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Hey storyworld,

To me, therapy and seeing someone else as safe can be tricky. I think I was a couple years into therapy with my last t when I shared that I felt like she didn't like me, which she countered, and that provoked a shift between us. I think we go in with parts/perceptions etc that we're not even aware of. This was EMDR therapy and not parts work, however.

I also ended therapy with that t after seven years because I felt like I wasn't able to open up any more with the way things were going. I had read about NARM and the concept of fostering agency (finding Self for me with preverbal and likely generational trauma has been tricky), and I felt like this was the next step. I feel like I've made a lot of progress in the last year around my emotional reactions to things.

I tell myself, come next session, I'm going to do better, and develop a plan to do so

When I first read your post, I wondered if there were parts active in sense that you feel like you have to fix yourself (ie there's something wrong with you; you're not normal etc), which is a part, and then there's likely a part that then opposes this, which seems justifiable. I've found that sometimes it helps to recognize opposing parts, and this then opens up a space around them. It might be worth exploring this with your t as well.

I've also just learned about parts which can appear Self like and are dominant, meaning that they like to run the show a lot of the time, and given that they were probably around for me from being a young child, it's hard to recognize them as something other than Self. I'm also learning that inner critics can work like this as well.

Congratulations on your self awareness around this and I hope it brings you to the next step in therapy.

Sending you support,
dolly

Hi SO,

Good for you for saying something and setting a boundary with your m, and I hope she responded well?

Sending you support,
dolly

Well done Matilda 

It seems to me that you're quite self aware about how you're relating (and not relating) to your parts.

She has not appeared again and I was expressing to T that I was actually quite relieved about that in some ways. That I would much rather deal with the "nice" younger child.

This is interesting as it reminds me of how much easier it is for a narc to deal with a child than a bolshy teenager. It is someone that they have more power over, or someone who they can wield that power over more easily. I was so afraid of being that bolshy teenager myself, and was really aware of not wanting to create problems for my gm like other teenagers would. I thought it was because I loved her and was doing the "right" thing by looking out for her. I didn't realize that I was cutting off my own power as I'd been trained to do because she couldn't deal with it as a "normal" caregiver would. That maybe it was ok to be a bolshy teenager myself.

I would also say that Self doesn't not like parts/not relate to parts, but is accepting and curious about all parts. So, perhaps the part that is not getting along with the teenager part is an opposing part, and maybe that's the part you're suspecting that was involved in the session. I've had some opposing parts myself and not sure if they ever had a "resolution" per se, but sometimes it's just helpful to start to recognize that they exist.

nd even that leads me to wonder whether some part was involved in the session with T because adult NK is perfectly capable of dealing nicely with teenagers, even bolshy ones, and not taking their more obnoxious behaviours to heart.

It's interesting too because (I think) in Self Therapy (though I can't find the reference) he talks about six (?) types of parts that can be present ie a rationalizing/intellectualizing part. So, perhaps this could be the part that's taking things offline, but there might be more there with the oppositional part.

After going through trying to find the reference, it's reminded me that I should go back to doing some reading on IFS! So, thanks for that. 

It is intellectually very interesting to consider the concept of parts - but emotionally I find it very challenging.

Yes, for me as well. Reading about NARM and how those with a connection attachment style are far more comfortable in the intellect than their own bodies as a result of feeling that the world was unsafe from a very young age helped me sort of understand this, and that these things are likely coming from a very young part (as t put it - a preverbal part). I'm always sort of aware that this sense of "fear" is affecting how I relate to other people/the world around me. Being in my head is one way I can manage this. 

Hey NK,

I'm a big fan of IFS and it's one of the things that has helped me to step outside of m intellectual side and get through to my emotions (at times). I think before I tried IFS, it was as if these emotions were something I was supposed to feel, or going through the motion of what I thought x emotion would be like. However, it was also as if there was "something" limiting it.

In my experience, I've met parts/had IFS experiences that I didn't understand, and took research, and/or am still going back to them today for meaning and understanding. IFS can show you something, but it doesn't mean there's the capacity to readily understand it in my experience. I have also had parts come up that I wasn't ready for/didn't want to look at/made me uncomfortable. For example, there was a "spoiled" part, that I really sort of dismissed right away until I made some connections to my gm and overindulgences in the middle of the night the other week, and then the idea of that part resurfaced. For reference, I have parts that aren't just "me" looking - ie adult/child, but colours, old woman (not me) etc.

