Fixation that never seems to progress – Having children

[Frederica]

I am really scraping the bottom of the barrel on this. Nothing I've ever read or heard has ever really helped me "move on" from being tormented by this line of thought. It's been cropping up over and over again for years and I've never managed to explain it to a therapist. It's absolutely crippling at times.

Children. I've been so consumed by the topic over the years that I've absorbed countless books and research papers, surfed the entire online babyverse, and taken child development classes at college. I possess extensive theoretical knowledge about topics such as childbirth, foster care adoption, positive discipline, prenatal vitamins, Waldorf and Montessori education, homeschooling, swim classes, prefold diapers, different parenting styles, breastfeeding, nontoxic baby products, and so on. It all feels like sunk cost – I've spent (quite literally) hundreds of hours of my life gathering information on something that, the older I get, and the more seizures I have, and the more CPTSD strangles my functioning, looks more and more laughable. I feel like if I want to put "have a family" on my bucket list, I should probably list it right below "fly to Jupiter on a communion cracker." I don't know whether it would be ethical or even possible for me to parent, given all my problems and traumas, and even if I do "recover" enough to make it a morally acceptable option, I don't know whether that recovery will be when I'm 30 or when I'm 50.

(POTENTIAL TRIGGERS)
I'm always wondering about the vision for my life I would've had if my r***** hadn't stolen it from me. He was always intent on controlling me reproductively, telling me he owned my uterus, and how many of his kids I was going to have, and the timetable on which I would do so. (this started when I was 15). He was constantly painting an image of the fantasy life he was going to give me, constantly proposing (but never giving me a ring) and telling me about how my wedding was going to be and how I was going to have beautiful babies and a house with a white picket fence. It was just an elaborate distraction to help ensure I would put up with increasingly more violent r***s and other abuse.
(END OF TRIGGERS)

As a result, I have no idea if my feelings or desires come from me, or are just leftover brainwashing. Sometimes I think having a family was a sincere aspiration of mine, so it was exploited as a weakness and perverted for his aims. Other times I wonder if he manufactured it completely for the purpose of manipulating me.

I'm desperately, blood-boilingly envious of women who know what they want. I think those studies trying to determine whether people are happiest with 0, 1, 2, 3 or 4+ children are mostly bologna fluff. The people who are happy are the ones who get want they want. If someone wants to get their tubes tied and sip mimosas while having adult conversation, that's great. If someone wants to pop out 6 kids and stay home doing laundry and craft projects, that's great too.

But what do I want? I feel like I must know NOW, TODAY, not later, and I can't drop it until I have a reasonable idea of what I want. I find the uncertainty completely intolerable. Even if I don't get what I want, I want to know what it was that I wanted. I need to know if I what I am experiencing is involuntary childlessness, or voluntary childfreeness, or what.

If anyone has a mental crowbar that might unstick this, that'd be wonderful.

[AphoticAtramentous]

I'm sorry I don't really have any advice to give but I will just comment to say I'm sorry about what's happened to you and sorry this is all such an icky mess for you. ^^"
I'm not sure how it feels to be so unsure like that, having such contradicting thoughts and views and wondering where you really stand, at least - in regards to having children. For me I've always been pretty set on not having any children cause I'm too lazy for that $%^&*# lol.
I guess the only thing I can suggest is to tell yourself you don't need to know the answer right now. You're still under pressure from this c-ptsd stuff, but you get better and better. No, you don't know when you'll 'fully recover' but eventually over time your thoughts will begin to become clearer and one day you'll wake up, ponder a little, and realise what you truly want for yourself. ^^ So I suppose patience is the key here. But I don't think you should try digging the answer up, I don't think it's real healthy to do so at the moment.
Best of luck with it all.

[Frederica]

Thank you, just the sympathy means a lot. I guess I can try to have a little faith that I'll wake up and figure it out eventually 

[Candid]

Frederica, I'm the middle of three childless sisters born to a covertly abusive mother.  I always knew I didn't want children.  ElderSis was never sure -- didn't want one now but was afraid she might in the future -- until the decision made itself; she and I are both in our 60s.  YoungerSis aborted a mistake when she was 19 and was pitifully upset about it afterwards, but she didn't try again.

My concept of mothering is based on films and on seeing friends' relationships with their children.  I grew up with so much emotional neglect/abuse that I have no clue how it's done 24/7/365.  I just don't have that to give.

