EMDR?

[Saluki]

I just read the description for a book on EMDR and it sold EMDR like a miracle cure that can be achieved in 5 hours.
That sounds like maybe for PTSD not CPTSD.

Any thoughts or experiences?

[sanmagic7]

hey, saluki,

i'm an EMDR therapist, and have utilized EMDR in my own therapy.  honestly, it is/can be a wondrous technique when used correctly, and the client's diagnosis is known and understood.  altho it was originally developed for ptsd, and has had some seemingly 'miraculous' results, some therapists have been slow, as in so many of the helping/medical professions, to understand the difference between the two diagnoses.

more and more, however, are getting onto the c-ptsd bandwagon, understanding the differences, the underlying causes, and how it can present itself in so many different ways - like dissociation, the 4 F's, the emotional components, the triggers, body/brain responses, etc., and how they are relationally connected.  and that's a good thing to look for in a therapist.  if they don't know/understand it all, at least they need to be willing to do some research in order to learn, talk it over w/ their client, and reassure the client that they, themselves, can not do therapy wrong, that EMDR doesn't work the same for everyone, and that w/ their client, they will look for the ways and means to best help, or will admit it's beyond them, and recommend them to someone else.

so, in my mind, client/therapist relationship is paramount for any psychological progress to be made.  as far as the actual technique, EMDR can help a client in ways talk therapy just can't reach, because it helps stimulate our brain/mind to undo memories, actions, situations, etc. which have been stuck inside us in harmful ways.  it can help us stop reliving our horrors.  it can make those pictures we have stored inside dissolve down to a miniscule rendering so that it does not bother us, and sometimes can't even be pictured anymore.  in that sense, it can seem miraculous.

there are also iterations of EMDR, such as the Flash Technique, which can be helpful.  i've used this extensively in my own therapy as a way to keep from getting overwhelmed by emotional tsunamis, so to speak.  it worked wonders for me - i was able to make more progress on trauma issues in 5 yrs. than i had with various other types of therapy in over 30 yrs. there are other forum members who have had varying degrees of success w/ EMDR, and i hope you hear from some of them. i am presently looking for a new therapist (i moved to another state), and i'm hoping to find someone who is trained in EMDR - it is my first choice.

best to you with this.  i hope what i wrote is helpful.  any questions, feel free.  love and hugs

[SenseOrgan]

client/therapist relationship is paramount for any psychological progress to be made

 

My limited experience with EMDR hasn't brought me much, to be honest. I didn't target C-PTSD in general, but  misophonia (which I believe is a manifestation of that in my case). Even though my therapist was very kind and understanding, this modality in this context triggered a lot of performance anxiety. Constantly having to evaluate my inner state and rating it on a scale from 1 to 10 while having to follow the light going from left to right made me quite (socially) anxious. The fact that T was literally watching me was a massive trigger for me too. I'm not bashing EMDR though. I was quite surprised that, even in this context, it brought up tears a couple of times. I do believe there is a there there, and it's worth to explore if you have the opportunity and feel inclined to do so.

[Saluki]

Thank you sanmagic.
Over the course of the many attempts I've made over a 30+ year period of trying to find therapy that works for me, what worked best for me was when a therapist took me back to a traumatic event and helped me understand that it wasn't my fault - she helped me feel empathy for the person I was back then - and she did some kind of magic (obviously, not magic, but I have no idea how she achieved this) whereby I now think of a happy event that happened in my life whenever my brain tries to take me to the traumatic event. I don't know if it was EMDR or something else entirely, but I that was just one trauma - granted, it was a major trauma, but because there's SO MUCH other stuff, it overwhelms me just to try to figure out what I want gone, because... there's so much that is like a film festival of horror that's taken up residence in my brain, and I get those horrible memories triggered by so many completely benign things. Like the washing machine. The kitchen sink. Cooking. Cooking utensils. Foods. The fridge. Beds. Words. Sounds. Smells. All sorts of things that I wish could just be benign things!

Thank you for the love and hugs! Sending some to you too. I hope you manage to find a good therapist where you've moved to.

Oh, sanmagic, I forgot, is it even possible to do EMDR online, or would the therapy have to be in person?


Thank you SenseOrgan,

I looked up misophonia and managed to lose everything I'd just typed in the process! But what I read about it, thank you for helping me put a word to something I've found it difficult to explain. I have massive reactions to certain sounds. I have to block my ears and because I can usually still hear it I have to leave the area to get away from the sounds.
I also absolutely HATE being looked at (as in someone staring or appearing to "study" me -also trauma based), and I'm trying to learn to cope with triggers like this because apart from them making me feel generally uncomfortable in company, I feel like the abuser who's the reason I have these triggers, wins, and I lose, if I can't overcome them. At the same time, I don't want to make it worse by exposing myself to being stared at, observed, scrutinized. I have massive issues with eye contact too.
I guess I can talk about all this at my appointment.
I'm hoping the therapist I have an initial appointment with this coming week will be a good fit because it took me years building up to arranging an appointment!

