My Teenage Son- Big picture? I feel like I'm not seeing the forest for the trees

[C.]

Several weeks ago I posted about my teen-age niece who had near suicide attempt.  I’ve been able to communicate with her parents (my brother and sister-in-law) in a way that I think felt supportive and caring.  My adult daughter has connected with her cousin and drove to visit her.  Often she's invited her brother for these types of activities, but that has not occurred so far.  She was raised by NF with emotional incest...she fawns and denies some...she also is joy to be around and has many friends.
   
But I’m feeling uneasy about my teen son’s (almost 16 years old) response.  His first response was not empathetic at all.  Kind of a “that figures, she’s socially weird…” attitude and words.  The words and attitude mirror his father’s (my NPD ex-H) attitude about the girl.  My son defended his response somewhat saying he was “sorry”, basically just now surprised…Later that week his father commented that he was struggling a bit with the situation.  His father is actually a Therapist so he knows about “emotions” but his NPD precludes objectivity and a true “fathering” perspective of what’s best for our son.  I can never trust his reactions since they’ve ultimately always been self-serving.

My son gets very defensive and angry if I try to talk with him about subjects that he doesn’t want to discuss.  He can then “stew” in the anger for hours or days.

This all feels convoluted with a couple of topics for me. 

First, how to appropriately engage my son in the reality in a way that supports him?  Was his response normal?   

Second, I spent my life fawning over N father and husband with recent awareness about it.  Am I grooming NPD in my son unintentionally?  Or was I in the past?  Assuming yes to some degree, how do I avoid the pattern now?  What are areas to focus?  I suspect empathy is one and have made some headway there…what else? 

Third, what is simply normal teen development with my son?

Fourth, what's the big picture here?   ... I feel like I'm not seeing the forest for the trees...

[marycontrary]

Oh Honey...what a conundrum. This is what I understand about dealing with teens who may be developing NPD. Judge Judy type of boundaries, with no disrespect, and this is a big one, perfect mirroring of his emotions, which means you are hearing him. So when you mirror him, use the exact tone of voice, attitude, and the smart alec vocabulary he uses. So if you change from Florence Henderson to Judge Judy, he may think you are "getting" him.

This is what I understand these type of kids to need.

Disclamier---I am not a parent. But I have read this many times.   

[C.]

Hi Mary,  Good point about mirroring.  I'm pretty good at being calm so that helps.  I'm not much of a judge judy type person, but i'll try to figure out how to integrate me and what he needs from a parent.  He does have kind and nurturing moments.  Ultimately as his mom and through all this cptsd work I know that I need to provide unconditional love which includes healthy limits, but if he develops some N traits I'll still love him, just figure out how to be safe.  I may need to do more research on NPD and "prevention" w/kids & teens.  Both his father and his grandfather seem to be NPD.

[marycontrary]

Severe Sociopath and NPD traits run rampant in through at least 4 generations on my father's paternal side. The males come out the same, whether or not they were raised by the PD father. There is a big time loose screw that is genetic.

However, I see with my brother that he had no boundaries while growing up, and my parents just rolled over to his will with heavy partying and drug use. No mirroring and constructive negative feedback or discipline.

Yes, boundaries all the way. This is a gift greater than gold...


   

[keepfighting]

Talking to teenagers about feelings is often something that makes them uncomfortable and retract into their own shell. In large parts, it's part of the normal development.

As for the case of your niece and her suicide attempt:  So sorry for her! I hope she is in good hands now and gets as much (professional) help and non judgmental support as she needs to stabilize and feel better again. 

Your son's reaction to your request sounds a bit cold on the surface but it could also be that he finds the whole situation just too much and too disconcerting and that's why he doesn't want to deal with it. It actually is a lot to handle - even for us grown ups.

Maybe you could ask your son to treat his cousin like he normally would, like any other person her age so she gets a chance to feel 'normal' again? She has professional help and some grown ups (like you) she can trust for support, so maybe it would be nice for her, too, to have someone she can just hang out with and be treated normally and can leave her problems behind for a bit? Might be easier for your son to handle and relaxing for your niece as well.

I get that you are concerned that your son might be a narc like his father. I am sorry I cannot help you with that. It's a possibility but from the few bits you have told about him so far, he seems to be able to listen to you and change his behaviour if you call him on something - albeit in a very teenagy way but he is a teenager, after all. It's part of the job description  .

Kudos to you! 

[C.]

Thank you keep fighting and Mary,

I've tried some of these strategies the last couple of days and they've been working.

