Non-aggressive abuse?

[MyselfOnline]

Thinking about my kind, generous mother, who home-schooled me and my brother, and how her genuine interest in our well-being might have affected me. I was never smacked, and on the face of it, great 'respect' was given to me.

I've been reading Pete Walker today, and I'm pretty sure my mother has traits of fawn/fight about her (nurturing so strong it controls or smothers).

I feel bad, as in pathetic and guilty for it, that I might have a form of C-PTSD that was not driven by beatings or constant put downs.

Perhaps my sense of self (this is what I am trying to grasp) was overwritten, not crushed. Subtle stuff. My anger was not allowed. I was supposed to be reasonable, grown up, clever. To have empathy. My mother approved of those things, expected them and praised me for it. I remember being enthralled, and I remember how good it felt when I succeeded in appearing to be more adult than I really was. I remember performing. Needing her 'respect'.

Does this make sense? I'm still trying to work things out, so if anyone reading this knows about non-aggressive (even well-meaning?) types of abuse, I'd like to discuss it.

[Max]

I feel bad, as in pathetic and guilty for it, that I might have a form of C-PTSD that was not driven by beatings or constant put downs.

Perhaps my sense of self (this is what I am trying to grasp) was overwritten, not crushed. Subtle stuff. My anger was not allowed. I was supposed to be reasonable, grown up, clever. To have empathy.

I can understand this. With my F it was clear and physical abuse.  Long after the physical abuse is over the damage is still there because there is a ton of unspoken messages that is abusive and damaging that I carried for decades.  Emotional abuse.  The emotional damage from interpersonal relationships, a parent who harms and especially does not provide for emotional needs of their child,  should not be underestimated.

I had similar problems to what you describe with M.  It was unclear to me why I felt so protective of her in spite of her not protecting me.  Responsible for her.  She did not physically hurt me or put me down.  When I became a mother the feelings of love were there naturally for my child. It did dawn on me then, for the first time, my parents didn't love me.  But, It is very difficult to identify something you never got and didn't know you should have.

I learned this by reading 'will I ever be good enough' by Karyl McBride.  It is about Narcissistic mothers and I would have never put my mother in that category.  But she never put her children first even to protect them.  What I learned from that book  is the emotional needs that had not been met.  That I did not get.   For me,  Love, care, affection, safety, etc...  I have read that an overly enmeshed mother (the opposite of mine) can be as damaging (even more than) depending on what it is she does.  I have also read about emotional incest which was helpful for me.

The emotional abuse is the most harming part in my opinion.  Each person's experiences are unique to them and should not be compared to someone else's.  What hurts or affects us in certain ways just does, one persons injury is not more or less then another.  Identifying and understanding is what helped me.

I don't believe any child should be expected to act Grown up or even reasonable.  I'm sorry your feeling guilt.  i know I hardly ever expressed my emotions, internalized everything, and am just now trying to identify them for what they are.  It can be confusing.

[Kizzie]

Hi GJ, it might help to have a look at the book Max recommended.  I've read it and it does capture the type of parenting you are describing, all the subtler ways we are taught to feel we are never good enough just as we are.

Way back before I knew about covert narcissism and enmeshment I thought I was crazy because I had what appeared to be the best M ever, but it was just that, the appearance and no substance.  It felt like I was "starving in a sea of plenty."    If your M pressured you to be someone she wanted you to be, then what does that say to the child you were? If you felt you had to perform where did that leave you as a distinct person, worthy of love as you were not as you were expected to be? It's a very shaky foundation on which to grow. 

Covert N behaviour does seem subtle at first but when you figure out what is going on it is anything but or at least that's what I found.

[Sienna]

Gd Davis, hi.
Does this make sense? - It does.
Triggers here.....

Im not sure, with out knowing more to the story, weather your mums abuse, was well meaning.
It sounds to me as though it was all about her needs, not yours. It sounds like she used you to serve her.

I was never smacked, and on the face of it, great 'respect' was given to me.

Doesn't matter. Apparently, the emotional pain is the most hurtful, and the effects of that last the longest, whilst bruises heal. 
With physical kinds of abuse, you are always left with emotional scars.
And emotional abuse effects the body too, like with physical trauma. its very interesting how mind and body are connected, and stress greatly effects the body.

