My first abuse was by another child a few years older than me when I was about 4 or 5, maybe 6? I keep forgetting about it, i dont quite know why.
My second sexual abuse started when I was 16. The sexual legal age. He was six years older than I and it lasted for 5-6 years. But I never considered myself as a child. That I had been abused in my childhood. But this week a support person at the center for incest and sexual assault told me in no uncertain words that I had been a child. That at 16 I was still a child. And it might sound stupid, because I too do consider 16 year olds for children. So then why wasnt I one? I dont know if it matters yet, this apiphany. Other than making me more sad. Sad for my past me. My younger self.
When I was 17 a court of law considered me a child and not responsible. My abuser went to jail.
It's good to hear that you managed to report your assaulter, and that he got jail time! I never reported anyone, as I never felt like I had any proof. I didn't want to go through the process and loose.
Quote from: Lilfae on September 13, 2017, 08:07:35 PM
My second sexual abuse started when I was 16. The sexual legal age. He was six years older than I and it lasted for 5-6 years. But I never considered myself as a child. That I had been abused in my childhood. But this week a support person at the center for incest and sexual assault told me in no uncertain words that I had been a child. That at 16 I was still a child. And it might sound stupid, because I too do consider 16 year olds for children. So then why wasnt I one? I dont know if it matters yet, this apiphany. Other than making me more sad. Sad for my past me. My younger self.
I have similar dissonant thoughts, Lilfae - I consider teenagers to be children, unequivocally. But I forget that applies to 16 year old me, as well. And I feel guilty sometimes for "allowing" the abuse to continue for 4-5 more years, since at some point I crossed that arbitrary line (age of consent is 18 in my state). Maybe we didn't feel like children when we were 16 because we were already trying to act like little adults in order to survive, be it physically or emotionally. It makes me sad and angry at my younger self to think about it, too. I hope repeating this fact - I was a child - might help with self-forgiveness. I think your epiphany matters, go with those thoughts if you can.
Whether you are a child or not depends on a lot of things. Law says you're a child till you're 18, some people say you don't fully mature till you're 23 and thus a child till then, and some people say you're a child till you're 14. It all depends on what definition of 'child' you want to use.
I personally wouldn't call '16 years old' a child, thought that is just me. For me I felt like I stopped being a child at 12 years old. I had to smarten up and mature real quickly if I had to depend on myself so much, since I didn't have my parents' support. I had to do heaps of things on my own, and I never ever asked for help or ask questions like a child would. I've taken offence to people calling me a child, I probably was overreacting, but there's something about someone calling you a 'child' - supposedly the epitome of innocence and the happiest of people - and you're none of that. I guess that's just me though. I know people who are 22 and still call themselves children. I dunno.
When there is a power imbalance the age is irrelevant. Still, at 16 a person cannot fully understand what is going on. They are still developing cognitively.
As I was getting my memories back, my younger years came later, I remembered sa that happened on the school bus for an entire school year...9 months 7-10 times a week...by a 14 yr old girl. I was 17...and in the State I resided at that time, a minor, therefor a child, therefore sa became csa. However about 7-8 weeks after it began, I turned 18. At that point I knew she had me...one word and I would instantly be criminalized...and that kept me trapped in that situation for the duration of the school year. This was my first recovered memory of any abuse from my childhood...and it kinda blew my mind. :stars:
Quote from: AphoticAtramentous on September 14, 2017, 09:56:55 AM
[...] there's something about someone calling you a 'child' - supposedly the epitome of innocence and the happiest of people - and you're none of that. I guess that's just me though.
Definitely not just you. By society's standards (where "being a child" means being innocent, happy, carefree, with no "real" fears/responsibilities/problems/life experience, etc.) I've never been a child. How could I? I was (among other things) sexually abused from birth, every week non-stop until two months before I turned 6. My experience of childhood is so very removed from how everyone portrays it it's not even funny anymore (and never really was to begin with).
However, I gained perspective since I've been out of my 20s. Any situation where you are taken advantage of specifically because of the helplessness of your youth (and yes, that also includes you Andy) can be seen as child abuse if you wish so. You can struggle to see it that way, but it doesn't make that assessment less valid.
You can choose not to apply that label to yourself though, especially if you're still young and the idea of being seen as a child makes you feel more vulnerable.
