Realistic expectations from healthy friendships

[Flutterbye]

Well, I started a friendship group. I'm very isolated & friendless, so decided to do something about that! After lots of trial & error with trying to meet new people I felt strong enough to try starting my own group.

I am amazed that I've met some nice people. Harmless, pleasant people, I can just enjoy their company for a meal. And others who I really, really like & feel quite compatible with. I just can't wait to see them again!

So that's nice. What I'm struggling with is I feel I don't have much information to go on. Like, people have turned up more than once so I assume they like me well enough or at least like the group well enough. And some people I've reached out to & let them know I like them, they have let me know they are interested in pursuing a friendship with me (I think) & the feeling is mutual.

Thing is, I'm so excited and want to see them, am bursting with enthusiasm! But it feels one-sided. I don't want to be needy & demanding, scare people off. I'd love some more interest, reassurance, expressions of enthusiasm from the group members. It is organised online so there is plenty of room online to say things to each other, just little things like, 'Had a great time' and so on. There is a little of that but I usually need to initiate (I guess that's my job given that I run the group!). Trouble is I'm in another friendship group & there is all this online chatter about how awesome a time people have, it's very warm & enthusiastic. Maybe I see that as perfect & ideal & my group as inferior?

I'm trying to be reasonable rather than panicking into the conclusion that "nobody likes me!" & feel plagued with shame. I know there are good reasons for how my group is going so far...
- people are busy with employment, family, social plans & other friends; you can't be everyone's top priority
- it's a very small group that is quite new
- healthy friendships can take time to build trust & rapport, some people may need to meet me & the group a few times before they can relax
- not all personalities are bursting with enthusiasm that they express readily (like me!! I'm so anxious, even hyper-vigilant, but the upside to being a somewhat nervous personality is that if I like something I'm bursting with enthusiasm & encouragement & let people know!); some people are calm & steady and don't need to express how much they're  enjoying something
- it takes time, healthy friendships take time, repetition, lots of common interests to develop.

the above list is all guesswork!!! (as I'm most expereinced in dysfunctional/abusive relationships)

I would love to hear if anyone is managing to have a healthy friendship, working on these kinds of goals or figured out some realistic expectations about healthy friendships. 

[mourningdove]

Wow - that's great that you made a friendship group!  How wonderful. I think you deserve so much credit.

[Dutch Uncle]

What a great initiative!  And how wonderful that you're off with a good start. 

Personally I'm on the other end at the moment, still in the process of realizing how few good friends I have (had) that also stick around during the bad times and feeling neglected. (Abandonment issues? Well, if they really abandon me, it's not my issue I guess  , but I digress.)

I like your post and initiative a lot, and your upbeat attitude and excitement and enthusiasm. 

I think you touch on a lot of good points, and especially these resonate with me as sound observations/experiences:

I'd love some more interest, reassurance, expressions of enthusiasm from the group members. It is organised online so there is plenty of room online to say things to each other, just little things like, 'Had a great time' and so on. There is a little of that but I usually need to initiate (I guess that's my job given that I run the group!).

Yes, "small talk" like that isn't small talk at all, is it?
I don't think it's so much it's your "job" to do it, it's probably more that you want to give what you want to receive? Reciprocity? Which is an excellent motivation to do just that, IMHO.

I'm trying to be reasonable rather than panicking into the conclusion that "nobody likes me!" & feel plagued with shame. I know there are good reasons for how my group is going so far...

- healthy friendships can take time to build trust & rapport, some people may need to meet me & the group a few times before they can relax

- it takes time, healthy friendships take time, repetition, lots of common interests to develop.

I think these are the two most important. Over time probably people will 'drop out', either because of different interests and/or a different communication style. And others might join?

I wish you well with your new friends, and a 'tip of the hat' to you. 

[radical]

Flutterbye, I'm in awe.
I hope to have this kind of courage one day.

A couple of things I've learned, particularly about groups.  Sometimes they work, sometimes they don't.  I suspect, more often the latter.  Being Superperson may hold a group together, but only superficially.  I've known groups to disintegrate pretty quickly when the core member is away, or leaves.  Don't be that person, don't knock yourself out and make a huge effort when others aren't.  Do what you want to do, what feels comfortable and makes you happy and leave others to pick up their end of the string if they want to. There needs to be more than one person with energy and enthusiasm.  If it doesn't happen, it may be that it isn't the right mix or the right time, or whatever, and maybe you can keep a door open for a later date or make one or two friends at some level of friendship.

