My anger is both empowering me and consuming me. I've come forward a lot in recovery and have now a genuine interest in my well being and future. My hatred for my old life and what I've become propels me forward.
I also feel completely alienated from people. I can't trust anyone, I feel bitter and jealous, and I experie difficulty feeling happy for others. At times I wonder if I'm a misanthrope. I get especially jealous whenever I see teenagers and children with clearly loving parents, and I can't help wondering what life would be like had I had such parents.
It's painful to carry such a hatred. I hope it can pass some day.
Quote from: hereforhope on December 14, 2017, 03:49:27 PM
My anger is both empowering me and consuming me. I've come forward a lot in recovery and have now a genuine interest in my well being and future. My hatred for my old life and what I've become propels me forward.
I also feel completely alienated from people. I can't trust anyone, I feel bitter and jealous, and I experie difficulty feeling happy for others. At times I wonder if I'm a misanthrope. I get especially jealous whenever I see teenagers and children with clearly loving parents, and I can't help wondering what life would be like had I had such parents.
It's painful to carry such a hatred. I hope it can pass some day.
I understand what you mean. It was the same for me until I got stuck in dissociation. It's hard, so hard, I know it. I also hope it will all go away some way. Talk about it to your T if haven't done it yet, maybe it will relieve it some way.
Thank you for your reply. I'm considering therapy again though it's hard with the trust issue. I've had some bad therapists, at least one who I think was a narcissist and tried some subtle abuse.
I feel embarrassed by this thread so I think I'll delete it. I'll have it up for a little longer so you can see this reply. I hope you feel better soon. My best wishes.
Quote from: hereforhope on December 14, 2017, 08:21:57 PM
Thank you for your reply. I'm considering therapy again though it's hard with the trust issue. I've had some bad therapists, at least one who I think was a narcissist and tried some subtle abuse.
I feel embarrassed by this thread so I think I'll delete it. I'll have it up for a little longer so you can see this reply. I hope you feel better soon. My best wishes.
I think your post shows a really natural response to trauma, there is nothing to be embarrassed of. I know that our anger may feel embareassing, I used to feel it too.
I had bad therapists too, and I also considered quiting therapy. Now I have a new T that seems nice. There are a lot of Ts, I encourage you to keep looking.
I agree with Blanca.
Oh boy do I know how you feel... it can be all-consuming, like a fire in my body. I hate hating but I don't know how to stop it sometimes.
I hope you don't delete this post, I think it was courageous of you to write it in the first place. It's such a tough topic to admit, to work on.
Especially having met creepy therapists. Your previous t sounded horrific! I've met some in the past, some I'm sure were narcissists and psychopaths, others just blindly cooperated with my abusers... and it left me so distrusting of them all that I never went to therapy. I'm sure there must be good therapists out there, but I was too horrified of the whole profession to go look for them.
I guess it's doubly hard for us, because finding trauma therapists is even more rare. But I hope you'll keep looking. Stay cautious, recognize the signs if you meet another creepy one, but I hope you can try again till you find a good, real therapist.
You're allowed to feel anger, you're allowed to feel hatred. We're human beings, we have our emotions and none of them are bad or evil. They just are what they are. They're part of being us. They come of their own accord, and feeling hatred doesn't make you a bad person, it makes you a person.
Not sure how to deal with it myself yet... the things that help me are distracting myself (but that's not a very good technique because it only works very short term. The second I stop distracting I feel overwhelmed again). One other thing I sometimes find helpful is talking, either mentally or out loud.
For example: I try to give what I'm feeling a name. I try to be as accurate as possible, I might say "I feel hatred. Very intense hatred." I repeat it and give myself permission to feel it, then I try to see what else is there.
Like vulnerability? Fear? Disappointment? Betrayal? Pain? All of the above... maybe... usually what will happen is as I try to be more and more precise I'll also give my feeling more and more labels that are related to feeling so deeply hurt and betrayed, and that seems to give me more power over my anger and hatred.
It loosens their grip on my heart and I can feel them and also feel other things at the same time.
I hope that makes sense. :stars:
:hug:
hereforhope,
I'm really glad you posted because I've been dealing with feelings which we often denounce as "bad" in the past few days too. In my case anger and rage and not really knowing how to deal either. It just helps to read that somebody else is having problems with the type of emotion we're not meant to have or admit to. Our shadows.
But I see if I understand you properly, you mean self-hate? You hate what you've become. Maybe Inner Critic work would help you. You are not a bad person because of feelings you have. Even if ICr tells you otherwise.
I agree with ah's suggestion - that's helpful for me too, give myself permission to feel and then see if there's an additional different feeling. There often is.
Thanks for your responses.
Thank you Ah for validating my previous experience in therapy. That tip about figuring out ones emotions seem very valuable, I'll remember it for when I journal.
I'll try to remember to judge myself less for my emotions. I remember Pete Walker reminding us that it can give the Critic plenty of fodder. Jealousy is especially a shameful emotion to me. I'll try to accept my emotions and understand it logically where it comes from.
About hating myself:
I've lived with my mother my entire life, save one year. I've never had a real job, because of anxiety. I think my mother enjoys me being helpless like this. I'm 27 now and completely dependant financially on her. It's as clear as the sky that I'm just pathetic. Whenever I've shared about my life with therapist and doctors I always see some surprise, then feel they don't respect me much- completely understandable.