But if it helps you understand it wasn't your fault (because it definitely wasn't!), then please allow yourself to think of your past self as a child who was taken advantage of. Because for all intent and purposes, it wouldn't be a lie.
However, I gained perspective since I've been out of my 20s. Any situation where you are taken advantage of specifically because of the helplessness of your youth (and yes, that also includes you Andy) can be seen as child abuse if you wish so. You can struggle to see it that way, but it doesn't make that assessment less valid.
Liminality, I'd like to add on to this from my own life..at the time that I remembered the aforementioned incident, any childhood abuse memories were still hidden. But since then I've had memories return to me that started before my 3rd birthday with a 4 day stay with a couple, where the man DAR/CSA me several times a night, all 4 nights. Yes, there was penetration. Around the same time I was being CSA by a teen boy at nursery/day care I was attending. At least one time he AR me and OR me as well. Most of those memories involving him are hidden still. But ever since that time I've had problems with going to the bathroom. I also had excruciatingly painful body memories of the penetration as well. There is more...including CPA from my parents, mostly my mom, which includes 6 years of CPA from age 5 to age 11. With emotional and mental abuse continuing through my teen and early adult years.
I just wanted to add this to give a little better understanding of where I"m coming from. Thanks.
Yes, I've read a few of your posts, most of them which I relate to strongly. You've been through the mills, there's absolutely no doubt about it.
I was just offering validation to anyone who has been sexually abused as a late teen/early20s, and I named you because I wished to include your 17-18th years old experience. That's all. :)
Quote from: Liminality on September 14, 2017, 05:49:23 PM
Yes, I've read a few of your posts, most of them which I relate to strongly. You've been through the mills, there's absolutely no doubt about it.
I was just offering validation to anyone who has been sexually abused as a late teen/early20s, and I named you because I wished to include your 17-18th years old experience. That's all. :)
I do appreciate being thought of....I struggle to feel noticed and thought of. ;D
Early 20s.... :blink: When I was 20, in the Marines, I was coerced via promise of a really good price on a nice restored older truck. I went over a middle aged woman's (cougar?) house for some light handyman work and yard work. After the 4th weekend, she wanted something else worked on...namely her. She promised a super good deal on truck, and even maybe return service...so I did...orally and digitally, for 2 hours...till she decided she was done. Then she said I have to leave then. No truck, and no returned favor either. A few days after that was the first time I attempted sui.
A few months later, I was targeted, groomed and SA 2X by a local used car salesman. He was more than 10 years older than me, and twice my size...and according to my first t...an apex predator. I stood no chance whatsoever. The first time was about a month before I turned 21, second time about a month after turning 21. He promised to kill me if I told..and he caught me off the base. And he would claim it was consensual gay sex and my idea. At that time it was illegal for gay men to serve in the U.S. Armed Forces. So falsely outing me would most likely have resulted in me being beaten to death by my fellow Marines...which was happening. And then the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ ) would have charged and convicted me...if I survived being beaten. This haunted me for the next 4 years as I served out my 6 year enlistment.
About 18 months later, while deployed overseas, I was physically assaulted by a physically larger drunk female Sailor. Then she SA me. She was drunk as they come...which automatically made me, a sober male Marine the aggressor and guilty party. I couldn't even yell for help...... :stars:
Quote from: Liminality on September 14, 2017, 05:15:22 PM
Definitely not just you. By society's standards (where "being a child" means being innocent, happy, carefree, with no "real" fears/responsibilities/problems/life experience, etc.) I've never been a child. How could I? I was (among other things) sexually abused from birth, every week non-stop until two months before I turned 6. My experience of childhood is so very removed from how everyone portrays it it's not even funny anymore (and never really was to begin with).
However, I gained perspective since I've been out of my 20s. Any situation where you are taken advantage of specifically because of the helplessness of your youth (and yes, that also includes you Andy) can be seen as child abuse if you wish so. You can struggle to see it that way, but it doesn't make that assessment less valid.
You can choose not to apply that label to yourself though, especially if you're still young and the idea of being seen as a child makes you feel more vulnerable.
But if it helps you understand it wasn't your fault (because it definitely wasn't!), then please allow yourself to think of your past self as a child who was taken advantage of. Because for all intent and purposes, it wouldn't be a lie.
