dollyvee's recovery journal

[dollyvee]

Rereading what I added yesterday and realizing how much "dancing around the truth" there was (and is though maybe not as much anymore). One the one hand, my biggest aim was to be honest, but on the other, it was like I just couldn't let people see these things about me. It's not like it was even really conscious either.

I found JB's talk about the infancy and toddler stages in childhood really pertinent as well. In infancy we need mirroring and unconditional love, which are non-verbal to an infant. "I'm so glad you're here, I'm so glad you're a girl, I want to be near you, to hold you, to love you." I don't think I had these, or a messed up version. I know my mother told me I was a "mistake," and how my gm cried when she found out I was a girl.

As a toddler we need to hear, "it's ok to wander and explore. It's ok to be angry, to say no. It's ok for you to do it and do it your way. I'll be here. You don't have to hurry. I'll give you all the time you need. I won't leave you."

When I was reading the above, I started thinking about how frustrated I get with t sometimes when she suggests things that I might be feeling, or connect it to what it might mean. I feel like just let me say it, or be it. Then I started thinking about how it was like with my grandmother and how maybe there was a way to "do" things. Like I was being corrected all the time. What's funny is I only have a vague memory, or feeling, of this happening with her at that age, and crossed it out when I wrote it out in my paper journal, putting question marks beside it. It's like I can't remember this, and was worried I was putting a false memory on it (because my gm loved me? That she meant well?). Then I wrote, "or that any protest or contrary idea other than how she was a loving person was always shot/guilted down." That I do have a very strong memory of it happening, especially from when I was a teenager. It just felt like light bulb moment that there was some pattern/dissociation happening from a young age where I wasn't allowed to believe something and it still affects my memory/thought processes today.

He also writes that, "each time we start something new, we trigger our infancy needs. After we secure and trust our new environment, the toddler part wants to explore and experiment." It reminded me of the times I felt that sort of free floating anxiety starting something new, and could never quite pin down why I would have that. I think it comes up a lot around people, and they think that I am fearful or not confident, which I don't really think is true. It's just dancing around, trying to manage this pretty much subconscious feeling coming up that I don't really understand. I can see now how not being welcomed into the world, to not be told how much, how happy people are, that I am here, might give me that feeling.

I feel like I am also working on giving up control to a higher power. I didn't actually realize what a challenge that is and how parts of me are opposed to that.

[NarcKiddo]

I've just been catching up on your journal and a lot of what you are writing about from the JB book is resonating with me. Particularly the parts about control a few posts back.

The comments about the childhood stages resonate hugely too. I am pretty sure I did not get much in the way of mirroring and unconditional love as an infant. Of course I cannot remember, but my mother told me regularly during my later childhood that I was a hideous-looking baby with googly eyes. She also told me my father did not want children, and certainly not girls. And although I cannot remember anything much prior to the age of six, I know that after that age I was not permitted to explore or take risks or do anything my way, so I cannot imagine I was permitted to do that as a toddler. Your comments and insights are very helpful. It seems like you are getting a lot of good healing work done right now and I am happy for you.

Thank you for sharing all of this.

[dollyvee]

Thank you NK. I'm sorry your mother said those things to you. I know how hurtful and awful it is to go through things like that. My mom used to call me Miss Piggy because of what I would eat, and tell me how "chubby/fat" I was compared to other kids. The adult part of me is like well who was the one feeding me? And another part that reframes it as projection and understands that she felt that way about herself, so she put it on me. However, thinking about it, I'm also reminded of the part of me who felt bad about myself for years, not being able to connect those dots.

It's also interesting that this comes up in dating and I don't even realize it. That I think I start to self sabotage/shut things down because I feel like he would like someone who is x, or has x qualities. That way of thinking about myself was very much reinforced by my m. It's not just the original abandonment, but the putting down afterwards too. I feel like I'm noticing how much abandonment comes up in dating and I'm not even aware that that's what it is. It usually goes there's someone and maybe there's a mutual interest, vet this person for all early red flags etc. Then if that's going well, I notice myself thinking about them, focusing on the good feelings (limerance?). However, I can also feel myself pulling away, and notice that I will be anxious if I'm going to see them again. This is where I think all the abandonment feelings come up and my brain goes to work trying to self-sabotage etc. But what I'm noticing is just the feeling of anxiety that's there and that I think that's abandonment stuff. I try to remind myself that I will be ok if things don't go well, if they end, but sometimes that feeling is fuzzyy and hard to hold on to. I feel like I'm putting my stuff on someone else and it kind of sucks because I don't really want to do that.