I'm sorry you're struggling with this.  I do believe a lot of women are able to reparent themselves as they parent their children.  I still believe I would have been abusive -- not my reason for abstaining, but I'm so glad I did.

[AphoticAtramentous]

Frederica, I'm the middle of three childless sisters born to a covertly abusive mother.  I always knew I didn't want children.  ElderSis was never sure -- didn't want one now but was afraid she might in the future -- until the decision made itself; she and I are both in our 60s.  YoungerSis aborted a mistake when she was 19 and was pitifully upset about it afterwards, but she didn't try again.

My concept of mothering is based on films and on seeing friends' relationships with their children.  I grew up with so much emotional neglect/abuse that I have no clue how it's done 24/7/365.  I just don't have that to give.

I'm sorry you're struggling with this.  I do believe a lot of women are able to reparent themselves as they parent their children.  I still believe I would have been abusive -- not my reason for abstaining, but I'm so glad I did.

That brings up an important note. One of other the reasons I don't think I'll ever have children is because I don't think I'd be a good parent. I just don't know how parenting should be done, I didn't have that loving nurturing family that most people have had. I'm afraid I'll do some things to my kids that I'll deem as normal when it's actually quite abusive. I fear ruining other people's lives like that. :S

[Blueberry]

That brings up an important note. One of other the reasons I don't think I'll ever have children is because I don't think I'd be a good parent. I just don't know how parenting should be done, I didn't have that loving nurturing family that most people have had. I'm afraid I'll do some things to my kids that I'll deem as normal when it's actually quite abusive. I fear ruining other people's lives like that. :S

Except in my case it actually is too late biologically-speaking.

I remember when I realised I never would have children because I knew I wouldn't be far enough along in my healing to do so (I've never had a relationship with a man, and I don't believe and didn't then that the first thing I should do if I got into a relationship was produce a child), so when I realised I would never have children, I was very sad. 

Frederica, I don't have an answer for you. IME the answers to that kind of big topic come bit by bit when we're ready. They evolve.  "mental crowbar" - interesting image that. When therapists have tried to push me too much in the past, I've asked them not to go through my defence system with a sledge hammer. Though sometimes I think I want to go through my own defence system with a sledge hammer. lol.

I hope you find an answer, or at least some peace of mind. 

[Frederica]

@Candid, I can understand what you mean by having a concept of motherhood based on secondhand sources like movies and friends. I remember being addicted to the Cosby Show as a child just because I was fascinated by watching the dynamics of a loving, non-crappy family. (As you can imagine, those memories are rather tainted now, but at the time, who knew.) 

I did at least see my sister (who is 16 years older than me) and her husband raise 2 kids who have turned out amazing by every measure. They're simply wonderful, kind, smart, well-adjusted kids. So... I guess it's possible to not mess children up, at least for some people.

I know I don't have the energy either, not now and maybe never - I do watch my niece sometimes and it usually ends with me passing out on the floor while a small person (well, a young person, she's almost the size of me now really) jumps on me and pokes my face, yelling "you have napped long enough, wake up and play with meee auntie!"  But on the other hand, I did keep her alive and fed and reasonably entertained for a few hours before collapsing, so that's something I guess.

@Blueberry - Wow, thank you for telling me that, that's sounds like a really vulnerable moment to share. Approximately how old were you when you had that realization, if you feel comfortable sharing? I'm often afraid of getting older because I'm anticipating (dreading) having that same moment of realization that my emotional healing is not going to "get there" before my reproductive capabilities peter out. Though I think that it is incredibly insightful, mature and unselfish of you to acknowledge that you "wouldn't be far enough along in healing" and making the choices you did. I hope I would be so responsible as well.

By some freak accident I have found myself in a healthy and supportive relationship with a man (I had planned to just accumulate cats forever), which is actually kind of obnoxious in this scenario, because he is always hanging around the house, being smart and cute and looking like he would make smart, cute babies. He is also basically neutral about the idea of having kids someday, which I suppose is a blessing but also sometimes makes me want to rip my hair out because part of me wants someone to tell me what to do. So I'm ripping my hair out and he's chilling like a flippin' Zen master telling me to have faith in universe.   