I hate everything about what I've become. I remind myself that this isn't the real me however, that I'm not hating my real self, my core self, that's hopefully my potential in life.
Quote from: hereforhope on December 14, 2017, 11:18:56 PM
I'll try to remember to judge myself less for my emotions. .. .....I'll try to accept my emotions and understand it logically where it comes from.
:cheer: Good going!
Quote from: hereforhope on December 14, 2017, 11:18:56 PM
About hating myself:
I've lived with my mother my entire life, save one year. I've never had a real job, because of anxiety. .. I'm 27 now and completely dependant financially on her. It's as clear as the sky that I'm just pathetic.
Can I tell you that I really don't think you're pathetic? I'm actually about 20 years older than you and have hardly had a real job. 3 years I think. That's a drop in the bucket at my age. I certainly do not stand on my own feet financially. I'm not pathetic, I have an injury to my brain called CPTSD, and so do you. There's a reason why we can't get a real job.
But I also want to accept you the way you are, with your self-hate. I have got a lot of that too, and there's a reason for that as well, for both of us I presume. :hug:
:yeahthat:
Quote from: hereforhope on December 14, 2017, 11:18:56 PM
It's as clear as the sky that I'm just pathetic.
Not to me, sorry... :hug: the way I see it, it's clear as they sky that you're in pain. Invisible pain that society doesn't know enough about.
I can tell you what it's like for me, well, I have an invisible physical disability as well as c-ptsd, I'm severely disabled physically but I don't look it, so people don't understand it. They don't have a lot of compassion for me. They minimize my pain and disability. They can't really see things that are a bit out of the ordinary.
People often say I'm pathetic, a liar, a fraud, 'etc... spoiled, lazy, dependent, crazy... you name it. But I actually have a disability, whether they see it or not I can't make my disability go away any more than they can make their pains and aches vanish.
And c-ptsd is a hidden pain too. On the outside we seem in one piece, maybe a bit anxious or fearful or forgetful or distant, but people can't see the extent of the damage that was done to our brain and our heart just by looking at us.
You have every right to be in pain and to struggle. It doesn't make you pathetic, it makes you human. It makes you normal, it means your brain is responding to painful experiences and needs help. It makes you worthy of gentleness and understanding, not disrespect.
Quote from: hereforhope on December 14, 2017, 11:18:56 PM
Whenever I've shared about my life with therapist and doctors I always see some surprise, then feel they don't respect me much- completely understandable.
I'm sorry but... I don't respect your therapists and doctors very much! :bigwink: :no:
I think that's just wrong on so many levels.
But it happens to me too. I wish therapists and doctors knew more than the general public about c-ptsd but most don't.
Quote from: hereforhope on December 14, 2017, 11:18:56 PM
I hate everything about what I've become. I remind myself that this isn't the real me however, that I'm not hating my real self, my core self, that's hopefully my potential in life.
I know what that's like. I'm so sorry you know that feeling too. I feel this way when my ICr wins, which is admittedly 99.9999% of the time. But just calling it ICr helps, it distances it a bit from "the real me". Helps me see it like a parasite, something external that isn't me, but hurts me.
Quote from: hereforhope on December 14, 2017, 11:18:56 PM
Jealousy is especially a shameful emotion to me.
Me too... I think it makes a lot of sense. We feel our life is a disappointment, then look around at others are wish we had what they have. It's very human. Or so I try to tell myself when jealousy gets too strong in my head.
You're not alone. I wish I could take this pain away from you. It's real pain, whether others acknowledge it or not you and I know it.
Thank you all for your compassionate responses, it's very appreciated.
Blueberry, I want to make it clear that I never do and never would think about others in such a way. It's just completely different when it's myself. I'm sure you understand.
Ah, I'm sorry for the way you've been treated. It's bad enough that everyday people are judging and ignorant, but that health "professionals" also do it is so offensive. It really sucks. I've given up having expectations in them a long time ago. They're typically not one bit less fallible to partake in the usual stigmatised attitudes themselves. Either it's me who's so repulsive that not even trained professionals can find any respect in themselves for me, or it's a far bigger problem with either society or our humanity. I personally think a lot of the stigma is just simply how humanity is, sadly. People are probably wired by evolution to to some extent reject people we perceived as "weak" (even if they're actually mental tougher).
I think I've pretty much closed off myself to most people. Maybe I'm naive but after reading answers to questions, I see it's possible I fall somewhere on the sociopathic spectrum. I can't trust anyone, I think I can choose to have empathy or not, and I'm not very interested at all in making friends, or care much about being polite. I honestly like grind detached like this, for at least I know there's something that protects me. I highly disagree with Pete Walker that most people are friendly and safe. I can however understand why he'd argue to think like that, it's important to lessen the outer critic as well.
Let me say however that I care for you here, especially after having learned a little about your own lives.
And yes, I definitely need to work on my inner critic and bring gentle with myself. Thanks for reminding me, and thanks once again for your kind responses. It really helpful and meaningful.
Quote from: hereforhope on December 17, 2017, 06:46:39 PM
People are probably wired by evolution to to some extent reject people we perceived as "weak" (even if they're actually mental tougher).
I don't think it is a "human thing", more like a "patriarchal thing", since there are matriarchies, like the mosuo, the minangkabau or the bijagos where they have a more "maternal" approach to weakness.
