Example: "Fake it 'til you make it."
I don't know what motivational speaker I first heard that from, but I have heard it repeated more times than I can count from well-meaning friends, family, and advisors. It always comes up in reference to jobs and career advice.
I only now realize how profoundly easy it was, and still is, for me to internalize advice, and make it a fundamental part of my guiding values. (I have no identity of my own, I am a rag doll made of scraps of other people's passions, hobbies, and pursuits.)
On one hand, my interpretation of this advice (and I'm sure others like it) has helped me get where I am now, a consultant who makes decent money when I'm working, and able to carry on conversations with just about anybody of any rank or status. I'm pretty good at "faking it."
Only now, I have come to realize that after all these years of faking it, I am exhausted. I have faked it, but never really "made it" as the cliche promises. I feel like a fake person. I feel like an imposter on the job.
I failed to really examine that shallow advice and find out what happens next. Exactly how is one supposed to make sure that faking leads to making, and not to unmitigated disaster, or worse, learning how to lie? Or never learning the difference between a lie and a legitimate coping strategy?
Oh, hey, I really hear you on this one! I faked myself right into a life that doesn't feel like it is really mine!
Also, common sense is really not common for me. When someone says That's just common sense, I am thinking Really?, that is news to me.
Trite advice is a big turn off for me. It is intellectually lazy on the part of the giver for a start as they are often repeating something rather than thinking about how it really applies in their lives, let alone the lives of others. In worst case scenario's they may even just be trying to make life easier for themselves by fobbing others off with pseudo-wisdom from a motivational poster they happened to come across on Facebook the previous day.
Well, that's my outer critic up and running.
Even the term "Fake it" has no real place in a dialogue that is supposed to contain some wisdom. Yeah, like being artificial is a really, really wise thing to do.
Better to concentrate on the sincerity of one's heart and learn to respect it. That at least has some authenticity to it!
I think for non-traumatised people "fake it til you make it" can be good enough advice...but to a person whose need to somehow fit in, to make it work because we are hiding and frantically paddling under the surface is acute then it can feel more like a life or death strategy. Sometimes I think CPTSD is just like the average human condition ramped up to an insane degree. Everyone hurts but if you are CPTSD Jeezy Creezy does it hurt SO much more! We all have moments of self doubt but if you are CPTSD it feels like the bottom has fallen out of your very being...So coping strategies attain such an importance that we forget they are just coping strategies, not actual principles we can live full, productive lives with.
Unlearning stuff is hard but at least it's easier when it so manifestly fails in it's main mission.
But then do we really feel we have 'made it' until a degree of self-acceptance and healing has taken place? Without that foundation there can be a lot of window dressing...but just being here, discussing stuff amidst people who have and are living this stuff marks, at the very least, a solid start in that direction.
You have a good heart, voiceless :-) and that is more important than any trite advice or results thereof :-) As far as I'm concerned you have most certainly made it.
Yeah, and what about "You can be anything you want to be." "You can do anything you put your mind to."
They forgot to tell me I have to PICK SOMETHING. I have been, always, and continue to this day, to want to be EVERYTHING AT ONCE. It took a colleague at a job a couple years ago to point out to me, that my professional interests are scattered. He was a very wise soul for his age, and he was as kind and tactful as a person could be in explaining to some nut job that she CAN'T be everything.
I immediately recognized the truth in what he said, and a career coach said basically the same thing about my resume - I need a narrative that makes sense.
But the problem is, nothing about my history makes any sense to me, and I am overwhelmed every time I try.
Personal branding. Online presence. Tag line, elevator pitch, etc. A freaking BUSINESS NAME. All of these things I understand, and I know they build credibility in today's professional world.
But they all shine a glaring spotlight on my absence of identity. I feel like an unprepared soloist, center stage when the curtains go up, millions of people waiting expectantly for something brilliant to happen... but I got nothin'.
I don't lack confidence. I earned my Bachelor's degree with a 3.9 GPA. I could learn rocket science if that's what I decided I wanted to do. But I have zero direction, and I have zero money, and the pressure is on full force for me to just get a freakin' job. And no matter what, I'm guaranteed that any job I manage to get right now, is going to be another "miss," maybe not a failure, but I am not READY.
I guess that's why I'm stewing in resentment over those STUPID inspirational messages that are constantly bouncing around in my head. Reminding me just how easy it is for them. Those who know who they are and have had their job title, their profession, nailed down for years.
Oh Honey, you hit it so right on the head. Sloganeering severely pisses me off to a level that I feel I have to slap someone with a wet noodle.
Can you accept that your memory centers are temporarily injured? That if you give yourself a chance, and lower the stimulation and sympathetic nervous system activation, these centers will repair naturally, and you focus will start coming back....
The more angry you get at yourself, the longer it will take. :stars:
God, I sooooooo understand, being a fellow overachiever. :hug:
I hate those messages.