I feel even a little more pressure because I have migraines with aura, so taking estrogen makes my blood pressure shoot up to stroke levels. I have heard of r*** survivors using things like egg freezing, IVF and other fertility treatments to help keep their options open for a little longer than natural, but all those things involve huge doses of estrogen that would probably kill me.  I guess there's no concrete ceiling on what age I could be and adopt a child, especially an older child or a teenager, but that's quite a different life experience to contemplate.

@Aphotic - I worry about that sometimes too. I don't think I would ever knowingly abuse someone, but I worry I'd do something bizarre thinking it was normal, or neglect to do something that I should because no-one did that for me as a child. Also the world sometimes feels so terrifying that I worry even if I never did anything abusive to them then someone else surely would.

I would totally settle for peace of mind!

[Libby12]

Hi frederica

This is a really interesting discussion and it took me a while to see how it related to me.  I have three grown-up children so I just wondered if anything from that perspective might help just a little.

My nm has said that having children was the best thing she ever did in her life.  She was damaging to both me and my sister but in different ways.

Looking back, somewhat like you, I had no idea at all whether I wanted children or not.  Nm said it was so amazing and yet most of the time, she seemed to dislike being a mother (especially to me, as I was the SG. I was meant to make her happy but I just failed dismally from the day I was born).  She bought me up to believe that my life had to be just like hers,  wife and mother, to which ends she filled my every moment with household and caring duties. But on top of this, she made it absolutely clear that I was not good enough,  nice enough,  attractive enough to ever find a husband to have to have this life, with children, with.   I was left utterly confused about what I wanted. I often said that I didn't like children but I really don't know what I felt.

Amazingly,  I did meet someone who actually liked me.  Amazingly, he wanted to marry me.  As soon as we married,  they pressured me into having children.  I still don't really know for sure if I wanted children at this point, but pressure from parents to give them grandchildren,  and nm's comments about my age, pushed me into it.  I probably did want children but that was not the prime motivator.  That was my parents and the role that I had been given from early in life.

I had a daughter,  and as my parents had just had two girls (I was the oldest)  I had followed the path set out for me by them. I then wanted to have another baby quickly.  l wasn't fully aware why at the time because I found being a mother very hard. Why have a second child and be even more stressed. Even then, on some level,  I realised that I was under pressure to recreate my FOO,  by having a second baby very quickly.   There was only just over a year between my sister and I.  I was positive I would have a second girl.  In fact,  I found out I was having twins and they were both boys.  My goodness,  did that cause trouble.  I think my mother resented me, thought I was trying to out do her or something,  so set about a campaign to ensure that I did not feel special in any way. Parents always said that they didn't like boys so having boy twins sealed our fate with them.  I didn't realise at the time, but this was the start of my journey OOTF.  I wasn't my mother and she didn't like this.

Had I recreated my FOO,  I have little doubt that I would have remained in the FOG,  and traumatised my dd in much the same way as I was traumatised.  Marrying someone who was not fooled by my parents and then having a different mix in my FOC ultimately saved all of us but especially me and my dd and our relationship. Sounds dramatic,  but I am positive it is true, because the more I escaped from enmeshment with my parents,  the better mother I became.  And wife, for that matter.

Sorry for the very long story,  but I wanted to tell it, partly to get it out of my system,  so thank you,  but also to say that I really understand what you are feeling.   This idea that your reproductive status was taken over by someone in your past, leaving you unable to truly know what you want.

I think it is actually good that you are questioning yourself.  I didn't and it could have turned out to be a disaster for me and for my children.   I was lucky, that's all. You are really thinking and considering what would be best for you, and what life would be like for any future children with you as their mother.  That is so responsible and I wish my nm had done that.

Perhaps I am just being "romantic",  but maybe the answer to your question about whether you want children will become clear when you are in a position to decide to have a child.  Whether that be meeting someone or being able to become a parent through an alternative route.  You have done all of the groundwork,  so to speak, so you will know if and when the time is right for you and for the child.   If you don't become a parent,  then I believe you will have also reached a very responsible outcome,  if that makes sense.  Also,  have you looked at your own childhood for other clues to your feelings?

You clearly have a good understanding of yourself so I believe you will make the right decision at the right time, whatever that may be.

