Messages

Radical,
Thank god you replied.  Its not like I can call you.  You have been where I am.  You're right.  I am vulnerable.  I am running on about 4 hours of sleep and my adrenaline is going crazy.  I am just going to put in on me.  Just like people here say confronting a narcissist does no good - its no good for me to confront her.  Its just going to keep it all stirred up for me.  I am just going to say I feel bad about how low my insurance reimburses her and that its affecting how I am doing in therapy.  That I need a break.  That I am not sleeping well.  Its too late to have someone go with me.  I may just leave early.

My researching skills and persistence are paying off.  I learned that Aetna Insurance actually pays some clinicians a higher rate than what my therapist gets.  I had a therapist tell me directly she gets paid more than my therapist under the exact same insurance.  So my therapist screwed up her negotiation with this insurance company and she was taking it out on me?  She told me I would never find a good family therapist for me and my husband (not that we even need one-but she thinks we do) because of my crappy insurance. 

She made me think my insurance is so crap that I could never find a therapist as good as her and that  I am dependent on her and her good will in taking my crappy insurance.  There are hundreds of practitioners with better credentials than her that take my insurance.  It was only when I started digging into the list of therapists on my insurance panel that I discovered this.  I had a really crappy therapist before her and I was thinking she was right-my insurance is going to limit my options.  But that's not true!  I found a therapist in network who has extensive experience in treating CPTSD and Narcissistic abuse  with really impressive credentials-she says experts have trained her in dealing with people with complex trauma.  And we are going to set up an appointment. 

Therapists stay on insurance panels for a reason (and Aetna is a huge network. ) They get referrals from them.  Most therapists can't rely on self-paying clients and survive; only the wealthiest people can afford to pay $100-$150 per session without a burden on their finances. Also my therapist was denying the fact that a lot of therapists genuinely want to help and will even offer sliding scale to people who can't afford their rates.

So I have a lot of power here.  I am going into this termination session with information that is going to blow away anything she says.  The fact that she acted unethically in taking money from me for sessions that were already reimbursed could get her into trouble with a licensing board or with the insurance company. (this was confirmed by another therapist)

Ok, so how to use this power I now have?  How do I want this session to go down?  Do I want to vent and tell her exactly how bad she made me feel about this issue and infer she is a terrible therapist who even breached professional and ethical boundaries?  Do I want to bring up the multitude of other problems in our therapeutic relationship? Or do I want to take a softer and gentler approach and let her know this isn't working for me because her continually bringing up the insurance made me feel disempowered and less than?  Do I tell her I found another therapist who has the exact experience and credentials to deal with my specific circumstance?  She should be happy for me.  She didn't even know what CPTSD was.  When I gave her a book to read about it and asked her if she thought I had this diagnosis she said she wasn't good at diagnosing, she didn't know, then she said "were you physically abused?" (SHE COULDN'T REMEMBER THIS KEY FACT ABOUT MY CASE!!!)  She doesn't realize that severe emotional abuse and neglect will cause CPTSD!  I starting talking a few minutes about my amnesia in remembering much of my childhood and she said yeah I think you do have it.

She has never given me a treatment plan with goals.  (Neither did my other crappy therapist) She has never discussed when I will be through with therapy except to tell her it could take years.  She has never discussed her approach or what we are doing in therapy.  She has given me unsolicited advice more times than I can count.  She has discounted my good marriage by saying we have problems and need therapy for them.  She told me she thinks my son's ulcerative colitis is caused by emotional issues-making me doubt my parenting skills. She constantly says my husband doesn't "get it" but that my son does.  This is so not true, my husband is extremely empathetic and gets it and my teenage son is so in his own world he has no idea whats going on with me-he's away at college.

I had had such a horrible therapist before.  One that didn't know what a narcissist was, one who would ask simply how I was doing and then have nothing else to say.  When I went into therapy with her I was just so glad she knew about this dysfunctional family system and I was validated for the very first time in my life that my father abused me.  I was so grateful for this validation that I continually ignored her other faulty observations.