Quote from: hereforhope on December 17, 2017, 06:46:39 PM
Blueberry, I want to make it clear that I never do and never would think about others in such a way. It's just completely different when it's myself. I'm sure you understand.
Yes, I do understand hereforhope. I don't think you mean I might be pathetic. I just mean I have things in common with you too, like not being financially dependent and hardly working, but that doesn't make me pathetic. So it doesn't make you pathetic either. I also criticise myself and otherwise treat myself badly far more than other people, so I do understand that!
Quote from: BlancaLap on December 17, 2017, 07:32:17 PM
I don't think it is a "human thing", more like a "patriarchal thing", since there are matriarchies, like the mosuo, the minangkabau or the bijagos where they have a more "maternal" approach to weakness.
Could be. I guess we've moved into philosophy here so any discussion would be our own views and thoughts on things, rather than anything we can prove. I just don't like most humans very much, it's as simple as that.
I'm with hereforhope. Humans in general, I do not like. I love my family of course and other certain individuals, and the people here are an exception to my general dislike because of our vulnerability and honesty.
I disagree with you, but I still respect your views hereforhope.
It's pretty darn tough to show kindness to others when you've been continually shown disrespect and harm over and over. I've felt that hatred and anger at people as well — a lot of us do. We're not saints after all, we're human. And the kind of ability to show kindness to those you hate would take extraordinary effort from anyone.
You're not sociopathic, it seems. You seem to show regret or guilt over this. While some sociopaths have their own moral code (though divorced from emotion), they won't really be able to feel this well. At the very least, you seem scared, and it seems from the research I've found if my memory serves me right, sociopaths don't really understand fear in themselves and others.
Take care.
If information on my own opinions about human nature will not help you, feel free not to read this. That includes other readers than hereforhope.,
(You may ask about it if you want as there are many resources that show otherwise — such as Hans Rosling's statistics in his site Gapminderof how the world is terrible, yes, but better and slowly improving compared to the far worse off past or how from Radiolab's podcast, humans are yes terrible in many ways, but more cooperative than many more murderous omnivores in nature and seem to be evolving in that direction.)
Take care.
Hate is a part of disgust which is a correct response to having our values violated. I feel/struggle with hate every day. I know I "shouldn't" feel it but I also know there is no "should" when it comes to emotions.
I found DBT the best way to deal with hate, to understand where it comes from, what its purpose is and what you can do if you don't want to feel it anymore. DBT teaches something called "opposite action", in this case if you don't want to feel hate anymore you might move towards the thing that disgusts you.
You can also work on accepting that you feel hate and let it go. I like that approach. Of course that makes it hard to talk about it, except for places like this. Most people are quick to jump on hate and say its wrong, you shouldn't feel it, so on and so forth. Those people... enough said, are part of the problem, not the solution.
*** TW Suicide *** TW bullying
I don't think I'm sociopathic anymore. More numbed out and full of hate, both for myself, others and life itself.
I can't see how I can ever trust people. There's a few things I read that always comes to mind, like how common suicide goading is in public. A few years ago somewhere in England a thousand people chanted in unison to make someone jump, and he did. I suppose they were just normal people pulled into the atmosphere. I've read about and seen myself teachers and adults become annoyed and bully kids and teens with aspergers. It's very common it seems. I've read confessions online from parents admitting being unable to love their challenged kids. I've read countless examples of therapists being annoyed by their troubled clients.
I see example after example that humans are basically programmed to feel repulsed by the "unfit" people, and that "love" is mostly something meant to feel the more "fit" a person is, whether it's in a romantic or family setting. I believe bullying is a tool of evolution. I don't know if I'm right or wrong though.
I don't think I can do therapy again, because I think people can feel tempted to abuse someone "unfit". It's so obvious that this is a part of the human psyche.
I wish I didn't think like this because now life feels just empty. I can't imagine getting enjoyment out of people. I really long for friendships and connection, but I feel like all that I wish for doesn't exist, it's just an idyllic fantasy. Maybe I'll have to accept that I simply hate people.
I wish I didn't have needs. I wish I was a psychopath who didn't need people. I read on Quora about "good" psychopaths with regular lives and wish I was like them and didn't need people. Or at least not get so upset how pathetically cruel normal behavior seems to be. I wish I was asexual. In my head sexuality and "love" doesn't really compute how it's anything good. It's funny how being objectified is traumatizing to people, when research shows that attraction and romance is based 70-80 percent on appearance. Romantic love simply doesn't exist.
No, what I wish is that I wasn't born. I hate being alive. My existence is just misery.
Quote from: hereforhope on December 20, 2017, 06:31:26 PM
*** TW Suicide *** TW bullying
I don't think I'm sociopathic anymore. More numbed out and full of hate, both for myself, others and life itself.
I can't see how I can ever trust people. There's a few things I read that always comes to mind, like how common suicide goading is in public. A few years ago somewhere in England a thousand people chanted in unison to make someone jump, and he did. I suppose they were just normal people pulled into the atmosphere. I've read about and seen myself teachers and adults become annoyed and bully kids and teens with aspergers. It's very common it seems. I've read confessions online from parents admitting being unable to love their challenged kids. I've read countless examples of therapists being annoyed by their troubled clients.
I see example after example that humans are basically programmed to feel repulsed by the "unfit" people, and that "love" is mostly something meant to feel the more "fit" a person is, whether it's in a romantic or family setting. I believe bullying is a tool of evolution. I don't know if I'm right or wrong though.