I feel like the way through is "radical honesty," and getting out of these ideas/fantasies in my head, but it feels so difficult/ worries me I guess because I feel like I've been punished for being myself in the past. I guess this is the point where the bottom just falls out. I guess I'm trying to be understanding and patient with myself as I go through this and hope that someone else is able to understand that as well.
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Coming back because I'm writing about the stuff above but also not about how hard it has been to do some things that I need to do (write some emails) and deal with some pretty big things that are happening. Just life stuff that has happened that I need to face involving bad business managers. It's been kicking around in the back of my mind how my gm had similar issues when she was around my age. It also brings me back to how there is always a focus on money in my family. And now I've made a "MISTAKE" by trusting someone (no being vigilant enough) that has to do with money. It will of course be ok, but it's just bringing up stuff which I then think I'm blocking out.
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I bought some lilies for my room and they're such an incredible vibrant pink <3

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I also think it's going to take a while for the infancy and toddler stages and reaffirmations to sink in. T has only been talking about it for seven years though in a more intellectual way. Now that I know/can fathom what these things look like, and what they're supposed to "feel" like, I think I can come back to it.

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I remembered this dream I had in April I think that was quite a powerful dream at the time. I think I may have written about it here, but can't remember. There were these two guys watching me, observing me, and it was because, or I had brought this demon energy back with me (that connected to my gf? something to do with the Second World War during which he grew up). I feel like it was dealing with a lot of the stuff now about being seen maybe and how difficult that is. I don't want to be observed because I am carrying around awful, generational toxic shame.

[Papa Coco]

Dolly,

I can picture the lilies in their vibrant colors. What a nice thing to do for yourself.

That's interesting that something today brought back the dream you had 8 months ago. Something must be similar about today as was happening in April. The dream sounds like it had a pretty deep impact. Your brain, or your IFS Parts, or even your angels may have been helping you access some feelings that are hoping to be addressed in some way.

Did you bring the dream to your T? My T loves it when I bring my dreams in. He is able to do some good deep work with me through the meanings and feelings that specific dreams bring up.

[dollyvee]

Thank you PC. They make the rooms smell great as well.

I did bring the dream to my t and another one I had had a few days before as both really stood out, and felt like there was a lot going on. I'm so reluctant to have people put their interpretations on dreams though because it's both deeply personal (as you mentioned with communication from a higher power(s)/ancestors etc if you believe in that) and, like now, you never know after some reflection/time what was/is coming up at the time. T suggested/thought however, that it might be a feeling similar to how I would have felt as a child where I was "all bad" etc. Now, in the light of the toxic shame stuff coming up, I can relate though am still reluctant to say it's all one thing.

I don't mean to be pedantic writing about this romantic interest stuff in my journal, it's just such a big source of anxiety. Well done for all of you that managed to somehow minimize those parts of you that were a barrier to this, but I haven't been able to effectively do that.

I had an experience with this person and was excited to see them and continue the conversation. Maybe that's the first flag. I've talked with t about the dampening of hope and how I try to minimize things like this because on some level I think things are never going to work out. On the other hand, I can recognize that that's a lot of pressure to put on something at the beginning. However, I don't think I recognize that I'm doing that emotionally, which I guess is part of the problem. Anyways, I took what they were saying to me as they could see I was eager and they were trying to let me down gently, explaining why they weren't going to be around. They were telling me how they were sore after working out, but my brain and body read the "cues." Of course the cues could be correct and I'm not just willing to believe it (I can see how people say I overthink things). Anyways, I just sort of said I hope you get some rest and went into the change room as we were both walking that way, which they said bye, but sort of curtly like they were upset I just walked away. This put me in a place of feeling lots of things and being hard on myself in an environment where it doesn't feel safe to do that.

