I feel like my family is hindering my recovery sometimes...

[Minnow]

Myself, my father and my brother have all been NC with my emotionally abusive mother for about five years now.  While this has been great for everyone's wellbeing, there is still a dynamic at play that makes my body tense up and my mood darken whenever I'm around them.

For starters, my brother can definitely be a bully.  He's been like this since we were kids, and it's frustrating to see that we are both adults and he's still doing this.  He will not hesitate to slip in a snide remark or make fun whenever I make a mistake or talk about something he dislikes (like a band).  I have tried to confront him numerous times over the years on this, but this doesn't work.  He will either try to pass it off as a "joke" or accuse me of being too sensitive and emotional and "acting like our mother", and tell me I'm infringing on his right to "free speech" and "honesty".  Plus, he does it specifically to get a rise out of me.  He told me so.  What kind of grown-*** man insults his own sister for kicks?

Dad's not much help in all of this.  I have tried talking to him about it numerous times as well, and he basically throws up his hands and says he can't do anything.  This is unfortunately a repetition of a similar dynamic with Mum, when she was abusing us and Dad would not say or do anything to defend us and tell us to just go and apologise to her and do what she says.  She was abusing him, too, which explains some of it, but he failed in his role as a parent in that area.

I also feel a disinterest in me and my life coming from both of them, which hurts me deeply, as Mum would also not take much of an interest in me unless it was something she could take credit for and use as an example of "what a good mother she is".  I know I am different in many ways to my family.  I am a university graduate (and have gone back for another degree) when my brother dropped out (not because he failed, just didn't want to do it anymore) and my dad only finished high school, I am a musician, I am a passionate person when they're more chilled, etc.  This is completely fine that we're all different people; a good thing, even!  But it seems as though, because we operate in different spheres, they use that as an excuse to not engage in my sphere, or they'll only give a token gesture of such.  They've even told me so explicitly.  I try my best to ask them what's going on in their lives and learn more.  Why can't they do the same for me?

Complicating my feelings on all of this is that they have done a great many things for me over the years that I am very thankful for.  However, these are usually material or financial contributions.  It makes me feel like my love and gratitude are being bought, and so I can't say anything about all the other stuff.

When I visit my family, I become filled with self-doubt.  I feel abnormal and alienated around them, when I shouldn't feel that way around my own family.  I should feel accepted unconditionally.  What should I do?

[Candid]

There's a lot of good observation and clear self-knowledge in your post. If you want to keep your father and brother in your life, you probably need to adjust your expectations of them. There will be plenty of other people IRL or on the forum who will show a genuine interest in you and your accomplishments.

Gray rock http://www.thriveafterabuse.com/going-gray-rock/ doesn't get you the relationship you want with significant others, but it stops you agonising over what they do and don't say. That way you can keep them in your life doing and saying nothing they can complain about.

With an emotionally abusive mother, you're well accustomed to hiding bad feelings. The best healing comes from withdrawing all those very natural hopes and expectations from people who can't or won't acknowledge you, and finding a Family of Choice who will.

As a side-note, father and brother suffered at her hands, too, and for some reason men have a harder time expressing or even acknowledging their feelings. Sounds like brother at least has a few fleas, http://outofthefog.website/what-not-to-do-1/2015/12/3/fleas. Gray rock and a more self-possessed daughter/sister may make it possible for them to open up.

[Kat]

I can't really tell you what to do, but I can say that I TOTALLY get it.  My first therapist used the term "undifferentiated ego mass" to describe the way my family worked.  We were all one.  We all had our roles to play and couldn't stray from them.  My second therapist seconded this motion.  She used the exact same term.  As I've grown and become healthier and more individuated, it's been more and more difficult to be with family.  Unconsciously, they HATE that we are growing and seeing things differently and not just going along as we might have in the past.  It is extremely threatening to them.  And it's completely alienating to us, or to me at least.  Part of me wants to go back to the way it used to be where I had a sense of belonging and support, but the bigger, healthier part of me doesn't want to go back there.  I think the disinterest you're feeling from them is their unconscious fear and desire to hold onto things as they were at all costs. 

Here's an example of not going along with the others that got me into trouble.  This one is a very obvious, conscious one, but there are so many more that are subconscious.  My mother wanted us to go to family therapy so she could "fix" me and my sisters once and for all, when really she was the one who needed the help.  At the end of the therapy, the therapist diagnosed her as having borderline personality disorder.  (She was never told, just us kids.)  During one of the sessions, my mother said that if we all would just promise to call her once a week, then everything would be all better.  I knew better and decided not to play the game.  My three sisters all pledged to my mother that they would call her dutifully each week.  I said I would not make that promise.  It got me in a lot of trouble.  Going against the family system always will.  It's up to you to decide if it's worth it.

I'm struggling to accept that my siblings will never really see me.  To them, I'm the "sick" one, the weak one.  More and more I see that I'm actually the healthy one.  But it's definitely lonely.  It's lonely and it feels so unfair.  You're made to feel that you're being sensitive or that you can't take a joke, but the reality is they are being cruel because they're scared and don't want you to grow.

