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I've always thought emotional abuse was, for me, the most damaging long term. I kind of figured that if more research would ever be done it might be found that the emotional aspect of every type of abuse is the worst aspect of it, that part of every act of abuse that carries with it the message that you're subhuman, an object to be used and thrown away.

Physical abuse left me with different symptoms, it gave me physical PTSD flashbacks which are awful but it's the emotional aspect of the physical abuse that I endured that broke me. Well, it may just be my experience  for me, the conclusions I reached about who and what I was, and about others and the world I was in were the most damaging part of physical abuse, too. And emotional abuse is so much worse I have no words to describe it, because society doesn't have words for it yet.
On the contrary, it seems to have plenty of ways of saying it's all in my paranoid, selfish mind, or something similarly invalidating.

I don't know but I think there's literally no research about it, and public awareness of emotional abuse is almost nonexistent because it's a huge blind spot. Maybe at least 3 factors keep it so invisible (as you can tell, I've been thinking about emotional abuse for a while...) - abusers' need to keep it out of sight and the power abusers can have in society, society's tendency to blame the victims, and victims' confusion and shame and fear of being disbelieved and blamed yet again.

I started thinking more about the implications of emotional abuse after reading the book "Get out of your mind & into your life", the name seems kind of cheesy, I know  maybe they chose it on purpose. It describes the process we go through when something innocuous becomes meaningful to us - for example triggers and EF's. It left me thinking a lot, and more convinced than ever that emotional abuse is far, far, far worse than I ever imagined.

In a way, it's the perfect crime. We, as in humane human-beings, use language to convey ideas and emotions. Emotional abuse takes advantage of language and warps it to torture a person.
No pesky proof, you can't have any tests done like you might try to do if it were other types of abuse, no one can take pictures of bruises, your victims look great on the surface. It's their mind that's being abused, sometimes using the most violent techniques imaginable without leaving any traces, and all the while gaslighting the victim into being so confused they'll blame themselves for life.

In the worst types of emotional abuse, when it's psychological abuse done by a sadist like my F who isn't doing it because of his own pain but because it brings him pleasure (yikes), what they're doing is triggering you in the most powerful way they can think of. They understand triggers so well that they just go ahead and push that part of your mind directly. It's the perfect crime. No need to move a finger, you just think of the worst trigger to fit the moment and plant it in your helpless, confused victim's mind and watch with pleasure as they self destruct.  I think it's enormous Trauma.

Blueberry, I think it's so indicative of what emotional abuse really is when T's try to look for the 'real' trauma. If emotional abuse isn't big T trauma, how could therapy be so effective? If one can build a person so well, the other can break them just as powerfully or even more so because breaking us is so much easier than making us whole again.
You've gone through big trauma, and you're still here.
I'm very glad you're still here, I have no doubt in my mind the things you went through were far more dangerous than anyone realized.

Rocket,

Sounds like one * of an EF  I'm so sorry you're in so much pain, how can I help so this load can maybe be a bit lighter for you?

I just read something you wrote a bit earlier here on your journal, you said:

I just keep remembering trying to suppress my frustration to ask for help at all and not be such a burden on my parents.

I can completely understand the feeling that you're a burden. And the overwhelming feeling that says to you that you're self absorbed. I'm told I am... I'm called "psychotic", "monster", "waste of oxygen" and so on and I'm convinced I am. So the depths of these feelings are a darkness that I've visited very often, lately I'm there 24 hours a day. These feelings aren't frightening to me, I know they exist and they don't change how I feel about you.

But even if the feeling is shouting at you that you're all those bad things, you still aren't to us. To me, you've never been a burden. Quite the opposite. I just can't imagine seeing you that way. If you were told you were a burden, I don't like that one bit. The way I see it, little Rocket wasn't a burden either. Feeling like a burden didn't make little Rocket one. It makes no sense to me, you're a full fledged complicated living being with different feelings and ideas and habits. You keep changing and growing, and you're not an object meant for anybody else's enjoyment. You're not a product to be used, you're a person.
You don't need to be happy or self assured to be kept safe and cared about.

Whether you're able to be there for yourself or not at all right now, you're not alone. You're in my heart, and on my mind.