Quote from: flookadelic...they are often repeating something rather than thinking about how it really applies in ... the lives of others. In worst case scenario's they may even just be trying to make life easier for themselves by fobbing others off ...
Exactly. I've got a theory about this. I live in my head too much, sorry. It's like this. Most people think that things happen on a sliding scale. Take for example a lack of sleep. Most people know what it's like to not sleep enough: you feel tired. So they assume that true insomnia is like that, only worse. They think there's a seamless transition from "mild tiredness" on the left hand side of the scale to "really bad tiredness" on the right hand side.
BUT. On this scale, at some point, there's a red dotted line. When you cross it, things
abruptly get a LOT worse. Also, you get new symptoms that weren't there before.
But people in general don't know that. They still think that "zero hours of sleep during the past week" is only a more tired variation of that one time they pulled an all-nighter to prepare for an exam. And for that reason, they'll chirp: "Sleeplessness? Oh yes, I know
all about that! Just put your feet up for about ten minutes and you'll be fine!"
So I'm starting to suspect that the only good advice you'll get comes from people who (A) have the same problem, and (B) have the same
stage of the same problem. If you're battling a depression, is it helpful if someone who's only ever dabbled in its shallows pipes up about how she "only needed to take a daily hour-long walk" and she was "just fine"? You've crossed so many dotted lines, going from "sadness" to "mild depression" to "ugh this is really bad" to "why can't the world end right now". Each of those dotted lines was a game-changer. Mere "sadness" rules DO NOT APPLY TO YOU. If you're in the armageddon stage of depression, you need to know the armageddon rules. You can snap out of "sadness", sometimes. You can't snap out of armageddon.
CPTSD itself is a prime example of how that works. If you get traumatized enough for long enough, without enough of a reprieve, then eventually things will cross a line. People who have been traumatized in a non-PTSD way will tell you: "you must confront your demons". But maybe you're in that raw, excrutiating, extreme stage of trauma right now. And in that stage, confronting our demons is as sensible (or NOT) as confronting the truck that's just flattened you. You don't confront the truck, in that stage. You move
away from the truck. You avoid
anything truck-shaped for a really long while, until you've begun to heal. Simple common sense. And if someone chirps up about "oh yes, I know where you're at, my brother once ran over my foot with his tricycle", then - well. They don't know any better.
Aaand I've de-reailed the thread. Back on topic. Sorry, I hope this didn't sound preachy. Thing is, my FOO bombarded me with "good advice" from an early age, and I got yet more "good advice" from people around me. So this was something I just had to figure out. I was just so relieved when I realized all that, I probably still tend to be a bit too over-excited about this thing. Also, it's probably a thing everyone else knew all along.
After finding a career I absolutely loved and was good at I had to retire due to my fibromyalgia overwhelming me. I found the career by volunteering at something I thought I'd enjoy and that would be worthwhile. I met amazing people and things just naturally developed from there. You can volunteer to tidy up gardens for the elderly to helping out at soup kitchens to...well...there are so many people who need our efforts. Placing effort where people need it never really feels like a mistake. Volunteering has a certain moral cachet to it which means one is free from criticism whilst doing it, and it can open up a new chapter of ones life. Just a thought.
Hi. I just want to say that I love this thread.
I actually once had a therapist push "fake it 'til you make it" and other trite advice on me as if it were therapy, and when I inevitably failed to fake it until I made it, I was shamed for not having tried hard enough and was eventually fired by the therapist! I had tried to talk about my past with her, and her attitude was like, "That's unfortunate, but we need to talk about the present." :doh:
Sadly, I didn't know any better because I was young and she was my first therapist, so I believed that I was a bad person because I was not able to try hard enough to achieve results, and this intensified all the awful feelings that had led me there in the first place. So I have an enormous chip on my shoulder when it comes to all such facile suggestions.
marycontrary, :hug:
I can absolutely, accept that my memory centers are probably injured, in fact, I didn't really know that was a thing... I mean, I've read about that since I first learned about Pete Walker, and it made sense that I probably have that, but how it manifests in my current situation, still wasn't sure.
However, somehow I seem to instinctively understand that I need this down time right now, and I trust that the game is far from over.
Also, just fyi, I'm fighting more than just my IC... I'm not putting that much pressure on myself, to get back in the game, but my boyfriend is! He tries to understand, (the worst part is that he thinks he DOES understand) but I have been unable - so far - to make him understand why I need this down time, and why I'm not ready yet.
cat,
LOL, don't worry you did not de-rail the thread! Thank you for the description. I've never seen anybody describe it like that, maybe that will help me explain it to my boyfriend or someone else. I do get that people in general just have no frame of reference. It's like trying to explain a migraine to someone who has never had one, and they say, "Oh yeah I get bad headaches too. Why don't you just try (ice packs or any random stupid home remedy)? It helps me!" I want to GIVE them a real migraine! (Idea for a superhero superpower, perhaps?)
