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[she was making me invisible in the process]

It is difficult Big Blue, or at least it was for me. I pretty much had to stop myself each time for a long while and figure out if I was other referencing. If I did not feel like I/my needs were being taken into account, either by me or the other person I would make a real effort to pull back inside my body and end the one-sided dialogue ASAP.

When my NM was alive she would talk right over top of me (and I let her because if I didn't she would do the hurt thing) until one day I could see very clearly she was making me invisible in the process and it really hurt every time she did it). I just up and calmly and firmly said something to the effect of "Wait a minute please, I didn't finish what I was saying" and it stopped her cold. The next time she did it I out and out told her she needed to stop talking over top of me, that it was rude and made me feel bad. She was very much taken aback but she finally learned I had boundaries, that I was not just a set of ears put on this earth to listen to her prattle on and on.

A bit of a chuckle - my H is awesome at dealing with people who hog the stage. We had a neighbour some time back who would talk endlessly and had me caught one day. My H just started up the lawnmower near where we were talking and that gave me an out. Can't talk over that!     

Hi and a warm welcome to Out of the Storm Layla 

Good for you on your recovery, you've done some amazing work!    I think you'll find this group will help too as we do get it. 

Hi Mamatus:

I'm sorry you are having a particularly tough time at the moment. Over the years here there seems to be two main ways members deal with the Inner Critic that work. The first is to challenge what it is saying to you. The second is to make peace with your ICr by talking with it and calming it (E.g., I know you're trying to help me stay safe by keeping me quiet, isolated and invisible but I've got this now, I will keep us safe). 

The first worked best for me because when I compared myself to those who abused me and others who were not exactly positive human beings, the criticisms just did not hold up. I began to see myself as what I truly am and that is a decent, caring person who does not hurt others.

Whatever works for you of course   

Hey Big Blue, as often happens when I read your posts I find myself saying "Yes!"

Several years ago I came across something to do with the being "other-referenced" versus "self-referenced". It rang so true because in my family of origin I had to constantly be on the lookout for anger leading to abuse/neglect so I was very "other-referenced" as a way of keeping as safe as I could. This carried over to all my encounters with others and I kept losing myself. I did not know who I was and how to reside in my own body. I always allowed myself to be pulled out by others and the main strategy I had was to be overly interested in them and overly empathetic to anything they were going through. It was a kind of fawning response but it did keep me safe or so I thought. What that led to is as you write "And what emerges is exactly what hurts so deeply: the feeling that something fundamentally human - reciprocal empathy - is missing."  I did not ask for reciprocity, I made it seem like I didn't need it so of course people were happy to talk about themselves. It's not something that grows genuine relationships though.

At some point I knew I had to start self-referencing and it was difficult I will admit. There was no roadmap other than when I felt myself being overly concerned with others I needed to pull back and try to look after me. That felt selfish for the longest while. I also starting pulling back from people who only have the capacity to talk about themselves. Now people who do that actually make me angry because I grew up with N's and it drags me back to my roots, a place I don't want to go. When you can't get a word in edgewise it says something about that person, and it's nothing I want to rescue them from anymore or expend my energy on. That sounds a bit brutal as I write it, but I am not talking about people who need genuine empathy, support, compassion, etc. It's those who are only to happy to take up airspace without reciprocity - big red flag for me these days.

Anyway, now I feel like I am much more regulated which is to say it feels like I have an authentic interest in others and genuine empathy that I don't get lost in. I do still have to watch myself because old habits die hard, but what helps is knowing about being self versus other referenced. I can hear myself telling myself nowadays to stay in my body and make sure I remain regulated in relationships.

Great post, thanks!

Awesome post TBB!  This would make a great article for the OOTS Blog if you ever feel like you want to write it up. (No pressure though). The blog is here - https://www.outofthestorm.website/guest-bloggers.

That's awesome Teddy Bear! I'd be interested to hear what the study is about if you're allowed to share about it.

Hi and a warm welcome to Out of the Storm Mammatus

A lot of us here are very familiar with perfectionism and being high achieving that never quite seems to fill in the emptiness and leaves us exhausted. It's tough we know so I'm glad you found us. I hope you find it helps to talk with others who do know what you are going through and can share what helped them and provide some support/comfort so those dark days are not quite as lonely and bleak.

 

Hey Blue Sky, big hug as I know that would definitely stir up a lot of emotions for the reasons NK suggests 

I know one place my mind went to is "Will he abuse her too?" I wonder what if anything he thinks to himself knowing what what he did to you now that he has a child. Maybe he's able to stuff it down but hopefully she will like "a burr under the saddle" for him. We can only hope.
 