Boatsailrose,

I agree with California Dreaming, I was wondering as well what might have triggered it. I guess for me self hatred is always there, but when it's extremely strong there's always something recent that sparked it and it ignited, and fuels one EF after another.
Do you remember when it started to escalate this time? Do you remember where you were? What you were doing, what you were thinking?

for me it's usually related to strong shame. Did anything like that maybe happen a few weeks ago? It could have been something small, just a second, a tiny exchange with someone that paralyzed you and then your old habits took over, thinking they were protecting you.

I think EF's can last weeks at a time, even years. It's very possible, in my experience. This high level can absolutely go back down again, and our body and mind may need your help to do it. Your body may be too tired and locked into this habit to do it on its own when it's this strong and feels like your survival depends on hating yourself as hard as you can. Asking questions and looking at it from different angles may help it start the ball rolling.

Another thing that helps me if I'm courageous enough to do it is mindfulness. It's rough when my self hatred is high, though, at first. But worth it. It can help me weaken this internal raging beast to a slightly more manageable size, sometimes.
Maybe self hatred needs to be told "Enough is enough!" if it gets its way it goes nuts with its own power.

I'm in a similar spot lately, you're absolutely not alone.

Thanks Blueberry, I meant SH 
But SH and SI are so closely linked that everything I wrote above applies to SI too.

Now that I think back, I didn't start biting my gums till I tried very hard to stop gnawing my teeth so it makes perfect sense the two are very similar.
Blueberry, imagining you doing it day and night as a teenager leaves my heart aching. You must have been in so much pain.

Maybe SH that isn't conscious is actually sadder than conscious SH because it's so habitual that you no longer need to think about it.
But yeah, I bet this type is very common though if I had to see a dentist I'd be very ashamed at what it must look like. I don't think there's one millimeter in my mouth that's not bruised and scarred... oh well... 
(This is why I fought so hard to stop the stronger types of SH, because of the shame that I felt about them. It was so painful that the relief from doing them stopped being worth it anymore. If that makes sense?)
It felt like my urges to SH, strong as they were, were lying to me. They were trying to make a promise they couldn't keep.

California Dreaming,
I love what you said about choosing to cultivate SI or let it pass, what a powerful statement. I wish I had that much mental power! Wow!

Deep Blue,
I wonder... you got me thinking about the heating pad. Do you feel self neglect is SH? Like for example not eating well or not taking care of one's health?
I guess there are much more layers to SH than I thought.

Rocket,
Thanks so much, I feel less guilty about just letting my body be now.

Shameful topic, this, I guess. And I'm not good with shame - or should I say I'm exceptionally skilled and experienced at feeling shame

Do you mean people here at OOTS say that to other members because it isn't something I see much if ever here.  Or did you mean members complain about it being said to them by others on other forums?

Oops, sorry that was unclear. I meant to say many people here mention having been told "Just get over it..!" by other people they talked to elsewhere. So being told that seems to be something that many of us share. Sadly...

I know when I'm told to just get over it I shut up instantly, it feels like being slapped in the face. Last time someone I saw as a close friend told to "just get over it" was 4 years ago and it left its mark on me, I can still remember where and when it was and how I pretended everything was fine afterward even though I wanted to die inside. I couldn't imagine ever saying that to anyone else, and no one here would. The forums here are a kind, non judgmental, sane place.

Hi Bhupendra 

I can relate to so much of what you describe. To not being able to say 'no' (I've improved a lot in the past year, but till then I just didn't know saying 'no' was an option for me. I didn't know I had a right to say it or to dislike or like things).

And people's clueless responses. "Just get over it" is one response I see repeating itself here on the forums.
Personally, I have a dissonance there: whenever anyone says something clueless like that I wish they'd suffer for a second so they could be more empathetic to others, but I also hope they'll never suffer even 1% of what we here went through (or still go through). I hope they'll never have to understand a thing, just continue to be blissfully clueless if it means the sort of pain you and I went through can be spared from them.

But I do wish they were just a bit wiser. Just a little bit. Sometimes..? For a fleeting moment, before they regressed right back to "Toughen up!" 
Please don't toughten up, on the contrary, I hope you soften toward yourself. Maybe that's a way to gain more control over such pain?