I think I was acting from quite an anxious place, trying to figure out if they liked me or were interested. It's so hard to slow down my reactions in situations like this and is one of the reasons that I prefer to stay isolated. I don't feel like I can take his (or other peoples') behaviour in a "normal" way. It's easier to be nice, to keep a distance and dance around stuff like this because otherwise I could do something to upset someone else (?), do something wrong, or people will see my reactions and think I'm crazy/judge me etc and these are things that I can't control.

I guess underneath it all is the me who had to go through a rejection and subsequent humiliation which hurt very much. It's also reliving the feeling of I've hurt someone that cares about me by being myself, or I didn't say the right thing, how could I be so stupid etc? Tbf I don't really know this person and have no idea if they care about me, but the young parts need to feel that's true I think. So, they can believe (?) that he's not going to hurt me. It just sometimes feels like a cruel joke to keep going through this. I'm trying to step back I guess and see that these are just thoughts and not reality, but again, it's so hard to do that in the moment especially when I do have other experiences/instances of things not going well with other people.

[dollyvee]

I'm going to come back to the above because, funnily enough, the part in the JB book I'm reading right now has to do with dreams, and working with your inner life through dreams.

I haven't been very good lately at writing my dreams down when I wake up. Sometimes I do it all the time. However, other times there is a block and it's like I just don't want to. I woke up the other morning with a vague memory of a dream, but didn't write it down. It was like something in me didn't want to evaulate it, or it just didn't make sense. On going to bed the night before, I had asked for a dream about the situation with the person I talked about above.

After reading the part in the JB book today, I decided to write down what I remembered of the dream. There was a friend from Uni who was holding something in his hand. He was always very calm, dependable, though maybe a bit arrogant at times. His step son was there and was grown. He had grown into someone with emotional/behavioural issues and was "all over the place." Looking at it now, it's kind of a reflection of my own inner world of being calm, dependable on one hand, and out of control on the other. What's interesting is that I had a memory come up of being with a friend in high school who came with me to visit me at my mother's house. I think I got overly emotional with my mom and went to that state/place that I regressed to when trying to deal with her/get her to understand something etc. My friend was said something along the lines of, "what are you even acting like right now?" Who are you essentially? I guess like it was my fault (?) that I was so worked up (I think because my m was refusing me something). I guess the act felt shaming in itself that she didn't understand what it was to deal with my m and why couldn't I just control my emotions. I was the problem in other words. One of the instances I think where I learned that people don't understand (though at 18/19 who has a clear picture of narcissism?).

It just made me think about the dependable person I had to be, and the emotional person I wasn't allowed to be. I can see this coming up I guess in relation to this person. Does it mean that I can't express both sides? Or maybe that I want to integrate and be able to express both sides of me? (rhetorical).

I know that my m had her own traumas that she went through that made her who she was, but oh man, I think it made me angry too (and probably powerless) when people took her side too.

I think there is also the experience that both my m and gm were these two kinds of people. Nice and demure and then fly off the handle, like flip flopping between two personalities, and I've tried my best to suppress (and of course learn and grow from|) whatever instance of that that would come up. My m and gm very much both had abandonment trauma and I guess that is maybe what is coming up with this person, or my own version (inherited or otherwise) of that.

[Papa Coco]

Hi Dolly,

I'm no expert on dream reading, but your assumption seems sound to me. It's making you feel that disconnect between being in control and out of control at the same time. Or of being loved for who you are versus being loved for what you can do for someone.

I've learned a lot about myself through dreams. Some dreams feel like dreams: Like my brain is working through things. Other dreams feel like visions or even visitations from other people. I think all are valid. All are meant to help us in one way or another.

And I really resonate with your romance situation. I was living in so much of the same distress and self-questioning that you describe until I met Coco. I believe that for me it was my fear of abandonment that made me feel incomplete without a partner. Now, I still have all those same abandonment issues around my casual friendships, and even with my own children.

