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[I was the fault]

Hi Sandstone,

I said to myself if i knew these people in real life but weren't related to them, i would have nothing to do with. Then i reasoned but they are family amd they have stood by you with all your faults. Tho to be fair as an adult i havnt really caused them any trouble that i can recall.  So then i thought but if it affects your mental health being involved with these people then family or not i shouldn't be around them.

Oh boy, do I relate to this.
For me personally, I've come to realize that most of my 'faults' have actually been events THEY said it was a 'fault' to begin with, to which they added I was the fault itself.
I didn't do something 'faulty' (which we all do at times), no, I AM the fault itself.

I want to share a YouTube video with you of a guy who addresses this very issue boldly. So perhaps a trigger warning for boldness is required. Never mind his "go fund me" pleas. 
Especially from 3:40 this video applies to how you possibly are feeling (I surely feel like he describes in the year+ NC I'm in now), and from 4:33 he specifically talks about the "It wasn't that bad" formula we keep rehashing time after time. From 7:15 to 7:55 he drives the point home, eloquently in my opinion and experience.
Flying Into Glass: The Narcissist's Voice In Your Head

Well: It WAS that bad.
We can hardly belief it, admit it to ourselves.
Unfortunately, those who have not experienced it themselves have an even harder time to admit it was that bad. Because it all sounds crazy. And it is. But it's not WE who are crazy, it's our abusers who are, and who created the crazy dynamic which exists and is perpetuated to this day. Unless we stop it, and more often than not LC, Medium Chill, GrayRock or NC are the only viable options to end it.



 

[Often, recorded signs of a reversed anatomy are dismissed as an error of the x-ray technician, the left and right labels supposedly mixed-up.]

Situs inversus (=having a 'mirrored' anatomy)

***possibly triggering for "why doesn't anybody belief what I tell them?"***

Synopsis:

I was diagnosed with situs inversus totalis at six months old. Often, recorded signs of a reversed anatomy are dismissed as an error of the x-ray technician, the left and right labels supposedly mixed-up. It was only when I was taken to hospital with unrelated breathing problems that doctors began to consider the possibility that I had situs inversus. "Sit down and listen to everything I tell you", the doctor told my parents, who, even after listening intently, were left in a state of disbelief. Several medical staff hurried into the room, excited. Medics may only come across one case of situs inversus in their careers, and I was later invited to take part in a Guess What's Wrong With The Baby trainee doctor event.

(text formatting mine)

[together]

Hi sesame,

These are second hand tips I've read, since I don't have any in-laws.
But one tip that strikes me as golden has been: it's the mother of your husband, so HE gets to deal with her. 
Perhaps try to make some arrangements upfront with your husband that when you get triggered, you can leave and he will 'pick up the bill' and entertain his mother. That he makes sure she doesn't follow you when you need to exit for a while.

As for staying calm with boundaries, my experiences with narcissist and other high-conflict people is that Medium Chill and GrayRock work pretty well. And apart from that, if boundaries really keep being busted not staying calm is a viable option too in my experience, if only from you not keeping it all inside.
Which is a bit the downside of Medium Chill too. I usually need to rage and shout after the fact.

Are there any feared boundary violations you are expecting? Can you discuss those with your husband? And draw up a plan together what you both together will do in such case? Perhaps she violates his boundaries too. If in such cases you stick together, she doesn't stand a chance.

I hope her visit will be pretty uneventful.

 

 

You DO matter, dear meursault.

Pick up the pictures and then it's over with her. Don't mail her anymore. Don't read any of her mails anymore.
Your idea of recording your visit on your phone is great.
I really hope that visit will be your last dealings with her, and do I understand she might not even be there? So much the better.

I can relate to the lost hope you now feel. That IS hard. Indeed it's quite like a breakup...
If you can, try to not beat yourself up over this. It's not you, at all.

I'm in a bit of limbo today... up, down.

*** trigger warning: this is a bit dark***

edited it out.

[Rondel de l'Adieu]

In Dutch this would be: "Scheiden doet lijden": Parting does make suffering.

Partir, c'est mourir un peu,
C'est mourir à ce qu'on aime :
On laisse un peu de soi-même
En toute heure et dans tout lieu.

C'est toujours le deuil d'un vœu,
Le dernier vers d'un poème ;
Partir, c'est mourir un peu.
C'est mourir à ce qu'on aime.

Et l'on part, et c'est un jeu,
Et jusqu'à l'adieu suprême
C'est son âme que l'on sème,
Que l'on sème à chaque adieu...
Partir, c'est mourir un peu.
Rondel de l'Adieu (1891) by Edmont Haraucourt

(somewhat free translation)
Parting is dying a bit
The mourning of something one loves
One looses a bit of one-self
In every hour and every place.

It's the grief of a vow
the last verse of a poem
Parting, it's dying a bit
The mourning of what one loves.

And as one parts, it's a play,
And just as the paramount goodbye
It's the soul you sow,
One sows in every goodbye...
parting is dying a little


In grief over the loss of my brother. #3 of my FOO I had to cut contact with.
We had a good thing going from my 19th to about my early 40's. It has since slowly died.

