that I'm triggered by G's tone of speaking, because often this was how my abusive mother spoke to me.
I was already ambivalent about staying in this group anyway. Today, I went to the group after G had left, so I didn't have any issues, but I just don't feel like the group really has much to offer me. I really don't feel like fighting a battle with this woman G. I think it is very likely she would just deny speaking in that nasty tone, the way she denied giving me a dirty look about the open window last year. And after writing all this, I realize it is all just very petty. I'm thinking I should just walk away from it all.
I agree with your use of the word gaslighting. It sure sounds like it to me.
In my own life, whenever I have a G behaving like a bully, that's exactly what I call him/her. A bully. They say whatever they want, and then accuse me of receiving it wrong when I stand up to them. That is classic gaslighting, which is a malicious act. And because it's a malicious act, I call it bullying.
This is a rule I live by: Bullies hate one thing over anything else. They hate being stood up to by their victims. When stood up to, they either downplay their bullying, accuse me of being the bully, or they just plain lie and deny, or, in some cases, they seek revenge on my having stood up to them.
Since the group is supporting her behaviors, I'd leave if it were me. And I wouldn't let L call me again and ask me to return. I'd just cite Irreconcilable Differences and say thank you for the invitation, but I'm on a new path now.
Good luck with everything. You're a kind person. Maybe because of your kindness, you rejoined the group when L asked you to. I have a ton of respect for you, and I hope you're able to work through your decision to stay or leave that group. Whichever you decide to do, I'll support you in my prayers and posts.
I agree with Papa Coco and your gut instinct Natureluvr.
It's difficult to do though - I know and understand. It hurts that more connections are being lost - we have lost so much snd sometimes its just too much loss.
So yes whatever you decide for yourself I stand with you - I so get either way you go.
:hug:
PC said "Since the group is supporting her behaviors, I'd leave if it were me. And I wouldn't let L call me again and ask me to return."
I've decided to not go back. I was already ambivalent about the group anyway, and now this is the proverbial straw. I a friend of mine had a good insight - this woman G might give a lot of $$ to the church, and no one wants to deal with her honestly.
Moondance said "It hurts that more connections are being lost". Ah, thank you for this. I've been wondering why I've had a hard time leaving it. I think this is it. However, these connections are very shallow at best, and will be dysfunctional if I were to go back and they were all pretending the elephant is not there. I suspect G might be a narcissist.
Good for you Natureluvr :cheer:
Your friends point about the $$ to the church is a really good one - sad but it is very prevalent in church system - just my jaded opinion though.
:hug:
"Your friends point about the $$ to the church is a really good one - sad but it is very prevalent in church system - just my jaded opinion though."
I agree, in my own personal experience, this sort of attitude is common in many churches I've been to, unfortunately.
I've been pretty inactive on this site. I had a hard time finding the login. I couldn't find my journal in the private journal section. Maybe it was deleted?
Anyway, I'm doing OK today. Just wanted to check in, and say I am still here. I miss you all. I hope to back in soon, to read others' journals, and to write in my own journal.
I'm still NC with my malignant narc mom, and 2 of my 3 siblings. I do have some limited contact with one of my siblings, and that is going pretty well. She is respecting my boundaries. I'm still going through a grieving process with all the losses I have had. It is cyclical - I got through a period of grief, for a day or several days, then I feel a profound sense of relief from releasing all the pain that has been inside me for decades. I can't say enough about how healing it is to truly grieve, and release and let go of the emotional pain.
My younger son is in his last year of college. The field he has chosen will take him far away from where I live. My older son also chose a profession that took him far away.
I cried for about 1/2 hour this afternoon, My tiny daughter (my infant inner child) is sad to think of both my grown sons living so far away. It reminds her of when she was all alone as a baby and neglected. The adult me realizes it is important and healthy for both my sons to live their own lives how they choose, and I support that. But my inner child is feeling lonely and abandoned. Part of it is the time of year. The adult me is reassuring the child me that I am here for her now, and she is no longer all alone. I know I will feel better tomorrow, for having worked through some of the grief from my abandonment. My husband is here for me, as well.
Natureluvr,
A big heartfelt hug to you: :bighug: