dollyvee's recovery journal

[Armee]

These things do not seem minute, at all Dolly. They are very big.

[dollyvee]

Thank you Armee - these are things to work out I think.

I can see how I like the superficiality in relationships I think, or when getting to know someone. It stays away from the anxiety I too feel when getting closer to someone. In the past, I think I stayed in this mode and would wait and see if they were "there for me," but would also do it in a way where I was giving up my own needs because I didn't want them to leave, or not like me. If they didn't like me it would bring up all the feelings of rejection from my mom and how felt about myself. I guess I also didn't know how to talk about my family or it was just the cause of so much anxiety that I just felt better not going there.

Also, am seeing how I was conditioned to trust people that didn't have my best interests at heart or had selfish intentions towards me; that I had to ignore the inner voice inside for the illusion. This is a lot more clear after my recent trip home and what I witnessed there, that this illusion was shaped by my gm and how she wanted to see the world for survival, and that a part of me was dependent on her for survival (or was at a very important development time), so I believed it too. I think I've said this before but now is becoming more clear how it "feels" and how this plays out in relationships etc.

A song came up in my playlist yesterday about a woman who just wanted to live life and walk at night and see the stars, but in order to be safe she had to carry a knife. I felt that a lot of women feel how I feel, walking at night. I think the fear something we grow up with and is always there. I can understand with the things that have come up lately how I'm feeling more fearful and unsettled more than usual.

[dollyvee]

I read something yesterday about narcissists and how many people don't believe people like this exist. I really felt that. That having to explain my family's behaviour and I'm always having to over explain it, or they dismiss it like he's an old man etc. They don't know what to do with people who behave like that and it's really alienating.

[rainydiary]

Dolly, your reflection about being conditioned to trust those who didn't have your best interests and being taught to disregard your experience really resonates with me as I am having a similar realization.  I was just reflecting to myself that I wonder how my experience will change if I actually listen to that voice saying "Something isn't right."  I'm not sure what I would do but perhaps believing myself first would be a good first step.  I hope that you find your way with this too.

[dollyvee]

Thanks rainy  It's a tough one as behind the blind trust is the pain I had as a kid who wanted to trust those people in the first place because she/I thought it/they would help her to do it. I think I've been slowly coming to realize that wait, it's not other peoples' responsibility to help/take on that pain (even though it was huge and what happened was really unfair for a child etc), which is what I guess I was expecting deep down. So, I'm not trusting people out of a survival "necessity" which is good. I think I've realized that taking on this pain has given me agency and my life back. I

agree that it hard to listen to the voice that says "something isn't right,"especially before it goes really wrong, because of all the times I was told I'm overreacting, not right, or they knew better. I think it's also tough because I feel like I've done a lot of self awareness/feeling work which a lot/(most?) people haven't done, and would maybe point out things that they wouldn't recognize and then I would be in a conflict with them about what was going on, or back to caretaking? I don't know.

It's hard for me to cut situations like this off. I usually feel like there's something I could have done etc or that maybe I did wrong. So, I think I've been carrying this situation around in my mind for a couple days. I shared it with a couple friends and they said they were sorry I had to go through that/what is wrong with people etc. So, I didn't feel completely "out there." But I really felt or realized, that it's not my stuff to change/take on/carry/be responsible for etc and I'm not a bad person for not doing that. I communicated from the beginning what I was about/needed and they chose to ignore/not address/be up front with who they were or say what they needed. This is someone else's stuff that they need to step up and deal with. I was happy to be there with them while they did that, communicated that, and there's nothing else I can do. It felt like old stuff where I was being used, maybe that's why it stung so much, but like with my mom, I wasn't a bad person for needing these things or giving their stuff back to them. Anyways, it wasn't something that was good for me.

[Blueberry]

I read something yesterday about narcissists and how many people don't believe people like this exist. I really felt that. That having to explain my family's behaviour and I'm always having to over explain it, or they dismiss it like he's an old man etc. They don't know what to do with people who behave like that and it's really alienating.

dollyvee, this caught my eye because it sounds exactly what I went through with the two ex-friends I've been detaching from and writing about on and off for months. Even when I over-explained, they still dismissed in their heads. It wasn't till 2021 that they dismissed in open words and/or actions.

Standing with you.

[Armee]

Dolly I think you're showing so much insight and maturity in what you are saying about taking on our own pain, not being responsible for other people's pain, and recognizing that feeling of being used. When you were a kid, your caretakers should have taken on your pain and helped you with it but you didn't have anyone who could do that for you. That should have happened and that was their job. You lost out on that. Instead, your caretakers used you to try to take on their own emotional pains and fill their emotional and psychological holes. You never should have been used like that, Dolly, not by your mom, not by your grandma, and not by the person who abused you in other ways your memory isn't open to yet.

