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Hey there,

This was sort of my area of speciality. That being said I've totally relapsed on my eating issues and body shame. My business was to help trauma survivors with body shame and so on. I went to nutrition school. It was an anti-weight based health paradigm school. The point is restrictive dieting doesn't work, in fact it just creates more problems and weight tends to increase over time. There is so much to say here, but the most important thing is that it's not wrong to have fat on our bodies. Weight is statically the worst indicator we have of health. What are better indicators? Healthy behaviors are a much better indicator. The number on the scale doesn't mean as much as we have been led to believe.

I carry a lot of my shame from my trauma and project it onto my body. I'm doing it all over again now. I've been binging and eating just lots of whatever. I feel like I've regressed back to little 9 year old me that was trying to put on weight to protect herself from abuse and also perpetuate this feeling of unworthiness. If I'm 'fat' then I'm less than, I don't deserve xyz (love, acceptance, sunshine, pretty much whatever). It can go pretty deep. I think a bit of fat can feel like protection too.

I actually think it's sweet that you are soothing your inner child with a snack at night. Maybe she just still needs it. Here's a possibly radical idea, what if it was just ok to do this? What if it was ok to be 'fat'? Dieting doesn't work, restrict=binge. That's the research. We can make healthy behavior changes but when they are weight based, they are shame based, and the research is that this pretty much never works, or only does so for a short period of time.

Anyways I thought I just kick some of these ideas around in case any of this struck some cord with you. I know you are looking at it as a health issue. All I can say is for many of the weight thing is so much deeper. If we let go of the number on the scale (this is a big idea for most of us as we have been led to believe low weight=health) and focus on small attainable goals like eating more fruits and veg, or getting a little more activity this actually goes way further for our health than changing the amount of fat on our bodies. 

I'm crying cause I gave up on my business/program about this, and you know where I'm at right now. This is my life's work. Thanks for reminding me Kizzie...

DecimalRocket,

I totally agree, they are just human. The longer I viewed my abuser/s as these evil monsters the more power they had over me. The more I accept they are super sick and flawed humans, the less of a grip they have. In fact, malignant narcissists want to be see as monsters to keep us terrified (I realized this in an article by self proclaimed sociopath HG Tudor on his site, TW if you've never been there, but it's helped me understand them from the inside), they want to make themselves as big as possible so we stay feeling small and helpless. I kind of think it's actually most of the game. 

I can now see how this dynamic has played out in my maternal ancestry going back 4 generations. It has allowed me to replace my toxic, parental hatred with grace and love and ultimately, I believe, is helping me to find healing. I've even been able to grieve for my mother. Had I not found this knowledge, I'd still be telling others that my parents were two of the most narcissistic assh*les on earth.
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Trauma is usually a contributing factor. I'd imagine that it's exceedingly rare to find the truly evil parent that hates and abuses their child for no reason other than entertainment.

I think it's wonderful that understanding the legacy of abuse in your family is helping you to heal. Releasing resentment towards people who abused us can be very liberating. Compassion too. Just be careful that it doesn't put you in a position to let them, or anyone else, victimize you again, because they can and will use it to play the victim and as an excuse to perpetuate more harm (I've learned this one the hard way over and over). Both my parents came had abusive parents. So did the abusive people I ended up partnering with, and believe me, they milked it to their benefit to play on my deep sense of empathy and compassion and use it as an excuse for more abuse.

I think it is important to acknowledge they are at fault and responsible for their actions regardless of where or how they developed the PD, after all, not all of us become like them. It's also important to note that NPD can and does arise out of sheer entitlement in a trauma-free home. I can't remember the statistic but it's not all that rare or impossible. Epigenetics do seem to play a role.

From my understanding they aren't abusing out of 'entertainment' anyways, it's a control mechanism in order to carry out their superiority complex as we are a threat to their grandiose identity. It's less entertainment and more about feeling powerful, and they derive 'supply' or pleasure from hurting and toying with us, regardless of if they were also traumatized as children or not. Apparently, they cannot live without this narcissistic supply which comes from any positive or negative attention or reaction they are able to glean from those around them that contributes to their skewed view of themselves.

I guess when I look at the whole picture, I see that the narcissistic abuse dynamic is reflective of the greater human dominance hierarchy. It is interesting to question whether this is learned behavior or not. There is fascinating research done for decades by neuroscientist Robert Sapolsky on baboon tribes in Africa. He studied how this dynamic in baboons contributes to increased stress and disease in the more oppressed or 'abused' baboons (compare this to ACE studies, so many of us suffer from other health conditions as a result of being abused or 'dominated'). What's crazy is that in one tribe, all the alpha and very abusive baboons were killed by tuberculosis-tainted meat, and that tribe turned into a peaceful egalitarian and non-violent type society, where they even taught new baboon members who wandered in from other tribes that abusive behavior is not ok or allowed.