I don't think I can do therapy again, because I think people can feel tempted to abuse someone "unfit". It's so obvious that this is a part of the human psyche.
I wish I didn't think like this because now life feels just empty. I can't imagine getting enjoyment out of people. I really long for friendships and connection, but I feel like all that I wish for doesn't exist, it's just an idyllic fantasy. Maybe I'll have to accept that I simply hate people.
I wish I didn't have needs. I wish I was a psychopath who didn't need people. I read on Quora about "good" psychopaths with regular lives and wish I was like them and didn't need people. Or at least not get so upset how pathetically cruel normal behavior seems to be. I wish I was asexual. In my head sexuality and "love" doesn't really compute how it's anything good. It's funny how being objectified is traumatizing to people, when research shows that attraction and romance is based 70-80 percent on appearance. Romantic love simply doesn't exist.
No, what I wish is that I wasn't born. I hate being alive. My existence is just misery.
When I was in school I convinced myself that there was a social pyramid and that the "cool" kids where up and the "wallflowers" down. I used to think people liked the cool kids because they were cool, and that the people below wanted to be with the people above them, but not with the people below, and because they didn't want to be with them they bullied them. I used to think it was that way (of course now I know it's not), but imagine for a second it REALLY is that way. I used to think that if I reached the top I would be finally safe, and I really felt I reached the top one day. How I got there? Well, I learned how to "behave". In other words, I learned to fake. Of course it is something nobody wants to do, but I felt like I had no other choice. I really thought I was cool when I felt I reached the top. That's the first time I felt safety in my life, of course there were other places where I didn't feel the same way... But the thing is that feeling safe was what made me get out of dissociation. The idea pf the pyramid is a really simplistic way to explain what happens, but I want you to think about it, about the pyramid. Think about it as it is real, and try to reach the top. Sometimes we focus on the "getting out of dissociation" and we lost what will really get us out: safety. People seem scary and uncontrollable, and they really are uncontrollable, because they are humans, but don't focus on that. Imagine you can actually predict how they will react. Try to act cool... imagine you are cool... imagine you are on the top... imagine people will respect you no matter what because of that...
I don't know what else to say. I hope it helps.
Quote from: hereforhope on December 20, 2017, 06:31:26 PM
I don't think I'm sociopathic anymore. More numbed out and full of hate, both for myself, others and life itself.
What you wrote here is so honest... that I want to try to be the same, and to add that I feel the same way.
99% of the time I feel numbed out both for myself, others and life itself.
I feel as though I exist because I'm here, that this isn't a life. I'm not alive, I don't feel alive.
From the things you write I don't get the sense you're sociopathic at all either. The feeling I get from your words is despair.
I feel it too, on a regular basis, and it's soul crunching.
I think it makes numbness so much easier and less difficult than having positive emotions, then feeling them crushed down by despair again.
I can't forgive therapists who treated you in such a way that left you in such pain, I find that just unforgivable.
It's beyond betrayal. I can't quite see it as a generic human trait, it's personal, someone did that to you and it leaves me helpless with anger for you.
Personally, I have philosophic problems with kindness and anger that I've been trying to chew on lately. (but I'm digressing...) I believe in the importance of kindness, its necessity. I read research about its medical benefits. It's social importance. All of that. But I feel none of it in my life. I feel like I'm thinking about the dark side of the moon.
I sometimes wonder if others feel more kindness toward them, maybe they don't even ask themselves this question because they just know they're entitled to it, as deeply as you and I feel the opposite.
I have no way of knowing, it's so subjective. But to me it feels like a barren land.
To me it's one of the most horrifying results of trauma. It broke my heart, that's been the worst damage that a lifetime of abuse has left me with. Breaking my body, beh, it's painful, it's horrible, but this feels worse.
The examples you brought... they're awful. They make me physically sick. We're not a very gentle species, huh?
I have to put up with stigma and cruelty because I'm physically disabled, and so much victim blaming. It's my daily existence, so I can strongly relate.
But there's one thing I disagree with you about: having experienced all that cruelty and indifference, I refuse to be that stupid myself. I won't cause such pain to other people.
I may be numb and hopeless but I refuse to be cruel to anyone else. I'm an idiot, I make huge mistakes, but even if I'm numbed out of my mind cruelty disgusts me so much I just keep turning in the other direction, even though I have no idea where that is.
Bullying could be a tool of evolution but as a weak person I doubt it because I'm weak enough as it is. I don't need bullying to fail to survive :blink:
I "survived" this long thanks to modern laws that aren't good, but they do offer me some protection from bullying and cruelty due to weakness. Ironic, because people devised them.
And we all have two brains - right? The older emotional brain that wants to dominate others to survive, and the younger logical brain that wants to survive through cooperation and connection.
So I guess you could argue that values and the idea of natural rights and gentleness are a tool of evolution too, if they're beneficial and they originated in our brain? Just saying :whistling:
Personally, I don't think people are programmed by nature to be ignorant. I want to give them full credit for their "lovely" behavior:
they do that all by themselves. I'd say: let's give their big brains credit and say out loud that other animals don't usually get the choice to be gentle, but we do and we keep messing it up and making the wrong choice over and over again. We're a pretty ugly species, even though we have potential to be less ugly. Not that we often use it or anything :blink:
Quote from: hereforhope on December 20, 2017, 06:31:26 PM
I don't think I can do therapy again, because I think people can feel tempted to abuse someone "unfit". It's so obvious that this is a part of the human psyche.