flook, I love the idea of volunteering, and I plan on doing that, but right now I can't even afford the gas to drive back & forth on a regular basis. :(
Mourningdove, Wow, sounds like you had a horrible therapist! I'm so sad/angry for you having to go through that. I'm so GLAD though, that you eventually figured out that the problem was her, not you! I have not had any therapists that bad, but I have had plenty who just IGNORED this whole PTSD or CPTSD aspect, in fact "helping" me rule it out as a possibility, (nobody ever explained what a flashback was, so I always said I don't have them) and although they helped me see that what happened to me was indeed squarely within the definition of abuse and assault, they did NOTHING to help me recover and re-build myself. So, here I am at age 47 just barely beginning to get the therapy I actually needed over 30 years ago. I had my second session last Thursday. Yeah, I'm a little bitter. :-\
Thanks, Voice. I've spent the past few days worried that I was too preachy. Phew. I like this theory a lot, because it finally let me understand why people say stupid things... Before, I was always torn: on the one hand side, people spout callous nonsense; on the other hand, they clearly mean well...
Voice and Mourningdove, my therapist wasn't exactly a paragon of helpfulness either. She didn't really listen, and she triggered me once with a failed attempt at EMDR. Back then, I was really struggling. Every little thing always had huge effects. Every little bit of kindness made a world a lot more bearable. Every little bit of cruelty or callousness made things enormously more difficult.
QuoteI've got a theory about this. I live in my head too much, sorry. It's like this. Most people think that things happen on a sliding scale. Take for example a lack of sleep. Most people know what it's like to not sleep enough: you feel tired. So they assume that true insomnia is like that, only worse. They think there's a seamless transition from "mild tiredness" on the left hand side of the scale to "really bad tiredness" on the right hand side.
BUT. On this scale, at some point, there's a red dotted line. When you cross it, things abruptly get a LOT worse. Also, you get new symptoms that weren't there before.
But people in general don't know that. They still think that "zero hours of sleep during the past week" is only a more tired variation of that one time they pulled an all-nighter to prepare for an exam. And for that reason, they'll chirp: "Sleeplessness? Oh yes, I know all about that! Just put your feet up for about ten minutes and you'll be fine!"
OMG. YES.
So "Fake it till you make it" is my non-traumatized business partner's life advice. Every time he says it I want to hit him. I want to scream at him that he has no idea what it is to be fake all the time. But I don't, because he has no idea, and he is genuinely supportive and marvelous and considerate in the rare times I bring up my symptoms with him. He just can't imagine this world.
The general presumption is that if you pretend to be something long enough, you adopt the habits and mannerisms and, ultimately, do become that thing. I do think it has its place, even for me it helped a little in some important respects. The more valid version was "what would happen if you were to act as if that very negative thing you believe weren't true?" and it's part of CBT. I believe that if I enforce a boundary, I am in actual, physical danger. I believe that because it was adaptive at the time, when I was a kid, because it was more or less true. Now it isn't. How do I unlearn it? By setting up a different belief system, one that I don't actually believe in yet.
What that does is get me over irrational fear. That lets me function. It lets me face every single morning that I have to go to work and say "yes, I am having a panic attack. It is a physical response to a conditioned belief system. I am going to choose to behave as if I believe the same as everyone else - this is not an existential threat to me." I have to say that every morning. The problem is (a) it's still fake and (b) it's still a fight, and (c) for the things I legitimately have reframed with this technique, the problem is that there's nothing to replace the old, problematic beliefs with! I can pretend as if they are untrue (faking it) but then...what's true to replace it? There's a void. And so I feel more fake.
I think Schrodinger's Cat nailed it - there's a point in everything where it shifts from being annoying but fixable to being disordered. Anything that helps annoying but fixable is probably going to be counterproductive and insulting to those who live at the other maladapative end of the spectrum. For those of us who have lived in fakeness all our lives....well...it's just insulting.
Woo - hit a nerve. Thank you for posting about this though!
I think we all understand that a certain amount of platitudes and upbeat truisms figure into getting through polite, non-committal conversation and work situations. But they're not just wholly inadequate when you're really hurting - I agree they literally cause more damage.
I grew up on phrases that were meant to dismiss, solve and (most of all) negate what I was feeling. There was no end to the greeting-card sentiment solutions, and they put an end to any depth or reason. Most of the time I felt I was dancing on broken legs but smiling was mandatory. It was supposed to be my "umbrella". Retch.
To this day, I am repulsed by the kind of cheap sentimentality that ruled my life and still pervades so much of our culture. The thin, cheery life-coach approach may indeed work for and inspire people who have never known the real depths of ongoing depression or trauma, but it's worse than vapid to those who live with terror. However well meant now, I think it actually re-traumatizes by reminding us of how swiftly and superficially our original problems were minimized. And we are just shamed all over again.
Quote from: coda on February 10, 2015, 07:07:53 PM
I think we all understand that a certain amount of platitudes and upbeat truisms figure into getting through polite, non-committal conversation and work situations. But they're not just wholly inadequate when you're really hurting - I agree they literally cause more damage.