As a final comment, (I promise I will finish soon!)  my dd doesn't know if she wants children or not.   This is based on all sorts of things like the long history of pds and depression etc in my mother's family,  health issues of her own (physical and psychological), and being very aware (she is a psychologist and neuroscientist) of the gravity of having children.   I believe that whatever decision she comes to will be the right one for her, her partner and any child,  because she will have thought it through so carefully.  You will do that too,  I think.

My twins are autistic / brain-damaged and although they function quite well now, they will probably never have a relationship or children.  That is how it is and I don't resent them not giving me grandchildren!!  If my dd does have a child,  I will be a good grandma,  but if she doesn't,  I know that that will be right for her.

I hope I have managed to say something just a bit helpful to you.  I just wish you all the best in the future and applaud for your careful consideration of this important aspect of life.

All the best,

Libby.

[Candid]

I guess it's possible to not mess children up, at least for some people.

Of course it is!  Children know when they're loved, and that's 'all' you have to do.  Everything else follows on from it.  Until Mother became overt 26 years ago, I knew she didn't love me and assumed it was my fault -- because by that stage I was getting the message from all directions.  I was in no position even to consider becoming a mother myself.  For me, such a huge commitment would have required an inner security I have yet to experience.

A former colleague once informed me: "You hate children" and I was aghast.  To be sure, I was Put Out when she visited me with her four-under-seven and sat on my couch flipping through a magazine while they ran riot in my small, neat home, hanging off the plastic door of my tape deck and doing unspeakable things with my toothbrush, but hate children? I'd never said that, have never felt it. 

She said that day: "Now you know what it's like."  I already knew what her children were like, because it was usually I who visited her home, where it was impossible to get two sentences out without interruption, at which she unfailingly  jumped up to give every small visitor whatever they asked for.  To my credit I stuck with this friend, but she completed what mother started. Mother was a merciless attacker for whom I could get nothing right; this was a laissez-faire mother whose children could do no wrong until she got triggered and started either weeping or shouting abuse.  IMO both are equally catastrophic, but I'm fully aware there's middle ground. I've met far too many caring parents, whose children show the results of mindful correction at the right times and for the right reasons, to believe it can't be done.   

Everything you've written on this thread shows you are responsible now and would still be so if you chose to be a mother -- and your partner sounds like a Great Catch who loves you.  He loves you!  And he knows the baby issue ought to be the woman's decision every time, no exceptions, even though I've heard so many say: "I didn't really want children, but he wanted them so much..."  Women in the lucky first world have control over reproduction, and we know that with the best will in the world it will be we who do the bulk of the work.  I'm sure there are career girls who carry on as normal while providing financially for a househusband/chief carer and offspring; I just haven't met any.

So I dips me lid to your partner for refusing to tell you what to do.  IMO, first pregnancy is the biggest decision a woman can ever make, and I'm appalled at the many who appear to 'let it happen' to them while immature, broke, underprotected and/or homeless themselves. Don't get me started on overpopulation and the effects of a welfare system that makes teenage single motherhood a career choice.

Re. adoption, my gay brother has fostered a number of children from kiddie to teenage, and as far as I know has always found the experience rewarding.  In fostering cases the biological parents have been deemed incompetent or abusive, so these children come with ready-made problems.  It's much harder to adopt; for obvious reasons there simply aren't that many healthy babies needing homes, and of course prospective adopters are scrupulously vetted.

I believe your natural empathy would ensure you weren't inadvertently neglectful or abusive.  As ACE survivors we're unlikely to make the mistake of expecting a child to have the understanding of an adult. The 'only' danger lies in the difficulty many of us have regulating our own emotions.  A toddler tantrum can be massively triggering.

Also the world sometimes feels so terrifying that I worry even if I never did anything abusive to them then someone else surely would.

This is the effect of the 'news', where horror stories make headlines and good parenting features nowhere.  We all know there are people whose children die young, whether by accident, illness or stranger danger.  I don't know how these parents live the rest of their lives, but I do know that the vast majority of babies born in the first world stay alive long enough to become parents themselves.  I don't suppose that's very helpful to someone who fears violence against the children she hasn't yet decided to have!

[Frederica]

@Libby, I'm glad to hear from you, no need to apologize for a long story, I really want to hear about the experiences people have had and try to learn from them and understand. Your insights have really got me thinking right now, I will probably be processing for while.