Me neither, I can't afford it and I also feel hopeless about people.
But I want to add that when I see weakness in someone it makes me more gentle and cautious. I can't fathom wanting to do anything like that, if I met you IRL I'd feel closer to you if I saw you were in pain. I'd move more carefully, not less carefully.
The people who treated you this way, who took advantage of your human vulnerability in order to feel more in control... I'm
so angry about that.
Quote from: hereforhope on December 20, 2017, 06:31:26 PM
I wish I didn't think like this because now life feels just empty. I can't imagine getting enjoyment out of people. I really long for friendships and connection, but I feel like all that I wish for doesn't exist, it's just an idyllic fantasy. Maybe I'll have to accept that I simply hate people.
If your feelings are in any way similar to mine on this topic then... what I feel is I may have to accept that I simply can't trust people, I wish I could, I want to be able to trust, I need to, but people in my mind are dangerous. They're predators. All the idiots I've met have been upgraded and turned into abusers in my mind. I've been hurt and I keep being hurt too deeply to see any hope.
I think it speaks volumes about how cruelly we were both hurt.
I forgot my existence was misery when I just read your post, I was so drawn to your words and the feelings you describe that you gave me temporary relief, I'm grateful for that. Silly, I guess.
:hug:
You have every right to be furious at people and their stupidity and blindness. I'd be surprised if you weren't. I wish I could take this cruel pain from you, from the bottom of my hopeless bleak numb oh-my-do-I-understand-how-you-feel heart.
Hey, hereforhope.
I don't think I can change your mind about the entire human race in general, but I can show you that there are people who care. Not everyone does. I know. I went through most of my life not trusting a single person with my inner emotional problems and well, considering I'm one of those aspies you talked about who got bullied.
But somewhere out there, there are people who care. We might disagree on how much those people are there in the population, but they are there, whether there are rare or common. People like us at OOTS at the very least.
It is the bad in the world that's most visible. The greedy and the powerful are more likely to voice for attention and it's the shocking things people most remember. But it's the people who do the most good are often the ones who don't call attention to themselves, but they exist.
If every single human being were cruel, we wouldn't have survived as a species for this long. Do you understand why human beings are separated from animals? Not because they're intelligent. If you put one human being in an island, even if they're the smartest in the world, they wouldn't survive.
What allowed us to build towering buildings, advance technology to allow us to communicate with people around the world, inspire and touch others with culture and literature, create a more effieicnt way of farming to feed more people, allow athletes a way to hone their bodies and talents for better health, cure and treat millions and billions of people with medical advancements and so on?
It was not us fighting or hurting each other. It was us cooperating together. Working together in ways other animals could not— especially with language. If you put apes who don't know each other in an airplane, they'd rampage at each other. Put human beings in a plane and most of them would sit down calmly in their seats. And if you look around, there are signs of it everywhere.
You always seem to look for science that comfirms your views without looking at the other side. Just a suggestion — but you can study the evolution, psychology and neuroscience of kindness, cooperation and love. True science doesn't make assumptions in one side or another. You've seen 80% is based on appearance for love for example, but have you looked at the 20%?
The world isn't black or white. It's not all bad, and it's not all good.
To understand, to heal and to change, you have to know both. The only reason there is bad in the world because we have the good to compare it to.
Take care. I wish you the best.
Thanks for the answers. I've read them carefully.
Ah, I appreciate your view of personal responsibility and choice. I realise I've seen people as one big collective where everyone is similar. And also that no one can be blamed for their behavior because we're controlled by instincts. So if I'm abused, I wasn't abused by a person but by humanity, because their instincts told them to and it's my fault since I'm the abnormal one. This thinking leads to hating everyone no matter what they do. If someone's kind, it's just their reaction and instincts to something. If someone's s cruel it's the same, and everyone fluctuates between the two extremes. This makes me think abuse is natural and if it happens I probably deserved it, unless it's clear the person who abused me is sick.
As I said before, normal and sane people seems to be completely capable of committing severe abuse, like yelling at someone to jump and stand and watch the whole time.
I might very well have deserved some of my abuse as a kid because I was simply unsatisfactory in some way. I think it's likely that even if I grew up with other parents as the same person, I still wouldn't be like much. When I look at pictures of myself as a kid I see a weakling. No man would want such a weak looking boy as his son.
I don't think I can read any self help-stuff anymore and believe any of that. Its view on humanity is so positive it seems like delusional nonsense to me.
I'm sorry that I can't be more positive. I just can't see why humanity isn't just as much dog-eat-dog as the rest of the animal world.
Yes, humanity is capable of extraordinary kindness and sacrifice. But so is the mother eagle to her chick, but it still doesn't change the fact that she earlier let her smaller chick starve to death. That seems to be the nature in humanity too, but of course no one would admit it. It's because I can't imagine liking humans ever again I'm in despair. I wish I wasn't born I to this worthless world.
Quote from: hereforhope on December 22, 2017, 08:15:17 PM
Thanks for the answers. I've read them carefully.