I got twisted in knots about her continually bringing up me going back to practicing law and when I brought up my internal conflict she discussed it briefly and a few sessions later she was back with the "I need to keep my bar license active."  That I will be well enough (with her expert help of course) to get back to practicing law.  Even when I told her there are no jobs that fit with what I want to do and it may not be a viable option for me, she kept persisting.

I feel like I am coming out of the fog with her.  The same way I came out of the fog with my family.  By researching.  If there is a lesson to be learned here for anyone out there-if something doesn't feel right with a therapist-explore it; don't just be grateful for what you have.   Really delve into why you aren't feeling right about something.  I thought running away and not resolving conflicts with a therapist was not healthy.  I gave her second chances.  I was wrong.







Her making a blanket statement that any good therapist is going to turn me away because of my crappy insurance was such a breach of professional and ethical boundaries.  I am doing her a huge favor in going in there today to terminate my relationship with and letting her know what she did wrong.  It can help her with other clients.

So, I'm depressed, realizing that my Dad wasn't a bad guy, just unaware of the damage he was causing by always putting me lower on the list than I needed to be. I'm depressed, reliving the losses of my siblings as my friend must be feeling them. Grieving their loss and grieving with my friend who's just learned about the losses. I'm sick with this bronchitis. I'm not sleeping well because of the coughing (at least). Son is not liking that I'm not at his every beck and call. Hubby is not liking that I'm genuinely too sick for his reset and losing patience with it all. I'm too tired to fight with them, so I go hide in the sleep that has been granted to me by them. And at work, I'm just sick enough to struggle to get my job done and not sick enough to justify going home.

You are being really hard on yourself.  You did nothing wrong in telling your friend about the deaths in your family.  I am sure he can handle it.  It is not your responsibility to handle feelings for someone else.  You are hurting and you deserve support.  Your autistic sister and step-siblings were no more deserving of your dads support than you were.  You were important.  Your needs mattered.  You have a right to feel sad.  It is not a pity-party.  Cats in the cradle always makes me cry too.  There is a reason this song is sad to us.  We didn't have our needs met.

Luna,

Your story is breathtakingly heartbreaking.  I am in tears hearing what you went through.  How horrible to have a mentally ill mother like yours.  To have your Nana blame you for your mothers mental illness.  To be afraid at night that your mum would come and slit your throat.  To have your brother beat you and blame it on you.  IT WAS NOT YOUR FAULT!  I hope you are still seeing a psychologist.  You need a safe space away from these people.  I hope that the plan is for you to live on your own.  You are wise to understand that what you went through is not NORMAL!  Do not give up hope Luna.  It is possible to heal.  Just by writing your story here tells us that you are courageous and brave and resourceful.

Keep writing.  Keep communicating.  there are people here who want to help!

My entire sense of self worth based on how much I can do for others to the complete neglect of myself.

I know that so many of us can relate to this!  I grew up with such a strong sense that I must empathize with others to the detriment of my own mental health.  I remember my sister calling me when she was going through a divorce and me listening to her and giving her legal advice (I was an attorney) and trying to help-but later realizing she had never done the same for me.  How could I have been so blind to what she was doing. Using me.  I couldn't sleep any night I talked to her because I felt so used.

I had to learn to recognize anger. Maybe I even needed to learn to feel anger. Anger signals a violated boundary. Since I had never had boundaries before I had to learn what a broken boundary felt like and what anger at a broken boundary felt like and then how to respond to that anger.

When that anger gets suppressed in us from a very young age-Its hard to get it back.  Anger is powerful.  It lets us know things are not right.  So many women learn to cry when they are actually angry.  I could go on and on about how anger has been so difficult to express in my life.  How it has come out in such inappropriate ways.  Anger is my number one emotion to try and get in touch with.  Grief-no problem.  Anger-inner critic comes out and condemns it.

Desperately I tried to move, to scream for help, but no sound came from my open mouth and I was paralyzed to move in the dream. My journey out of the fog was mirrored in my nightmare, as I learned boundaries and found my voice in real life then in my nightmare I was able to whisper a small protest and whisper for help.

Finding ones voice.  So so powerful.  Speaking up.  Letting it out.  We were squelched for too long.  It's time to let go of freezing  and denying our feelings.