I grew up on phrases that were meant to dismiss, solve and (most of all) negate what I was feeling. There was no end to the greeting-card sentiment solutions, and they put an end to any depth or reason. Most of the time I felt I was dancing on broken legs but smiling was mandatory. It was supposed to be my "umbrella". Retch.
To this day, I am repulsed by the kind of cheap sentimentality that ruled my life and still pervades so much of our culture. The thin, cheery life-coach approach may indeed work for and inspire people who have never known the real depths of ongoing depression or trauma, but it's worse than vapid to those who live with terror. However well meant now, I think it actually re-traumatizes by reminding us of how swiftly and superficially our original problems were minimized. And we are just shamed all over again.
Thank you for that, coda. You really do get it. You described exactly the thing I was trying to say, how it feels to have these smug cheerleaders, these absurd "inspirational" posters, these HR mandated feel-good BS propaganda... if we were to open a magic portal into our trauma, where they could see all of it, and the scars it leaves behind... they would probably throw up.
Oh dear, yes. It's one of those things where, afterwards, I think obsessively about what I should have said and what I could have said*... because while it's happening, I'm tongue-tied. Like it's literally taking away my ability to even speak for myself. And maybe there is an element of silencing to this after all. Instead of listening, instead of being respectful enough to assume that we are actually knowledgeable about our own situation, those people simply slap their quick fix-its onto us.
*Only thing I've come up with: "You know, it's admirable how well you're coping with my trauma." So I'm still looking for something more constructive to say.
Quote from: schrödinger's cat on February 11, 2015, 10:30:24 AM
"You know, it's admirable how well you're coping with my trauma."
LOL!!! OMG I love it, I'm going to use that!
Standard advice is just that, standard. It's middle of the road and meant to "fit" everyone in the same way that a "one size fits all" article of clothing is purported to fit. In other words, it doesn't apply to everyone's situation.
Growing up in a C-PTSD-engendering family is like growing up in a distorted kingdom full of funhouse mirrors. In that kingdom, people construct themselves from the outside in, drawing behaviors and beliefs from the messed up environment around us that help us stay alive. When we start to get healthy, we engage in a long process of "moving house" from the distorted kingdom to the new one. We have to bring ourselves over, piece by piece,
Take the term "fake it 'till you make it." In the healthy kingdom, where people construct themselves authentically from the inside out, that term means, "intentionally and thoughtfully use this new skill you're trying to cultivate with all the confidence you can muster until it starts to feel more natural." So someone who is generally really healthy, but is socially awkward or shy in big group settings might "fake" approaching people at a party, making jokes, etc. with a bit more confidence than they actually feel until that behavior starts coming more naturally.
In a distorted kingdom, "fake it till you make it" really means "fake being the pretend person your abusers want you to be in order to survive." There is no opportunity to intentionally select something that you would authentically like to be better at for your own personal growth and then take baby steps to cultivate it. There is only the desperate fight for survival and the willingness to pretend to be anything just to make it another day.
When faced with popular, trite advice; I think you have to ask yourself how that translates into the rules of the distorted kingdom you came from and then try to evaluate the advice through the lens of the healthy kingdom you are moving towards.
Milarepa,
How's the tower building going?
(Buddhist joke)
I must say that I find your appraisal of the 'fake it til you make it' really interesting. The whole thing swings around the word 'fake'. Yes, we all had to fake and duck and dive and pretend...well, I had to. Faking confidence is entirely different to putting in place the causes for confidence. I suppose it's the sheer laziness of the phrase - 'fake it 'til you make it' and that it's probably written by a normal for other normals. We need more than platitudes that scan pleasingly and that work for non-traumatised folk.
Quote from: Milarepa on February 11, 2015, 08:29:10 PM
There is no opportunity to intentionally select something that you would authentically like to be better at for your own personal growth and then take baby steps to cultivate it. There is only the desperate fight for survival and the willingness to pretend to be anything just to make it another day.
Wow.
Not to veer too far from the original, meaningful point of the thread, but this example summarizes so well why cliches can feel duplicitous and manipulative. They were code for pleasing both our unreasonable families, and to a very large (often terrifying) extent, making the "right impression" to others...i.e. the impression they insisted we make. Surviving them and surviving in a world we assumed was just like them had nothing to do with authenticity and everything to do with appearances. I know there was never any plan, never any learning curve, just the threat of humiliation if we didn't conform to Hallmark expectations.
Quote from: flookadelic on February 16, 2015, 08:33:45 PM
How's the tower building going?
(Buddhist joke)
Come again?