So I probably look waaaay off topic at this point, haha, but what I'm trying to get at is that holding these types accountable for their behavior is how we end it all. Our society does not currently punish them, it condones them, it's a society wide culture of abuse we can see evident in all of our power structures. And I agree that it has been passed down generation after generation. So I think, personally, that the topic of intergenerational trauma is very, very important. But it's important we do not use it to let people who perpetuate violence (In any and all forms) 'off the hook', but more so to hold them accountable. To say this behavior has to end and we don't accept it anymore. The majority of narcissists are untreatable because they are unwilling to change, and if you explore this further, their actual, documented reasoning is that 'they have no incentive to'.

Resca- thanks, yeah that's a good point. Somehow I wasn't connecting that others fill that emptiness with whatever it is they bring. Of course! Distraction from my self and pain mainly, at least for awhile...then it gets out of hand. Or feeling like I don't want to have a self, it's not safe, maybe I can disappear  in this massive narcissistic ego...oops wrong choice!  Totally agree it's learned response or behavior from trauma conditioning/grooming by my parents. I'm just trying to move on to how do I beat this. How do I stop letting them in? It's super weird to now see myself in the states where I am endangering myself like it's normal. Oh but yeah, it is/was my normal forever and ever. This last one was the most dangerous and chaotic of all, it's a miracle, or several actually, that I'm still alive after the past year I survived so many things, him included among them.

I have The Language of Letting go which is the daily affirmations one, it's fantastic. I use is most mornings but I've been kind of strung out on dissociation lately and having trouble remembering such things.

Something else I noticed about my pattern is that when I'm with an abuser I am able to stay so dissociated that I don't really feel pain for quite sometime until they ramp up the abuse to intolerable levels and it breaks through. Then I leave and I'm in that depressive state where I am doing other things to avoid the ptsd symptoms. Like being with people who hurt me allows for this insulating period of regression where I'm back in the fire so to speak, and perhaps it's like all the symptoms and feelings make sense in that context, as they make so much less sense when I'm alone in my house for months on end isolated and they are there anyways...

So i'm feeling like I'm really seeing how I get re-victimized. Yeah, I understand a lot about abuse trauma and the personality types who perpetuate it. I'm not saying in any way it's my fault they did what they did to me. But this last relationship really broke down all my walls. It was the first time I ever, ever let anyone get that close to me. That I ever let anyone in like that. I have been in a prison cell of isolation my whole life, terrified of the world. I have been in many abusive relationships with psychopaths, in particular. But this one was so intense. It was the most traumatic in so many ways and also the most painful emotionally. I really thought he loved me. I feel like I'm finally having some insights on my core vulnerabilities that unfortunately have made me a target for these types.

I guess what I see in myself is that I have this pervasive sense of emptiness, it's more than the loneliness. I feel like I don't have an identity without being attached to someone who I sacrifice myself completely to, someone who I give everything to, who takes everything away and treats me like I'm never enough. That seems to be my subconscious belief of what 'love is'. And I knew he was a malignant narcissist and I was drawn to him anyways. That was different this time and really bizarre, I couldn't stop myself in some sense. I got away from him for six months had a breakdown and went back and it was an absolute nightmare. I was out of my mind when I returned. Almost dying in a foreign county triggered an epic dissociative episode and that's where I ended up. I had tried to create this business and the stress of it nearly killed me.

The emptiness goes further to the feeling that I don't exist if a) I'm not saving someone or b) I'm not being traumatized. I've bounced back and forth between these two roles with various toxic types, they are all takers and exploiters and none of them ever really cared about me.

I also tried to make a career out of helping people with trauma and I probably still could, but I'm starting to think that's not a good idea. I'm not mentally healthy right now and it will always be triggering. But it's really hard for me to let this go. I feel like it's my life purpose, but now I'm wondering if that's just because I don't actually know how to live a "normal" life. Like, abuse and other trauma are my normal since I was in utero. It's like my identity is trauma and when I let that go I am empty and end up consuming other people's trauma. By that I mean helping DV victims or binge watching too much TV/movies.