Research lead me to Out of the FOG and my journey began. Newly armed with tools I prepared to battle to take back my life, well take my life since it wasn't something I really ever possessed. I had never individuated or fully separated. It was time.

Discovering who we really are separate from what was thrust upon us-well if feels alien at first.  It sounds like you have incredible courage and strength to do what you need to do to separate from that toxic situation.  Well done!

I am feeling stronger.  I have researched issues of insurance and money in therapist practices.  I have learned about ethical practices.  I have learned about strong feelings that arise when therapists feel de-valued by insurance companies.  I know that it must be a painful feeling.  I see both sides.  I see my therapist as someone who is feeling the decline in the value that insurance companies place on the work they do.

I also know there is a therapeutic frame.  Boundaries are set.  The frame is key.  When that frame is broken; like the ways in which my therapist broke them-repair must be done.  She let her own personal feelings about insurance companies devaluing her work slip into our personal relationship.

What I am expecting this therapist to do is to acknowledge her deficiencies in keeping the therapeutic frame in place.  If she acknowledges that-well she is admitting she is human.

If she doesn't acknowledge or understand how her personal feeling about money are impacting our relationship-well then - she isn't very self aware.  At that point, I would have to think that I am more self-aware then she is.  That is where my power comes in.  I am intelligent, resourceful, self-aware of my own deficiencies (my vulnerability when I feel like someone might abandon me) that I can go in there and let the truth come out and see where the chips fall.  So power can come from vulnerability.  From just seeing the truth of things.  That is powerful.  Seeing the truth of things and not ignoring it.  I don't want to interject politics here, but certain leaders are people who are blind to the truth and we are seeing that play out on the world stage in ways that are frightening and enlightening.

Go ahead and cry" was a phrase often hurled at me when young--yes, now I think I just will; and I'm proud not to hide that I hurt, all the while looking for the essence of being vulnerable enough to know my power to heal. Believe in myself? Yes, I think so, and seeing through those same tears I have the joy of finding new ways forward...to peace...and love; in some ways, for the first time. Believe it? Maybe just BE, allow my healing scars to show, be vulnerable, and even happy to have the ability to cry. Just BE...more power than I've ever had, in two words.

Beautifully said Woodsgnome.  Just to be happy to have the ability to cry.  I thank god I can cry.  Just be....

If that's what power is, then I want whatever its opposite is, not only to balance some equation between abuse and sharing unfiltered love, but as a topsy-turvy version of true power. Yet the cultural images keep churning out these triumphant images of control. Show your power and you're worthy of praise, otherwise you're a weak loser.

The abusers had power over us and we have to take back that power but not by being what they are.  To me their kind of power is sick, twisted.  Unfortunately, like radical said we have so many terrible reminders of the abuse of power everyday in this world.  We have to somehow reconcile that lots of powerful people resemble our abusers in their misuse of power.  There has to be better examples of power.  I am on a search for those better examples.  I don't want to be cynical.  I want to believe that some use power for goodness and dignity for everyone.

Radical,

Your story is gut wrenching to me too!  Thank you for seeing this today and writing your response.  I know that what you are going through is just as complex and agonizing as what I am going through.

Thank you for validating my honesty.  I know its the only way through.  We can't live in denial of our emotions anymore.  Like San said, we got to get this stuff out of us.  Its just poison.

This forum is keeping me accountable to my true self.  I don't know where I would be without it.

So I had a bad dream about the therapist in my twenties who abused me sexually.  There were all these themes of money and me trying to stay away from him.  I know its about my current situation with T.  She apologized for hurting me- but can I let it go?  I feel like she renewed her contract with Aetna, didn't read the small print and took my insurance.  After I was already established she realized my insurance didn't reimburse her like it used to.  It started slipping out in sessions-her anger about that.  She resented it.  Then she became fond of me; proud of me and she was ok with the insurance thing then.  But I hadn't resolved it.  When I tried to resolve it she just got defensive.  She half-way acknowledged what she did was wrong but just tried to justify it.  She felt she was being truthful with me when she says she'd rather be reimbursed at a higher rate. (She would rather see someone who has better insurance)  Well who wouldn't? She must have thought.  Duh! Obviously.  She didn't see how very painful it was for me to even bring it up. She couldn't see my pain.  Sleepless hours agonizing over just bringing it up but being brave and doing it anyway.  Just walking away from that session feeling low.  Hoping it was resolved but it wasn't. And then I text her. She says she gets it.  That she is sorry.  I melt a little.  Its ok, I can trust her. I can continue seeing her.  I don't have to feel abandoned.  I feel better.  But it doesn't last.