I'm sorry you're in this situation.  Like I said, I feel it too.  It's been one of the main struggles I've been dealing with lately and it sucks.

[Minnow]

Candid --

You may be correct in your observation that my brother has some fleas.  I have thought the same, though I would hesitate to come right out and say it for two reasons.  One is that I personally don't like to diagnose from a distance.  Two is that both Dad and I can sense (we have discussed this) that he hasn't really addressed his own trauma with our mum.  It's hard, because I really do love and care for my brother and I don't want to trigger him, but I guess I can't set myself on fire to keep him warm.  My counsellor said something similar to me in our last session -- she told me to have empathy for my brother, not sympathy.  The difference, she said, is that empathy involves being compassionate, but still with a healthy detachment, whereas with sympathy, we are also caught up in the other person's struggles.

"Grey rock" might be my only option when things get heated.  I will say, though, that I do have a visceral negative reaction to it, as it's very similar to the advice I've been offered countless times when dealing with bullies -- "just ignore them/don't react".  This piece of advice always seemed like a cop-out to me and like I have to just put up with something that's causing me harm and isn't my fault to begin with, because no one else will stick up for me against something that is obviously wrong.  Sure, I'm responsible for my own feelings, but that doesn't give other people the right to just say whatever.

I guess I'll just have to take a page from Zen Buddhism and do what I can in the face of things I can't change, taking solace in the knowledge that it isn't my fault.

Kat --

Thank you for sharing your story!  It's very validating!

Haha, your story with your mother rings very familiar.  My mum would try to get us all into counselling because she was convinced it was us, not her.  The kicker to this is that she would never go along to any of our sessions because she was afraid we would "blame her for everything and make her out to be the bad guy"!

I do wonder if my brother bullies to feel a sense of superiority over me and try to "put me in my place", as it were.  Interestingly, my mum preferred me over him, though this was probably because a) I'm a girl and b) my more open personality made me easier to manipulate...which makes me shudder.  We were both still abused, though, so it isn't like that counted for much.

(sorry, went off on a tangent)

It is an incredibly alienating experience, I know.  You want the family that everyone else seems to have, the safe-haven family, without having to sacrifice who you are and what makes you great in order to have it.  Guess we have to find that solidarity elsewhere, don't we? 

[Candid]

Part of me wants to go back to the way it used to be where I had a sense of belonging and support, but the bigger, healthier part of me doesn't want to go back there.

I know this feeling! But I'd have to be little more than a vegetable in order to un-know what I know now. I couldn't get back no matter how much I might want to.

Illusion of belonging, maybe, but support? Never. That was never part of my FOO experience.

I think the disinterest you're feeling from them is their unconscious fear and desire to hold onto things as they were at all costs. 

I agree. My sister got her eyes partially open then promptly retreated into 'mental illness' and medications that have changed her sweet personality to someone hard and remote. She's just fine as long as she's never on her own and makes sure she never has time to think. She goes along with FOO at the expense of herSelf and her life, and I feel deeply sad about that for her sake as much as for my own.

My mother wanted us to go to family therapy so she could "fix" me and my sisters once and for all...

Oh lord!!

I said I would not make that promise.  It got me in a lot of trouble.  Going against the family system always will.  It's up to you to decide if it's worth it.

It's horrible that we have to make these huge decisions, incurring losses either way. On October 21 1991 I made my last attempt to be part of my family, and went along in the naive hope that in the presence of witnesses I would finally be heard. It was the most horrible experience of my life and I've never recovered from it. I abandoned myself and agreed to everything they wanted simply to get out of that room, and it had gone on for the better part of a day. I was worn out, had all the symptoms of shock that evening.

Next day my sister called me saying she'd sensed I wasn't happy with the outcome (good one, sis!) and I told her I'd got the impression they'd all be happier if I walked under a bus. She agreed to tell our parents I wouldn't be attending the weekly family dinners as agreed, but that didn't stop her trying to put me in the same space as them many times afterwards.

It came down to me or them. I decided I wasn't going to walk under a bus, and I've had to reaffirm that decision many times since.

I'm struggling to accept that my siblings will never really see me.  To them, I'm the "sick" one, the weak one. 

I've got the sister with her eyes screwed shut, a golden child brother who's totally taken up with his career, and another sister who likes to pretend she's me while compromising or attempting to sabotage any kind of support she thinks I might have elsewhere.

More and more I see that I'm actually the healthy one. 

The family scapegoat is always going to be the one to see the family dynamic, if anyone does, and is also known as the Truthteller.  We pay a high price for that, and we had no choice. You're right, it sucks.

Dad and I can sense (we have discussed this) that he hasn't really addressed his own trauma with our mum. 

That's precisely why those fleas keep hoppin' all over him.

I guess I can't set myself on fire to keep him warm. 

Exactly. That's emerged as a theme in this thread: the horrible no-choice choice we're forced to make.

"Grey rock" might be my only option when things get heated.