I am so glad that you managed to get away from your family – that is what OOTF means, yes? They sound toxic almost to the point of absurdity. I can't believe they would reject their own family because of the gender of the babies. Well, actually I can believe it, but it's depressing that some people are such asshats. It sounds like it was for the best in the end, though. And it's a wonderful accomplishment that you aren't turning around and putting the same pressure on your own daughter.

My mother also said some of the same things to me about how having kids was the best – even wishing aloud tha she could have had more – but I have never seen her look like she is actually enjoying it! She quickly gets irritated and berating with my sister and I even though we are adults now, as if our presence was only tolerable for so long before she's done having us around for dinner or whatever. I have no memory of her playing with me when I was little, and she also never seems to play with her grandkids – my niece, when she was only four, said something like this, except she had cute nicknames for each of these relatives, but they're pretty distinct so I'll use generic names: "Mommy likes to play, Daddy likes to play, Auntie likes to play, Brother likes to play, Great Grandma likes to play, Grandma likes to clean." Funny but a little sad. I guess if all you do with your kids is clean up after them and yell at them for making messes, then of course it's not going to be enjoyable.

You know, sometimes I have wondered if doing something dramatically different in regards to family structure might help me break any lingering patterns from my parent's crappy parenting. It sounds like that happened to you, if inadvertently. I guess there may be some serious value in not copying FOO's structure in regards to spacing and number of kids if I ever were to get there.

I guess the question I then arrive at is, if I don't have children, what do I do with my life? I mull over different ideas in my head, like maybe I can travel or make art or rescue more abused dogs, but while those things are all great, considering them as a substitute for having a family feels kind of like trying to stuff tissue paper into a gaping flesh wound.

Again, thank you Libby, you are more than a little helpful.

[Frederica]

@Candid, I like hearing that there are perhaps more than 1 or 2 functional human families existing in the world today and you have seen some.

Reading what you said about the baby issue being the woman's decision, I felt this wonderful flood of gratitude. Yeah, I am lucky to live in this time and place where birth control is a thing! I am lucky to have a partner that has no interest in dictating my uterus around! Maybe I will stop being mad at him for not bossing me?

I most certainly agree that unplanned, unwanted teenage pregnancies are an unhappy affair, though I'm not sorry the welfare system does exist to help them, bare bones as it is around here. So many friends and classmates that I have seen go down that road wind up in that place after, you guessed it, being abused. I blame the parents, school and society and general for failing at sex education more than I blame them. I once read that, when pregnant teenage girls were interviewed by sociologists, something like half of them didn't think they could get pregnant and were totally surprised. Brains are just not developed enough to judge consequences at that age, throw an abstinence-only sex education program taught by Mormons on top of that and bam, lots of teenage mothers. Maybe in other places it is different, but that's what it's like in my city.

Totally true about there being very few babies or toddlers for adoption, I figured a long time ago that if I did ever adopt it would probably be an older child. I've investigated the different forms of adoption and I do believe I would probably only consider adopting from foster care or fostering-to-adopt, so I would have to be strong enough to parent kids that weren't "perfect" and have their own trauma to work through. I do wish everyone had to get vetted so scrupulously before having bio kids like they do for adoption or fostering.

This is going to sound bizarre but I don't worry so much about them dying as I worry about their life being miserable. I know that a lot of the dramatic news headlines are statistically uncommon events. I know what babies, children and teenagers actually tend to die of – mostly premature birth, car accidents and suicide, last time I checked. I would have at least some power to protect them from those things. I could follow all known guidelines for pregnancy health and halve the risk of premature birth, I could buy a car with the best crash safety ratings and  the best carseats on the market (currently the CLEK Foonf) and check that they are installed correctly with a carseat safety technician, and though I missed the warning signs of someone about to commit suicide once, it sure ain't happening again if I can help it. I think I could keep them alive but I doubt I could keep them from the suffering and struggle that too often constitutes the majority of a person's existence.

[Candid]

I guess the question I then arrive at is, if I don't have children, what do I do with my life?

More of what you've always done.  Further study, travel, breed cats, work, gardening, spend time with friends...  My life has always been full -- not necessarily in positive ways -- without having children.

I most certainly agree that unplanned, unwanted teenage pregnancies are an unhappy affair, though I'm not sorry the welfare system does exist to help them, bare bones as it is around here.