I think maybe if you don't suffer with mental health problems, it's really difficult to know and show real empathy and therefore offer some meaningful support. I'm not trying to make excuses for the kind of wounding nonsense those people spout because quite often, they don't want to learn or try and understand what it's really like. And although it hurts to have someone flippantly dismiss the trauma I often find myself experiencing, occasionally, when my compassionate self is in the house, I like to remember how limited and small those people's worlds must be, that their minds are not open enough to listen to others stories and their imaginations are not wide enough to accommodate experiences they have never known.
And I'm probably just as guilty of giving a glib response. I did once respond to someone asking about my welfare with what I thought was a reasoned reply that I had good and bad days. I figured that summed up the situation at the time without providing more information than was required. I was told that everybody had those. What I should have said was "oh really, did you have a nightmare so horrific last night you actually wet the bed?" But I didn't. I can never think quickly enough at the time! So I am also going to try and remember the line used by Schrodinger's cat earlier.
And I totally agree that fake it till you make it is not appropriate in every situation. When I first started giving presentations at work, that advice was perfect. It's totally pants as a value system however or a treatment because I fake my life every day. Every day I get up and go to work and fake my way through numerous interactions, I come home and fake some more interactions with my family, I watch a bit of TV and might fake a bit of crying at that. How can I know what I'm feeling when I've become so detached through faking it to know what the * I'm feeling. But I can tell you what I'm supposed to be feeling if you ask me, because I've learned to fake that. In fact, for a while, I fake so damn good, I forget I'm faking it and convince myself this is real until yet another "crisis" hits and the fake walls crumble and there's nothing real to grab hold of. And that's all tooooo real!
G
Wow, Gashfield, all that you wrote is so profound. The way you put the situation into words is not easy to do.
Faking it does seem appropriate at work. I try to delay my EFs until I can get home or at least in the car. Fortunately my profession is filled with empathetic, sensitive, compassionate people so tears are not that uncommon. People don't need to know that mine are from reminders of past traumas, they will think it was something that happened that day. Or the job pressure. Hugs abound as well. But there is a range of normal for both tears and hugs that one would not want to exceed.
I do admire and send hugs to those OOTSers that are healing while raising children or beginning or ending relationships. I kind of had to wait until I had more time and less drama at home to really work on my self-care. My kids are grown and doing pretty well so now it is me-time.
Quote from: Gashfield on February 21, 2015, 09:03:03 PM
I think maybe if you don't suffer with mental health problems, it's really difficult to know and show real empathy and therefore offer some meaningful support. I'm not trying to make excuses for the kind of wounding nonsense those people spout because quite often, they don't want to learn or try and understand what it's really like. And although it hurts to have someone flippantly dismiss the trauma I often find myself experiencing, occasionally, when my compassionate self is in the house, I like to remember how limited and small those people's worlds must be, that their minds are not open enough to listen to others stories and their imaginations are not wide enough to accommodate experiences they have never known.
When Robin Williams died, I saw so many people on Facebook asking how someone so wonderful and talented and funny could also be so "selfish." I wrote my own status update in response:
QuoteWho among you has been in enough pain that you longed for anything, even death, to make it stop? If you have not, then you are not qualified to comment on Robin Williams and I kindly invite you to shut the f*** up.
I got responses from friends who had survived cancer, were dying of cancer, had been burned over large portions of their bodies, had recovered from massive bacterial infections, or had broken multiple bones on the side of a mountain and waited hours for medical care to arrive. Interestingly, I didn't get a single post from anyone suffering from a mental illness.
So in a follow-up comment, I wrote:
QuoteIt is interesting to note that everyone posting who has responded thus far has suffered a physical illness or injury, something other people could look at and say, "my, that must hurt quite a lot." Now imagine how you would have felt if, on top of all of the pain, you received very little support and understanding from friends, family, and the general public (or even stigma) because your injury was invisible. Now imagine that any support you do receive chafes like sandpaper on wounded skin.
That's when I started to get comments from normies who were kinda sorta getting it. They could imagine the physical agony because everyone has experienced physical pain. They could imagine the isolation because everyone has experiences of being excluded. When they put those things together and amplified them, it was possible to kind of extrapolate how awful it is to have a mental illness.
So, anyway, that's how I help normies "get it."
I know what it is to fake your way through your days, to fake your way through time with your family, to fake your way through sex, through whole relationships, through friendships, through all of it while either numb or in agony. It's like living in * and every day they turn the heat up a little higher.
I'm so grateful that I found the right cocktail of meds, and the right mental health team, and the right people to surround myself with. Without them, my recovery would not be possible. I hope you have similar luck, Gashfield. <3
Last year I struggled with the impostor syndrome big time in my own career, lost confidence and ended up taking a leave of absence. What I learned about myself in that time off through therapy, at OOTF and then OOTS and a change in medication that helped quiet my ICr a lot, was that I am very perfectionistic (surprize!), and I invalidate the skills and knowledge I do have when they are not 100% plus. My perfectionism is fear driven, a relic from the past, a survival strategy for being attacked and made to feel small, humiliated, ashamed of myself as a child when I "slipped up" in one way or another. Fast forward to adulthood "If I don't make any mistakes I will never have to feel those feelings again. Oh I'm feeling afraid, I must hide that, fake it to get through."