I think I'm still at an age where people would be happy to call me a child. And I might have to resist lashing out on them lol. I'm certainly not as gullible/helpless as I was, I refuse to make any of the same mistakes I'd made that got me into so much trouble and mess when I was younger. And from all the experiences I've been through, it was almost impossible to befriend 'kids my age' (and still is really). I just had nothing in common with them. So I usually befriended people much older than me, spending time with people who weren't classified as 'children', it made me feel a lot more comfortable. I'd be interested to know if that's the same with others here.
Thanks for your response, Liminality.
Aphotic,
Last friend IRL I had, died over 14 years ago..and he was my twin brother's friend that I borrowed. Last friend that was truly mine at the outset...K...back in Kindergarten... :'(
When I was in second grade, the prettiest girl in the class invited the entire class to her birthday party...well, not really. Didn't invite teacher..didn't invite Andy either. Said there was something wrong with me, I was too strange and she couldn't have me ruining her party by being there. So...at age 7 I learned that I was/am different. But I didn't know why...I do now.
I didn't spend time with older people...either, couldn't trust them...looking back...until I was 15, every abuser had been older...anywhere from 10 years to 30plus years older.
Quote from: Frederica on September 14, 2017, 07:07:34 AM
I have similar dissonant thoughts, Lilfae - I consider teenagers to be children, unequivocally. But I forget that applies to 16 year old me, as well. And I feel guilty sometimes for "allowing" the abuse to continue for 4-5 more years, since at some point I crossed that arbitrary line (age of consent is 18 in my state). Maybe we didn't feel like children when we were 16 because we were already trying to act like little adults in order to survive, be it physically or emotionally. It makes me sad and angry at my younger self to think about it, too. I hope repeating this fact - I was a child - might help with self-forgiveness. I think your epiphany matters, go with those thoughts if you can.
I also feel guilty for allowing to happen, but I also have to keep reminding me that at the age of 16, I had no idea what was really going on. I was being manipulated and brainwashed. Most of those years have blacked out for me, I remember parts. The parts I remember are usually not the direct abuse, but rather the consequences. I stopped sleeping for a while, because I was too afraid. I became borderline psychotic due to the lack of sleep. i was suicidal and self destructive. But I also remember after I moved in with said abuser, at some point I would wake up at 7 in the morning and be paralyzed. I would be completely unable to move my body for the next 10 hours. It was *. It was like that for over a week before he took me to the ER. As I couldn't move, he couldn't take me earlier in the day. But still... He shouldn't have waited a week. I've wondered if the doctors knew it was a psychosomatic reaction to fear, and if they did why they chose to medicate me instead. I hope they didn't realise, that would make them less of a*holes.
But maybe you're right. I bet most 16 year olds doesn't consider themselves to be children either. Even if nothing traumatic has happened to them. But maybe some of us had more to deal with so there was no time left to be children. Though, I think someone else pointed this out too.. Biologically we're not finished growing either mentally or physically at the age of 16. Women or Men. Maybe that's what really defines us as children and adults, that once we're fully develloped, that's when we truly have grown up?
Quote from: AphoticAtramentous on September 14, 2017, 09:56:55 AM
I've taken offence to people calling me a child, I probably was overreacting, but there's something about someone calling you a 'child' - supposedly the epitome of innocence and the happiest of people - and you're none of that. I guess that's just me though. I know people who are 22 and still call themselves children. I dunno.
I have to admit, although people no longer call me a child. I do get bothere by the fact that people still say "you're so young", when I'm in my 30ies. And I suppose, for some of them I am still young, because I am younger than them. And I do feel young, I feel stuck in time. So eventhough I know I'm past 30, I feel like time has moved past without me.
I don't think I considered myself a child either when I was 16. But legally I was. And so were you, both at the age of 12, 14 and 16.
Quote from: Lilfae on September 15, 2017, 04:36:24 PM
But I also remember after I moved in with said abuser, at some point I would wake up at 7 in the morning and be paralyzed. I would be completely unable to move my body for the next 10 hours. It was *. It was like that for over a week before he took me to the ER. As I couldn't move, he couldn't take me earlier in the day. But still... He shouldn't have waited a week. I've wondered if the doctors knew it was a psychosomatic reaction to fear, and if they did why they chose to medicate me instead. I hope they didn't realise, that would make them less of a*holes.