But here you have grown to the point of being able to take ownership for your stuff as an adult, and to expect other adults to do the same. That is very mature. I'm sorry you did not get the same level of maturity back from the other person. That is on them.

And I agree it is very very difficult to get people to understand narcissistic abuse because each example is so sly and difficult to grasp without seeing and knowing the whole pattern. It took years with my therapist to be able to explain enough of the pieces for him to get it even; with friends it really comes down to them being able to trust me that it is what I say it is, rather than down to my ability to explain it so they understand. (In my case Borderline Personality Disorder abuse, rather than narcissism).

I'm going to post a link to a podcast that did a really good job talking about narcissistic abuse. It's geared toward therapists and there are a couple points where the speaker talks about how to pick up on the abuse under a story that might seem like not a big deal. 

[dollyvee]

Thank you Blueberry - I'm sorry that happened to you too  it's a big one and something I've noticed in different people over the years and am coming to see how this is all connected. I think, I hope. It happened in the past where ppl just said about my gm, oh she just loves you. I think it led me to then take it on and think, again, that it must be me and how was I unlike everyone else that I couldn't see her love/accept it. I think I felt a lot of anger and frustration at myself and the situation too. I think it's probably damaging (?) to us that ppl want to believe the easy/optimistic/superficial option. We have to go through the denial of our reality again and be alienated from friends as well as "family." If I stand up for my reality, then I am alienated, and if I accept the reality I'm given, then I'm denying myself. Unfortunately, because my family was so lacking in support, I looked to friends and the outside to find it, so it was really hard when things like this happened.

Thank you Armee - I appreciate the support  I didn't understand it for a long time. Going home, finding those papers, and seeing peoples' behaviour for what it is/was without my gm's illusion/wants and my love for her affecting me has helped me to put it into context. I could never just let go before, because I cared and I wanted to make it work. I cared for my gm and wanted her to get better etc. There was a lot that was hidden from me and a lot that I couldn't voice because I had to make other people happy. I'm sorry that you had to go through that experience of feeling not believed as well, or the struggle/process of being believed for what happened to you. I'm really thankful to have this forum where other people "get it."

This is a bit of a tangent, but I've thought about the "friend" from above over the years. When we met I thought she was someone like me who had been through a lot but was doing the work and coming out the other side, trying to create healthier patterns, self-awareness etc. She ended up marrying a nice doctor, having cute kids etc. This was something I wanted for myself too, but I don't think I was envious, just happy for her. I was supportive of her business and suggested ways that maybe she could better get herself out there, etc. I wanted to kind of talk about what I was going through and emdr since she had tried it. I was trying to sort myself out but maybe I was still in an awkward place? I overlooked, or didn't acknowledge how hurtful and dismissive some of her comments were. We would get dinner once in a while and I felt like I was improving and adjusting but I also had to keep the friendship going. I felt like I didn't fit into this "new world" she was living in. She lived in a much nicer (aka very expensive) neighbourhood (which they were able to do because he had a good family that planned for his future and they got lucky getting the house just before the area took off) and all the friends she posted about were from this area/world even though she came from the same place I did. She stopped returning my messages to hang out and I felt really hurt by that. I felt I was curated and picked over because of who I was, which was very much like her, except I didn't marry the doctor or live in that area. Maybe listening to what I was going through triggered her and what she was building. I just felt it was very fake and insincere. Anyways, I struggled a lot with that encounter over the years and not feeling good enough. I thought it was something about the way I looked, where I came from, how smart I was etc that it was me. Again, that's her stuff, but honestly the adult me sees/feels a lot of people would behave the same way. Do I fault her for looking out for her family? But then what can be so bad/wrong about me that you can't relate?

Spoke with t about my feeling that I preferred the "superficiality" and she said that everyone does. I feel like it's different though, that when people don't understand the things I (we) have gone through, it becomes the safe option because the real is too real for a lot (I feel most) people. Their reality doesn't confirm that people like this exist, so it's safer for me to just be superficial. Even t brought up a story where I related something and she had said how my gm was from a different generation and I called her up on it. She admitted that it wasn't how t's were supposed to approach things. I think maybe this superficial stuff is learned over time and conditioned from a young age when things were dismissed, not addressed etc. So, I struggle with how do I stay true to myself and still relate, or find ways of relating, to other people? I think in the past I would isolate and not believe people like this existed, who maybe didn't go through the same things as me, but were open and strong enough to listen. The other option was to stay in the "superficial" and just not acknowledge these things, or my reality/feelings etc which I think is what my family wanted. I don't have any answers for this, just things that are coming up.