I don't know if my oldest son loves me or hates me. I finally stopped bothering him by wishing him happy birthday every year, and he hasn't bothered to connect with me since. I kept connecting with him, but he kept ghosting me and cancelling every lunch date on the morning of, and I finally decided that I don't believe he wants me in his life on any level. What few final and public Facebook posts I saw from him pushed me away for good. He has apparently become a staunch trump supporter and had only horrible things to say about his mom and I about how brainwashed and stupid we are and that if we ever die he's going to give his inheritance to trump. HIs exact words to the general public were "I don't want anything from them." I took that as a cue that I'm no longer welcome in his life, and I did what I do: I  disconnected 100%, or what the trauma experts call "I fled". I don't know if I'm right or wrong to do what I did. I'm his father. Should I be bigger than that? Should I keep proving my love for him in hopes that one day he'll come to realize what his politics is costing him? What I do know is, it's very hard to know what other people are thinking, especially when they give off these strange cues while I'm living with abandonment issues.

My biggest question is: Where's the line between what's really happening versus what I perceive to be happening with another person? How do I know for sure when to pursue and when to walk away?

I know it's not exactly the same as what you're going through, but not knowing if I should pursue my son or let him go helps me to resonate with the frustration you must be feeling over trying to read these romantic relationships that keep coming up for you.

To make my own personal abandonment situation even more confusing: I have known a lot of people in my long life. A lot of them were important to me in a lot of ways, and a lot of those gave me signals that led me to believe they wanted me gone. Then, occassionally, years or even decades later, I find out that some of them felt a loss when I vanished on them. I had left because I didn't feel like they liked me at all, then 20 years later I found out they liked me a lot and felt abandoned when I left them. That only adds to my confusion. HOW DO I KNOW when I need to pursue versus walk away? It's a question I'm still looking for answers for.

[dollyvee]

Thank you for sharing that PC. I'm sorry that things are like that with your son. It made me think of my brother and the things he has said about me, and for a moment I felt the pain around family that a lot of us have to go through. For me, it's just something that I don't deal with I guess. I can also see how going through versions of that might make one reluctant to open up to other people. We don't know what other people are thinking and we can only go by their actions and set good boundaries. But tbh sometimes I still don't know what that looks like. I was explaining to t about a woman in the sauna that gossips about other people and she commented that she was crossing other peoples' boundaries. It didn't even cross my mind that that's what it was. I just knew that it made me feel very hypervigilant.

My biggest question is: Where's the line between what's really happening versus what I perceive to be happening with another person? How do I know for sure when to pursue and when to walk away?

Exactly. I feel like I have to rely on my internal antenna but it takes time and going through these things I guess to be able to figure out what it's telling me, and what is hypervigilance/old stuff as well as what is fantasy. To go through all the shame and feelings coming up instead of trying to lock them away and then be hard on myself because I'm not this "other" person that would do those things (whomever that might be). I feel like it's more the former lately and less the latter which is progress. Though, if I'm honest, parts of me still feel like I did something wrong and need to apologize. However, I also feel like there are times like this when I have misunderstood something, or have jumped to conclusions because of past stuff and want to say, I interpreted what you said as x, but at what point is it over-explaining?

I'm trying to ground myself by saying, these are just thoughts in my head and not reality. The other reality is is that I've had a lineage of relationships modelled for me with messed up, controlling narc men (just processing the gf stuff here I think) and narc women. Relationships were never safe on that side of the family, even if they were presented to be. So, I guess trying not to be too hard on myself for my reactions and hoping someone can be understanding about that.

[Papa Coco]

Dolly,

I share the sentiment that parts of me (also) feel like I always need to apologize. We both probably know this is trauma. Our FOOs had us in their control when our brains were wiring, and this is how they wired us.

My T does this thing with me when I express real fear around real things, like climate change and losing our democracy or whether I can trust someone or not. Sometimes, rather than sit there and ask me why I'm afraid, or try to diagnose the root of my fear, he looks me in the eye and says, "I'm afraid too."

It's surprising to me how good it feels to have someone just admit it and share in the fear with me. It is so validating to know that he sometimes has to decide who to trust also and that he is willing to admit it to me. It validates that my fear is normal because he feels it too. It helps calm the loneliness that comes with feeling isolated and shunned by family. When people tell me I shouldn't be afraid of my relationships or safety, I automatically feel shame around how I "should" be feeling differently than I do. When T just sits with me and says, "we can be afraid together" It feels honest and bonding. And that bond helps me a lot.