I don't feel like I know how to just be a human. I was reading about dissociative disorders and I definitely suffer from dissociative amnesia and also the depersonalization/derealization as well. It doesn't feel like anything is 'real'. Or more like I live in a different space of reality from the rest of the world. And I just kind of gathered that doesn't apply to other people with trauma. That's all I can really relate to. Then I feel engaged and connected and like I can do something/be somebody. It's like nothing else feels possible. As though I'm stuck in this endless trauma loop since childhood.

I found myself being terrified of him coming to get me, he did make threats, but what's really making me see my own disfunction is that it's almost exciting. I was like excited that he was going to come and kill me. Like I'm bored and listless without death threats and psychopathic abuse. This is hard to admit. Because I really don't enjoy being abused, but something in me craves the insanity. When it happens I hate it, I'm terrified, I feel trapped and it's horrible, obviously. But I wonder if I am actually chemically dependent on the adrenaline and stress hormones, in the same way I feel compelled to care take as a survival mechanism.

I only really saw this the last year or so and it's been very confusing to watch myself and have the awareness of things that were totally subconscious before, even if I couldn't stop myself from acting and seeking out these dangerous people and situations. That's the rub: I still couldn't stop myself and it allowed him to trap me further because he knew this and used it to blame me for what he did, and it led me to really blame myself and stay stuck. And it's tough to write about here.

So my whole identity at this point is being shattered. I'm not sure who I am. I mean, I'm not sure what my purpose is if I get to reinvent myself and just live. If It's not complete self sacrifice to other people in some way.

Who am I without being a victim of abuse? I'm baffled.

So I guess I give up the work I was doing, I mean at this point it's not healthy for me, but this isn't going to be so easy. Because I have no idea what else to do. What kind of regular type job should I get? I get bored so easily. I'm not sure I'm ready to work yet with as I'm still dealing with this nervous breakdown but I'm wondering has anyone ever felt this way? Like you don't know who you are without trauma or being a rescuer or victim? If so, what did you do? How did you begin to really start living. 

Great job, I'm finding it hard to find a therapist too and hard not to give up on the process when I keep getting declined. Ugh. Super duper triggering when they say no. It's already a big thing to choose to seek therapy in the first place. I am in this day program at psych hospital and one of the T's there who runs a group mentioned how hard it can be for those of us with CPTSD to use the phone. I liked how she put it, she said it's like we can't see them and the feeling of not having that control over potential threat/disappointment or whatever, just hearing the voice, is triggering for a lot of people. Something like that. I thought that was interesting and worth mentioning I guess. Good luck to you! 

Ah,

I can relate to the self hatred and feeling like a waste of oxygen. The truth is you are not, but the truth is also that you 'feel' like you are. Any oxygen I've seen you use here is so so valuable to all you come in contact with. I actually see compassionate caring 2 year old still IS you.

I think beyond internalizing and believing the self hatred we've been conditioned with, we also turn our hatred of our abusers in on ourselves. It doesn't have any 'safe' place to go, it can't be expressed to the people it belongs to, so we put in on ourselves. It has to go somewhere and it's very real! I have been struggling with this lately and sometimes it just gets the best of me. We have been scapegoated. I think we get really freaking confused about anger. Because out abuser's anger was evil, malicious, and controlling, not to mention they were in control of it and used it to hurt us/others. And any anger we have can make us feel 'bad' because we naturally don't want to be like them. Projecting onto a child that they are the one who is bad is highly effective. It lasts...

Something I've realized about anger is that it's the energy of change. I often direct it at myself, and it will destroy and debilitate me. But sometimes now, I'm finding, I can redirect it's powerful energy into action, change, healing. Sometimes the only thing that gets me through the self hatred is the stubbornness in the feeling that if I keep it up for them these jerks win.

I like how you explained it with your outer critic is really your inner critic. Makes perfect sense to me.

I just want to say you have a right to be angry. You may be trained to direct it all at yourself. I see you do have a pretty big heart and you are doing a lot of good here! I know what it's like to feel like potential is gone, but the other morning I woke up from a dream to see that it had only been buried for it's own self preservation and distorted by the malicious people who were pathologically envious of it. I wrote a beautiful piece about it and maybe I will post it some time. It's about how we have to lose our identity, or gifts, our potential, to survive. But it's never really lost, it just needs to feel safe to be accessed again and that's a process.

Sometimes when I am feeling like this I write a hate letter, even to myself. Just like, stream of consciousness get it out on paper and purge. Its ok to hate yourself, has anyone told you that? Even if you are not really truly hate-able your feelings are real. Maybe they will tell you something. I let it flow out and if I start to feel the hate towards someone or something else just let that flow out on the page too.