In the meantime, people are coming back, and as you say, relationsips take time.  I've been in a lot of abusive relationships and what they all had in common was that they didn't take time.  There was far too much quasi-intimacy and quasi-attachment far too fast.  I'm finding making friends to be a painfully slow process but I'm kind of grateful, though it feels lonely, because I see things going too fast to be a red flag nowadays.  I recognise that dysfunctional relationships have skewed my expecations and my ability to get to know people at a normal pace without feeling that I'm doing something wrong.  I have to be careful not to over-expose too early and pace things carefully, and in the process, not go over every detail after every encounter fearing I've messed up all the time.  Awkwardness is normal.  I'm shy and so are other people.  It's not all or nothing and there are different kinds of friends, casual, blue -moonish friends right up to BFF and everything in the middle.

Another biggie, for me, is not taking things too personally.  You don't know what is going on in other people's heads and lives and more often than not, it has nothing to do with you.  Also I need to remember that making friends involves reaching out to a lot of people over a long period of time.  Most attempts don't go anywhere, so don't overinvest in outcomes, try and enjoy and become more confident in the process.  That is a really hard one for me.

I've pulled out of long-term dysfunctional relationships at the same time as I called out bullying which overlapped two major groups in my life, and it's left a painful vaccuum.  but I'm determined that it is better to go the healthy way than to settle for instant, inadequate gratification. It was my insecurities and lack of self-love and that got me into messed-up relationships.  Now, I'm determined to work on myself because I can't go back to the life I was living.  It was destroying me, allowing myself to be used and abused.  I so wish I'd learned this sooner.

I really hope you are congratulating yourself for your courage and intitiative, and being a kind friend to yourself. 

[steadybowl]

I've been in a lot of abusive relationships and what they all had in common was that they didn't take time.  There was far too much quasi-intimacy and quasi-attachment far too fast.  I'm finding making friends to be a painfully slow process but I'm kind of grateful, though it feels lonely, because I see things going too fast to be a red flag nowadays.

radical,
I completely identify with this statement.  I so appreciate this and all the wisdom you've shared here.  It's hard to hear that you have learned this the hard way.  I congratulate all your bold self loving and removing yourself from those situations!

flutterbye, aside from echoing the wisdom shared above, I'd also like to add that my therapist has given me the homework of seeking out "emotionally generous people."  These are the kind of people that smile when they see you, reach out a hand to include someone on the outside, give compliments freely, and are basically warm fuzzy and welcoming most of the time.  I am a little too good at excusing the behavior of people who are kind of cold fish.  Although they may also be lovely folks to know and have many redeeming qualities, that is not what I am looking for at this stage, I am a little too easily drawn into all kinds of not-so-great-for-me responses when faced with people who don't give out much.

I'm actively looking for generous actions and trying to focus my energy and attention on those people.  I have learned a lot just changing my focus to look at actions.  radical's focus on the "immediate quasi-intimacy" as a red flag is another great way to focus on behavior rather than falling in with the folks who feel familiar to me (sometimes for all the wrong FOO reasons!)

take care all,
steadybowl

[radical]

Hi Flutterbye,

I'm still in awe.  Especially since I see you have done exposure therapy ,including, (God-forbid) proactive dating!

I had fallen passively into relationships all my life.  Seeking out who and what I wanted for myself, rather than just being claimed by who wanted me and being grateful that anyone did....well you can guess how that turned out!  Also, as Steadybowl says, what is familiar for me is unhealthy, not just from childhood, now I've now had five decades of reinforcing childhood dysfunction. 

I guess people can go for their whole lives being disrespected and abused, and I should be grateful that finally my whole being screamed out "NO MORE ABUSE OF ANY KIND". 

Depression is holding me back at the moment, and I'm looking into a radical treatment for it, which may mean leaving this country for a while.  Hard with my social anxiety disorder.  But like you say, rock bottom has it's advantages.  When I get back, I intend to go all-out.

I admire the example you are setting, and the tremendous courage and strength that I know it takes to do something like this.  I hope you keep us updated on your progress.

[steadybowl]

I'm actively looking too. And actively looking for healthy role models, people who have grace & confidence as they go about their social interactions. It's taking a lot of looking, much persistence & dead-ends but I am finding them. Imo these are the cool people, somewhat rare & in demand. Just 'cos I find them doesn't mean we will be close friends, may be that I just get to spend time with them in a group so I'm grateful for that. It's nice to have them in the mix, kinda takes the pressure off me, their energy is so warm & strong.

I have to make an effort to be calm myself. Feeling desperate or just impatient, quickly comes across and is off-putting.

Flutterbye, what you are saying makes a lot of sense to me.  Yes, it is so great to focus on finding those sorts of empathetic and gracious people and to have that kind of warm and strong energy nearby.  It is hard for me not to want to crawl into the lap of someone like that (ooooooops!)  But I'm trying to be just aware and accepting of those feelings without acting on them.