It took a lot of work to get to the point where I could be that mature person (as Armee called it) and say that's his stuff. I went back to a lot of people who didn't treat me great thinking that I had to make it work, or that them rejecting me said something about me. I realized a year or so ago that I will eventually have to talk about cptsd and how being close to people makes me feel when I'm getting to know them. It was something I didn't even acknowledge, but think felt like it was something I had to hide. I also realized what my needs were regarding communication/emotional availability which is why I put it out there at the beginning. It's not on me that he chose to ignore it and not say anything about it. I think I also realized that I'm not asking for anything excessive or unrealistic and was willing to talk about his needs etc.

Long post but it's Sunday  and I'm working some stuff out.

[dollyvee]

It came up with t the other day about how people approach relationships differently; that I was willing to consider if my actions would affect someone, it didn't mean that that's how they thought. The same with my gm, that her way of loving me wasn't the same way as I loved her. Looking back with friends, romantic partnerships, family, I went in with an idea/expectation that they cared/would react the same way I would. I guess this is a very childlike view and one that still comes up at times. What keeps this there, going back to that way of thinking? That I don't want to see how people can actually be because it reminds me of how I felt at a time? Also, that I wasn't actually allowed to see that reality growing up and had to believe something else; that my grandmother's love was different from mine. But then I'm left with, if she loved me how could she behave in the ways she did knowing how I felt? Same with friends, romantic interests etc. I guess these are different because I chose relationships with these people.

I guess the adult part is putting boundaries in place so people don't "get to do anything to me." That I can control how I let people treat me. I think there's a part that's working this out, aligning how I would care for someone with I have to blindly trust (or just believe) that they'll treat me in the same way back. I think there's still a gap there that questions myself and what I'm doing. It also feels like a blank canvas, that I don't know how it would look to behave that way. Maybe it's because I don't feel entitled to it yet?

I don't know if this makes much sense, still working some things out.

[CactusFlower]

I think (I could be wrong) that it's perfectly normal, especially as a child with not as much experience yet, to think people love the same way we do. The reality is not something we're actively taught. Kind of like that popular stuff about "love languages" where someone might feel doing things for someone is love, and another person needs to actually hear it said. (Which is very simplistic in my opinion) It's only through actually experiencing it that we learn not everyone loves the same way. But abuse is not love, regardless of the type. I resonated with an earlier statement on here of "I read something yesterday about narcissists and how many people don't believe people like this exist." Mainly because it really points out how normalized that kind of behavior is in modern societies. "Oh, they're just being x..." When that shouldn't be "just" anything.  I hope that makes sense.

[dollyvee]

Thank you Cactusflower for your comment. I agree and am glad that resonated with you.

For better or worse I ended up watching the Bill Cosby We Need To Talk About Cosby documentary and it really highlighted how behaviour is normalized and how people use their image and manipulate their image to get away with something. Despite all those women coming forward, all the evidence against him, people are still wrestling with how he presented himself vs how he actually treated those women. A lot of them don't want to believe that he did those things. It was hard to watch all those women who stayed silent for years, thinking or believing that they had done something wrong (in some cases) and just to deal with it on their own because they felt like they wouldn't be believed 

This feeling that I'm trying to work out, a feeling of how I love and approach relationships, it feels like a fog. It's like working out what was an illusion and what wasn't. Even now, it's still so hard to say, as Cactusflower said, that it was abuse. I don't know how to describe it but it's like I can physically feel it this time, or am maybe more detached from wanting/pursuing (that it's something I have to do) the illusion that there's more space for recognizing what it was/is.

The photos I saw of my great gf when I was back and from what I know about him being "very strict" and "liking to drink," as well as the way my great gm looked at him, I wouldn't be surprised if it was a pattern repeating itself with my gm. That she had "love eyes" for my gf or step gf or whoever, and overlooked the feelings (safety) of the children involved because that's what happened to her. When I write it down, it sounds like abuse but when I thought about the situation in my head, I was thinking it's hard to see what she did as abuse. I guess because of my feelings for her. T and I have also been talking about religion and I'm sure the idea has come from somewhere what "good" children are supposed to be like. (The Way Down doc was also pretty mind blowing in how children are still treated).