But maybe you're right. I bet most 16 year olds doesn't consider themselves to be children either. Even if nothing traumatic has happened to them. But maybe some of us had more to deal with so there was no time left to be children. Though, I think someone else pointed this out too.. Biologically we're not finished growing either mentally or physically at the age of 16. Women or Men. Maybe that's what really defines us as children and adults, that once we're fully develloped, that's when we truly have grown up?
I also had sleep paralysis and somatic paralysis, but never for ten hours! That sounds HELLISH. I don't think I can even imagine, I've never been stuck for more than an hour and even that was like, the worst.
Yeah, everything up-to-date that I've read says a typical, healthy brain isn't really done developing until approximately age 25, and things like trauma, neglect and a poor environment delay it even further. One of the reasons that kids being kicked out of foster care at 18 do so poorly - the *average* 18-year-old is only 50% done with certain aspects of brain development, mostly related to decision making and impulse control, and those kids have usually had such unstable lives that they're not even 50% there. So if you had a fabulous and enriching childhood you might be done developing by 23, but but if your childhood was crap your brain might still be unfinished at 27 or even older.
Quote from: Frederica on September 17, 2017, 10:09:54 AM
I also had sleep paralysis and somatic paralysis, but never for ten hours! That sounds HELLISH. I don't think I can even imagine, I've never been stuck for more than an hour and even that was like, the worst.
It was hellish, especially when I needed to go to the toilet too. Or the hunger kicked in. Most of the time I was left alone. I hope it never happens again. And I hope you don't get to experience it either. I didn't know it had a name.
Oh goodness yes it's totally a real thing with a name! But I've never heard someone having such long episodes - it's normal I think for time to feel distorted like's taking forever but usually it is actually only a few minutes for most people. I don't know of any reason (biologically) why it couldn't last ten hours though, your body must have been just stressed beyond the limits of human endurance to glitch out that way. :aaauuugh:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_paralysis
Being left alone must have been completely terrifying, that's traumatic all on it's own. I hope it never happens to you again! There are therapeutic techniques and medications if it comes back though, you shouldn't have to just lay there and suffer! Gawds.
I remember waking around 7 in the morning, and I couldn't move until 16-17 in the afternoon. That's how I know it lasted for that long. Thank you for the link, I'll have a read!
Quote from: Frederica on September 17, 2017, 10:09:54 AM
Quote from: Lilfae on September 15, 2017, 04:36:24 PM
Yeah, everything up-to-date that I've read says a typical, healthy brain isn't really done developing until approximately age 25, and things like trauma, neglect and a poor environment delay it even further. One of the reasons that kids being kicked out of foster care at 18 do so poorly - the *average* 18-year-old is only 50% done with certain aspects of brain development, mostly related to decision making and impulse control, and those kids have usually had such unstable lives that they're not even 50% there. So if you had a fabulous and enriching childhood you might be done developing by 23, but but if your childhood was crap your brain might still be unfinished at 27 or even older.
So, then, when I joined the Marines right after high school, after a childhood full of abuse, I had no chance at all. I served 6 years, and was only just a few weeks past 25 when I got out. Even was deployed overseas in the mid-90s. I was SA 4X, PA 4X(one was during last SA) nearly died from choke hold. Attempt sui 7 times between 1994-1996, from right after first SA till right after last SA while in Marines. Had lots of alcohol induced black outs, lots of lost time, even spent 3 days in a coma on the floor in my room. Was arrested and charged and convicted of public intoxication during that time as well.
And that was after childhood full of abuse. No wonder I married a CN type personality...who as spent 20 years abusing me via DV...which covers nearly every type of DV abuse there is.
Would any of you maybe think I'm not too far off if I say that I think possibly I am a man physically and a child, in some sense mentally?
OH, here's an interesting and rather intriguing oxymoron for ya'll to ponder. Here in the U.S. A., the Federal Gov't considers anyone under the age of 21, a minor, regarding purchase and drinking alcoholic beverages. How then, do they think you're grown enough to serve and die for your country, with parents consent, at age 17???????? :stars: :pissed: :doh: :blink: :no: :aaauuugh: :aaauuugh: :aaauuugh: :aaauuugh: ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? You can enlist before you're even old enough to vote!!!!!