Maybe trauma can, over time, become like a vague, manageable chronic illness. Like an old scar that sometimes aches when the weather changes. We take care of ourselves on a daily basis and the symptoms subside, sometimes disappearing during remissions and other times they flare up and you need more intense work done temporarily. I don't know but it seems to me like a realistic way of looking at any sort of chronic pain, trauma pain included.

I'm glad you found us. I hope from the depths of my heart for you that you'll live, not just survive. I think that's a powerful statement.

Rocket,

You know, I get what you're saying but I see it a different way: writing and reading here helps you see your own habits and patterns. For example, realizing you have this strong need to be seen and heard. This is crucially important, once you see it you can learn more about it. You can't take care of a wound that was invisible before. I think that's one of the things connecting to others can help us achieve. It's very hard to do on your own.

I think it's maybe a matter of balance. Alone and together, complementing each other. No feedback can be dangerous because we easily cling to our own thoughts, and with nothing to counteract them it's hard to know which ones are good for us and which aren't. Self awareness can be harder that way.

And it can be more lonely too but that's a different topic 

I know you can keep yourself entertained and busy. You don't feel bored being alone. But that doesn't necessarily mean it's good for you or others either, it may just mean it's easier and less confusing. Sometimes a bit of confusion isn't a bad thing, growing pains for example.

Talking to others (here, and in other settings) can maybe help you watch more closely what you feel when you realize that you have a need for something.
When you want or need something, do you feel insecure and want to pull away? Does it become a trigger? What are the ways to tend to respond to these sort of triggers? Is part of it unrealistically self-denying, if so how much, when, where? What is it like when that happens? What helps you become more secure? All of these are questions that talking to others can help you explore.

Also, I don't think wanting things makes you clingy. One doesn't lead to the other. You have every right to need and want all sorts of things, from security to meaning. Having needs and wishes doesn't make you clingy, it doesn't mean you bother anybody, it makes you... well, very human.
At least, that's how I see it.

P.S.
I share the feeling, so I don't think the feeling that you're describing is "wrong", it's where you're at right now and that's good enough for me, it's what it is. I have an extremely hard time asking for anything or wanting anything from others, I'm so used to being rejected all the time that I feel very anxious around it.
The way I understand it, my needs were rejected and ridiculed and used against me since I was born, so I learned to reject them, ridicule them and use them against me by myself. At least that way I had a false sense of control over the situation, and I was less likely to get the full force of abuse. But it's a horrible medicine because it means I keep abusing myself and neglecting myself.

I don't know if you relate to it, but that's my point: not knowing is what makes human interaction so interesting. This is one area of life where, by definition, everything is messy and we have essentially have no control over what happens next. We can only do our best and often - usually - watch the complete chaos that may follow, then find and make order out of the chaos and start again. It can be frightening, I know it is for me. But just being frightened in itself isn't a good enough reason to stop doing something. You can be frightened, it's part of life sometimes.
Maybe a more interesting question is: is this anxiety, or is it only fear? How can I try to turn anxiety into manageable fear, so I can do things that are good for me and others even when they frighten me?

Maybe.

Hi Snookiebookie 

There's lots of information in the thread about it that Blueberry mentioned, I think. So I won't rewrite stuff I probably already said there, I just want to say:
This is a question many people wonder about, it seems. Me included, the reason being I was misdiagnosed with BPD when I tried to break free of abuse and the irreparable harm this did is incalculable.
I think cptsd and BPD are very different and therapists who confuse them may be doing an incredibly dangerous thing. Lives can be destroyed by this confusion.

Also, sometimes the behaviors of people with BPD are what seem to cause cptsd in their victims. So for me, as someone who has cptsd as a result of abuse at the hands of a long list of personality disordered people, being mistakenly seen myself as a person with a supposed personality disorder is retraumatizing, victim blaming, painful, gaslighting... all of the above.
Confusing cptsd and BPD may confuse cause and result, and then rather than helping the victim it can end up simply blaming the victim and helping their abusers get away with it yet again.

So yeah, interesting and important question. Discussing it may save some people some extra pain.

