How this stuff becomes 'normalized' and why it's hard to 'fix' ** TRIGGER ALERT

[Wife#2]

I've thought a lot about this. I've written several answers, only to delete them and start over. This is such a complex situation, it's hard to answer in any simple formula of how this aberrant behavior becomes normalized in a society.

I thought I was going to be all smart and explain how this happens. I can't. I have some ideas, mostly to do with people choosing to remove themselves from any community to which they may have to explain their behavior. Now, we're at a place where dysfunction is rampant and it feels like the patients are running the asylum.

All of the systems that were supposed to help when a person or family or community was getting out of control are all overwhelmed. Many now delude themselves that they are connected (being on Facebook is NOT the same as being in touch) and that they are accountable (but swear that there's no harm being done if it isn't against the law) and that society is fine. It isn't, and the growing population of this necessary website is proof!

It's normalized only by the fact that so many families are suffering in these mentally/physically/emotionally unhealthy situations. It's almost impossible to fix because this huge number of families don't want to admit that they are unhealthy. It's so much easier to blame the victim and pretend that they (the dysfunctional and/or abusive family members) are the new normal.

The tipping point has been reached, I think. Society at large has let go of the steering wheel and yet is screaming about the bus not staying on the road. Too many folks are more concerned about how many likes they get on their Facebook posts and not enough about why the nice little kid next door doesn't play in the yard anymore. Or why the Mom shouts at the kid to come inside if she sees you even looking in the direction of their house? Or why you can't even remember the last time you talked with any neighbor or heard him or her laugh?

Too many people believe that their rights extend to telling anyone who doesn't like what they're doing to go <things that would get edited if I typed them> themselves. These folks believe that just by being an adult, they are no longer answerable to ANYONE. There is no community to hold them accountable. Unless they GET CAUGHT violating a law, everyone else can shut up. It is in this type of society that predators thrive and victims remain silent, even when free of their attacker. Nobody cares, so why report? Nothing will be done, so why bother?

While there is no simple fix for society and no way to encourage those who don't reach out, I count this website as a critically important place for community, validation and healing. Here, because of the anonymity, we are brave enough to speak our truth. We are strong enough to support each other. We are powerful enough to face our monsters, sometimes to even slay some dragons (not literally folks, but to render them powerless over us anymore). Here we can be real. For many of us, even more here than in real life. Because in real life, we're still dealing with that cumbersome society at large that generally doesn't believe us or even if they do are too self-absorbed to care.

[Sienna]

Oh Wife2, ...Well said. Well said. I completely agree.
All of it makes me so mad and is so triggering to me.
Perhaps it comes from being blamed despite being the one who was abused.
And it makes sense - Pete Walker, saying that peoples *mental health* problems, stem from Cptsd.
Its like...wheres the line? ie. you cant tell me how to treat MY child...
wheres the line?
Ugh.

[Wife#2]

HUGS! Sienna, you are going through so much right now. I wish I had answers for you, especially given that you are TRYING to use proper channels in the system and keep getting pushed back down. It is fundamentally unfair.

I'd be so tempted to ask your caseworker if she would recommend you move back with your father knowing he mistreated you? (Mistreated because saying abused makes people either want proof or to wonder that you didn't go after them legally). Would SHE move back with someone who had hurt her repeatedly? How would SHE feel about someone who recommended she do so, then treated her as uncooperative for NOT complying. That is exactly what she's doing with you.

I wish those questionnaires asked about blood relatives, close relatives and safe relatives. There are differences between those groups. That way, you could make it clear that because Father is a blood relative and a close relative doesn't make him a safe relative.

HUGS. I hope something good happens quickly enough that you're not forced into a bad situation. I've had that happen and wouldn't wish it on anyone.

[radical]

I agree, Wife#2

There are no easy answers, but it does feel that things are getting worse.  In times of great uncertainty and fear those with certitude are in the ascendancy.  Unfortunately, Imho, that absolute certainty is inevitably BS and a strong red-flag to a dangerous person or group.

People seem more willing to align themselves with abusers because abusers have the "strength" of cruelty and absence of conscience. More and more, it feels like the option is to be crushed by those stampeding in fear towards those who promise the earth.  Those left behind in the rush are justified as 'acceptable collateral damage'.