I think I am very used to (ie it's SAFE) batting these things from my subconcscious out of my field of view because it's through this controlled environment (ie emotions, managing perception of events/relationships etc) that I've managed to survive. So, when things come up that challenge this field of view, I can dismiss them quite quickly because they don't make "sense." However, and I feel like this has been coming up more with t lately, is that when I am pushed about something there are emotions that come up around that thing, and it's not that "easy" to say ok, let's look at these emotions (or likely parts. This seems like a relatively small thing, but I think in the past I would have just dismissed what t was asking quite quickly with no understanding as to why, but thinking that it "felt" right. I also feel like understanding the mechanism of scapegoating and why I have likely pushed these things down is helping too. Anyways, I'm digressing.

I haven't read it, but maybe Richard Schwartz's No Bad Parts might be useful to you in helping to see what parts are taking NK adult part offline.

Sending you support,
dolly

As a kid I was taught that I can easily get into trouble by wanting or saying something different from what my M wanted me to say or do. She had rules, many of them, some were changing day after day. Nothing I did was ever right and when she punished me, she made sure that I know it's all my fault. By wanting something I risked being abandoned emotionally, to say the least. My M often punished me by simply not talking to me. Can you imagine what that does to a helpless child?

Hey Dalloway,

I'm sorry you're going through this. My m used to do the same thing to me to punish me and would often give me the silent treatment. Children will do anything that they need to do in order to preserve the relationship with the caregiver because without it, they can't survive in the world. I've been learning a lot from Jay Reid's videos on youtube lately about what this did to my inner world and how it shows up for me now. I think it's been pretty helpful.

Sending you support,
dolly

Hey Storyworld,

I also have disorganized attachment, or am Fearful Avoidant, and yep I've been there with the feelings of wanting to terminate. Vulnerability is especially difficult for FAs I think because they usually grow up in an unsafe environment, and even if there's no explicit memory of that unsafe environment, the forces that shaped that attachment are still there. I have very much ended relationships (usually more dating/casual relationships), very quickly after I felt some sort of abandonment or something that didn't feel "safe."

I also had a great experience breaking through to these different parts of myself when I tried IFS.

Sending you support,
dolly

Hi EVader,

Welcome to the forum 

I hope you find what you need here.

Sending you support,
dolly

Congrats PC    This seems like a very important realization

Hi Dalloway,

I'm sorry that you're feeling that way right now. I understand those dreams and find them distressing, but perhaps your subconscious is helping you deal with some emotions.

I've been listening to some of Jay Reid's videos on the scapegoat child of the narcissist. They've been really enlightening and eye-opening to help understand some of my inner experience growing up. One of the things he talks about is that any kind of self-activation (exercise, frienships, connection etc) actually brings up the feeling of aloneness in the scapegoated child that they had to mitigate because of the narcissistic parent. So, while other people can enjoy those things with ease, it brings up uncomfortable feelings in the scapegoated child that they had to deal with alone. For me, sometime alone feels safer. It's not even a conscious effort on my part either. It's like when a connection presents itself (let's say "positive," or healthy, but outside of the role I knew growing up ie caretaking, and suppressing my own feelings), it's like something in my just shuts down, or mutes as he describes it.

I feel like listening to these videos is helpful to start unpacking this process, one that's always sort of remained hidden in my subconscious reactions.

Sending you support and a hug if that's ok 
dolly

Hi Cascade,

Welcome back to the forum and congratulations on your healing and the progress you've made.

I remember you from before and nothing springs to mind about how you might have upset others.

I hope you find what you need here.

Sending you support,
dolly

Congrats Dalloway    Good for you for making a decision about what you want to do.

When I decided that I wanted to do a master's my t at the time said, congrats even if it doesn't work out. If Im remembering correctly, at the time I took that really badly, like what do you mean it won't work out? In the end, I ended up leaving early and it "didn't work out," but it set me on a path making decision for myself when I'd been so wrapped up in what would my FOO think. It was just really, really hard to see that at the time, and didn't sink in for another 13 years. Anyways, I think it was a really important step to do that, even if it didn't "work out," and I think it's great you're doing the same for yourself.

Sending you support,
dolly

Did a search on the forum for inflammation and realized I've brought it up quite a few times, but may have not linked evidence to inflammation and emotional regulation. Peripheral inflammation is important because it can lead to the activating the central nervous system ie the amygdala, which is responsible for our fight/flight reactions.

The following paper looks at inflammation and the effect on emotional regulation (specifically, ADHD, BPD, etc). There's quite a few things that can fall under peripheral inflammation, including gut dysbiosis, but it also focuses on early life stress as a precursor for peripheral inflammation. IMO while early life stress may have set the initial conditions for peripheral inflammation, it doesn't mean that dysregulated systems in the body can completely be offset with stress reduction. I also think that the terms they are using are clinical (ie BD, BPD, and ADHD) and there is no clinical diagnosis of cptsd. Therefore, to me, the symptoms falling under these clinical diagnosis would/may also be applicable to cptsd. The GI tract is also linked to the vagus nerve, or the centre for fight/flight.