Hi WarmMuddle  and welcome.

As a long time bachelor I can't say I have experienced what you are going through at the moment, but I wanted to say hello nonetheless. And welcome. 

I hope and wish this community will be of aid in your process.

In time, have a look at our Guidelines for All Members and Guests as they differ at some points with those at OOTF.


Dutch Uncle.

Thank you for such mood lifting story. 

[is]

This is crazy making, meursault.
IMHO you are not self-sabotaging at all, and you did get the clarification you were asking for. Unfortunately the clarity is a different one you hoped for.

(I had brought in some pictures of me as a boy (and a couple of me and my one good ex-girlfriend), which I mentioned I wouldn't have been back last time if she hadn't had them, and she joked that she's holding them hostage.  She also accidentally underbilled me.)  I was feeling kind of relieved by ending it.

Both are red flags.
The hostage joke is outright rude. These are personal items of you, one doesn't 'joke around' with those. She's messing with your mind, instead of easing your mind.

The rest of what you've written sounds equally bad.
You are doing the right thing by ending this.

Hi B.Smith  and welcome. 

Many of us have had similar experiences as you had right now.

I hope and wish this site and community will be a support for you in the time to come.

Congrats.  Well done. 

One of the positive things that came out of the meeting was the union rep's confirmation that yes - my class was overloaded despite what the principal tried to say.  I was able to calmly tell my principal that her insistence on stating this when I know better causes me to distrust her.

Wow. 

And yes Dutch Uncle - previously I have gone into fight mode, become angry, and made heated statements that have only made the situation worse.  This has given them fuel to engage in gaslighting.

  That's terrible of them.  I'm really happy for you on what you have achieved by calling in the trade union rep.

[that]

 

on calling the help-line.

The internet and replies to your posts here at the forum cannot be that fast, but we're here to stay. Together with you, dear Samantha19. Always.

A belated birthday to you too.

Dutch.

[does]

Boy, do I have a lot of recovery-journalling to do. The process is going through some rapids at the moment.

My brother repatriated with his family. He has a very bad marriage (signified by him having affairs, at one time he was starting a second family 'on the side', him working towards divorce etc.) and now is pretending he and wifey 'staying together for the kids'. Which is a bald faced lie. Which I know for a decade now, and I cannot keep up appearances anymore, especially not in the face of his kids.
(I wrote about this in History repeats itself. Another generation being abused.
So for a year now I have refused to visit him now that he is repatriated. Not that he has been too inviting, as I had to learn from mom and dad he WAS repatriating and I never got a change of address from him. Last X-mas I had to contact him on where to send the X-mas greeting card to. That is how close me and my bro are at the moment.

Half a year we had a meeting (just the two of us) where I would tell him why I don't visit. He brought up my NC with DramaMama, and I said to him: One subject today, you may choose: My NC with mom or me not coming to your FOC. He choose the first. Which admittedly was easier for me too. Speaking about my grievances on a third party is easier than airing my grievances about him to his face.

The past week I got triggered, and I did send him a card (and by extension also his FOC as it was not in an envelope) where I said I wouldn't be visiting them and that my brother knew. This was not a good move on my part, I regretted it the day after, but truth to be told: my brother does know I'm not buying his lies and deceit. And he could have known in detail, only also choose the easy way out last time: change the subject of our meeting to my NC with DramaMama.

So I got a pissed very short mail from him that he didn't know and now wanted to know.
I answered pissed to that, told him he already could have known for long if he hadn't changed the subject last time.
To which bro replied I should set a date for a meeting.
A dragged my feet little, but while doing so I realized: "Wait a minute, it always me who does initiate "* is going on" meetings with him (people pleaser syndrome), now HE wants to know, who does HE not pick a date?" and stayed silent. Admittedly, that was also a Freeze response. But one I also settled for.

Today I got a mail from bro: "Really, it takes more that three weeks for you to reply and set a date?" Which is funny, as this brought back memories (and perhaps even EF's) to me trying to organise something for our mother's jubilee a few years back, asked bro and sis if they were in to do something together, where my brother initially didn't reply and I had a back-and-forth e-mail conversation with sis (all CC to bro) that more or less concluded with the proposition: "Lets pick a date, at the latest six weeks from now, and then we have many months to figure out what would be a nice/good thing to organize".
For six weeks still no reply in any shape or form from bro, until he mailed at the very last moment he didn't know if he would be able to pick a date.
I remember well that my visceral reaction was: "How on earth did that take six weeks to write?"
I also remember well that I decided the and there that from that moment on I would allow myself a six-weeks response time to any of his mails about whatever subject. I was done with these games he plays.

So I answered my bro yesterday "That we got of to a good start" (sarcasm) "you suddenly seem to be in a real hurry, and if that's the case YOU could have set a date. You want to know after all, don't you?" which I really do feel is the case too. your crisis is not my emergency is phrase I picked up somewhere on how to deal with these manipulators (and my bro is one, and not only with me) and I have a not hanging on my wall (to stop me from people pleasing) "No more Mister Nice Guy. (only in selected theaters)."