So as in your example Gash, when I give a presentation and inside my IC is having a really difficult time in the background with the danger of being exposed and slammed, I take that as a sign that I am just getting through the task by faking it (because I am not 100% confident, I am fearful, etc), rather than looking at it as part of me has trouble and lacks confidence (my IC), while adult me really does have skills that are solid. It's only part of me that is faking it, hiding, but not it's not all of me - a bit of a revelation but it puts a slightly different slant on things that helps.
When I went back to work in the fall last year I was really anxious, but I tried to focus on the authentic parts of me, the professional who really does know her stuff and on trying to soothe my IC and tell her it was OK if she was afraid, that I had this. It helped a lot although I still have to fight the feeling that someone is going to swoop out of the sky and zing me for being less than 100%. My IC is very afraid of that but I keep plugging away at helping her to understand that no-one is ever 100%, it's just not realistic and that the reason she is so afraid is that my FOO used little mistakes to take out their anger and fear on me. If any adult does that to me I can and will stand up for her (myself).
Anyway, I hope I haven't muddied the waters here, but I faked it for so long I didn't realize there actually are very authentic parts of me and that if I can deal with the fear and process the trauma I will be able to be (and more importantly feel) more authentic, more whole and less stuffing down this poor frightened, traumatized IC and hiding her from everyone so that I constantly feel like I am faking it.
I must say that coming here has helped her to pop her head out more often. Oh look there she is now! :wave:
Kizzie, thank you for sharing that. It sounds like you really do understand. I also have that perfectionism tendency, driven by fear.
Even as a toddler, however, my fear had another facet: rage and indignation. I think it has been manifesting throughout adulthood as a deep feeling of defiance, never acknowledged to myself until now. It seems I have been compensating for it with super-nice, super-performing, self-effacing behavior in the workplace, accompanied by passive-aggressive behaviors such as chronic lateness, criticizing other people's work, etc.
I just realized today, that my IC has been so obsessed with the constant danger of being exposed as a fraud, that I have been exhausting 100% of my effort and energies into hitting it out of the park, always trying to climb the ladder two steps at a time, while in the meantime, the REAL problems (that I know of now, there could be more) that needed attention - issues with authority, and coming across insincere - have not even made it onto the radar.
I've suspected for most of my adult life, that I don't have the full set of social skills. Trying to identify exactly where I have been missing the mark is the most difficult undertaking I have ever faced. It would be easier for me to learn rocket science - I'm not even exaggerating. Even now, since I don't know how long this is going to take to fix or learn from scratch, I'm thinking I might be better off pursuing more solitary type of work where I can just be paid for what I produce, and, as much as possible, avoid work that requires interpersonal relationships.
Rage and indignation – definitely! You're so right about hiding that too as it does not go over well in an employment situation does it?! A foot stomping, door slamming IC really does stand out.
I feel a bit of embarrassment thinking back to times when my IC seeped out, took over the steering wheel and let loose :pissed: but at least now I understand what was going on and feel some compassion for her – she really was trying to protect me in the only way she knew how. No-one ever showed us how to deal with anger and frustration in a healthy way, we had to stuff it down so we are stuck at a young age.
I do think Walker is bang on when he suggests we need to defuel the ICr and the OCr by angering, making room and freeing up energy to get that natural development started back up again so that we can express ourselves in an appropriate manner. Easier said than done I know. Some days it does feel like it would be easier to become a rocket scientist! :hug:
I found a text on popular yet backfiring advice. It's from a book I'm reading - The Verbally Abusive Relationship by Patricia Evans. She says that a LOT of popular advice that backfires when it's applied to abusive relationships. You don't even have to have CPTSD or PTSD. Something like "it takes two" is only really applicable to sane, healthy, unabusive relationships. Abusive relationships usually are so skewed, there's little or nothing the victim can do to escape. So "it takes two" then becomes misleading. - If you happen to come across that book, give it a try. The chapter on popular and backfiring advice starts on page 110.
Interesting topic. Yes, we are definitely influenced by our environment, culture, society. I find most popular advice is much too simple and lacks compassion/empathy. Just leave, don't take drugs, etc. etc. Born out of ignorance and denial.
On the other hand it can be encouraging. I like one in Spanish that basically says "I hope these difficulties pass through you like a cold and you feel healthy again soon"..."se te va a pasar como un resfriado." much more succinct quote in Spanish lol It just feels sweet, not minimizing, but reminding me that difficulties do pass. True.
Great example about it takes two. Does not apply with abuse. Sounds like a good book Cat.
C, I love the Spanish saying, it does sound a lot more sincere.
Thank you. Yes the first time I heard that quote from a friend I felt very encouraged, it felt sincere.