For now, I'll just say that I typically feel that same worry with you that I can't determine if my inner antenna is picking up bad vibes from the people I'm with, or if it's picking up--and acting on--the trauma from the people of my past. I don't have any better solution for myself than just keep working toward progress rather than perfection as I navigate my social life with this trauma anchor chained to my leg.

[dollyvee]

Thank you PC  I don't know if it's an "EF" but I have been quite emotional, with tears the past few days and lots of stuff is coming up, which I think has to do with the scenario you mentioned. I am not very good with connection and I think this is where those tears are coming from. Connecting to another person, even just for a talk, or showing myself in an authentic way I guess, brings these feelings up. I know that having someone connect to me and say, "I feel afraid" would be a similar scenario, and I would feel a lot of resistance about that. Sometimes, with my first t, I would just start crying (well I would get teary) and he would ask me where it's coming from and I couldn't say. This "stuff," or feelings I guess, are usually very well hidden. Coming out of hiding, through connection, I think brings this stuff with it.

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I've been clipping some little posts from instagram (ah, instagram therapy) but they are nice little reminders too of what healthy guidelines might be:

- listening in full and inquiring about their intent, if confused before responding. It's important to recognize that we all filter information differently. Sometimes how something is intended isn't how we receive it.

- taking responsibility for what we hear, perceive, understand, react to and interpret.

- (on self sabotage) thank your brain for trying to protect you and remind it that it's not actually effective. Instead, learn to challenge your own thoughts and stop treating them like facts.

- (on self sabotage) cultivate a practice of self-trust. Because you know in your soul that you will be okay no matter what, all the sudden attaching to someone else seems a lot less scary.

- a secure partnership requires both people to simultaneously tolerate their own distress while responding to their parter's distress. This means managing your emotional needs and trying to understand your partner's needs as well.

[dollyvee]

Trying to find some space to deal with the feelings that have been coming up and I rewatched a talk that I've commented on here before, but I don't think I summarized? I'd have to check. These are my thoughts/summary/paraphrases and haven't used direct quotes all the time.

Moving Beyond Fear: The Ultimate Protection Is Within You
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jn0g05e8QIs&list=PLaSy-g6A5sG3Jvh8Ru5k--D_0VUlZPpEw&index=19&t=1421s

Rewatching it after connecting to the insights made about the infancy and toddler stages by John Bradshaw, has maybe given some insights about the nature of cptsd for me, or the nature of my cptsd after growing up in a family where you were not allowed to have an identity.

The infancy stage is the first developmental stage of our personality as I understand it where we are mirrored by a mother (usually) and told (non-verbally) how welcome we are to be here, how much they want to hold us, to love us. There is a feeling of unconditional love. I think when we do not get that, for example growing up in narcissistic families where one is not able to mirror back to the children at that age and confirm/validate them, we have an experience of fear, or this fear of empty space. We have no connection to "mother."

TWR describes losing connection to unbounded sacred space/infinite possibility when we try to identify with a relationship (family, husband, wife) to get over/because we feel [a] lack in love; in order to fill this empty space, but in doing so, we obscure the connection to that space or infinite awareness (called "mother"). So, from the very beginning, as children of NPD parent(s), there is a loss of identity and a need to fill that space with some sort of secure job, relationship, idea in life so that you're protected; you're ok.

We seek to find reassurances through people (and jobs etc) that you are ok, but you are identifying with something that you are not, which is why these feelings of being ok and protected never seem to stick. For example, suddenly that person disappears and you have that empty space back and the person who you were identifying with (that part in you), no longer feels supported. You are experiencing that empty space and fear because you have been identifying with the thing you have created in your mind (fantasy etc). I feel like children of narcissists have had this from the beginning, the feeling, fear of the "void" because there was no support from the beginning. Only that empty space.