[woodsgnome]

So true, all of what you said, Wife#2...and so frustrating.

As if any of us can meaningfully deal with our own torments, you rightly point out the added difficulty of doing so in societies where the 'normal' is seriously out of balance. So on top of our own struggles to make sense of our own senseless pain, there's the innocuous messages to anyone/everyone to get yours, no matter the cost to a fellow human. It's almost expected, and accepted as 'the norm'; like those Black Friday fights for ... merchandise, and the promise you will find perfect happiness only when you get it. 

Priceless values are replaced with price tags, and that's all that matters; that's the only message, it seems. The task of bucking against what's considered so ordinary adds more burden to the already sour prospect of digging out of the real issues that tug at our heartstrings.

Sadly, as you suggest, there really don't seem to be answers, either. 

[Wife#2]

 'acceptable collateral damage'. - Oh, how I hate that term. It can only be deployed by those who know nobody actually counted AMONG the collateral. If you know people in that group, they are PEOPLE. HUMAN BEINGS.

It's sad how easily some folks can lose track of that fact. I do think you are right in the leader/follower assessment, too.

One solution won't be popular and thus will fail at the gate. It's a return to accountability. Accountability to ourselves for how we choose to conduct ourselves. Accountability to our fellow man (and woman) for how we treat them. Accountability to our community as a whole. When we can be held accountable, we behave better.

It's a 'Lord of the Flies' world we live in now. The grownups can't be found, so the boys are serving each other up as appetizers, hoping they won't get eaten or beaten next. Now that the worst has been allowed, and called normal, how do we ever get back to healthy? How do we apologize to our fellow travelers who we know we did wrong? How do we put the spirits back into Pandora's box?

A lot of fuss was made about books in our high school years. Many were hard to read, I'll admit. But 'Lord of the Flies' was one of the worst, because it didn't even take very long for the hierarchy to form and for those on the bottom to be victimized. In the absence of accountability.....

[sanmagic7]

accountability - good one.  how can there be any accountability when everyone throws out ideas, opinions, criticisms, judgments, and images that are meant to hurt and/or shock when they're invisible?  they hide behind false names and anonymity on what is called the world wide web (web, indeed!  a spider's nest) with no threat of punishment, shunning, or communal reprimand.  banned from one site, they simply move to another, ad nauseum.  what's happened to morals, decency, helpfulness and kindness?

along with the lack of accountability is a lack of respect.  bullying has become rampant.  hurtful words and phrases have come out of a closet where they lay hidden (just a bit) for awhile.  behaviors that would once be called murder are now being normalized, justified, minimized, denied, and swept under the rug.  what are the children learning when they see and hear this (i was going to say all around them, but i'm afraid they don't look around them anymore) on their phones.  mystery and magic and all things to be discovered and worked for are nearly a puff of smoke now.  instant, more, bigger, faster, grander, 'better', more expensive are the goals of the day.  you don't like the way someone looks at you?  get an assault rifle and get rid of them - and everyone like them.

it's definitely a 'lord of the flies' reality in this world.  i recently heard that more than half the people get their news from facebook.  and, the newest trend is spreading false news as a way to show how gullible people are.  the problem is, people have believed false news forever.  how many people still believe that actors who play characters like doctors, etc. are exactly that in real life?  too many people have always had a difficult time knowing the difference between reality and fantasy.  and the beat goes on . . .

wife2, you nailed it with this.  it's disgusting, but those numbers are rapidly rising.  all we can do is be good to ourselves and others in our own little world.  whatever else is out there will do their own thing, and i, for one, cannot fight it.  i did write a book about this, it's being reviewed for possible publishing.  it's the best i can do.  i would go to north dakota if i could.  i would demonstrate with 'black lives matter' if i could.  i would rally against fracking and pipelines that are assaulting our earth if i could.  i would hand out flowers to soldiers if i could.  i would gather in and embrace every hurting soul in the voluminous skirts of my earth mother being if i could, protecting all the children if i could. 

if i only could.

