Messages

Interesting tidbit - I just checked the Index for "Coping with Trauma Related Dissociation" (what the Book Club is reading and working through), and there is only one mention of meditation (p. 370 if you have the book). It's just one paragraph about dealing with isolation and loneliness by connecting to your God or the universe through meditation. Other than that, nothing.  I don't want to read too much into this, but it does lead me wonder why mediation is not discussed as a recovery strategy for those of us who use dissociation as a coping strategy.    Food for thought.

To me, the very first exercise is an meditation exercise, to get you in the present moment, to observe instead of being lost in thought. Actively being present = meditation. They just call it something different, same way that mindfulness sometimes get's called ''attention/focus exercise''. I think it's a more practical and suitable form of meditation, a tool to learn to do things differently without going too deep. It's not about how it's called but if it works and the word meditation seems scary for some people..

Your probably quite right, Pieces. Yet, I'm not at that place yet. Far from it. But I have the feeling that by finally venting, expressing my fear/anxiety I am removing the barriers that keep me from 'feeling'. It's a phase I guess.

Sounds good Each step, each phase is important, even (or especially) the tough/scary ones, all though saying things like that is always a lot easier when you've worked through them. Even knowing that it's a two step forward, one step back process I always find staying positive during the one step back part very hard, but recognizing the inner critic part there does help a  lot (You see? It'll never work, you'll never be okay, you'll be miserable forever, because that's all your worth!)

But what about the people who are putting me down? There's plenty of them around on this globe. I do agree though that I have the power to 'not feel down about myself', but when loads of pressure is piled up on me, by people putting me down, is a tough struggle.

My honest answer? People putting you down can only be a problem/painful when their being negative about your resonates with your being negative about you. Even more honest answer? You probably wouldn't experience it as being put down if you weren't busy putting you down. If you weren't busy putting you down you would see their behavior for what it is; it's about themselves. Same way that their experience of you is about them. It's a projection of how they see themselves directed at you. It's not even them being negative about you, it's them being negative. Period. That they direct it at you isn't what it's about.

I don't in any way mean to say you're doing something wrong, because you're absolutely are not, what I mean to say is that when experiencing something like this is an opportunity to ask yourself ''what thought am I believing about myself that makes me experience this this way?''. It's a way to further get clear where you're at in how you view yourself, and how you treat yourself based on that. Now that's extremely though to do when the hurt has been hit and you're properly feeling down. It's probably the last thing you feel like doing at a moment like that. But maybe a while after.

And so I feel that in this stage my focus on removing, distancing me from those who put, pull and keep me down is a good focus. And in order to get there I need my venting of fear/anxiety: preferably at those who do put me down, at the moment they do it. Well, certainly then, when I still run into those who a have kept at bay.

I have found that to be a great focus, and one I needed to create a space safe enough to work on myself. At one point I just couldn't deal with people anymore, in any way. I couldn't face anyone, even with all the medication. How to explain something like that to anyone? When the thought of being seen and/or having to talk to anyone 'simply' debilitates you? I think I would have the same success if I tried to explain someone that one time sneezing gave me a three day anxiety episode.

This is a great thread by the way.

Sure is!

Compulsive thinking for me has always been about venting fear/anxiety, letting some of it out. Or at least , that's how I experienced it. But venting it isn't letting go. It's something that very early on became a way of not dealing with what I was feeling, which in the past was something I needed. It's thinking feeling away, dissociating from them by giving all the attention to thoughts. It's the fear of feeling. Knowing that makes reversing that possible; direct attention at the feeling and getting real close with them. Scary as * at first, I won't lie.

Of course, for a child that feels (deeply) negatively about himself the fantasy of perfectionism (the fantasy of never getting a negative comment/rejection again) is a beautiful dream. I can't recount the number of days (weeks?) I spent (day)dreaming about having a perfect body and everyone liking or even admiring me. It was pretending that then I would never have to feel down about myself anymore. Letting go of that fantasy and accepting that as an adult the only one that can make me feel down about myself is me wasn't easy.