Inflammation and emotion regulation: a narrative review of evidence and mechanisms in emotion dysregulation disorders
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10653990/

The paper states:
"There is also mounting evidence to suggest that dysregulated or imbalanced gut microbiota can increase inflammation in the body and the brain and affect various mental illnesses, including BD [130,139,239]. One of the putative mechanisms connecting the gut, inflammation, and the brain is that gut dysbiosis induces alterations in GI permeability, allowing bacteria and proinflammatory products of their metabolism into the blood. Their presence could trigger or enhance peripheral inflammation, potentially weaken the BBB, and affect brain circuits directly through translocation or indirectly through inflammation, exacerbating a vicious cycle of heightened inflammation and consequent structural and functional damage"

And addressing the connection to BD (bipolar disorder) and IBS:
"Findings favouring an association between inflammation and GI disturbances in BD come from a previous umbrella review, which revealed that irritable bowel syndrome (IBS), which is frequently associated with heightened peripheral inflammation [244], was identified as a potential risk factor for the disorder, meeting class I criteria [193]. This association seems generalizable to mood disorders, as also observed in patients with MDD [245]. Nevertheless, there is preliminary evidence indicating higher IBS rates in BD patients with history of severe ELS, while in patients with MDD the IBS prevalence remains the same regardless of ELS history or severity."

As well:
"Moreover, in one recent work on a cohort of 1072 adult BD patients, the same authors built a data-driven 'allostatic load index' including biomarkers of inflammation (CRP and albumin), cardiovascular risk (diastolic and systolic blood pressure), metabolism of lipids (triglycerides), and metabolism of glucose (fasting glucose), which could predict with 81.1% accuracy if the patients presented non-elevated or elevated emotional reactivity [103]. Notably, the subjects with predicted emotional hyper-reactivity were also the ones with poorer cognitive functioning and overall functioning, independent of other confounding covariates. These promising results suggest that the index was able to capture clinically relevant aspects of the disorder, further emphasizing the link between altered emotional reactivity (which is a starting point for altered ER processes) and integrative measures of body dysfunction, including inflammation."

With regards to ADHD:
"The frequent co-occurrence of ADHD and autoimmune and inflammatory comorbidities, including eczema [323], atopic dermatitis [324], allergic rhinitis, asthma [324], and psoriasis [325] (see also [323] for a meta-analysis) has raised the possibility of a neuropathological role of the immune system and inflammation in ADHD [61,79], as in other EDD."

This article is regarding long Covid, but there are many different latent viral infections that can exist in the body (ie EBV, herpes simplex 1&2, coxsackie etc). Latent viral infections trigger chronic inflammation in the body, which can then lead to CNS activation. Latent viral infections can also be a trigger to autoimmune conditions, which create further inflammation in the body.

The Long COVID Puzzle: Autoimmunity, Inflammation, and Other Possible Causes
https://www.yalemedicine.org/news/the-long-covid-puzzle-autoimmunity-inflammation-and-other-possible-causes

https://febs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/febs.15871
Mechanisms of viral persistence in the brain and therapeutic approaches

"Although many viral infections of the CNS are believed to be cleared rapidly and efficiently by the immune system, some viruses become chronic infections and undergo restricted viral replication. During this phase, the immune response is much more tempered; however, it can still cause ongoing brain damage and dysfunction. Some viruses may establish a true latency in the brain. During this phase, no viral progeny is formed and no immune response is generated. It is unclear if there is any persistent brain injury or dysfunction from the latent virus but if the virus reactivates, it may result in manifestations of acute or chronic infections. In addition to the pathologies listed above, neurodegenerative diseases, including dementia, HIV-associated neurocognitive disorder (HAND) [[8]], Alzheimer's disease [[9]], amyotrophic lateral sclerosis (ALS) [[10-12]], and some forms of Parkinson's disease [[13]], are suspected to be associated with chronic viral infections. Unfortunately, viral infections can be difficult to detect in the CNS, thereby making associations with pathologies challenging"

"However, ongoing viral activity in the absence of sterilizing immunity triggers chronic inflammation in the CNS that also contributes to pathology."

Hi Blue Moon,

Welcome to the forum  I hope you find what you need here.

Sending you support,
dolly

Hey SO,

That's great about your sleep and hope that it continues for you.

Yes, it's good to prioritize your mental health. For me, I'm thinking along the lines of Bernie Sanders btw and there's some hope in how he approaches things over the terror of the news. Perhaps there is a part of me that wants connection over disconnection after all.

Sending you support,
dolly