[Sienna]

Wife2, i was not expecting what you wrote at all. Thank you so much for your kind reply and wishes, they mean an awful lot.

Do you mind if i ask you what you mean, when you say that I'm trying to use proper channels in the system?
Thank you for giving me your insight to this ..situation I'm in. Sometimes its hard to see it.
It is strange that she *might* agree that we shouldnt go back to our X's, but doesnt seem to realise that most times, we get into those sorts of relationships because of our parenting.
She really doesnt know my story. For all i know, she could think that the therapy for issues to do with family (is all i said), is not to do with my dad.
But i wish she could think differently, and i wish so much that this service- the staff, had been educated on Cptsd.
They don't understand a lot of things ive come to understand, and I'm wondering if the staff are drawn to this kind of job for their own personal reasons, to do with their history - need to revisit their past, or to gain power over service users.
I thought there would be more understanding from a service like this, but its like the parents blaming again, and the people at the centre being flying monkeys for my narc X, seeing me as bad for simply going no contact.

Im so sorry to hear that you were in a bad situation. I really hope it doesnt go that way, and I'm just so sorry it happened to you.
I cant thank you for your support, and Im sorry that this stuff about society and the world is so depressing. It is, and its hard being awake. 

[tea-the-artist]

not much energy but to say I agree completely Wife#2.

[Wife#2]

Wife2, i was not expecting what you wrote at all. Thank you so much for your kind reply and wishes, they mean an awful lot.

Do you mind if i ask you what you mean, when you say that I'm trying to use proper channels in the system?
Thank you for giving me your insight to this ..situation I'm in. Sometimes its hard to see it.
It is strange that she *might* agree that we shouldnt go back to our X's, but doesnt seem to realise that most times, we get into those sorts of relationships because of our parenting.
She really doesnt know my story. For all i know, she could think that the therapy for issues to do with family (is all i said), is not to do with my dad.
But i wish she could think differently, and i wish so much that this service- the staff, had been educated on Cptsd.
They don't understand a lot of things ive come to understand, and I'm wondering if the staff are drawn to this kind of job for their own personal reasons, to do with their history - need to revisit their past, or to gain power over service users.
I thought there would be more understanding from a service like this, but its like the parents blaming again, and the people at the centre being flying monkeys for my narc X, seeing me as bad for simply going no contact.

Im so sorry to hear that you were in a bad situation. I really hope it doesnt go that way, and I'm just so sorry it happened to you.
I cant thank you for your support, and Im sorry that this stuff about society and the world is so depressing. It is, and its hard being awake. 

Sienna,
I said you were trying to use proper channels because you went to the shelter, you are trying to figure out a way to work and get your own place - a SAFE place. You got away from one unhealthy man (Dad), landed with another (exbf) and escaped AGAIN! Yet, when you try to talk to the 'powers-that-be' for what would REALLY help, they think you unreasonable or worse, petty. Only because you really don't choose to trash-talk your father in public the way it would take to make her understand.

Thank you for your kindness. I did have a rough go of it for a couple of years, sofa surfing, renting a child's room from her mother (long story, very triggering thanks to the mother), finally finding a job and an apartment and a roommate - all stable! From there, I was able to begin my launch to self-sustainability. It took nearly my whole 20's to get it right, but I did. I proved that one can overcome incredible odds, even in societally recognizable ways. I hope that for you as well. Facing homelessness, or a bad choice because it's the best of the choices presented (that awful mother), is something I'd pray anyone else can avoid.

[Sienna]

Hey Wife2, thanks for explaining what you meant.

That makes a lot of sense. I do think others would be shocked and not believe me if they knew the truth, because i never talk about it. But then again, if i did talk about it, they might dismiss and not believe etc.
It is crazy. She said its up to you what you do when you leave here, but they don't get that for some, this stuff goes way back which is why we ended up with a partner like that..
they are doing a course in how to spot different kinds of abuse, but they don't understand that even if a person like myself, doesnt have parents that are forcing you to go back to your X, they could still be ..disfuncitonal etc.

It was nice that you shared with me that you had a hard time too. It sounds awful.
Its so great that you managed to eventually get sorted, and i do hope you are happy with your living arrangements etc. now.