[sanmagic7]

saluki, i'm so glad to hear you had at least one trauma taken care of.  it's a start. i just know if that can happen one time, it can happen again and again.  i give you a lot of credit for giving it a shot.

i hear you on 'benign' things being triggers - i have that problem as well.  it's as if much of my world is now tainted because of all the connections there are, many of them springing up into my face when i least expect them, and ruining an experience which might otherwise be positive. 

and, yes, EMDR can be done online, or even over the phone.  because of my autistic bent, i did better over the phone.  my T would tap out the rhythm for me and i could tap along or have my eyes move in time w/ her tapping.  my very first experience w/ EMDR, the T used a light bar for my eyes to follow, and also had me wear headphones in order to hear sounds, first in one ear then the other.  this was the least helpful for me - it felt very impersonal.  so, the ways and means of doing it also depend on your comfort level.  EMDR is very flexible, and you can get results from the way that works best for you.

and, i agree, your traumas were not your fault.  that's the telling part about trauma, to my mind, is that it makes us believe that someone else's actions were because of us, somehow - what we said, what we did, who we were, etc.  none of that is true - we didn't ask for it (unless there was some kind of threat, coercion, or manipulation going on), and we weren't the cause of it. those of us who have been traumatized tend to blame ourselves - that's the power of what we've been told by others, often our abusers.  no, you were not to blame, no matter what it was that happened to you.  i'm glad you were able to realize that for one of your traumas, and can only hope you can realize the same for others.  i think it's one of the most difficult truths for us to embrace.

good luck with your new T.  i do hope you find some relief, lots of healing, and loads of self-love along the way.  you so deserve it.  sending love and hugs your way.

[SenseOrgan]

It's great you know there's something out there that has worked for you with a major trauma! I hope EMDR is the (kind of) "magic" you experienced before. Congratulations for making the initial appointment!

From what you describe and my own experience around being watched, it seems like a good idea to discus this beforehand. It triggered me so much, that focusing on the issue we targeted became quite difficult at times. Until now it hadn't even occurred to me that I could have brought it up when it happened. So even in session, I was fawning and trying to fit into the format of the therapy (and perceived expectations). Thanks for bringing this to my awareness. If I had discussed this complicating factor with my therapist beforehand, it would have created more safety and the option to bring it up would likely not have been swept away by this trigger. Quite frankly, it seems strange to me now that the session could be about anything else than the interpersonal trigger if it happens in the session with such intensity. It's a different matter if watching the client like that isn't necessary.

It makes total sense to me you want to overcome these triggers for the reason you describe. You deserve a life without this burden. It's the dose that makes the poison though. I hope you'll find a way to mitigate this extra layer of complexity with your therapist, so you can have EMDR sessions as they are intended to. I'd like to add that I've had breakthroughs in this regard with another therapist with another modality. A big part of it is the match of personalities and the degree to which we're on the same page with regards to C-PTSD or whatever terminology they use for it. How safe I feel with them pretty much dictates how successful the intervention can be. I'm cheering you on! 

[Saluki]

Hey thank you sanmagic and SenseOrgan

 

I've just realised my appointment is tomorrow!!!
How did that sneak up on me?

Thank you both so much for your encouragement and sharing your experiences.

I fawned and tried to do everything "right" and how the different therapists I tried wanted too.
I'd not realised fawn response was the description of what I'd been doing before so thanks for sharing your experience of that.

With my last therapist although she did help in practical ways ie) I managed to leave my abuser thanks to her, so she's absolutely amazing - I didn't even realise why I was pretending to be okay just to please her and make her believe she'd "healed" me.

I didn't realise that was a fawn response until now.

I'm going to have to remember to explain that to the new therapist I think.

Let's see how it goes.

I'm either going to love them or hate them -

Going to listen to my gut on this and make sure this therapist is the right one for me before committing long term.

[Bach]

san, as an EMDR therapist, do you think there's any value to be had from self-administered EMDR?  I'd love to try it with a therapist, but unfortunately the lack of both availability and money preclude that at the moment.  I have a friend who sent me an EMDR video with a dot that moves back and forth and a tone that plays, but I'm not certain how to use it or if there's any point.  If you have any thoughts on this, please share.

[sanmagic7]

bach, actually because i am a trauma therapist, i really can't advise anyone to use any modality on themselves.  from my own experience, even in training, i went way over my own threshold without knowing it, and got into some real emotional trouble.  it took one of the trainers several different tries to bring me back to some sense of normality. so,  sorry, but not having you as a client, i cannot in good faith tell you what you might try on your own.  wish it could be otherwise.  but i do hope you find someone who helps.  love and hugs

[Blueberry]

Bach, I know of someone who went overboard on self-administered EMDR and then needed help coming back down, restabilising, regrounding.