This is where I think I need to do some work and maybe where the difficulty comes in. He says that you can never be lost; you were just too connected to something else [other] than you were to your own being. Of course, this is where I also think teachings, and concepts, like this can be difficult for people with this sort of background. Maybe it's a part (very much in fact that sounds like my gm saying, it just isn't that easy; the world doesn't work like that). Or maybe it's a part that took on some of those beliefs. In my family, you there wasn't a "hopeful" outlook. However, there is also the question of where is the line between hope and fantasy, which I often think blur for me (because of having those certain unfulfilled needs as a baby etc), hoping that this person will maybe be what I'm looking for and (dissociating) into fantasy instead of acknowledging the reality of what is happening (because I believe I am a bad person/not good etc and they will validate me).

At worst, we identify with a condition: I am not good. I think that growing up without that support from infancy and the feeling of being wanted as a baby, as well as being a receptacle for all the projections of a m's, gm's, gf's etc own lack of self worth and shame would have led me to take on the idea, and feeling, that I am not good. In relationships/with romantic interests etc this also comes up as I am not good in a fear of being seen. I am attributing my sense of self worth to another person (as much as I think I'm not/would not like to). TWR asks what are we saying to ourself when we repeat this mantra? He also says that we do not have to repeat this mantra. Just because it comes up doesn't mean we have to take it on. It doesn't mean that we can do everything, but we can say I would like to try, it would be interesting to do. We can redirect those ideas into a sense of hope, an optimistic, lively energeticness. There are possibilities.

"Fear is experiencing the emptiness without the feeling of warmth, awareness, and completeness after losing something you have been identifying with."

"Sacred space produces illumination; it illuminates the warmth within you, to be able to say, "I love you" without identifying with something else."

"Somebody put you in that space to feel that emptiness in that way. You have to be strong enough to say, 'this space is a new space, I need to illuminate this space, to be aware of this space.' You are exploring the awareness and perfection of Self with a warmth quality; [without an identity] which you would have never let go of, but they took it away. Thank them, thank the situation. Look at it as an opportunity." You can never lose who you are, you can only lose an identity.

He says that we also have a fear of the unknown which makes us feel uncertainty because we don't know what's going to happen. But it also opens up possibility of everything that you don't know to happen. Any place that you feel limited and closed, that's the place that you need to open up. It's personal and experiential (so varies from person to person).

"I don't know what's going to happen, but I know that there are infinite possibilities to what could happen and I'm so hopeful to the possibilities of spontaneous perfection. It's not an end, it's a beginning. Fear is preparing to ending something and that is the great opportunity to begin something properly in the right way which will help oneself's deep sense of self development."

He speaks about how when we feel fear, we go outside ourselves for "protection." There was no sense of protection as a baby with a narcissistic parent. That identity, sense of safety wasn't given at the beginning and are looking for it outside ourselves. I do this all the time. These men feel overpowering, will there be another one to step in and protect me. I don't know how much I actually act on this, but the thoughts are there. I feel a sense of relief from governments etc about protecting me if something happens (which did not during covid etc imo). But, he says, at some point you realize there is nothing outside the moment that can help end something, and must look to the inner refuge/ultimate refuge for protection. I see this as somewhat parallel to John Bradshaw's idea in giving up control to a higher power. Neither trying to control (my life, emotions, outcomes, other people), or anything outside myself, is going to give me that sense of protection that I've been looking for since I was a baby.

"None of the things you identify with will protect you; you need something beyond all of those things which is the ultimate refuge within oneself. This does not mean that one tradition is better etc." This makes me thing of my gf where there was a sense of righteousness and a way to do things. It was his way or nothing. If you had a different idea you would be stupid or wrong, and he would laugh at how you could be so foolish. I realize how much I had to take this on in a way (as sometimes it was practical, "common sense" stuff that was actually helpful. My gf was smart, which makes it a challenge to let go of. He did achieve monetary security in his life after a lot of hardships and challenges - being a refugee, living through WWII, but I also think of how dependent the women in the family were on that, looking to be taken care of (?), and how he would use money as a means to control. He didn't like some choices you were making, that's fine he would just cut you off. He was always right and you would be wrong. Of course, then my ideas about protection, sense of security (identity), and love would then be challenged, or activated. Money means control but also survival, and taking care of me means love. I didn't clock why when the guy I have been talking to told me he worked in finance (with a sense of assurance) that I sort of felt something in me sink. It's been on me to be self-sufficient and to not rely on anyone for money or anything (at least this is what I'm telling myself/protecting myself with).