What I have learned about meditation (apologies if this in any way rubs someone the wrong way):

I think here is a difference between meditation with a goal (trying something, trying to get somewhere, usually feeling a certain way) and meditating as in simply being present.

If you are visualizing certain things to feel a certain way (like for instance calm) and it works for you than that's a great way to learn stress management. It's obviously better than smoking, drinking, etc your feelings away. But the idea is kinda the same; I've built up an experience which I now want to go away. That is a practice you'll have to repeat indefinitely because you're treating symptom's. Some people call it a healthy addiction, while a addiction can and never will be really healthy; it's something you're stuck in. Simply being would be a way to start the stress from fully happening. Just notice the thoughts. feelings, emotions and let them be without identifying with them. It comes and it go and you the one who is aware of that. You're the space in which those experiences happen but the experiences are not who you are, no matter what the thoughts tell you. If I'm looking at a wall it means I'm not that wall; if I'm looking a my thought I'm not the thoughts.

Visualization is something you do in and with thoughts, when you give your attention to thoughts you're not present in yourself anymore, and I think that's the opposite way you should be going if you want to get back to yourself. If you meditate trying to control the experience you're having the experience has control over you, which is not what you want if what you want is freedom. Freedom would be to be able to do what you want despite having an experience (like stress/fear) that 'says' otherwise, especially if that experience is past trauma related.

Also a lot of meditation techniques involve counting breaths in a way to control to mind, which reinforces the idea that the mind has to be controlled somehow (which is an idea that comes from the same mind you're trying to control). That way meditating is mind/thought dominated. A thought will say ''my mind is very quiet, I'm doing it right!'' and when you believe that thought the mind had more control over you. Mind  = mind; it's produces thoughts. It's only of consequence when you believe in the thought that thoughts have control over you and thát thought also comes from thát mind. It's basically the mind telling itself how meditation should be going and the meditator confusing her of his self with those thoughts. Now of course the difficulty with this is that when you have been stuck in thought/trance your whole life from an early age, your whole system is wired that way and reversing that is difficult and takes a long, long time. But that shouldn't be a reason to not work on it.

I don't need control over my mind or feelings; I need to let go of believing in the thought (identifying) that my mind (or feelings/emotions) have control over me. I need to let go of the image of me being smaller than my experience. If you believe a thought you'll create that experience. If you repeatedly believe a thought and repeatedly create that experience you condition you mind/body to automatically created that experience to the point that you may forget that that experience is not who you are.

I don't want to sound too blunt but for me it really struck a cord when I realized that my problems with how I feel would only disappear when I stop making a problem with how I feel. If I just feel whatever there is to feel. That really got me thinking ''What is the problem with how I feel?'' and for a long time I gave myself a false answer ''It's because there is a thought that says I shouldn't feel this way'' But a thought itself is never a problem, it was me believing that thought and not seeing it was part of the inner critic; the voices of my parents who would tell me to be quiet whenever I would express emotion and then me feeling down about myself, believing that I was wrong/defective for having those feelings.

Coming to this point took a long time and looking back I had a lot to work through before I could even remotely feel present. That's why I understand very well anyone who says meditation doesn't work for them and I genuinely feel sad hearing those practices getting pushed on anyone. It shows a lack of understanding, which is anything but helpful. In fact, if something doesn't work for someone who is in need then it should fall on the one who is suppose to help to find something that does.

Long story short; be careful with not being tricked into trying to feel a certain way to unconsciously please the inner critic. Don't get caught up in believing thoughts about how you should be feeling. Also, do whatever works for you.

True Meditation Has No Goal - Jeff Foster
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZQshhxqQSs

Well, I guess nobody knows, since so far it has never been possible to do this. I guess that's the reason why they are holding these trials now. To see if in five years from now the 'problem' has only been aggravated, or if really a marked improvement has been achieved.

On the other hand: there are people who emigrate, change their line of work, move to a new city and a new job etc. That's a significant shift from 'the old trusted personality' you had to a 'new unknown personality' you will become. I think that in general people cope quite well with such a huge shift. Though plenty struggle as well.