She was in a great mood when I walked into that session.  I was feeling like crap from not sleeping.  The first thing she says to me, before I can get a word out, is that the book I gave her to read was great.  That it even had helpful information for another client, she says.  How well written it is etc.  And she says, "did you say I could keep it?" with a delighted smile on her face.   I meekly say yes, even though I didn't feel good about it.  Then I started talking about the insurance issue-she is slowly realizing the dynamic I brought up-that I didn't feel I should be asking her to do homework (reading the book) when my insurance doesn't pay well. She says I shouldn't have done that-(brought up the insurance)-I am just mad at insurance companies. She says "I shouldn't have asked you to keep the book".  I am still silent.

Later I think, I underlined all of these key parts of that book, so she would know what I thought was important.  And it was also for my benefit in rereading it.  And I just gave it to her, because she asked.  And I don't feel like I can take that back.  Does she like me giving her gifts for some reason-like when I gave her extra money when she was also reimbursed by insurance. She was delighted.  Other people tell me this isn't ethical.  She shouldn't be taking money from me for sessions that the insurance has already reimbursed.  Its not ethical.  Does it make her feel some sense of gratitude that fills some need in her.  She once told me her mother learned to use men to get money.  Is she still wounded about money because of how her mother handled money?

I don't know if I can get over this money issue with her.  She said in her text.  "I took your insurance and I am glad now"  That tells me she wasn't glad at all at first.  The fact that she was working with me in the beginning, but really resented it.  I don't think I can just get over that just because "she no longer resents it."  Because now she has bonded with me.  She apologized to me by text but is she willing to do it in person?

So I am having to go through more sleepless nights figuring out how our next session is going to go.  I have to tell her, I want the book back.  (How could she think its o.k. to keep this book with my underlining things all over it?)  I have to tell her to stop mentioning going back to practicing law.  I have to tell her about the dream about my old therapist.  I have to tell her I feel a sense of betrayal.  We have to talk about transference and countertransference. Uhh! This is agony.  Should it be this hard?  My old therapist tried to trick me out of thinking and knowing, I was betrayed, by saying therapy is hard and I was doing good.  Is she going to try and do the same?  Am I just too needy for her?  Too wounded?  Do I need a therapist who specializes in trauma?

So I started obsessing over finding a new therapist.  The kind of obsessing that is not healthy.  The list of therapists that take my insurance is huge.  I kept googling therapists over and over.  So many were clearly all wrong.  Some couldn't spell the word "holistic" correctly.  Some did EMDR and tapping-I don't think those things would be helpful for me at all.  Some specialized in kids, but said they do adults-that didn't work with my previous horrible therapist that specialized in kids, that didn't even know what a narcissist was.  Some said they take my insurance but I have to submit the forms! What!  Some said if my insurance doesn't reimburse me I have to make up the difference.  Again what? I thought that wasn't ethical.  So I do email one or two people.  One immediately emails me back.  She even gives me a time and date.  She specializes in family systems therapy and had the word, Narcissitic Personality in her list of items treated.  She works in an upscale area of town.  Her linkedin profile has lots of skills and endorsements. Her credentials and experience look solid.  And I think good, she knows what a narcissist is.  She knows how important the FOO is.  She casually mentions in her email, that if I am using insurance just call Tessa at this number.  So I think that my low reimbursing insurance shouldn't be an issue.  So I should have stopped there right?  I keep going.  I find a therapist that practiced as an attorney for awhile and had credentials that were very impressive and I leave a message on her voicemail.  But I didn't really like the sound of her voice.  It didn't sound warm.

I try to talk to my husband about it but he doesn't know what to say.  He didn't like a couple of things she has said, one about our marriage.  But he knows I am attached to her.  I tell him I am going to stop obsessing over a new therapist.  I am just going to go to my next session; see how that goes.  Then go for a consult with the new therapist and see how that goes.