Hyper vigilance is related to it, for sure. I think for me it's two additional things (more than two actually, but two that are caused by cptsd maybe?):

The first is maybe the fact that safety and danger are totally mixed up in my mind, I had to become close to dangerous people and pretend they're safe enough to be around so I confuse the two, which leads me to really not knowing how to trust my own feelings.

And the second is that as a result, after a long enough list of abusers as an adult, I just gave up. I don't have any trust in people anymore, I don't have the necessary energy for it anymore.
Last time I actively tried was a couple of years ago. I was hurt very badly and I'm pretty much unable to try again now. I sort of compartmentalized it in my head: I care deeply about other people's needs but I don't know if I'd be able to believe anyone cares about my own anymore. In my experience, they don't.

All of which doesn't really apply here on OOTS, which gives me the feeling that a huge part of why it's so hard for us is that we feel so misunderstood. Here on OOTS I'm willing to mess up, feel rejected, feel confused, but it's all doable and okay because I know people here know cptsd and my sore spots are understandable to them. They're of my own kind.... I won't be victim blamed. It's different.

And in general, it does take energy to get close to others when you're in pain, to bridge the gap and get close to someone else. It takes vulnerability (which we suck at, I guess) and the willingness to be hurt, which we literally don't possess, and emotional resilience and self confidence and a lot of other things that are so difficult with cptsd.

And there are circumstances beyond our control. Age and so many other factors...

Hi Alias 

My mon told me she used to be consistently ignored by her own mom. Her mom was a narcissist who would just ignore her own daughter for months at a time, since she was a baby. It sounds like severe neglect and emotional abuse to me, and I can see its effects on my mom now, many decades later. It's no small thing, nor is the emotional unpredictable home mess that you describe. I'm so sorry you had to go through all of it.

Also, repeating what we know best seems to sadly be common. Throughout my life I've fallen under the control of abusers over and over again like your dreadfully abusive relationship as a teenager. Childhood abuse can too easily just "naturally" continue on as adult abuse.

I think people overlap here on the site and there's absolutely no requirement restrict yourself to just the childhood / adult section. Maybe you can contribute to both and read in both? Each aspect of cptsd may give you an added way of looking at yourself.
Childhood onset or adult onset, cptsd is cptsd. No matter when it started, taking care of yourself now is essentially the same.

Maybe you simply belong here, no matter which sub-parts of "here" you pick first. There are so many sub forums, all are yours to join and try out. I'm glad you found your way here.

I've stopped SI about two decades ago. It was driving my self hatred power-crazy so I decided to quit cold turkey and ignored all urges to repeat it, till the urges all subsided over the years. It was rough but totally successful.

But there's another level of SI I can't do much about, it's uncontrollable, passive, unconscious: I bite my gums, not hard enough to do any real harm or even register as "SI" in my mind because it doesn't really hurt. It's maybe more a control thing, like a pet gently biting you just to make a point, not to hurt you. Maybe.

A dentist noticed it a few years ago and advised me to "lower my stress levels", naive advice that left me newly guilty. As though you can just say to yourself "Stress begone!" and ride toward the sunset, no circumstances beyond one's control (according to a self-satisfied doctor with a family and security, yeah, I guess there aren't any. For them "stress" is possibly a matter of choice, yoga and bubble baths). But I was docile, I was a good patient so I tried hard. I dutifully fought my body and felt mad at myself whenever I noticed I "failed", but finally gave up. It seemed counter-productive, just fed self hatred.

Eventually I decided to leave my body alone - it seems to know what it's doing. It is what it is. I don't like it, but it's a mechanism that's out of my control, like sneezing. And maybe the body knows best. After all, it's got 5 billion years of evolution under its belt and I've just got one dentist and guilt to guide me. Maybe.

I guess there's also something to be said for a tortured body being tortured. I know I'm tortured; knowing it can't stop it, reality isn't all in one's head, it's objectively out there, sadly for the tortured.

It's too easy to engage in endless victim blaming and to tell myself it's weakness, but I overcame all overt, conscious, active SI for good with no help and withstood every desire to relapse. I changed my conscious habits in the long term, so I'm not sure "weakness" fits well either.

I guess my habits could have been transformed into a gentler form of SI, but there my doubt is whether SI, by definition, is something that you do. If it isn't something that one does, if it's something that is happening to you, is it SI? Not much "self" in the SI left, just "injury", maybe.