It will be tough job to 'reinvent' a 'new' you, but likely it's less hard than the work of reliving the trauma time and again or working through it bit by bit.

I once made such a huge shift where I had to ditch all plans for the future, my dreams, my expectations, my outlook. Basically the whole life I had envisaged to live. Once I got going on a new and completely uncertain/unknown track, I had the best time of my life.
It's just a pity I have to do that again now at 50. At 25 I had a lot more energy and youthful 'recklessness'.  (and back then I wasn't traumatized. Certainly not to the level I'm now. Which is a huge difference.)

Good point Perhaps removing the trauma will make the system relax naturally in some way. It still also sounds to me like something that could very wrong but like you said, that's where the trails are for. Would be great if it worked, especially for children, if it would meaning not having to live a life hindered by these kind of obstacles and lots of time to create a stable identity.

My first breakthrough with the inner critic, and thoughts in general, happened when I realized that fighting thoughts is what gives them hold over you. It's what gives them power. It's the the principle of ''what you resist, persists''. Same goes for feelings. My greatest breakthrough was when I realized that thought's weren't who I am; thoughts are just thoughts.

Look at the voice of the inner critic for what it is; a thought. When you're looking at the thought there must be two different things; there's the thought and there's you; the one looking at the thought. If you give all your attention to the thought then that's all you experience. You forget that you're not the thought(s). Take a moment to look at the thoughts the thinking mind produces; thoughts come and go. You the one watching the thoughts. The biggest problem lies in being used to giving the thoughts all your attention. For a child the only way to escape itself is to be lost in thought, in trance, and not being present in life. If you never reversed this process you're probably still lost in thought and only experiencing the thoughts. That's how you lose yourself.

I don't want to pretend this is easy, in any way, but it has really helped me to regularly take a moment to look at what's going on in my thoughts and if I'm caught up in believing that they are real. If I'm stuck in the conditioned story. That way I shift the focus from being lost in thought back to the present moment and makes it possible to focus on my life here and now

I think ultimately the problem with the inner critic is responding to it as if you're still that child, it's about how you view yourself (what thought you believe about yourself) in relation to the critic. The inner critic is part of the trauma which you experience in thoughts and feelings; responding to them may be what keeps them stuck in your system. Simply being aware of those thoughts and feelings, allowing them to be but not acting on them has greatly diminished the hold that once had over me.

I am not sure what would be left of me if the traumatic memories were taken away. Not much, really.

I know this is an old post I'm replying to but for me it really summarized the problem with these kind of ideas; if a person's identity is based on being stuck in trauma and not really living, how helpful can it be to take that away when the person has no idea who he/she is without that? What a shock it would be to lose that, can you imagine?

I think that in order to heal trauma you have to work through it and piece by piece let go of old the old traumatized identity and also replace it piece by piece with new, authentic present day you stable identity.  Without that you'll probably be lost either way, traumatic memories or not.

I really liked that book because it was the first thing to taught me the importance of living through the experience of an traumatic episode instead of merely trying to survive it. Be staying present to the experience you don't get lost in trance (for me that was mostly trying to compulsively fight the feeling with thoughts) and you can learn that the experience is not something to be afraid of. It can be extremely uncomfortable and unpleasant but you can take it, or learn to do so. That way the conditioned ''This is too much for me / I can't take this / I'm helpless / etc'' ideas you about yourself can start to be broken down and replaced with an ''I can'' conviction. Also the information about the fear energy getting stuck in the body and then influence the nervous system was very helpful and insightful, definitely as must read in my opinion, if only to understand what's going on in your body better.

What didn't work for me, and I expect for other people with c-ptsd as well, is the mentioned ''past trauma doesn't need to be focused on''. Peter Levine's sees the trauma as purely physical; it's something the body does and when you teach the body to relax and let go you're good to go again. That may be true for trauma experienced later on in life but c-ptsd is I think much more about identity and the deep rooted conviction that for you/me being present in life and living a real is unsafe. Behind that conviction sits the unhealed trauma, which had to be pushed away because it would have been too much to handle at that time. Unhealed trauma, repressed memories etc is something that books skips on completely.