Here in the UK it's definitely a career choice.  A relative got pregnant in hopes that her boyfriend would marry her.  He didn't, but the government housed her -- big house with a garden -- and paid her sufficient for her needs, running a car, etc.  She is now in her late 40s and has never held a job.  I heard a schoolgirl on a bus tell her friend she intended to have two mixed-race children, a boy and a girl, but not live with their father/s.  It's interesting to me that an overcrowded country like this is still so greedy for the tax £££ generated by cramming in ever more people.  Also, the job market here is appalling -- so many hurdles to get a job that pays considerably less than you'd get as a welfare mum.  I can understand school leavers feeling quite helpless.

Brains are just not developed enough to judge consequences at that age,

I agree.  I'm sure the teenager on the bus envisioned still going out nightclubbing with her friends, wearing trendy clothes and generally having a blast once school was out.  The babies (race and gender specified) were to be more akin to accessories than to people.

... throw an abstinence-only sex education program taught by Mormons on top of that...

Yes, that would make a difference!  These days, primary school children in the UK know exactly how girls get pregnant. 

I do wish everyone had to get vetted so scrupulously before having bio kids like they do for adoption or fostering.

I've often had the same thought, because I see small children being verbally abused all over the place.  But as we know, a family can look perfect on the outside while harbouring one or more vicious parents.  Also... I doubt first world governments will ever regulate people's sex lives and reproduction.  It was disastrous throughout Asia, which now has a monster demographic problem because so many baby girls were... eliminated. That would be awful too, right?

This is going to sound bizarre but I don't worry so much about them dying as I worry about their life being miserable.

Could that be a reflection from your own upbringing?  I've often thought it would have been kinder of my mother to smother me at birth, as soon as she knew I had the 'wrong' equipment.

I missed the warning signs of someone about to commit suicide once, it sure ain't happening again if I can help it.

That happened to me, too.   

I think you'd be a lovely mum, Frederica -- but I had that said to me, too, and I always said: "Too bad."

[Libby12]

Hi again.

This is such an interesting discussion so I hope you don't mind me butting in again.

Frederica, your mother sounds so like mine.  She was so uninvolved with her children and grandchildren,  so unemotional (except for anger and criticising) and housework and cooking always came first.

Like candid, I really picked up on your feeling that you were less worried that any child you had would die than that they would be miserable.   I have always felt that and thought it was odd, so I am pleased that I am not alone.  When my children go out or away on trips, I don't worry that they may be involved in a crime or accident.   I think I could cope. But if they tell me that someone has been mean to them; they tell me they are depressed or feeling hopeless or whatever,  I absolutely fall apart.  I feel such an overwhelming responsibility for their happiness that it is just too much for me most of the time.  I can help them through and have done on many occasions but at such an emotional cost to me.   I feel that as I chose to give them life then I feel so guilty that they are unhappy.

I am sure candid is right to say that this comes from my own upbringing.   My nm seemed to feel absolutely no responsibility for my happiness.   I was responsible for her happiness but it was down to me to be happy in myself.   I was told all the time that I just didn't try to be happy so my sadness was simply my own fault.   When I was severely depressed they finished with me and my family altogether.  I hope this doesn't sound awful but when I see reports of really ill children,  of course I am sad that they may die, but I think that at least they have these wonderful parents who are fighting for them and devoting themselves to them.  It seems to me to be OK to die when there has been so much love.  My heart goes out to the children (and animals) who no one loves and wants, more so than the ones who are poorly but so loved.

I have a SIL who I think maybe BPD and she was unsure as to whether she had wanted children or not and asked me what I thought. I said that although I would not be without my children,  I couldn't have imagined how hard was  the constant worrying about them. I think it was right that she didn't have children because everything about her character and behaviour suggested to me that she would likely be a traumatising mother like mine. So many people have children for many bad reasons.  If you do have a child,  Frederica,  I think it will be for the right reasons,  and that means you will be a good mother.

Thank you for letting me join in here.

All the best,

Libby.

[Blueberry]

@Blueberry - Wow, thank you for telling me that, that's sounds like a really vulnerable moment to share. Approximately how old were you when you had that realization, if you feel comfortable sharing? I'm often afraid of getting older because I'm anticipating (dreading) having that same moment of realization that my emotional healing is not going to "get there" before my reproductive capabilities peter out. Though I think that it is incredibly insightful, mature and unselfish of you to acknowledge that you "wouldn't be far enough along in healing" and making the choices you did. I hope I would be so responsible as well.