A few hours later I got his reply: "Forget about it." (liberal translation: screw you)

To be honest, I thought he might, and 50-50 I hoped he would. It saves me a lot of hassle.
So I replied back: "That's clear language." (liberal translation: Check, Roger, message received loud and clear. Lets forget about it. Suits me too.)

So that's it: NC with bro. Who is a DramaSis' and DramaMama's enabler anyway, and the relationship I had with him has for a long time now slowly narrowed down to him complaining about his wife and the schemes he was setting up to have it all his way and depart from his wife preferably in a manner where he would loose practically nothing, and she as much as he could possibly make her loose.
Which will stil happen at some point, no doubt, and I cannot watch this 'train-wreck in slowmotion" progress any further.

I guess that's a peace of sorts.
I'm giving myself a  . What a family. 

Update: I got another mail from bro. "Sorry. I was in a foul mood this morning. I'd like to meet. Is date X, time Y location Z OK with you?"

I replied: "yes, that's OK."
I will be this week.

Good. Progress.

Update II: So I met him today. I had been in a state for days now. Well, for a year is probably a more accurate description.
I rehearsed hard, long, often and out loud. So much to say!
Shortly before I went down I made a note with the three reasons why I will not visit him:
(and they actually do come in this order)
First: my relationship with him sucks.
Second: I've been hearing about his horrible marriage for over a decade now, and I can't take it anymore. I'm done. I can't have another three years at least* like that. (* bro interrupted me at that point: "Perhaps even longer." LOL. Talking about affirmation/validation.  )
Thirdly: He is 'pulling the wool over my eyes'/taking me for a fool/gaslighting me (of course I didn't use the term gaslighting) and I'm having none of it.

Basically that's all I said. He sat there sternly, and actually only responded to him 'pulling the wool over my eyes'. By trying to convince me he was not pulling the wool over my eyes by pulling wool over my eyes. Right...

I then asked him if he anything to say to the other things, and he said no. Then proceeded to blame his wife some more. I let it run. It was soon over. Anyway, it only reinforced my resolve to get out of that mess.
"Now I know what I can tell my kids why you won't visit", he said to close the subject. Right! Like he is going to tell them any of this. 
Not that I mind, I knew beforehand he will tell kids nonsense anyway. He has been gaslighting his kids for a decade now, why would he stop now?

So it was all over within 15 minutes.
We did end up staying together for half an hour. I asked about his kids and their school (last year for the eldest: University next year) and other stuff like that, and then had a talk about our old dad and his deteriorating health. That was actually comforting. We probably will be getting along there. As far as our uAspergers dad allows us near.

I feel OK.
So it won't be NC, but LC.

Update III, 6 hours after the fact:
I'm angry. I'm furious. I'm indignated. 
Part of... stop ... ALL of his 'pulling the wool over my eyes"/gaslighting had just one focus: his wife is to blame. Really. I can't even express or try to explain how this 'works', but he has yet again managed to try to convince me (which I dissociative (?) just let pass by) that everything is to blame on wifey.
About a year ago I spoke to a dear friend of me about me not wanting to see bro anymore, which confused her, and to sort of try to tell her just how bad it really was I told her: "My bro finds offense in his wife breathing." And this really is not that far besides the truth. If at all.
I'm not concerned about my sister in law's physical safety at all, but apart from that my bro DOES resent his wife for simple things to the equivalent of her simply breathing.

I'm so glad I got out. But as with DramaMama and DramaSis now the circus of the Flying Monkeys will start with PsychoBro.
I guess the only upside is that DramaMama and DramaSis are out of the picture Flying-Monkey-wise. 

[Maybe that's all the good I can get out of it,]

I want to stop, and that feels right, but I'm basically afraid that this is missing what the old tehrapist thinks is prime territory for healing.  I don't feel comfortable with her responses, though.  I maybe did the healing part:  asserting how it hurt me, defining boundaries, challenging mistreatment etc.  Maybe that's all the good I can get out of it, since her response wasn't adding much past that.  I've learned my expectations were not wrong.

I'd say that may well be a valid assessment.
I have very little experience with therapy, but I think in any case there's always room for a 'break' or a period of 'taking it easy'. It's not a race. Well, not a sprint in any case.
And it's probably fine to switch 'coaches' (i.e. therapists) now and then.
The psychologists I did see never got to even giving me a diagnosis, but the talks I did have did provide me with something, even if it wasn't much and I was left to fend for myself once more. And so I moved on and got here. 

If it's any comfort to you: I will first need to work through my TherapistMom with a therapist before I can work with a therapist on the other stuff... Though working through the therapy I received from TherapistMom is probably the major issue anyway.

In this section there are a few more threads on 'dealing with therapy/therapists", perhaps you'll find some experiences you can relate to there. And there is also a thread called I need therapy just to go to therapy by some other members. Perhaps you'll find that useful.

Good luck, take your time and I wish you well.

Dutch.