First, this morning when he was yelling at me over him being late for school I kind of "matched" his anger, at least raising my voice, and simply saying that lashing out at me cause he is late is not ok...he settled and was appropriate and pretty close to on time for school.  Other times like this he ends up very late, so it was progress.

As to my niece, good point.  They've actually never been all that close...she has often been pretty critical of my son, correcting him a lot, which grates on his nerves.  Things are a bit better now that they're older.  And yes, she's receiving more supports now including therapy.  But he gets along well with her younger sister and I like the idea of just hanging out and being "normal"...I think he would like that activity.  Also, he's had to deal with suicidal ideation a bit too close to home, I overdosed a little over a year ago.  I know that was rock bottom for me, after reading Walker I work on reminding myself that's simply my very hopeless little girl and I don't believe I'll ever go that far again.  So this might just be too hard emotionally for him and he reacts with a "fight"...aggression...as a coping strategy.  I'll revisit the topic as appropriate over time again.  He might need reassurances again from me that I will not intentionally harm myself again.  I believe that to be true.

I'm noticing that struggling with painful emotions is difficult for him as it is with many of us.  He has a little brother ("viable" infant stillbirth) who died a little more than a decade ago.  My son was a toddler at the time.  I know that at adolescence sometimes kids grieve again as they understand the meaning of loss.  I mentioned this since it was his little brother's birthday a couple of days ago.  My son responded calmly that yes it is more painful now and that no, he didn't want to process by talking with me.

So I think that I'll keep up with the firm limits, the mirroring, and the standard of respectful words & tone.  Plus be on the lookout for moments when he's opening to processing harder emotions.

It has been a bit better the last couple of days, thanks!

[marycontrary]

GOOD GIRL!!!!!!! Yay!!!!!

[C.]

I just wanted to say that my son had a very tearful break through.  He cried, hugged me and was able to express his fears to me verbally.  Then he felt better.  It seems that we continue to heal and learn together on this journey as well.

[marycontrary]

 

WOW!!!! Good job!

[keepfighting]

That's great!

[Milarepa]

This is such good news!!! :-)

[C.]

Thank you everyone!  Yes, I continue to "match" his inappropriate aggressive behavior balanced with a lot of encouragement and sincere acceptance.  He recently disclosed something big with me, cried and hugged me.  It feels like things continue to improve.  So even if he father has NPD, which my and ex's T have implied, he can learn a healthier approach to life.  My T has indicated he sees that as possible.  But it requires a lot of EFFORT as a mom...so the support here really helps.  Thanks everyone!

[C.]

I've been thinking a lot about how to parent my son "well enough" and the reality that all people with NPD were teenagers at one time.  I hope and believe that my son will choose reason and love over NPD like his father, but time will tell.  I found very little online about "prevention."  In fact I found what to me feels like a discussion in another thread with "experts" saying that prevention isn't "possible" when in reality we just don't know.

Mary, I know that you've put some thought in to how your brother developed NPD.  In the spirit of providing good enough parenting for my son I hope you might share with me some of your thoughts on the topic. 

Given your experience what do you and others here think were some of the mistakes leading to NPD with others?

I think this would be a topic I could post in OOTF but I've already begun a conversation here and it seems like a natural segue...

[marycontrary]

C., miel, so sorry I missed your questions!

Again, I am not a mommy, so take my thoughts with a grain of salt.

Narcissism develops when a kid is around lying and gaslighting all of the time. So, just like with borderlines, a kids feeling and perceptions are continuously invalidated, and there is "image" and "face" through about to hide the lies and to manipulate people.

So a huge thing I have read is the mirroring you are doing. When you do that, he knows you "get" him. That is the greatest prevention, methinks.

[C.]

Thanks Mary.  That was just the kind of information I hoped to find...some days are rocky with him so it helps to have the validation and think about how to tweek things or why I do them and what he needs.  Great point about validation. 

I've been mentioning the words Narcissist a few times around my kids.  I never say it's their dad, but I think it helps to have them question and think about the concept. 

I also spoke w/my son yesterday about the great instinct most kids have to choose the healthy option between two parents.  Like if they are exposed to lying vs. honesty, they'll pick honesty.  Not all of the time, but I thought saying this to my son will help validate for him that he has a choice and I "think" he'll pick the healthy option.  He agreed.  His father was unfaithful so I know that down the road it will be important my son sees his identity as a choice of healthier options rather than some sort of fated reality, unlike how his father talked about the affair.  Like it was fated, he had no choice but to imitate his father, blah blah blah  I don't think my son thinks that way.