So last night we were watching a movie.  Short term 12.  Its about a female director (who was abused herself) of a group home for neglected youth.  These youth have been so abused and they do alarming things - all the time- like running as fast as they can toward the gate that they can jump over and once they are over the staff aren't allowed to touch them.  They also have screaming fits and need to be calmed down.  I say to my husband - my god these staff (two are former foster kids) they have been through so much and here they are in the midst of other kids pain.  He says to me, "they are just trying to help people like you".  I start crying.  I realize he gets it now.  That I was abused.  In our 22 years of marriage he hasn't known the real me until the last few months, after my discoveries.  He tells me the things my father did, how horrible that must have been for me.  I hugged him.  I felt so validated. I have been hiding for so long.

When I was a child my father burned a whole box of things in a bonfire in the garden, and it turned out that they were the childhood stories I had written, which I was proud of and felt I'd done something worthwhile.  Of course - it was supposedly an accident, but as an adult, I feel as if he violated my creativity - not only with that physical act of burning my stories, but in other ways - he violated me.  He didn't allow me my space to be free and a child - he invaded my space - I feel choked up literally when I think of this.

This is heartbreaking! Your stories! Burned! By your father.  How very cruel.  I am so sad this happened to you.  That he didn't allow you to be a child.  I feel the same.  Unfortunately, or fortunately I can't remember much of my abuse.  But I can feel it.  And this is how it feels, like my space was invaded.  You write so well!

Horrible - and I strove to be 'the good daughter' for SO MANY years - well into my adulthood and beyond, and only in the last decade have I managed to break away.  I feel foolish when I think about it - why did I stay so long in their control - even to the detriment of my emotional and mental health.

Oh how I relate to this.  I thought I was helping my mental health to keep a connection going.  I also feel foolish I stayed so long.  I even ask my husband why he continued to allow myself to be hurt by keeping up the visits.  I was in so much denial, he couldn't even notice how I was being re-traumatized.  Sometimes its subtle, but the old patterns building up for years, even the smallest of comments or slights can hurt us.  We just think - how can I be upset about that - I should be able to let that go.  I am the mature one here.  Its so complex.

But noone accepted that I might be really sad too. Noone actually asked what I felt. My mom just pretended to be listening.

I can so relate to this.  No one saw you.  How painfully invisible you must have felt.  The adults around you, their needs were more important than you.  You were the child.  You needed to be put first.  That's not fair to use you like an emotional sounding board for her own needs.  My mom did the same.

Anybody else ever do something like that?

Yes. About 8 months ago I got into my first relationship with a female therapist.  It's been harder to trust her.  I have always had male therapists.

So glad you were offered a job after two years of not working.  I haven't worked in two years - and I know it will feel wonderful to have that sense of purpose again when I get a job.

I admire you for going on those solo trips for all those years.  What a great experience.  I used to hike for hours with just me and my dog in a beautiful state park with hardly any people around.  I felt so content in nature. It feeds part of my soul.  I need to do that again.  I keep putting it off.   Despite your trauma you are doing things that are healthy like yoga.  It sounds like you have a good therapist too.  That's all very inspirational to me.

The moral of the story: don't put too much reliance on old ideas from FOO, ask somebody with relative emotional health in today's society.

This is so healthy.  What a great thing to realize.

Don't worry about things you can't change until you can change them.       (self-dialogue BTW)

Don't worry about a whole bunch of other things either, just keep going bit by bit on your tasks.

That is really good self-dialogue.  I need to do more of this.

i was this sparkly little girl, and they stifled that sparkle from day one, especially my dad.  That sparkly spirit stayed alive within me, but the real me was being chipped away.

This made me cry san; thinking about the sparkly little girl that you were and the wounds inflicted on her.

i was so very, profoundly sad for what had been done to me - they wanted to erase me!

I hear you san, I feel the same.

and now my eyes are paying the price for having held all that sadness for so long.  my poor darling eyes that did their best to protect me from being mocked by my dad (geez, i can't even talk to you, and the waterworks start)  when i was distressed because i'd displeased him.  mocked by my sister and friends for crying at movies.  mocked by my daughters who would always check at some event we were at to see if i was crying (i usually was), mocked by adult friends (the tears are running down my face now).