There is another method called TRE; trauma releasing exercises, which also focuses purely on the body. It did those multiple times and it didn't do anything for my state of mind.

I can relate to this well. One of the things that really struck a chord with me is when I learned about the concept of  Learned Helplessness. A habit difficult to 'kick', but I think I'm slowly making progress.

Yeah it's definitely tough. Also because when I was a child my helplessness wasn't seen and not responded to, making it even more traumatizing and fearful. The fear of feeling helpless made me feel helpless which made me panic and feeling more helpless; a prefect recipe for a downward spiral.

A while back I realized that those high energy states of a real big panic is actually when you're at your strongest physically, heart pounding, adrenaline levels through the roof, etc. but that state for me has always been associated with weakness, feeling helpless and 'needing' to get away. That has always been a big part of my identity, without any questioning. Now I can see that as an idea about myself that had formed because of circumstances. I guess now it's a matter of time to 'teach' my brain and body that those are old ideas, not longer relevant so that the fear that is stuck in my body can be let go of at some point. Sure would be nice

You're more then welcome to start your journey here, and I hope, wish and trust you'll find this a good place for the 'tee-off'. 

I understand you've already made yourself familiar with the site and community, so I gather you've acquainted yourself with much of the recourses provided.
For clarity's sake I want to point you to the  Guidelines for All Members and Guests which is there to provide a core 'code of conduct' to keep the site a safe, open and welcoming environment for all of us.

Welcome again, and for speaking out and letting yourself be heard. I'm looking forward to listening to you some more.


Dutch Uncle.

Thank you

Hi Pieces and welcome! 

Wow, I relate to what you wrote 100%. Thank you for saying hi and sharing a little bit about your journey. The part about helplessness definitely gives me something to think about.

Thank you for taking the risk of being seen. It's good to meet you.

Thank you

Hi. I've never done anything like this before. Talking about myself anywhere other than in therapy. I feel I at least need to try it, even if it's just once. So I'll see what comes up and try to bring it in a way that resembles something you would call coherent.

I don't know what to say, not really. I don't know how to voice it. It's there, I know it, the hole in my head that I can't reach. It's from that unreachable place that the breach in experiencing myself starts. I'm in pieces, sometimes the experience of myself, especially after one of those extreme panics, is so fragmented it's hard to tell what part I'm feeling. I'm aware of feeling fragmented which means I'm still here, I'm also not afraid of feeling that way but it also feels like something that will never heal. Sometimes I can barely feel my body, making walking a very wobbly experience.

I heard about c-ptsd for the first time a while ago and recognized a lot, if not all, of the symptoms. I read a term that really stuck with me 'situations of prolonged helplessness''. I kept coming back to it and a while later it hit me; all my life I have felt helpless, completely and utterly helpless. ''There's no point, it's no use, it always ends in pain....'' My life, how everything went, is not because I'm someone who is in some way just wrong but because I'm someone who has always felt totally helpless. Discovering this was so great because now every time something I fear comes up I know that to learn how not to be helpless I have to face it. I felt then and feel now knowing that has helped and is helping with getting further with feeling less helpless and less afraid of fear.

While searching some more on c-ptsd I found this forum, which I like reading, and somehow I didn't want this to be another place where I lurk around, not 'showing' myself, being unseen. Always the outsider because ''staying out is the only way to keep safe''. That's how my life feels; staying out of life, believing it's not for me. Before my breaking point I would only do things (very) sedated and when that's was no option I would be very far away in thoughts. Classic dissociation, escaping expercience.

I've come a long way these last 7-8 years but talking with people is still really is difficult. In real life there always is that fear that it could turn personal without an escape (the fact that that's a real concern of mine shows how much of a problem that still is for me). It's a deep rooted conviction I'm aware of ''I don't want to be seen it hurts too much'' but being aware isn't enough as long as I keep living that way. I have to start somewhere so why not here?