I was the protector of my sibling too and she only resents me. I hate her sometimes now, I didn't think I was allowed to before. She's mean. Not my problem. But I didn't aways allow myself to feel that.

I'm proud of you for acknowledging your anger, it ain't easy. 

Welcome! This is a safe place, people are very kind and understanding and knowledgable. It's unique for sure. 

Aw Cookido, I totally feel you. I just made a leap based on my own reactions to things. We are so quick to make things our fault and try and take responsibility for things we don't need to. That sounds like a horrific experience for you as well I am glad you are both out of there and safe from it. I see you may have really helped him to extricate himself from a very unhealthy parent. This makes you a really good partner and person. Just a little reminder, I forget things like this myself mostly. Hope I didn't come across as harsh I've been second guessing myself all day lol, basically exactly what I said you don't have to do. hahahah ugh

I think maybe just respect his decision and be supportive. It sounds like you are feeling guilty about it like maybe he came to the choice because you could see his mother is a nightmare (aka you are terrified of her) and it was harder for him to see or acknowledge being the child. It couldn't have been an easy choice to make and I'm sure he thought it through. It is never easy to cut off contact with our abusive parents/family. It sounds like the dad is toxic too. Waffling in your support of him in this might create more problems for him, actually. It sounds like he made a healthy choice. I personally think it would be more helpful if you just give him your 100% support for his decision.

Thanks guys. Yeah, I've got some medication treatment that's actually making this possible, it really wasn't before. My psych put me on ketamine nasal spray. People want to put it down because it's used as a party drug but it is magical for me. And the research shows it may actually be curative and it's so much more effective than SSRIs it's amazing. It's probably the future of medication for depression and ptsd. If people can get past the stigma of it being a 'party drug'.

Miaoue yeah for sure, but I really don't even interact with my parents. I don't tell them anything about what I'm doing, just bare minimum. It's hard but not as hard as it used to be. I had to set some major boundaries (loudly and aggressively) and they don't like it but, for once, I don't care. Not my problem.

My step dad comes at me with passive aggressive comments and judgements disguised as 'trying to help me', I blew up on him and stood up for myself and ended up relapsing on alcohol but in the end I'm glad because he isn't bothering me anymore and I'm going to AA now. I can see my mom grasping to get control and attention I just ignore her until I need something. I guess the old me would feel selfish and guilty for this but now that I realized who she really is and remembered what she abandoned me to and how she covertly abused me I'm like * her, take what I can get and get out when I can. I don't have time for their crap. I don't really even have any more grief left in me about what she put me through as a child and as a disabled adult. I'm just spending my time taking care of myself and getting at AA meetings right now and it's helping to have a new support community even if I really don't trust anyone there lol. Why should I? They need to earn my trust. But I've realized if I stay in bed and lay around I get more tired and depressed and so I've found as many support groups as possible to get to. 12 step ones and mental health ones at county psych (that's all we have) and actually it's working to just get myself moving, as hard as it is. A bunch of real people have stepped in to help me.

AA is kind of amazing. Like wrap around support, I'm totally terrified of being manipulated and abused by them all but I'm trusting myself to make judgements as I get to know people. I dont have much to say in any groups I'm going to, and I usually end up bawling on the way home, I'm not sure why. I've considered that maybe it's because I don't want to come back to this house of pretend love and support (and real manipulation and illness) and that no one has ever just offered so much help and support and kindness and it's overwhelming. I've always been alone and/or with toxic people.

I'm starting to sleep more and let myself rest. And what was blocking that was me feeling guilty and letting the people I live with who pretend they love me guilt trip me for being home watching tv, the truth is they are the sick ones who ignore and minimize my suffering and I'm not doing it for them anymore. I"m really sick. I will do what I need to do. If they don't want to support me anymore fine. I've let it hurt me ad ruin my life so much I'm becoming numb to it. Time for me to be 100% selfish for once. It's funny I get angry about unloading the dishwasher, I used to be like Cinderella cooking and cleaning for everyone. lol I think I've just had enough.

Wow thanks guys, yeah I am really hard on myself. I need to remember it will get better eventually.

I am constantly exhausted, even when I do nothing at all. I'm kind of more in the depression side of things. Most nights, I wake up generally early in the am and kind of go back to sleep. I wonder if it's also fatigue from the anxiety. But even on a 'good' or better emotional day I feel like I have been hit by a truck at almost all times. Can anyone relate or have any tips. It's such a struggle.