Just wondering if anyone else has these levels of SI too.

This is just my personal partial knowledge, not complete or professional in the slightest. As far as I know there's been a lot of research done into medical marijuana in the past 50 years, and there are now hundreds of compounds known to work in it. Quite a few countries are now working hard on developing different types of it for different medical problems - in gel, capsules, oil... it's a whole budding medicalized industry.

There's a lot to it but the two main compounds that have been studied so far are THC which makes you high, so it isn't so good for anxiety. It tends to make you more creative and mentally hyper, blood pressure can get higher - but people with trauma are already hyper to begin with so it may make anxiety worse.

The other is CBD. If someone is taking medical marijuana with CBD and almost no THC, they don't get stoned.
The two can be combined depending on why someone is given it in the first place.

CBD on its own is good for infections and neurological symptoms like tremors, it can relax and improve sleep and relieve anxiety too.
Where I lived medical marijuana was prescribed for PTSD as long as there was no history of psychosis and it can really save lives. The stigma and difficulties in getting it can get in the way though.

But a similar stigma exists for chronic pain patients too. The number of people who have called me an addict just because I'm ill...  just yesterday someone said to me "Oh, you just pop those like m&m's!" as if suffering and being ill is some life style choice or an interesting hobby that one enjoys.  people... 

Napping during the day seems to be a very common practice. It leaves me exhausted but less attacked by nightmares and night terrors. Both are hard to tolerate, for me.
For me they're very different, my nightmares are abuse-related and cruel, twisted, with a clear narrative, they can be very cruel or just stupid and meaningless, but they have a story to them. The night terrors seem to be early in the morning with no storyline, very vivid and crazy, with nothing to with anything at all, they're just moments of pure horror beyond description. Like my brain is locked into extreme fight/flight and is trying to escape but can't. Urgh.

Medical marijuana helped me weaken both a bit but they keep coming.

I used to be mad at myself for going to bed so late ever since I was a kid. Fought and fought with myself, till I read about PTSD and how daytime napping seems to lessen the pain and realized I'd been doing the same for as long as I can remember.

Nowadays what I do is I literally just give up. I read books all night long instead of trying to rest. If I can manage it I make use of time. I just ignore the fact that it's dark, makes no difference, I do what my body demands. And if I surprisingly doze off at some point once in a while, well fine, mistakes happen. Not pushing it and not trying to force myself to relax into sleep (an oxymoron anyway) seems to make it a little easier. Maybe.

But I guess it's hard to sustain long term. My body goes through "waves" of sleeplessness: I don't sleep at all for a week or so, then I'm so tired and out of it I get one night's sleep (I guess it's either that or brain damage) or two at the most, then no sleep again. In general, I think I never slept well in my life.

On the rare occasions I've been able to meditate and relax my body before I went to sleep, it had a really positive effect. But it's not easy... nighttime is when I usually feel the worst, fewer distractions, so sitting quietly with myself at night can be rough. Still, when I managed it it's been worth it. Getting myself properly tired, too. Physical exercise (back in the day) helped as well. But (for me) nothing makes the sleep craziness go away completely.

Deep Blue,
"I know just how you feel" 
clairvoyance seems to be on the rise along with thinking right. Sigh.

Cookido,

"Maybe it's the warm weather?"

That's... wow... almost beyond belief.
Maybe it's the warm weather. Or is it the damp? You can never discount the small things. What's abuse and long term suffering in comparison to temporary weather patterns?

Rainagain,
You could maybe keep adding more tattoos till it works. It was bound to work by the time you reached your earlobes.
And your old boss' secretary sounds to me like a sadistic psychopath. Sort of thing my F would enjoy saying, very alien.

Woodsgnome,
I agree with Rainagain. They sound malicious.
Got any that are just as stupid, but without the added twist of malice? Maybe..?
I'm trying to imagine what I meant by that. (not sure, I'm mostly gone) for example, instead of

"If you'd only think right, this wouldn't happen to you."
it might turn into a more general but equally useless
"But you know, it's important to think right." or "We create our own reality."
I don't know if this makes sense but maybe kind + stupid messages boil down to: the world is good, safe and beautiful and bubbly. If you disagree with me on that you'll be punished. Don't ruin my view of it all.
Maybe unkind + stupid (or even worse, unkind + smart) messages are saying: Who cares about the world? It's You who's the problem.
I don't know if it makes sense.