When the realisation hit me full in the face, I was actually at one of those weekend healing retreats I used to go to quite often (for lack of better therapy), so that wasn't a bad place to be with it. It was quite a while ago. I was probably in my late 30's. I'm now in my late 40's.

I didn't actually have to make any choices at all. Birth control isn't necessary if you aren't in relationships. Deciding against a child isn't necessary either. It was just the realisation - it won't even be possible for me to consider having a child, ever.

Your case sounds different. You are in a relationship! which I'm still not, approx. 10 years on. So don't lose heart just because of my realisation. It doesn't have to be yours.

FWIW in my country there actually is an age-cap on adoption, and it is surprisingly young - 30 I think. But I don't think many if any people on here are in my country. Just make sure you know in your own country.

[Frederica]

Hi guys. I had a major bout with dissociation for a few days (unrelated) but wanted come back and respond to your thoughtful posts. 

Here in the UK it's definitely a career choice.  A relative got pregnant in hopes that her boyfriend would marry her.  He didn't, but the government housed her -- big house with a garden -- and paid her sufficient for her needs, running a car, etc.  She is now in her late 40s and has never held a job.  I heard a schoolgirl on a bus tell her friend she intended to have two mixed-race children, a boy and a girl, but not live with their father/s.  It's interesting to me that an overcrowded country like this is still so greedy for the tax £££ generated by cramming in ever more people.  Also, the job market here is appalling -- so many hurdles to get a job that pays considerably less than you'd get as a welfare mum.  I can understand school leavers feeling quite helpless.

Wow, that's pretty wild. Sounds like the modern UK would give Mr. Mises a heart attack.

A friend of mine got pregnant (after she was told she was physically unable to have children) while already in government housing – which she had only been placed in after being repeatedly homeless due to domestic abuse and being officially designated as SMI (serious mental illness) and trying to work several times but always getting let go because of her disability rendering her unable to do even basic work tasks many days.

Basically, all she got pre-baby was a tiny, maybe 300 square foot apartment, and maybe $170 in food stamps. After the baby they did move her to a slightly less tiny apartment in a pretty ghetto area, clean but certainly no garden/yard or frills, and WIC benefits which consist primarily of food benefits which can only be spent on designated healthy foods and some free basic baby items, such as onesies. She has done disability benefit paperwork I believe but will probably be waiting another year or two to even hear back from them.

That's literally it around here. If you are not disabled and need housing assistance, then you will be waiting 3 to 7 years or more on a subsidized housing list no matter how many children you have, and even then it's not free, just subsidized. You're always better off working, if you can. Anyway, the comparison is interesting.

Your case sounds different. You are in a relationship! which I'm still not, approx. 10 years on. So don't lose heart just because of my realisation. It doesn't have to be yours.

FWIW in my country there actually is an age-cap on adoption, and it is surprisingly young - 30 I think. But I don't think many if any people on here are in my country. Just make sure you know in your own country.

That's crazy – 30!? Here in the US there is no maximum age on state adoptions, grandparents for instance adopt their grandchildren all the time – as long as you are still physically/mentally fit for the job they will consider you. Private domestic agencies can set their own age maximums if they want, but they're usually something like 45-50. There's also no requirement to be married or part of a couple, except with some private religious agencies, though it does help.

Maybe so with the realization, but it sounds so spot on with what I already imagined happening.

I am sure candid is right to say that this comes from my own upbringing.   My nm seemed to feel absolutely no responsibility for my happiness.   I was responsible for her happiness but it was down to me to be happy in myself.   I was told all the time that I just didn't try to be happy so my sadness was simply my own fault.   When I was severely depressed they finished with me and my family altogether.  I hope this doesn't sound awful but when I see reports of really ill children,  of course I am sad that they may die, but I think that at least they have these wonderful parents who are fighting for them and devoting themselves to them.  It seems to me to be OK to die when there has been so much love.  My heart goes out to the children (and animals) who no one loves and wants, more so than the ones who are poorly but so loved.

Libby, much of what you said really touched my heart – your whole post really.
I know what you mean about the love and the dying – I am often confused and at a loss, actually, for what else to do sometimes  – I'm told when I'm fading into a seizure I sometimes say things like "I got some love, it's okay to die now, there's nothing else to do now."