Ah, I appreciate your view of personal responsibility and choice. I realise I've seen people as one big collective where everyone is similar. And also that no one can be blamed for their behavior because we're controlled by instincts. So if I'm abused, I wasn't abused by a person but by humanity, because their instincts told them to and it's my fault since I'm the abnormal one. This thinking leads to hating everyone no matter what they do. If someone's kind, it's just their reaction and instincts to something. If someone's s cruel it's the same, and everyone fluctuates between the two extremes. This makes me think abuse is natural and if it happens I probably deserved it, unless it's clear the person who abused me is sick.
As I said before, normal and sane people seems to be completely capable of committing severe abuse, like yelling at someone to jump and stand and watch the whole time.
I might very well have deserved some of my abuse as a kid because I was simply unsatisfactory in some way. I think it's likely that even if I grew up with other parents as the same person, I still wouldn't be like much. When I look at pictures of myself as a kid I see a weakling. No man would want such a weak looking boy as his son.
I don't think I can read any self help-stuff anymore and believe any of that. Its view on humanity is so positive it seems like delusional nonsense to me.
I'm sorry that I can't be more positive. I just can't see why humanity isn't just as much dog-eat-dog as the rest of the animal world.
Yes, humanity is capable of extraordinary kindness and sacrifice. But so is the mother eagle to her chick, but it still doesn't change the fact that she earlier let her smaller chick starve to death. That seems to be the nature in humanity too, but of course no one would admit it. It's because I can't imagine liking humans ever again I'm in despair. I wish I wasn't born I to this worthless world.
Maybe your feeling of hopelessness comes from the feeling of danger in the present. Maybe you still feel like people are dangerous and that you are in danger in the present.
You know, I feel no hope lately, well my "life" has always been harsh but it's especially harsh right now. I don't know why I was optimistic enough in the first place to feel hopeless at this point :doh: but here I am, dealing with the question of hope.
What you feel may be totally different from me, so this is just my personal experience, highly subjective. -----
I notice I have a very strong need to make sense of what's happening to me. I deeply want it to make sense, I need it so I can keep on living. But in looking for logic in madness I'm just like a shiny happy optimistic self help book (they give me hives too).
I keep trying to see a pattern in my life, adding up all that I know about it to try to find it. I keep catching my mind saying "Aha! So if that happened then this would mean that... and then... eureka! It's impersonal. It's perfectly logical, that's the way it should be. It's how it would have been no matter what. It's just the way it is."
I give up indignation and get the calm that logic can give, or just go to the other extreme and feel furious beyond words, but in both cases I just imagine patterns where there are none is what I'm beginning to think.
There isn't any logic or sense in evil, stupidity or in mob mentality. There's no sense to abuse.
I wonder: whose voice is it that you're hearing in your mind? Who is it who's telling you that you're the chick that didn't deserve to live? And that abuse is normal, that it's just humanity being led by its instinctual nose because we weak ones deserve everything we're getting?
Because to me that's an abusive voice, pure and simple. Not average, but far worse.
The sad fact is you and I have been treated below par, not just badly but abominably. Not all of humanity treats its young (who are naturally pretty weak to begin with, methinks) or its neighbors as badly as we were treated, and the consequences are anger, hatred, self hatred, unbelievable pain, distrust.
In my experience, anger makes a lot of sense because it gives you your strength back. I feel alive again, I feel I'm in control. But I'm not. I'm still abused and from your anger I get the sense that you are, too. And I see your point about how deeply we're all led by the nose by our instincts, but I think my abusers and your abusers are absolutely to be held responsible for their behavior. In totally stopping all contact with most of my abusers I was refusing to let them get away with it anymore.
Realistically I wasn't unsatisfactory as a kid. I was just a kid. Small and weak like all kids, but also a potential source of enjoyment, talented and cute with blond curls 'etc 'etc... which changed nothing, I was still abused from day one.
All the logical reasons to not be abusive were there, but I was still abused because abuse has no logic, there's no sense to it.
I don't see how I could have deserved it and I'm not sure I can believe you did either. That simplifies abuse, and abuse doesn't deserve such explaining from us.
I can't bring myself to see you as flawed and undeserving to be cared for. What I see in your words, the sense I get is of anger and disgust that are so justified.
I'd readily agree with you people are... well... I'll be very polite and say they're... not satisfactory. The way I see it, in my own despair - and I feel almost absolute despair lately - there's someone or quite a few someones who are telling you lies about yourself and about your place in the world. Be what we are, you have a place here. We both do. Believing that we don't is, in my mind, a horrible lie. It's not natural (even though I feel the same about myself, my self hatred tells me I shouldn't live every day), it's the opposite.
I know this only by conjecture. I don't know what kindness feels like IRL, but I see its effects on others so I know it exists. I see how people walk around in the world knowing they belong in it, never feeling like you or me. Even weak people feels they belong. I have a severe physical disability, I sometimes talk to disabled people when we fight for some social cause or go against some injustice or what have you, and most of them have a strong sense of self. They know their own worth in a way you and I can't imagine. So it isn't weakness related. It's abuse related.
Quote from: ah on December 22, 2017, 10:30:40 PM
You know, I feel no hope lately, well my "life" has always been harsh but it's especially harsh right now. I don't know why I was optimistic enough in the first place to feel hopeless at this point :doh: but here I am, dealing with the question of hope.
What you feel may be totally different from me, so this is just my personal experience, highly subjective. -----
I notice I have a very strong need to make sense of what's happening to me. I deeply want it to make sense, I need it so I can keep on living. But in looking for logic in madness I'm just like a shiny happy optimistic self help book (they give me hives too).