With grey rock, things can't get heated. You can still show an interest in your abusers (if you want to) while telling them almost nothing about yourself.

This piece of advice always seemed like a cop-out to me and like I have to just put up with something that's causing me harm and isn't my fault to begin with...

I certainly didn't intend that! My own no-choice choice was NC with mother, and with great reluctance I knew I'd have to stay clear of my dad as well, because they were always a package deal. My two decent siblings shrugged me off without another thought, as far as I'm aware. The third is, as she puts it, "enmeshed" with me. That seems to translate into wanting to kill me off, as if she can do some kind of a walk-in. It's creepy beyond belief, and she puts a lot of time into it.

I get the impression you have some kind of a relationship with your father, in which case NC is probably right off the cards.

[Dee]

I too had a family sabotaging my recovery.  I finally was able to see what was going on.  Since then I have kept them at a distance.  I will go to see my sister, but only in a group setting.  The same is true for my mom.  I still get upset some, but it isn't like it was before.  I feel so much better after I limited contact.  I can look back and think, "wow, that WAS really bad."  I couldn't understand why I wasn't getting better before.  Now I think "there was no way I could of recovered like that."  Though, I can see that part of my therapy was seeing how toxic my family was and having the courage to limit contact with them.

[Minnow]

Sorry for my absence!  I had exams...and then I caught the flu...eugh.

Candid, I apologise if I came off too testy in my post.  I guess it's all part of the grieving process, being angry and upset that things couldn't have been any different, or can't be any different in the present, and having to get to a point where we can accept that.  I really, truly wish I had a healthier relationship with my brother, and I also deeply sympathise with him, which is why it hurts all the more, and why my feelings around it can be a bit volatile.  You were correct in your observation that I have a relationship with my father that I would not want to give up.  That's awful that you were put into a situation where, in the process of removing an undesirable relationship, other, desired relationships were lost in the fallout.

Dee, maybe that's something I can do -- limit contact with my brother in a one-on-one setting, and try to keep it to family gatherings.  I find it interesting how I feel more anger towards my brother these days than my mother, even though she was the primary abuser in my childhood.  Maybe because I have been NC with her for some time now, my feelings towards her are less raw, whereas now, being in contact with my brother, those wounds are still being salted.  I really admire your bravery!  Breaking off from your family is so hard, no matter how toxic the relationship.

[Blueberry]

Minnow, I've been reading all this thread for the first time today. It's helped me some. Though my own FOO dynamic is somewhat different.  I'm also VLC to VVLC. Haven't always been that way. But realised I had to go that way to recover. Just wanted to let you know that you're heard.

[Candid]

Candid, I apologise if I came off too testy in my post. 

I didn't notice anything testy, much less too testy!

I really, truly wish I had a healthier relationship with my brother, and I also deeply sympathise with him, which is why it hurts all the more, and why my feelings around it can be a bit volatile. 

I know. I really do.

[BlancaLap]

I'm sorry you have that dynamic with your family. I can totally relate, my family is the reason I'm stuck in dissociation. I started des-dissociating myself and grieving about my past, but my mother used to get angry and violent at me for "making her suffer by seeing me suffer" and stuff like that, and that's the reason I came back to dissociate myself and be numb. I don't know what you can do if you still live with your parents, because I know they will not change and speaking with them is not an option. My family has an interesting way of functioning: everyone talks behind the others' backs, eveyone yell, insults and critizise the others, and yet they stick together because they have no one else to "rely on". They are always together, but they can't stand each other... they don't love each other, although they may misjudge emotional-hunger with love... I don't know what you can do, but I hope you find the answer!

[BlancaLap]

Omg, my mother wanted me to attend therapy to "fix" me to. That was so insulting for me. I'm not an object, I'm a person. You can't fix me, what I need is support, not fixing. It shows that she doesn't really care about me feeling bad, she cares about me being manipulable (did I say it right?), bearable. It really hurts.
I'm sorry you had that experience too.

[Blueberry]

My family has an interesting way of functioning: everyone talks behind the others' backs, eveyone yell, insults and critizise the others, and yet they stick together because they have no one else to "rely on". They are always together, but they can't stand each other... they don't love each other

I've just been realising today at a deeper level how bad this is in my FOO, especially talking behind others' backs. And then pretending to have a 'normal' relation with them. Tons of messages get passed on by somebody else! B1 is especially good at hurting me for other people, passing on F's messages and B2's messages or their emotions about me. "Just thought I should tell you F burst into tears" (about my NC at that time) etc. Don't ask me how I feel, how often I've cried. Actually FOO see me crying and don't care or it doesn't hit home that I'm hurting too.

However I've done plenty of Triangulating  too over the years. Not that I passed on really hurtful messages I don't think. More cautions. It's pretty common in dysfunctional family systems. I honestly didn't know any better. I never realised families could function differently. Now I know I can set a boundary and say to whoever: "Tell the person him/herself and don't involve me!" Except I don't really have any contact any more. Bit late. Oh well. At least I could use that outside FOO.