I noticed a lot of trite advice is void of empathy...perhaps there's some formula for qualities of the quote that make it match up with recovery and healing or not! haha ;)
Quote from: mourningdove on January 24, 2015, 07:44:22 PM
Hi. I just want to say that I love this thread.
I actually once had a therapist push "fake it 'til you make it" and other trite advice on me as if it were therapy, and when I inevitably failed to fake it until I made it, I was shamed for not having tried hard enough and was eventually fired by the therapist! I had tried to talk about my past with her, and her attitude was like, "That's unfortunate, but we need to talk about the present." :doh:
Sadly, I didn't know any better because I was young and she was my first therapist, so I believed that I was a bad person because I was not able to try hard enough to achieve results, and this intensified all the awful feelings that had led me there in the first place. So I have an enormous chip on my shoulder when it comes to all such facile suggestions.
I couldn't help but to respond to your post mourningdove. I was fired from a doctor once! It sucked. I figure in the end I was probably better off without her, but I didn't take to the rejection very well at the time as it was during a severe down slope.
But your story of that therapist also reminded me of when I took group therapy when I was 18 (after finally escaping home). I was in a very toxic/abusive relationship at the time. I did get out of it eventually, but not because of the therapy. I'm not sure whether anyone has ever done group therapy (well, this was in the 80s mind you) but supposedly it can help because people in the room mirror your relations, which can allow for processing. However, it actually just traumatized. One woman, a replica of my mother, was abusive to me in the group. I ran for the hills!!!
To get back on track. I dislike these cliches. If I hear "let it go" and "move on" one more time ... and yeah, "fake it 'til you make it" is not helpful to someone who has a difficult time being themselves or knowing who they are. I agree with others that these phrasings can not only be very manipulative but dismissive too. Some of the top ones I dislike:
"Time heals all wounds"
"Forgive and forget"
"I love you more than life itself"
"Time heals all wounds" - I'm planning to be petty towards the next person who says that in real life. Either I'm going to say "...all wounds?" and get them into a detailed discussion of physical ailments that are not, in fact, healed with time. (Appendicitis... stab wounds... gangrene...) Sometimes when I'm particularly annoyed at this proverb, I cheer myself up by trying to come up with really unsettling ailments.
The explanation is, my mother loves such proverbs. I've had them flung at me at all hours. She practically used them as a parenting tool. So I've come to think that they're an attempt at control. You just mention that proverb, and it's supposed to carry all that weight of popular opinion. You don't even engage with the other person properly. They seem likely to mention that they're in trouble? "Move on!" - WHAM, end of story. You're simply just trying to make the problem magically go away. You stop the conversation, basically.
So it isn't just the content that's harmful. It's also the way such proverbs and bits of advice are often used. People use them to distance themselves from other people's real situations. They use them to gain a quick and easy sense of control: they want to feel that they've seen through the problem, and they want to feel that they've fixed it. There's also often this hierarchical thing, too - like they think they're your mentor or boss.
I think it's for these reasons I do mostly just act like all is fine and I am "happy". I can't be real with anyone I know without immediately getting one of these quotes, and then I am triggered and feel shame that I "should" be able to apply this quote like everyone else. I can't stand looking at FB for this reason, too.
I have recently said something to a family member, tried to explain how a quote was just a quick answer to a complicated situation, and how much I dislike those kinds of quotes, and they actually got mad and defended their cliche approach and shamed me for being so "negative and not just "sucking it up." I've even been accused of not being spiritual because I questioned a "quote" as valid.
I'm glad others find these things as super-annoying as I do, because I have felt very alone in this. It's hard for me to believe that cliche quote loving people are just fine with tearing down another person while thinking they are so superior (is there a quote for that?)
Maybe William Blake's "to generalize is to be an idiot"?
Or this: "A fool takes no pleasure in understanding, but only in expressing his opinion." And maybe this: "If one gives an answer before he hears, it is his folly and shame." (Both from Proverbs ch 18).
Or William James: "A great many people think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices."
:yeahthat:
Good ones! I think it would be fun to make some "Jack Handey" style scenes with some of these quotes for FB, or maybe even t-shirts. :) Thanks, Cat
Quote from: schrödinger's cat on March 10, 2015, 08:11:34 AM
"Time heals all wounds" - I'm planning to be petty towards the next person who says that in real life. Either I'm going to say "...all wounds?" and get them into a detailed discussion of physical ailments that are not, in fact, healed with time. (Appendicitis... stab wounds... gangrene...) Sometimes when I'm particularly annoyed at this proverb, I cheer myself up by trying to come up with really unsettling ailments.
The explanation is, my mother loves such proverbs. I've had them flung at me at all hours. She practically used them as a parenting tool. So I've come to think that they're an attempt at control. You just mention that proverb, and it's supposed to carry all that weight of popular opinion. You don't even engage with the other person properly. They seem likely to mention that they're in trouble? "Move on!" - WHAM, end of story. You're simply just trying to make the problem magically go away. You stop the conversation, basically.