I keep trying to see a pattern in my life, adding up all that I know about it to try to find it. I keep catching my mind saying "Aha! So if that happened then this would mean that... and then... eureka! It's impersonal. It's perfectly logical, that's the way it should be. It's how it would have been no matter what. It's just the way it is."
I give up indignation and get the calm that logic can give, or just go to the other extreme and feel furious beyond words, but in both cases I just imagine patterns where there are none is what I'm beginning to think.
There isn't any logic or sense in evil, stupidity or in mob mentality. There's no sense to abuse.
I wonder: whose voice is it that you're hearing in your mind? Who is it who's telling you that you're the chick that didn't deserve to live? And that abuse is normal, that it's just humanity being led by its instinctual nose because we weak ones deserve everything we're getting?
Because to me that's an abusive voice, pure and simple. Not average, but far worse.
The sad fact is you and I have been treated below par, not just badly but abominably. Not all of humanity treats its young (who are naturally pretty weak to begin with, methinks) or its neighbors as badly as we were treated, and the consequences are anger, hatred, self hatred, unbelievable pain, distrust.
In my experience, anger makes a lot of sense because it gives you your strength back. I feel alive again, I feel I'm in control. But I'm not. I'm still abused and from your anger I get the sense that you are, too. And I see your point about how deeply we're all led by the nose by our instincts, but I think my abusers and your abusers are absolutely to be held responsible for their behavior. In totally stopping all contact with most of my abusers I was refusing to let them get away with it anymore.
Realistically I wasn't unsatisfactory as a kid. I was just a kid. Small and weak like all kids, but also a potential source of enjoyment, talented and cute with blond curls 'etc 'etc... which changed nothing, I was still abused from day one.
All the logical reasons to not be abusive were there, but I was still abused because abuse has no logic, there's no sense to it.
I don't see how I could have deserved it and I'm not sure I can believe you did either. That simplifies abuse, and abuse doesn't deserve such explaining from us.
I can't bring myself to see you as flawed and undeserving to be cared for. What I see in your words, the sense I get is of anger and disgust that are so justified.
I'd readily agree with you people are... well... I'll be very polite and say they're... not satisfactory. The way I see it, in my own despair - and I feel almost absolute despair lately - there's someone or quite a few someones who are telling you lies about yourself and about your place in the world. Be what we are, you have a place here. We both do. Believing that we don't is, in my mind, a horrible lie. It's not natural (even though I feel the same about myself, my self hatred tells me I shouldn't live every day), it's the opposite.
I know this only by conjecture. I don't know what kindness feels like IRL, but I see its effects on others so I know it exists. I see how people walk around in the world knowing they belong in it, never feeling like you or me. Even weak people feels they belong. I have a severe physical disability, I sometimes talk to disabled people when we fight for some social cause or go against some injustice or what have you, and most of them have a strong sense of self. They know their own worth in a way you and I can't imagine. So it isn't weakness related. It's abuse related.
Agree and relate. Agree that abuse doens't have meaning. Relate that we lost the meaning of things so we "invent" them, because we can't live in a world where we don't know what's going on or why it is happening what is happening. I used to really see what's going on, but that's when I was able to get out of dissociation. It all made sense back then...
You have no need to apologize for not being positive or not liking the self help industry. When people think they can be happy just by forcing joy and happiness in, they're in the wrong. The world is not all rainbows and sunshine — and I know the constant emotional breakdowns and hopelessness I've had showed me at a young age.
Happiness comes from deeply accepting emotions — bad or good. Suppressing the negative just makes it build up rather than it be let go — grieving out feelings is akin to your body needing to excrete toxins in the toilet. I'm sorry if I come off that way — I don't want to hurt you, and if I do, please inform me.
The thing about changing emotions — this is just a suggestion — that for many people personal experience and detail seems more emotionally convincing than just "reading"things, like self help. For example, you can read the statistics and numbers of how many is suffering in the world. But it won't emotionally pull you as visiting something like — an orphanage or a hospital room with terminal ill patients. And by talking to us — meeting first hand people who care, you're doing something about your problem.
When you're a baby or kid, you're still learning. You couldn't have possibly known what to do in this world. You couldn't have possibly known how to be everything your abusers must have demanded on you off. And for your abusers to force ideas like this to you is cruel and disgusting.
The thing about blaming one person or another, yourself or others, is that it's too much of a simplification. There's not one single cause to our actions, but many. We and the people who affect us are affected by the course of history hundreds and thousands of years ago, by the influence of society, our education systems, our workplace, our peers, our books and movies, our geography, our weather, our pets, our technology and so many other things.
It was not you who caused everything. It was not your fault. You were not wrong.
It was the world and the universe, affecting and connecting each other . . . distrubuting the blame. It's not you. It's not them. It's something bigger.
Thanks for the responses, it's very appreciated.
Ah, I'm very grateful for your efforts in convincing me of a more positive perspective and being believable at that. It's obvious that pessimism is controlling my thinking. I will think of all these feelings and thoughts as my "inner critic" attacking me from now on.
Thanks for reminding me that I do feel righteous anger and disgust. I remember the quote in "Surviving to Thriving": self-hate is blame directed at the self. All this anger I feel is actually about me being mistreated and some part of me knows that I wasn't treated the way I deserved. I will do my best to remind myself of this.