I also hear your worry about not wanting to send off desperate vibes.  I so understasnd that.  I have to tread carefully with this impulse of mine, so as not to  tip into self-hatred, vicious self-policing, catastrophizing.  And yet of course I want to attend to my behavior too.  Sigh....

Step by step we're moving in the right direction.   

take care,
steadybowl

[Flutterbye]

It is hard for me not to want to crawl into the lap of someone like that (ooooooops!)  But I'm trying to be just aware and accepting of those feelings without acting on them

steadybowl, I laughed out loud when I read this!! not because it's a funny or unserious topic, because this describes me so well! thank you for making me laugh.

I also hear your worry about not wanting to send off desperate vibes.  I so understand that.  I have to tread carefully with this impulse of mine, so as not to  tip into self-hatred, vicious self-policing, catastrophizing.  And yet of course I want to attend to my behavior too.

yes, thanks for sharing. With my friendship group, with my 'fledgling' new friends, I reached out to quite a few people, fearful that it was too much too soon or too intense & they'd cut me loose. Their responses I am finding totally unpredictable! Some seem relieved and pleased that I've reached out to them, some seem impatient that I'm moving too slow, some seem uncertain. All of these surprised me and are pretty much the opposite of what I expected! So at this point, I've reached the attitude that right now,
1. Not everybody automatically hates me or find me off-putting & desperate
2. Reaching out to people is not that big a deal, you win some you lose some, I can handle the rejection/ambiguity/acceptance better than I thought now that I've had some practice. Repetition is helping
3. I can't predict how people respond to me, it's all so complex. My prediction that I'll be rejected/abandoned by 100% of new people I like & want to pursue a friendship with is not accurate! it's just kinda this unknown. The main thing is to actually stick to it as a long (and I mean long!) term goal especially in between when I see people at the get togethers I've organised, or get online communications, & I feel frustrated like nothing is happening & I've reached another dead-end.
4. It's ok with me if I reach out to people. I don't feel frustrated & resentful & vengeful when I don't get the response I want as fast as I want because it doesn't feel like I'm just setting myself up for another fawn/n-abuse dynamic. Hard to put into words, just don't feel so intense about it all, doesn't feel so high-stakes & energy-exhausting to just reach out a little to these 'fledgling' friends.

Well that's how I feel at the moment. For some brief moments I actually feel proud that I'm doing this now compared to what I was doing a year ago to try to address my social isolation & build healthy connections to people.

To all on this thread thanks so much for listening & replying, it really means a lot to me. 

This weekend I'm contemplating actually sending a new friend an SMS - wow that's a big step for me!! huge!! I think I'm ready, I think I can handle this.

[featherfalling]

Everyone is giving you good advice, I just wanted to add my congratulations on your achievement!  Starting a friendship group, wow!   I can barely manage to go to something like that!  I don't really have any advice for you, just keep on being your amazing self and I'm sure people will see that and like you.

[Flutterbye]

featherfalling, that's so kind of you! I found your words so encouraging, thanks a bunch 
I agree it's so important to stick to my goals, keep being consistent in my actions. can be hard when there isn't positive reinforcement coming in frequently, feels a bit like I'm stabbing aimlessly in the dark, on the other hand, I'm sure I'm making some kind of progress. Slowly, slowly!

[radical]

<i>It really seems like the only people interested in spending time with me are N-abusers. Normal people have better company to keep,..</i>

I know exactly what you are saying.  I put myself out there big time, in a different way, but with exactly the same result.  Truth is, it was a disaster I'm still dealing with. It was severe narc abuse that led me to OOTF and then here.

Most healthy people do already have a network of friends.  They also, wisely, go slow.  It's not obvious they even like us.  So we please, appease and give more and in doing so, put ourselves one-down - well, I do.

I'm boring, I'm not goal-oriented or interesting to talk to, I'm usually recovering at any given second from one fright or threat or another & really just have that to talk about but rather than dump that on people I don't have much else to say.. I'm not really goal oriented or people oriented. I've overcome my social anxiety, social isolation & spent a lot of time with a lot of new people.. only to discover this.....

No.  Just no.  If it's true of you, it's true of me.  I feel this too.  Fact is, it's not true of either of us.  I don't know what the answer is, but I know this is not true and it took you writing it to make that clear to me.

I know some deeply boring, obnoxious and downright offensive people who have friends.  They expect to.  They don't over-think or make much effort.  They expect to be accepted despite not even being particularly likeable.

....but it's not fair when people are coming at the situation with that expectation & I'm coming at it with wanting to ultimately build a replacement family, like, really good friends! That's just not an even playing field.