P.S. Maybe one of the best I've heard in the past year has been the following, in an email to me after I said something about my health deteriorating and writing being a bit hard: "Still not dead yet!"

Rocket,

Sigh. You know sometimes I wish my everyday thoughts weren't as hard to understand and often takes several paragraphs to explain. Other people my age either told me it was too complicated and gave up or idealized my smarts too much. Sometimes I wish I can like thinking about the normal stuff so more people would come by, but I'm not normal.

I've been getting that my whole life, too. Ever since I started talking, it's been:
"Whoa, that's interesting... who told you that, mommy?"
"You're heavy. Lighten up, man."
"That's too complicated for me."
"Wow, you're reading a book! Is it for a school project?" (Me: "No, I just like this one, it's a good one about..." Response: blank stare, turns away, enthusiastically chats with someone else like I'm contagious)

You and I are both a bit different, that's for sure. We're not totally average and it isn't easy. You too have cognitive disabilities, they're just at the other end of the bell curve - not below average, but just as difficult at times. It's not easy, I know, being different can leave you feeling isolated and misunderstood.
It's left me feeling like a bit of a freak much of my life. You're not alone, Rocket, I'm right there with you. There are others like you and me. Not many, maybe, that's just the way it seems to be for some reason, but we're out there.

Years ago I was chatting to someone who was a comparative stranger, and all of a sudden she looked straight at me and said "Aha! You're one of us." I didn't ask what she meant, and she didn't explain. We both knew, we recognized each other. We were both of that type.

These last few days I've been deleting each new thread or post I make. I don't know. I feel more emotionally numb than usual. A lot calmer, but just . . . listless. Other people could use up the space and attention that I don't ask for anyway. They need more help than me.

I hope you don't delete any more of them. For me, your posts are meaningful and thought-provoking. I'd miss a lot if you delete them.
And you know, even if what you wrote was uninteresting and silly, still I'd miss a lot if your words weren't there. I'd miss you. You don't have to succeed at anything or do anything a certain way in order to be worthy of a place here, or to be in my thoughts. You are because... because... well, I can't explain it. You just are because you're you.

For me, I can say these days I often don't have the strength to say a lot. It's a question of how weak I am, how hopeless I feel. I have about the strength of a wilted parsnip at the moment, parsnips don't talk much.

The need to be told and shown what others feel about me otherwise I assume the worst - I have that too  people who aren't traumatized have a hard time understanding that one.
I bet we all often feeling totally undeserving, exhausted, wasting others' time, unseen, unheard, jumpy, useless. And change comes very slowly... it trickles in gradually, it has to get through all the veils and walls of our past fearful habits. And past all these names the ICr gives us but they're all false, they're all lies. You have an important place here and you matter.

And,

I think I know the feeling you described very strongly... that terror of annihilation, it haunts me, especially at night. It's a harsh, cold, terrible feeling. Like the vacuum of space. It's beyond words, that feeling that I don't exist at all.

I think you, by having Rocket's body and Rocket's mind, are very much here. You exist in such a unique way all your own that I can feel you all the way to the other side of the world. Your words jump up at me. That's something that only you do.
To me you exist, no doubt about it. You exist when you feel confident in your own skin, and you exist when you feel you're gone.

These feelings have a terrorizing aspect to them, I think (in my experience) that's related to anxiety and to being in danger. But they also have the existentially benign, beneficial, interesting, real, in-depth, unusual, quirky aspect of reality to them. Analysis of what it means to be "me", to be a person, a conscious being in the world. I hope you never stop exploring that one.
I read somewhere that this exploration is like walking on the edge of a precipice. The existential questions, when asked well, lead you almost to nihilism but never really take you all the way there because it's You who is asking them, who is figuring things out in Your own unique subjective way. But unsettling they continue to be. Sometimes exhilarating, other times terrifying maybe. I personally think that's part of the price one pays for being a person. For thinking abstractly. It's part of the rules of the game.

Maybe.