[dollyvee]

Big chat with the lawyer yesterday about my m's estate and going forward. Had to bring up gf as he was going to be interim executor and recent events. I guess the gist of it was that everyone on my family is out for money and I don't feel like anyone has a moral compass or is involved who cares enough about me that I could trust them, and do I want to continue in this situation against someone like my sf who is a reprehensible person. V. Difficult to discuss this with strangers. Felt like I was trying to justify my actions and also I guess the feeling under it was I wouldn't be believed (maybe that I don't matter). Feel like I've stepped back a bit from this and seen how part of me was tied up in the fight because maybe that's the part that had to fight for survival growing up. But now how much of myself can I put into something going into court where they might turn around and just side with him (the reprehensible person) because that's the way the law works? I guess I would have seen it as a defeat before to walk away but I don't know if I see it that way right now.

Had a dream the other night about a romantic interest from the past who I thought there was something with. I approached him to take it further and he rejected me and just realizing how much I pushed it down. It's definitely always been an issue that space of unknowing at the beginning of a relationship. I guess it's time to reflect on that and learn to sit with it more, which I think I have, but there's more work to do maybe.

Have started being serious about going back and training since covid "ended," or life has sort of resumed. I notice how much of me is tied up in thinking about my body etc not being in a "good place" and examining that.  I think a lot of it is pressure around what other people expect/what other people have said to me/how other people behave etc. it's a weird battle. I know what I'm capable of and that in the past I've dropped 6-7kgs properly in two months through diet and training. Though again, it isn't weight that matters as I've found out it's bf %. I put those 6-7kgs back on as muscle but a number on the scale is a very hard mindset to get out of.  It gave me confidence to step aside a bit from how I've always viewed my body (as not good enough, not this, not that, something out of my control and would therefore try to control it). Though I don't think those things were fully resolved. I guess there's still vanity there but maybe it's more about actually feeling good. I'm trying to come back to training with that mindset like I can do this, but also deal with eating better and see that food actually nurtures you. I can eat a lot (1900 cals is a lot but what I need through body recomposition) and I'm not a bad person for it. Maybe my sf's voice is still in the back of my head somewhere that told me I was fat as a child and made me run. (I also connected the dots the other day that maybe this is why I sort of hate running deep down). Maybe dealing with health and fitness in this way will also rewire that thinking and that voice. I also notice a lot of competitiveness at the gym I go to which doesn't make rewiring that voice easy.

[dollyvee]

After talk with lawyer was on my walk and some feelings came up. Maybe it was my inner critic (?) I don't know, but thought of myself dealing with this stuff and how pathetic (?) I must look or be to not have anyone around me to support me. I don't know how describe it, I don't think it felt like my voice being hard on myself (you must look etc) but coming from somewhere else. I did feel aloneness coming up, also memories or reactions of my peers growing up (?) when I felt unaccepted or the things I was doing weren't good enough. Just a feeling of not being able to relate to people. At times like that in the past my gm would be there and that she loved me which was an illusion.  I was left with the feeling that I just had to keep doing what I was doing, that I wasn't accepted by other people but it would eventually come. It wasn't that the situation itself was maybe wrong. I don't know if this is how the illusion is still coming up in my life?

Guy at the gym yesterday who I noticed before and thought maybe there was a little mutual something. I notice that guys seem to expect jealousy between women and particularly if one women looks a certain way (or behaves a certain way - maybe more helpless/vulnerable) and another doesn't. Anyways, I think other women are great but it's like he stepped in to protect this person from me. A lot of the time it's opposite I feel that because I don't buy into this dynamic they want to undermine me, or it bothers them that maybe I actually am a nice person. This happens often with guys. I've never been the person who has been allowed to be helpless like that and am capable of doing things for and taking care of myself. I guess I could never allow that trust to be there, or it takes a long time to come. I don't fault other people for being that way but at the same time I want to stay in my lane and not engage with those dynamics. It just brought up how seperate and alone i can feel when thing like that happen; that I'm alone again, other people didn't have to go through these things. Maybe I'm playing out some kind of dynamic again or maybe I'm just setting boundaries and saying this is who I am and can see the outcome differently - that it wasn't for me. I think my icr then comes up and says it never is for you etc.

[Larry]

hi dolly,  i hope you have a good day today 

[rainydiary]

Dolly, I appreciate you sharing your experience with the thoughts of seemingly being on your own.  I often wonder if I seem like an odd being to other people too.  I judge myself but also often am ok with it being me in some situations.  I wish you well as you navigate discussion with the lawyer and develop a workout routine.