You've carried so much pain for so long san.  I am so sorry!  No one validated you.

he's not anymore, now knows that it's a sign of distress, and has even learned to gather me in.  thank you, god.

I am so glad san, you should get that validation now and forever more.  I am so glad you two have come together in your grief.

and now my dear younger daughter hands me tissue when we're in any way going to be involved in something emotional.

Oh, I am so happy that you have such a wonderful daughter.  How precious your relationship must be!

please, as scary as it might be, i want everyone else to take a lesson from this and get those frickin' emotions out of you!!!  they will kill you if you don't!!! 

I hear you san.  I am so sorry that you are going through this.  You are such a blessing to everyone on this forum.  You are such a wonderful spirit.  I want you to know how much you've helped me.

i began with writing, keeping an anger journal, so to speak, with nothing but anger inside it.  i just started writing what i thought i was supposed to be feeling, how it was supposed to feel, what i would say if i actually felt it.  it really was a 'fake it till you make it' kind of scenario.  eventually, the anger began being released on its own, and i was able to begin getting it out.

This is what I need to do.  I remember when on my recovery journal I spewed out all this stuff about how my father was evil, the devil, and just all kinds of nasty stuff.  Then I read the guidelines and it says don't dehumanize your perpetrator and insult them etc.  I am was like oops. (The administrators must not have noticed) So maybe I need my own anger journal.  Awhile ago I got a punching bag and yesterday I finally got the gloves and filled the base of the punching bag with water, so its ready to go.

my anger is coming to the fore more quickly now than ever before.  another triumph.

i'm able to more easily sit with them at times, just let them be there, and not rush to cover them up, bury them with food, deny them, or push them down or away once more.

You are an inspiration.  This is so difficult and so brave to do.

it was good to talk about it, let him know my thoughts and feelings about it.

So glad you have this support.  You also have the support of people here.   

So I texted her.  I said, "Do you understand how your comment, about how you would rather work with someone whose insurance is better, hurt me?  Do you get that that is a hurtful thing to say?  She said, "Yes, I am very sorry!  Can you accept my apology-I very much hope so! I messed up!

She acknowledged that our discussion about insurance/money/ brings up feelings in both of us and that we can hopefully "make peace" with it.  The whole transference thing.  It is so very complex.  She most definitely has issues around money (and she says she has had years of therapy) But she admitted she made a mistake.  That took courage.

I think I am going to have a consult with a therapist who is on my insurance panel, whose website looked great and see how that goes.

In the meantime, maybe we can repair this rift.  We have both invested a lot in this relationship.  I have discovered things about myself with her that I never knew.  I have showed parts of my soul that have never been revealed.  It has been very healing. 

Do you give up on a troubled marriage when both partners openly acknowledge the problems and agree to work through them?  Maybe I am learning something very valuable here.  People screw up, they hurt us, in the case of my family they never apologize, but she did.  And she did so when I spoke up for myself.  When I brought it out into the open.

My problem is that I do not speak up when something makes me feel uneasy.  This has been a huge thing in my life. I wonder if this whole insurance thing would have been solved months ago if I had just had the courage to say, the very first time it came up, hey, whats going on here, this whole telling me I have crappy insurance-its making me feel bad.  Instead, I let it go on for months.

The people on this forum, San, Radical, you have made me realize my blind spots.  This therapist most definitely has issues around money.  I am going to have to speak up anytime something makes me feel uneasy.  I am going to have to let her know that continuing to bring up my going back to practicing law is causing me internal conflict.  I think this is part of her MONEY issue.  She wants me to go back to a better paying job.  I just want to think it terms of "a good enough job"  a "good enough life."

I think that most of my healing has been through discovering this forum and researching, journaling, discussing, reading books, etc.  The therapist part - well - that has been a part of it too-but not the most.  I am so grateful for the intelligent, insightful, generous and compassionate people of this forum for help in my healing.  I would not be where I am today without it.  I would be stuck in that frozen like depression, detached from the whole world.