SO, I don't speak French but tks for being willing to look up the link. 

It is rather depressing to hear of so much predatory sexual abuse/trafficking in the news at the moment. At the same time, I think (hope) this is a wake up call about what is happening behind a LOT of closed doors.

I see so many resigning/ being fired in the fallout from the Epstein files and it gives me hope that we can hold abusers accountable, even if they are rich and powerful. I must admit I cheered when King Charles stripped his brother Andrew of his titles and royal goodies. It sends a very powerful message worldwide and we need that, to know that powerful people will be outed and punished. I know Trump hasn't been but I think (hope) that it's a matter of when not if.  Fingers crossed!

"Shame must change sides". Absolutely!

Have you read the book yet SO? I remember when her story first came out I was amazed she had chosen to disclose publicly and say "No!" to shame. So courageous because although she did not own the shame (as we do not), I know there were those who questioned how she could not have known even having been drugged.

If you've read the book I'm curious to know if she talks about having CPTSD given she was drugged and unconscious when the abuse occurred. It must have been psychologically shattering to discover the years of abuse no matter what, but it's different in a way than being aware of our abuse even if we dissociate because the memories are there if deep down. Part of us knows whereas for her, there are no memories.   

Hi and a warm welcome to Out of the Storm Moshi 

Just my thoughts here but it takes a while when building relationships to have the kind of connection and trust to begin to share anything about our trauma. I like your idea of starting here and getting that feeling of connection, understanding and support you want (and deserve). We get it and we're going to be here for you whilst those who are non-survivors may be intimidated, perhaps even a bit overwhelmed to hear about your past unless they have come to know you well first.

It's hard I know but not everyone who is a non-survivor is secure enough in themselves to treat any disclosures from us with the respect and compassion we need. That's why it is so good you found your way here because we are 

Hey Mia - Hi and a warm welcome to Out of the Storm! 

I a so sorry you struggle to convey what happened to you (and I think a lot did happen to you). IMO neglect results in CPTSD because it is a form of abuse, just less visible - abuse by omission if you will.

At least here we do understand and I think (hope) if you can summon up the strength to keep looking, you will be able to find a therapist who does get it.

 

Hey Stussy, so sorry to hear about the nightmares. I know how frightening they can be and why you wouldn't want to talk about them. I have to agree with NarcKiddo that you may find it helps to "defuel" them by talking about them with your H. Stuffing them may feel safer and yet ironically it can give them more power.

All that said, you know you best and if you need to push away from them for now, then that may be the most helpful thing to do until you're ready to bring them out into the light of day for some "sunshine therapy"  and the power of connection (i.e. with your H). 

 

Sorry to hear you've had negative and lasting experiences with medications Roger. I was addicted to benzos about 2-1/2 years back and fortunately my withdrawal was well managed in hospital and I've not ended up with any ill effects thankfully. I also had to titrate off Prozac when it stopped working and I did that with the help of my GP, again no ill effects. It seems like you have not had the support or information you needed. 

Have you talked with your GP about all of this? Good place to start and they can likely refer you to whatever specialist would know best about these symptoms and how to help. (And if your GP is not particularly helpful maybe it's time to look for a new, better informed and helpful GP.)

I'm just spit balling here but I wonder if a pharmacist might have some answers for you? Here in Canada our pharmacists are doing much more than handing out prescriptions these days. It may be they have information about what's going on and can talk with you and your GP. I know mine was quite helpful when I had ovarian cancer and was having difficulty with steroids in my chemo cocktail (explained to me that some people become quite agitated like me and so I was confident pushing for that to be removed from my chemo which the team did), and with nausea (spoke to my cancer team and insurance and got approval to give me the "gold standard" of medication which really did the trick).  It might be worth a conversation with a pharmacist.

I hope you're able to get some answers and better yet, some relief from the symptoms you're dealing with   

Hannah, this is awesome and I am so very glad for you. Stories like yours are the reason I advocate for us to healthcare professionals and institutions. Imagine how things would have been if you'd had a clinician who knew about, understood and had experienced medical trauma way back when.

There is so much more science to each of us than even we know sometimes and as we all explore this terrible fate of CPTSD and what it does to us mentally and physically, hopefully we can shine a light on the impact and losses we experience so we have access to the care we need and deserve.

I hope you are on a good path that will help relieve a lot of what you've been dealing with!!