So it isn't just the content that's harmful. It's also the way such proverbs and bits of advice are often used. People use them to distance themselves from other people's real situations. They use them to gain a quick and easy sense of control: they want to feel that they've seen through the problem, and they want to feel that they've fixed it. There's also often this hierarchical thing, too - like they think they're your mentor or boss.
Wow, cat, BOOM! You hit several nails on the head!! :yes: I never even thought about the controlling aspect of it. That is so true. That must be at least part of my resistance... it's the patronizing, condescending attitude some people are trying to pass off as advice. Or they truly just do not give a sh*t, and want you AND your problems to just disappear.
Time heals all wounds, really? Stephen Hawking? Amputees? Death row inmates? Yea, that's what I thought....
Can we add:
"Lighten up!" and "Life's too short."
As if just hearing those words will cause the trauma to just melt away. :stars:
I agree with the title of this thread. My cptsd ex had a bundle of sayings that she lived by. I realize she it to keep her safe, as if it were an incantation. But, imo, it speaks to her broken understanding of people.
For example: "it's better to feel guilty than resentful". I would love to ask her who told her that, and why, and when. Because now think she actually believed it. But why feel neither? I realize sometimes you have to choose, but always?
"Take care of yourself first." Gave license to the narc part of her that knew little of doing things for others, only for the sake of putting another person first once in awhile.
I think she got them in therapy, or from reading the multitude of self help books.
But was she so broken as a person she needed that sort of black and white advice to get by? To explain how to live?
I wish I could ask her. But one of the posts mentioned that you don't confront the truck that just hit you and to her I was the truck that picked the scab of her pain. So I haven't heard from her since she left and I was the only one who loved her enough to support her as she confronted her demons. Instead she demonized me.
Thank goodness you are all here on this forum and working to understand cptsd. I wish she would be courageous enough to understand this horrible condition that wrecked our lives.
Quote from: lonewolf on March 10, 2015, 01:32:49 AM
I couldn't help but to respond to your post mourningdove. I was fired from a doctor once! It sucked. I figure in the end I was probably better off without her, but I didn't take to the rejection very well at the time as it was during a severe down slope.
But your story of that therapist also reminded me of when I took group therapy when I was 18 (after finally escaping home). I was in a very toxic/abusive relationship at the time. I did get out of it eventually, but not because of the therapy. I'm not sure whether anyone has ever done group therapy (well, this was in the 80s mind you) but supposedly it can help because people in the room mirror your relations, which can allow for processing. However, it actually just traumatized. One woman, a replica of my mother, was abusive to me in the group. I ran for the hills!!!
I'm sorry that happened to you, lonewolf. :( I don't want to go off-topic too much, but I have had several experiences with group therapy and they were all very unhelpful to say the least. Later I heard someone refer to hospital group therapy as "the dogfights," and I just couldn't stop laughing.
Quote from: Whobuddy on March 24, 2015, 09:40:21 PM
As if just hearing those words will cause the trauma to just melt away. :stars:
Exactly. And when it doesn't, they get miffed, like, "Wait a minute, you're not playing by the rules!" :pissed:
Quote from: Bluevermonter on March 24, 2015, 10:08:49 PM
"Take care of yourself first." Gave license to the narc part of her that knew little of doing things for others, only for the sake of putting another person first once in awhile.
Yeah, all these sayings work very well to justify ones own feelings and invalidate those of others.
"Don't worry; be happy." Has anyone added that yet? I find it infuriating.
Oh wow, I had no idea it was that simple! THANK YOU for telling me how to feel!!! /sarcasm
Quote from: schrödinger's cat on February 11, 2015, 10:30:24 AM
Oh dear, yes. It's one of those things where, afterwards, I think obsessively about what I should have said and what I could have said*... because while it's happening, I'm tongue-tied. Like it's literally taking away my ability to even speak for myself. And maybe there is an element of silencing to this after all. Instead of listening, instead of being respectful enough to assume that we are actually knowledgeable about our own situation, those people simply slap their quick fix-its onto us.
*Only thing I've come up with: "You know, it's admirable how well you're coping with my trauma." So I'm still looking for something more constructive to say.
I am way too familiar with that problem. I think it goes right into the very core of C-PTSD. At least it partially does for me. It has a lot to do about independence, believing in yourself, and ... well, a number of things. For me, anyway. I discovered some time ago that I'm opening up too much to people I really don't feel safe with. As an intiutive thing - hoping that I'd connect or would feel safe eventually. Just to discover that... it was wrong to open up that much in the first place, to people I'm not really comfortable with. Suddenly it feels like my personal life is on public display, and some of my friends have strong opinions about what should be done, and what not. It's hard enough having C-PTSD, and in addition you have people with no experience with that sort of mental illness (or injury) giving out advice in all directions. They mean well, of course, in most cases, but it makes it just that much harder to actually feel safe and comfortable (enough) around people. C-PTSD really is counterintuitive sometimes...