Quote from: Andyman73 on September 21, 2017, 01:21:26 PM
OH, here's an interesting and rather intriguing oxymoron for ya'll to ponder. Here in the U.S. A., the Federal Gov't considers anyone under the age of 21, a minor, regarding purchase and drinking alcoholic beverages. How then, do they think you're grown enough to serve and die for your country, with parents consent, at age 17???????? :stars: :pissed: :doh: :blink: :no: :aaauuugh: :aaauuugh: :aaauuugh: :aaauuugh: ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? You can enlist before you're even old enough to vote!!!!!
I absolutely agree it's nuts! The US military is happy to use children as cannon fodder, I guess. >:D I would def. support a law raising the draft and enlistment ages.
Quote from: Frederica on September 23, 2017, 10:25:30 PM
Quote from: Andyman73 on September 21, 2017, 01:21:26 PM
OH, here's an interesting and rather intriguing oxymoron for ya'll to ponder. Here in the U.S. A., the Federal Gov't considers anyone under the age of 21, a minor, regarding purchase and drinking alcoholic beverages. How then, do they think you're grown enough to serve and die for your country, with parents consent, at age 17???????? :stars: :pissed: :doh: :blink: :no: :aaauuugh: :aaauuugh: :aaauuugh: :aaauuugh: ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? You can enlist before you're even old enough to vote!!!!!
I absolutely agree it's nuts! The US military is happy to use children as cannon fodder, I guess. >:D I would def. support a law raising the draft and enlistment ages.
Thankfully it's an extremely rare occurance. I guess it's to allow those that are younger when they graduate high school the option to enlist. The draft can't take any younger than 18. And even then, must have transcripts to show you graduated.
It's funny that I am reading this today. My 17 (and 4 months) year-old leaves for basic training on Monday. I've spent the morning on the phone with the bank trying to figure out how he can have his own checking account while under 18.
Quote from: Dee on September 27, 2017, 07:01:39 PM
It's funny that I am reading this today. My 17 (and 4 months) year-old leaves for basic training on Monday. I've spent the morning on the phone with the bank trying to figure out how he can have his own checking account while under 18.
There you go, case in point. Dee I pray for protection and safekeeping to surround him for full length of his service.
Quote from: AphoticAtramentous on September 15, 2017, 06:07:29 AM
So I usually befriended people much older than me, spending time with people who weren't classified as 'children', it made me feel a lot more comfortable. I'd be interested to know if that's the same with others here.
It was similar for me, except that until I went to university I'm not sure that I really befriended any of these people in the real sense of the word. I'm not sure that they viewed me as friends really. For me it was an escape from people my own age, of whom I was generally frightened and around whom I felt nervous and out of place. It's not surprising really, B1 was a paradigm of 'what teenagers should be' and I was and still am very different from him. I was not sexually abused by him, but physically and emotionally. He's only 2 years older than me. So people of a similar age - No way, no way, no way. Get me out of here. :disappear: :spooked:
Quote from: Blueberry on October 02, 2017, 12:31:47 PM
It was similar for me, except that until I went to university I'm not sure that I really befriended any of these people in the real sense of the word. I'm not sure that they viewed me as friends really. For me it was an escape from people my own age, of whom I was generally frightened and around whom I felt nervous and out of place. It's not surprising really, B1 was a paradigm of 'what teenagers should be' and I was and still am very different from him. I was not sexually abused by him, but physically and emotionally. He's only 2 years older than me. So people of a similar age - No way, no way, no way. Get me out of here. :disappear: :spooked:
Thanks for replying, Blueberry.
"For me it was an escape from people my own age", oh yeah, definitely sympathise with you there. My ex/abuser is only 3 years older than me. So my friends are mostly way older than me, or in some cases younger. But never are they my own age. My youngest friend is 12 years old and my oldest is 48! Wow.
I wonder what ages my friends IRL would be...if I had any.
My friends used to be older. Then at some point I became older... Now they are all ages. Although most of my friends live all over the world, so it gets hard to keep a track sometimes.
Was thinking, since all of my friends are online only, friends, they do range from old enough to technically be my parent(17 years older), but still 7 years younger than my mom, who is 15 months younger than my dad.
I think a few of my online friends are young enough I could easily be their dad. But that's only due to being members of an online survivor community.