I've been reading Pete Walker today, and I'm pretty sure my mother has traits of fawn/fight about her (nurturing so strong it controls or smothers).

Yes, this kind of behaviour you talk about your mother having towards you, would be controlling, and would be smothering, thus, you would feel controlled and smothered.

I feel bad, as in pathetic and guilty for it,

Guilt is what this kind of abuse makes a person feel. It keeps you feeling responsible of the parent, stopping you from putting yourself first, meeting your needs, and having a life of your own.
You have a form of Cptsd - probably due to many reasons, but one thing that i see has happened from your post, is your boundaries being invaded.
Your sense of self likely overlooked, ignored.
This can create fear of intimacy- fear of being engulfed. Fear of having to always be there for someone else, fear of having to be over responsible.

You said:
My anger was not allowed. - your anger is part of your *self*.
I was supposed to be reasonable, grown up, clever.
To have empathy.
My mother approved of those things,
expected them (IMO- to ok to just expect.)
praised me for it.
I remember being enthralled, and I remember how good it felt when I succeeded in appearing to be more adult than I really was.
I remember performing. Needing her 'respect'.

I know others have mentioned on here about emotional incest / Covert incest.
That came to mind first when i read your post.
The same things you talk about happened to me too. And it is normal for the child, to feel special and great when the parent praised them for being there *for them*, so it can be hard to accept that that was actually abuse.
As far as i know, its a form of control, and weather the parent simply didnt care about what they were doing, or weather they were unconsciously repeating what was done to them and they just didn't know any better, doest really matter (though it mattered to me). The effects are the same, and it is wrong.

One question i would ask you to think about, is weather your mother did any of these things for you, that you did for her?
Even if she did, you shouldn't have to parent her back. That is too much responsibility for a child / adult child.

Cptsd can come from neglect, as well as active abuse. It seems to me, that you had both.
Im so sorry that this happened to you.   

[Wife#2]

GJ - I've struggled with this same type of thing, though not quite as controlled as your situation.

I spent YEARS in therapy not even sure why I *needed* therapy. I mean, Mom wasn't very physical with me. In fact, Mom was barely present for me. And THAT was the problem as it turns out. She was an emotionally detached parent. I've teased (truth in humor?) that by the time I came along (I'm #7 of 7) she was just too tired. Too tired to discipline, too tired to talk with me, too tired to love me, too tired.

Emotional abuse is something very difficult to even wrap your mind around. The abandoned child knows that they've been abused through neglect. The SA or PA child knows there was abuse - it was physical and often left marks that could be shown to others as proof. But, emotional abuse is so subtle. It's a negation of your thoughts or feelings as legitimate. It's being proud of you as you perform for her friends in the rehearsed dog-and-pony show of how *whatever* you are and what a good mother SHE is to have produced you!

Through that type of emotional abuse, you learn that YOU aren't good enough, but you also learn how to play to others' expectations of you. This feels false, but you're getting praise. Praise feels like love when you haven't got the genuine thing. So, you convince yourself you are being loved. Then, your world falls apart if you simply fail to elicit praise. Why are you not lovable? Because you haven't perfectly performed? So, now you must strive to perform even more and even better to earn that praise (love) again!

And not a hand was ever raised against you. In fact, loving words were part of your experience! Either to build you up so that you would more willingly perform for her or to reward you when you DID perform to expectations. It's the serpent convincing Eve that the Apple was just an ordinary fruit and that she could be like GOD if she would only take a bite. No harm is apparent until the damage is already done. It's evil dressed as loving concern.

This can be so much harder to detect because there are no scars, no visible wounds, just (bad word, can't think of better) a broken psyche and emotional turmoil.

Think over your life. Was your mother proud that you were such a healthy person? Are you healthy now? Was your mother proud that you had a big vocabulary? Do you use that large vocabulary now? Do you still value what you were taught to value as a child? Or do you find yourself rebelling against a lot of it? I do believe that the rebellion is your healthy core self defying the covert abuse you suffered. Look at what repels you now. For me, it was fake hugs with much to-do about them. It was conversations about family that I *KNOW* she hasn't seen in months/years as if they talked last week. It was the feeling as I knocked on her apartment door that I had better get performance mode in place before she answered. You know what it was that really bothered you, even if you never felt safe saying anything before. What is it that you will do because you know it's expected, but that secretly makes your skin crawl. THOSE are the false things, the things you do for obligation or guilt, but that are not genuinely you.