It's hard to control myself these days. I'm very impulsive because of symptoms of what's probably quite severe depersonalisation, shutting down the frontal cortex functions, making me impulsive, foggy, have zero short term memory, etc. I'm ashamed of ranting like this on here, but I really appreciate all the helpful, wise, and amazingly kind answers that I did get, and I got to learn a little about your lives and struggles to, and that made me feel a little bit closer to you.
Even though I mostly forgot about it while being upset, a while back I learned some extremely fascinating things about the illusive world of psychic phenomena research, which convinced me that there is indeed evidence if what can be called a "spiritual" side of reality. To some his might sound like woo-woo but I can post a few links sometime if anyone wants to see for themselves. I think it's a good interest to have when having depression.
One thing that's seems relevant for us is that one's thoughts seems to have a small effect on reality, so positive thinking might make more sense that one would believe.
Anyway, thanks for caring about me. Everyone here is so kind and generous. I hope you had a good holiday and could spent it with your loved ones. Take care.
Quote from: hereforhope on December 25, 2017, 02:06:08 PM
Thanks for reminding me that I do feel righteous anger and disgust. I remember the quote in "Surviving to Thriving": self-hate is blame directed at the self. All this anger I feel is actually about me being mistreated and some part of me knows that I wasn't treated the way I deserved. I will do my best to remind myself of this.
You know, I notice I feel so horrible when I let myself feel righteous anger at the things that were and are being done to hurt me. I guess it's because I'm never allowed to feel anger toward my abusers. Even worse, as a child I was taunted and abused if I was angry, my anger was used against me. So now as an adult, I guess when I feel angry I'm instantly overcome by guilt and then my self hatred takes over and things escalate till I run out of steam.
I have no solutions or wise ideas how to overcome this, but I know how it feels... it can be terrible. It's like a battle being fought inside you.
We have every right to our emotions, unpleasant and pleasant ones are both ours and feeling disgusted when you think of abuse or see abuse, that's the most normal and humane response I can imagine. To me it shows you're very human, in the best way possible. If you had watched random senseless acts of injustice on youtube and said "Meh... who cares? Not me." I'd be worried about you. But anger and disgust when you see pain being inflicted? I think your heart is in the right place.
Quote from: hereforhope on December 25, 2017, 02:06:08 PM
Even though I mostly forgot about it while being upset, a while back I learned some extremely fascinating things about the illusive world of psychic phenomena research, which convinced me that there is indeed evidence if what can be called a "spiritual" side of reality. To some his might sound like woo-woo but I can post a few links sometime if anyone wants to see for themselves. I think it's a good interest to have when having depression.
Yes please! I'd like to read it.
I agree with you, and it's this side of the psyche that's been the only good thing in my life. It's kept me sane this long despite life long pain, so I respect it, I use it. I don't know what to call it. I have a hard time with the word "spiritual" too, it's too optimistic for me. But it certainly does exist, whatever I end up calling it.
On the flip side, whenever abuse / my own self hatred control me, I really feel physically poisoned by my thoughts. I think I know what you mean.
Thanks for the reply, Ah.
I'm sorry you feel ashamed when feeling angry. I feel your pain about this. From what I've read, the fight response is very threatening to narc-parents and they absolutely must not allow the child to go through the normal, healthy individualization process. I also struggle with expressing anger. But recently I'm more confident as I've learned more about abuse and narcs, and can see that my mother is one.
I thought I'd post a bunch of links in one place to some convincing spiritual stuff. I've hardly gotten into it myself, but you can check out some lectures by Dean Radin on YouTube. It's very science-y and a little dense but convincing. Also Tom Campbell. I'll definitely get his book.
Take care. Hope you had nice holidays.
Hey Hope, I just wanted to send you a :grouphug: and encourage you to keep going on your recovery journey. Thanks for the YouTube recommendations :)
Quote from: hereforhope on December 29, 2017, 02:42:17 PM
From what I've read, the fight response is very threatening to narc-parents and they absolutely must not allow the child to go through the normal, healthy individualization process.
That explains a lot, the domino effect of not being able to go through that process properly explains so many cptsd related habits I've been trying to understand.
I guess it's also what makes individuality from the side of their adult children so unfathomable to such parents, because to them their kids are part of them so how could their arm or their leg (or in my case, I bet my F would say I'm his discarded fingernails or something similarly worthless) preposterously just decide to change or walk away from them one day?
Thanks for the youtube recommendations, I'll absolutely look them up. Science-y and dense is good, it's just what my mind likes.
As for the holidays, I hid underground and did my best to ignore them... I have no loved ones and nothing to celebrate so I try to pretend holidays don't exist. I never succeed at it, but I keep stubbornly trying to make the holidays disappear. I hope yours were good? Even if parts were totally unenjoyable, I hope they were interesting. :yes:
I'd like to recommend Jerry Wise on YouTube. He covers childhood trauma and narcissistic parents among other things, and his videos has been very helpful to me, maybe you think so too.
Good analogy with the children as parts of a narcissists body. I've read and heard a similar description many times before.
Thanks for the well wishing. :) I hope you were ok too. I'm sorry you were alone. Your family sounds extremely toxic though so it's understandable. I'm not big into traditions myself and only celebrate out of obligation. And while I live with my mom, I also live with two cats who seem to love me a lot. :)
I hope you have a good new years eve.