He goes on to talk about how the way to the ultimate refuge is through the three doors in the body, mind, heart or stillness of the body, silence of the (monkey) mind and keeping an open and focused heart. I feel like those of us with cptsd/trauma backgrounds have specific challenges with concepts like this because sometimes our bodies cannot be still with memories, or we had to be still/freeze for safety; to be silent meant survival for there would have been negative consequences (fear of annihilation) for speaking up; and keeping an open heart would mean feeling like we had to continue to love those who were hurting us at the expense of ourselves and our boundaries. 

Some fianl thought are that I feel like there is shock that comes along with the loss of identity for a child (baby) who experiences this which is then replicated throughout life as they search for that mirror, or identity in other people/jobs/ideas/forms of security whatever they might be. I feel like this shock/fear might be hard to manage because there was no safe mirror from the outset, with no reliable idea/replication of "mother." So, while difficult, perhaps it's also an experience of detachment, which comes with an (immediate) connection to the unbounded sacred space though with a sense of fear to be worked through with a hopeful outlool.

Just my thoughts and ramblings.

[dollyvee]

I tried to put this into practice yesterday when feelings of shame (?), or feelings of not being good (?) would come up, and would instead try to think that this is an opportunity to see that I am worthy of love, or a positive relationship. Maybe I could have started at, I would like to try to have a positive relationship. However, this was much harder to get a hold of than I imagined. It's like that thought goes so far back that I couldn't get to the basis of it, if that makes sense. That maybe the need for control, and ability to not see a positive outcome, was quite strong. Maybe I am trying to control the outcome in some way by doing this though. If I say these things to myself, then I might have a chance of getting the relationship (thing) I want in my mind, and am not really open to the infinite possibilities (including the ones I'm trying to avoid - rejection and hurt). So, to some degree am trying to control the outcome. I think this is human and we all do it of course, but maybe it's helpful to me to be aware of that, and to sit with that part from way, way back and try to see if it could take even a little bit of this on board.

I've also been thinking about how I coped with all those feelings coming up, or going back to that time when I was in my late teens/early 20s dealing with this stuff, trying to find my way and the life I wanted while the other part/half was all over the place emotionally. I guess it felt out of control, to use a word that has been coming up lately. I remember being at my first t's office in uni (before I left), sitting in the chair just crying and not always being able to articulate what was going on. There was a feeling of weakness too I think, that I couldn't get a hold of this. Maybe also a sense of shame about it in relation to other people. My second t wanted to diagnose me as either (slightly) histrionic or BPD because I wasn't able to deal with the emotions that would come up. He was a good t though, and suggested my m was a narcissist. Although, I'm surprised about the lack of awareness about having a narcissist as a m could do to you emotionally. I guess I felt like I was blamed with a diagnosis, and it was my fault that I couldn't control these things. So, I pushed the emotions down and kept going after the life I had thought I wanted. I was still in contact with my family at this time and his suggestion of NPD didn't cross my mind to look into until 10 years later. I think I just took it on that these things were somehow my fault, and if I could just fix myself it would all work out. My family would see where I'm coming from, I would be understood etc. So, I think I kept these things pushed down. It was also challenging at work to make a career with all these things coming up, and I don't think it felt safe to deal with them either.
 
For me, I think if something didn't feel "safe," I would try to push it down, stay a distance, or cut and run. I don't necessarily feel like that's a healthy way to address things and think I'm trying to work through that.

[NarcKiddo]

I think you are doing fantastic work. Good for you. 

[dollyvee]

Thank you NK    - t is on christmas hiatus and I think I'm workshopping some things here

So, I think I inherited a lot of ideas about relationships from my FOO. Over the years there's a lot of things that I'm aware of intellectually, but seem to keep coming back to, or popping up emotionally. One is that x partner (whoever they might be) is going to leave me for someone else. I think this is abandonment trauma passed down, but again, is one of those ideas/beliefs that just sort of gets woven into your mind somehow. When I was cleaning out my gf's house after he passed, I found a letter from my gm where she wrote, you're going to leave me for someone younger (or something along those lines. Part of me wishes I really would have kept it now). On the flip side, my gf had also accused my gm cheating in the past (she said she never did). Her psychologist reports that I found a few years ago, talk about how she could never fully invest in the relationship with my gf. I also remember her telling me when I was around 4/5/6 (?) that one day I would get older and not want her anymore. My m also had a lot of stuff around her f leaving the family (or being asked to leave) when she was around 4.