Even out the playing field.  Put less in.  Care less.  Care at the same rate others care.  I know it's not your nature, it's not mine either.  I don't know what to do about this situation  (yours or mine), but here is something I've learned:  Ask others for help with the group, or to borrow something, share a problem and ask for advice.  Let other people give to you.  It is really hard for me, but the relationships which have progressed for me have done so because I've asked and accepted.  Apparently people value what they invest in.  Apparently, that's partly why we end up valuing others so much more than they value us - we invest - ie we give.  Also maybe we are blind to others trying in their own way to give to us and are primed to respond to takers.  Dunno, just a theory.  I've had to take my T's advice on this one.  It feels alien and unnatural.  But I can't argue with the results.

I don't need to meet you in person to know you are a good, higly evolved person. Sensitive, wise, kind, interesting.  What you have done with this group is freaking amazing.  Don't you dare put yourself down.  It doesn't matter so much how you choose to play this from now: drop it, notch it down, ask others to be co-organisers, whatever.  Doesn't change the fact that what you did was and is awesome.  Doesn't change the tremendous courage it took or the learning you will take out of it.  It was worth it. You Showed Up!

There are some great threads on the "working on ourselves" part of OOTF on this topic.

Gotta run.

Thank you so much for sharing this experience. It has helped me a lot.  I hope you will come to see it as a great success, even if not the success you were looking for, if that makes sense.

[Flutterbye]

  Care less.

this requires taking valium whereas I don't take any medication. I have found to 'care less' whilst running a friendship group is a physiological impossibility for me and an unfair expectation of myself, the evidence is in.

Ask others for help with the group, or to borrow something, share a problem and ask for advice.  Let other people give to you.

I have found this to be a myth. For some reason it was often the first piece of advice people responded with, that surprised me as asking for help was my first strategies and I'd already tried it several times. I was looking for advice as to what to do once everybody had already turned your requests for help down. I needed help and asked for it, many times. The results were variously: it fell on deaf ears; people messed me around & never helped (behaviour/action) after saying they would (words), it alienated people & they left never to return. Overall the result was: nobody helped me. Like, nada. I concluded that people dislike being asked to help, it makes people feel uncomfy or guilty so they either run or mess you around. I found imo more realistic advice on an org forum that advised orgs to not ask for/expect help as the vast majority of participants want to be carried. I found that to be 100% so. To cope with the stress of being messed around with empty promises of help, I did some research on, 'why people say yes when they mean no,' (think I posted it in this forum, can't recall).

[radical]

When I responded (above) I was very depressed about my own situation.  I've slumped into clinical depression.  I wished I could have deleted it because it had that brittle, faux positvity.  I wasn't feeling positive about the whole making friends thing in my own life.  I'm sorry.

I have found that asking for help in small ways has deepened by remaining relationships, but I had to get past wanting to withdraw requests a couple of times because the people involved agreed but communicated unwillingness.  Also I had to repeat requests.  It hurt that I felt I meant so little  And I felt as guilty and unworthy as *.   I had to force myself to not say -"it's okay, don't worry about it".  I had to act as if my needs were as important as anyones because I didn't feel it.

I did mean what I said about how I see you and what you have achieved.  I really wish I'd responded more appropriately and cut out the pollyanna stuff when you were feeling so low. 

[radical]

Flutterbye,
I hope you are around because I want to apologise properly for what I wrote.
It was invalidating, and my reaction was a response to my own stuff, my own fears, at your expense.  I would have felt awful if someone had responded to my experiences the way I responded to yours. 
It has been on my mind to come back to this.  I knew I owed you better.  I read Kizzie's link on gaslighting and knew that I had done that to you.  I'm so sorry.
I will always try to never do that again, to you or anyone else.
-Radical

edit by Dutch Uncle: inserted the link as radical intended

[Bird]

"I'm so anxious, even hyper-vigilant, but the upside to being a somewhat nervous personality is that if I like something I'm bursting with enthusiasm & encouragement & let people know!); some people are calm & steady and don't need to express how much they're  enjoying something"
Hey dear All, this is a great thread, thanks for the Endeavour!
))
I thought always, this problem of making nonabusive friendships, and such at a warm, relaxed pace, was my personal defect only... just as the longing for the good ones and coming often across the more familiar type..
I used to be completely unable to sleep even after the nicest contacts, any social contact was a trigger... haven't seen people for y e a r s except 10 minutes a week once, due to exhaustion reaction... I thought, it was Cfs/me - but some of my co fellows with Cfs had a l o t of social contacts, even when weak. They found them strengthening:))))))
Now I approach or try to approach the same good taste, and am really grateful to learn here, to go slow, but not low;))
Warmly,
Bird