[MyselfOnline]

Thanks for such deep responses. After three years of counselling, I'm finally ready to talk. A lot sounds familiar, and has led to recent re-diagnosis as C-PTSD.

I have heard (from she herself) that my mother dreaded having me, her eldest child. She studied every book she could find to work out how a child could be different to my cousin, whom she watched through so many screaming tantrums she was terrified of having to cope with it herself. I believe, or infer, that by the time I arrived she was an 'expert' in child rearing in all cultures. I think she really did love and care, but her need for a calm and manageable baby was very strong.

I don't have too many bed memories of early childhood, she was very present and we did lots fun and stimulating things, she read me stories all the time (fantastic books) and we were always going places and seeing stuff. I loved it. She chose to home educate. Very critical of the 'establishment.'

@Max:
Enmeshed, yes. Very hard to leave parental umbrella. I relayed her intellectual opinions and judgements of society for years as if they were my own. I'm not narcissistic, I don't believe, but in terms of intellectual argument and alternative opinion preaching I have been aggressive and scary. Also, Emotional Incest, I hadn't heard the term. After she broke up with my dad, I was her confidant. For a long time. By the time I was 16 she was fully depressed. Not much left for me by that time. My dad too though, lived out his regrettably lost teens through me when I was old enough. I had to be his mate.

@Kizzie, that term, 'Covert Narcissism', is helpful. My mum was such an utterly fantastic mother, much better than all the rest. Ha. I thought.

@Sienna, thanks especially for this validating breakdown of everything I said. Reassureing. 'Boundaries being invaded' says a lot. As my mother was a very alternative intellectual and a classic '70s feminist, me being a boy carried it's own trials in her mind, it's own unique schooling needs. There was a well-meaning seed in her approach (guys DO need guidance to grow grow into well rounded adults) but her wish for me not to be 'like other men' wasn't helpful. She scapegoated my dad, that's for sure. Told me things I shouldn't know.

@Wife2, I think you hit the nail on the head. My mother was proud when I was a better intellectual. I can't help but repeat it (no less because, after all, learnedness IS admired generally) but my 'rebellion' may have been through dropping out, being over-emotional and anti-intellectual in my behaviour, impulsive, not thinking things through, gravitating toward visceral art, stuff like that. Trying to let out disallowed feelings.

[Sienna]

You are welcome, Im really glad that what I wrote was of help to you.
(If you don't mind me saying..) your situation does sound like covert incest to me.

She scapegoated my dad, that's for sure. Told me things I shouldn't know.

Yes, classic.
Interesting that she wanted you to be...what did you say? ...different from other men. I wonder in what way. You have had a lot of expectation placed upon you, which i don't think is fair at all.

Wife2, Struck a chord with me when you mentioned having to prepare for your parent coming over. I find it hard to see my dad in general- but its hard in a different way when I'm not in a good place. I feel ignored listening to his problems, and just don't have the energy to be there for him.
I find it hard - exhausting, to see others when I'm in a bad place . I feel ..not right inside. Part of that i realise is that i cant let them see me, and many times, others don't notice that somethings wrong (in me). Perhaps my dad being this way (as well as the invalidation from my mother for having feelings), has resulted in me being this way, and isolating when things are hard. Thanks.

[MyselfOnline]

Interesting that she wanted you to be...what did you say? ...different from other men. I wonder in what way.

Yes, that was always rather hard to fit into, nothing in certain terms but implied, plenty of stories about men who were inconsiderate, oafish, including seemingly respectable men who were doctors or teachers or whatever. Sexual desire wrapped up in that, somewhere. I always had the impression there was something innately dim and uncouth about manhood, but 'I don't mean you' or 'You're not like that' supposedly was to reassure me. I don't even  know if she fully understands it herself, her idea that men don't respect women like they (I wrote 'they', I mean 'we') should. It certainly changed how I behaved. In adolescence, I actually felt that girls would hate me if I admitted to feeling anything sexual. That took some getting over.