As dysfunctional as their relationship was, my gf and gm also couldn't leave each other really, and continued to be friends after the divorce (after about a decade of really bad relations).

I guess this is coming up for me now because one of my first impressions were that this guy wants the attention of these younger women that around. Of course, that could be true. I don't 100% trust my inner processes about this though, even though I sort of acted on it and initially distanced myself. I don't know how much is old stuff/not my stuff that is coming up. I thought, I could ask for more information and find out and, even though that seems like the most reasonable approach, tbh, it seems like a foreign idea as weird as that sounds. Like I have enough (space in the world?) to be able to do that?? I can make a decision about something (well not exactly something but a relationship which I think I was at the mercy of growing up)?

I don't know what exactly is coming up. I read something about what to do if the fear of being cheated on is ruining your relationship and it said focus on the fact that you will be ok if something like that happens. (I don't think it's expressly this fear that's coming up for me, maybe just that they're not genuine? I don't know). However, I do think that I will be ok if something that like happens. What I do feel like would be an issue is that I should have known better, and why didn't I trust my instincts (instincts that were running off a first impression/very little information), and how could I be so stupid, which very much sounds like my gf/family. The self-attack after a humiliation. Because it would be, how could I be so stupid to think that I had anything to offer, that they would be interested in me? They would then be holding the key to my self-worth (as I think my family did growing up). That is very much a feeling that I felt growing up and there's the part of me that wants to protect me from that humiliation at all costs. Of course, these aree just thoughts in my head about something that has not even happened.

In my family, relationships brought security, not happiness and you stuck by all sorts of ill treatment for security. I think I grew up having to do this too because I didn't have anything else as a young child. So, in my life interestingly, I've focused on career over relationships, which was also a focus on security. I can't be in a relationship if I'm not secure etc. I feel like I've forgone relationships (though I've dated and said I want a relationship) because it messes up my idea of security. My gm was very focused too on me not being dependent on a man, and I guess I can see that (though it came in a very high dramatic look how much I've messed up my own life, I don't want these things for you, I'm such an awful person type of way). To even start to actually show up in an authentic way, is bringing a lot of this stuff/feelings up.

Anyways, the thing I read said to focus on what you would be afraid of for yourself and your future if someone cheated on you. What I came up with was:

- somehow my security would be tied to them; that it would mean a threat to my security (identity)

- that I had made a bad choice when I should have "known better" (gf); how could I trust someone (you can only trust your family - gm)

It's kind of, again, that damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario that I knew so well growing up. I guess I can focus on the part of me that knows that I will be ok, that things have worked out so far. That the adult me has taken steps to maybe be in Self and help all the younger parts that didn't have that growing up. And, the really difficult one rn, that I'm not a bad person as well as, that person is not trying to hurt me. I'm amazed at how quickly I can be put back into a place where I am on high alert for danger, that someone is trying to hurt me. It's being in this place an dealing with x romantic interest at the same time that feels really disorientating.

[dollyvee]

So, what I feel like I'm coming back to in a way is that I've had to show people the truth about their behaviour (to save myself as a child), and I feel/think there's a sense of loneliness and having to sacrifice relationships along with that.  I stood up to my m and sf and received their treatment/punishment in return. I guess this sounds easy on paper, and looks like the right thing, but I think in my mind it works as, "I'm the one who made my mother not love me by standing up for myself, or look at all the pain I caused her by my (selfish) actions." I think it makes me quite ready to sacrifice myself (because I blame myself) for someone else, and I'm ready to make things work, but in the end I'll still have to show people the truth about their actions to save myself, or sacrifice the relationship. (I'm not sure about this last part as it doesn't 100% make sense yet; maybe it's a young part).

But I think I'm coming from a false selse (or shame self) because I feel like I have to make it work vs the me who stood up (the authentic self) because that person is flawed and couldn't/can't be loved (?).