If you tried it out, I guess first try the smallest, easiest trauma and then do alot of regrounding and if you have inner children, do healing stuff for them too before going onto other topics.

I'm not a therapist of any sort, obviously.

[Blueberry]

EMDR successful in 5 hours?

Maybe for single ptsd. But not for cptsd. IMO.
Hope I don't need to explain why not, hope it's kinda self-explanatory.

[Saluki]

Maybe it depends what "successful" means to the individual. I can't imagine 5 years being enough for my mountain of horrors. I'm also wondering about expectations. I try not to have any, but maybe it's impossible not to?

I can't even imagine anything ever actually "curing" single PTSD in 5 hours but I don't think anyone really "gets over" trauma, rather learns to live healthily in spite of it? The idea of a "cure" seems completely alien to me. Maybe that's just realistic. Or maybe because I never had the help I needed early on and because my trauma involves so many things from such a young age and those things I guess caused a domino effect of not ever learning how to safely navigate life, therefore getting caught up in more and more new traumatic situations.
Maybe because I've always tried to pretend that I'm okay and I'm not. Just to try to get through life.

I tried self hypnosis tapes that I got out of the library years ago - for insomnia - now for some reason, I have a massive aversion to anything like that. Just the "calming" voices make me angry and disgusted. Possibly because I was in a really bad place back then and I wasn't getting any help, had a very chaotic life. Trying to help myself without a therapist hasn't been helpful.
 

[Hope67]

Hi Saluki,
I've found bilateral stimulation to be a powerful tool in my healing process. I use the butterfly hug and listen to bilateral music while reflecting on past memories. Laurel Parnell's attachment-focused EMDR approach has been especially helpful, and because I've previously built a foundation in mindfulness and staying within my window of tolerance, I've felt reasonably well-resourced throughout. I understand that many people benefit from working with a therapist for this kind of processing, and I kept that in mind—having a back-up plan in case I ran into difficulties. Thankfully, it's been manageable, and I think that I'm doing well with it.

I think it does help to process things at a deeper level and possibly quicker than other methods - but I've been working on myself for a few years now, so really it might just be that it has helped me to integrate things I've learned from other therapist/providers/literature, and that the time was right for me to delve into this EMDR resource.

I have noticed recently that some of the dissociative walls I had have possibly dissolved and the consequence of that is that I 'feel' things more, and sometimes that's not a nice feeling - but I'm leaning into that - and exploring how those feelings are.  I don't think I'm explaining that very well - my apologies. 

Anyway, I wanted to add something to your thread about EMDR, because I have found it a helpful resource/method.

Hope

[Saluki]

Thank you Hope 

[Blueberry]

I can't even imagine anything ever actually "curing" single PTSD in 5 hours but I don't think anyone really "gets over" trauma, rather learns to live healthily in spite of it? The idea of a "cure" seems completely alien to me. Maybe that's just realistic

I think single ptsd is a different beast altogether (from cptsd)! Especially if it really is single ptsd that occurs when you're a fully formed (mid-20's and older) and fairly well-adjusted adult, who is involved in a bad car accident for instance, especially if you get appropriate care / have the appropriate resiliences in place (which most of us with cptsd have to learn or otherwise acquire over years). It seems they possibly are actually cured?? I have read that those soldiers who come back from war with ptsd and who have more trouble recovering than other soldiers with ptsd were often traumatised in childhood, mostly unbeknownst to them so probably also cptsd. Anyway, it's not quite all cut-and-dried. Depends on a lot of factors. Same with anxiety. If you have a single instance of anxiety going back to a single occurrence of something, apparently you might be cured within a small number of sessions, I have been told it happens. But if you have a General Anxiety Disorder which in itself imho is probably part of cptsd - in my case certainly - 5-10 sessions aren't going to cure the actual anxiety, it'll just attach itself to some other object or activity. Everything is so mixed up like the biggest mess of string and yarn in the back of the drawer that you can imagine.

I once had a quick trial session of EMDR when I was inpatient and I did find it fascinating the way I could almost feel things in my brain re-configuring and being slotted in different places for the next idk 12-24 hours. I'd never felt anything like that before and I do have a lot of therapy experience including lots of non-talk therapy under my belt. It didn't feel bad in any way either, no unhappy memories, no triggers during the re-slotting. But I can't say it reduced the anxiety about the object/activity I had with me in that moment. Presumably it healed something I was not consciously aware of, to some degree. 

... I don't think anyone really "gets over" trauma, rather learns to live healthily in spite of it? The idea of a "cure" seems completely alien to me. Maybe that's just realistic

Probably realistic for cptsd, unfortunately. Tho there are / have been members on here over the years who have achieved far more than I have towards living healthily and somewhat normally (having a job they can live off, having a suppportive and loving partner, continuing to grow, managing not to be totally triggered by FOO...)

Hope something in here might be useful for you, otherwise please ignore.