[Wife#2]

Sienna,

I don't know if this will help, but I will tell you about this part: *** Possible triggers below, adult child living with uNarc parent ***

When I was forced by financial problems to move back in with my mother, for a fourth time, I made myself a vow. Then, I said it out loud. Then, I began the work to put it into action. I told her, 'Never again, Mom. The next time I move out, it will be into my own home. I'll need some help from you. If I'm to save the kind of money I need for a down payment, I can only do a token rent. I'll help around the house (she still had a maid, so this wasn't too risky an offer), but my primary objective will be to get a  house.'

Of course, she invalidated with her, 'That's nice, dear' with a tone of condescension. I ignored it. She didn't have to believe in me for me to make this happen. I told her my goal was to be out by my 30th birthday.

I scrimped, I saved, I tolerated what I knew living with Mom would be like. It took until my 31st birthday, but I bought a house by myself. I stayed at a job I hated so I'd have job stability. I lived with Mom so I'd have residential stability. I made the conscious decision that the goal would be worth the pain. And, I have to admit that having my brother in town, cracking me up when he could see me hurting from it all, giving me an escape pad (I ate and/or hung out with him a LOT to get away), helped make it all possible.

On my 31st birthday, I spent the first night in the home I still occupy. My brother shared it with me until his death. My mother is too proud to share it with me, so let her suffering be on her head. My husband and I raised his kids and are raising our son there. Would I go through it all again? Sure! It was hard, therapy was required, but I made it to this place. I'm getting healthier and becoming a better wife and mother all the time. I'm becoming a better me. When I doubt myself, I can look back on that struggle and this payoff and realize I am capable. And, once I put my mind to something, I can be a force to be reckoned with when I allow it.

I honestly didn't know if I'd make it happen. When my 30th birthday came and went, I did doubt. I wanted out of Mom's place SO bad! But, I stuck to my plan.

I'm certainly not telling you, or anyone else, to subject themselves to damaging parents if it can be avoided. I AM saying that, if one goes in with a set agenda (buy home instead of rent, cleaning up credit, saving money for down payment, researching available market so I know what I'm getting into, go back to college) and is willing to 'use' the parent to get to that goal, and has a good therapist, which I did, it can be worth it.

Sienna, maybe that is how you survive moving back with Dad? It may be too dangerous for you, I don't know. But, you know more this time. Your eyes are more open this time. It might be survivable this time. Or, you can tell me I don't know what I'm talking about and to lay off. That's really fine, too!

[Sienna]

Wife2,
Thank you for sharing your story with me.
It sounds like you survived a really hard time, and worked really hard, and I'm glad a place of your own came out of it in the end.

I stayed at my dads when my X broke up with me over and over..and I spent christmases with him. Only, last year, i realised that i really didnt have anything to feel guilty about- when i decided to finally have christmas with my partner (now X), as i started with my Ts help, to see through my dads behaviour.

So, i could go back to his. I could have christmas at his.
I guess, i don't want to, and i realised i don't have to anymore. and No 2...with these fears that came up when i was retraumatised year before last, I'm afraid he will find out- he definitely will, if i can't sleep upstairs on my own when he's out, and if i cant go upstairs when he's out. I cant stand him locking the doors when he goes out in the evenings, i feel trapped.
and i can't sleep with the light off. Im more wary of him due to those things coming up, and with what T thinks and what we are talking about.

Basically, moving in with him is still an option i suppose. and it might be more comfortable (not emotionally) than being totally homeless. I just don't like either of the options.
And he was weird about me moving away. I moved slowly in with my partner  - now x, and he seemed to accept it more then. But he couldnt let me live my own life as he needed me there to offload to. So sure, I'm worried that if i go back there, he would pressure me to stay in my home town.
He made it clear that he wouldnt help me to move in the past, but said when i came to the refuge that he would help me sort out my place once i have one.

I dont want to leave my T either. Been seeing her for a year and a bit.
Being awake makes it harder for me. Better in a way, but much harder in another way, as i know that his behaviour is wrong and its scary to see it happening, and to be alone in everything.

Im going to talk to my T about all of this. Thank you so much for your suggestions and sharing your experience.