Out of the Storm

Hey guys.
I dont know where to start, but I'm worried that something is wrong, with my T.
Just come out of a session with her, and i feel bummed out.
Not because of what we talked about- (sure, it bumms me out)- but its more because of what she said, and also because of what she *didnt say*.

I dont know how to trust my intuition, but I'm listening to that something inside that is telling me that i dont feel good after seasons sometimes and that I'm doubting her.
I have always had this...not every session- some are great and she seems different.
I realise now looking back, that with narc X, if felt this way, - not good like something was wrong, like he wasnt emotionally there for me or present emotionally, as well as a general feeling that something was wrong.
Then things were ok, and i felt better, then it felt like something was wrong again only i never listened or trusted my intuition, and thought it was just me or that i was emotional flash backing or something.
He always said I'm irrational and that its me.

I called T asking if she could talk (it was urgent) and said shed contact me.
She called me but i missed her call because i overslept when i finally got to sleep that night- due to not sleeping much at all.
I text her to explain what happened, and
T didnt reply to my text to let me know that she couldnt contact me again that week.
So I didnt hear her for a week.

Is that wrong?
Am i making excuse thinking...
We didnt have a session that week-
because she was off so:
. It could have been bad circumstances that she was in - family stuff- anything, -
so thats why she didnt even text me.
or
.that she is too busy to text (who knows how many other clients she contacts outside of sessions)
or
.She sees lots of people, so she forgets...

She text me yesterday and apologised saying she had to get a flight, so she couldnt get back to me.
Am i wrong in thinking she is a bit late in letting me know that?
She asked if i still wanted to talk...so i took a risk and said yes...
So she rang me
She said-
*So, this is your time to talk about whatever you want to talk about-
so off you go...*
and i just froze.
There is so much to talk about, and i didnt know where to begin and her saying that scared me.

Is this a red flag?-
After one session with her, i text her to thank her for asking questions to get me to open up.
I told her i find it difficult to talk, so questions are really helpful.
It seems like she forgot this when we were on the phone.
Does she forget because she sees lots of people?
That person that is her- i built up in my head what talking to her would be like...and it wasnt how i thought it would be.
I was so upset after the call that i cried and was angry with myself, but i had to hold it together as i was around others and others that wouldnt understand or be the most supportive.

Im not sure if I'm not seeing things correctly..or if I'm imagining things, as all ive known from FOO and other friends and X, is narcissistic relationships.
X does things and did things- to intentionally hurt me T thinks.
He would know things, know how i felt about someitng, or what i wanted- he would ask...and then he would do the exact opposite-
or just ignore things that i told him.
I know he cant remember everything, but i wonder how much of it he did on purpose to hurt me.
Im worried that she is doing this.

Today in session, she didnt talk as much as usual.
She's not too much of a talker- which is good-
but i felt i got less from her than usual.
I hope she's not going through a bad patch.
I cant help wondering if -
maybe she likes to watch me squirm when there is silence.

And she's not there to change my opinion- she said that to me-
but why do i feel unsupported when i say something such as, its so stupid...after ive told her something truthful
I say it because I worry she is judging (as i cant tell what she's thinking from her silence)
But she just leaves it at that
and it sounds attention seeking me saying those things as though I'm probing for a reaction from her, but its automatic, i cant help doing it.
I know she's not me and not in my situation, but she has always seemed just so relaxed, and to me, sometimes it comes across as if she just doesnt care, even though she is sitting up in her chair and listening to me- and she *seems present*.
It just feels to me like she doesnt care *enough*

I always felt this with X. There was something missing, that being, genuine caringess about how i felt and what i was saying and there was lack of empathy.
My dad was like this and my mum too.
Its on video footage of our arguments and discussions (X and I) -we recorded to try and help us see what was wrong with us.

I told her i was afraid to go cook in this place and why.
She said, *so, are you MAKING AN EFFORT to go and cook something?*
That made me feel uncomfortuble- as thought I'm NOT making an effort-
as though i can help this
and i told her before she said that, that I'm pushing myself to be around others.

Another red flag:
She didnt pick up on the signs of what partner was doing when i told her -
and ive talked about partner for ages when i was with him.
Today i talked about narcissistic abuse, what he had been doing-
and she didnt seem surprised or anything.
She hadn't heard of the terms used when discussing narcissistic abuse-
and this worries me.
Doesnt mean she wont be able to help me-
but-
when i first wen to see her, i asked her if she had heard of narcissism, and if she understands that its not ALWAYS me-
but that i am the way i am- BECAUSE of narcissistic abuse.

This is all so confusing.
She also said that i didnt need to ring her in the end about the refuge I'm staying at, because i managed to sort out what to do myself in terms of a refuge and weather to go or not.
which is the main reason i called last week in the first place.
That is true, and i realised that myself and i was so proud of that-
even though I'm tired of having to be strong all the time.
Im tired of suffering and feeling so bad and alone.

But what she said felt like an anbonaoment.
I know she's my T so she cant care about me In the way that i want her to.
But i wished that she said to me that i can still call if i need to.
She said to leave it next time and calm down then figure out on my own what to do , before calling someone.
She said i should trust myself more.

X said a lot of correct things- caring things-
but something was really off.
What if she's doing this too?
I have thought this for a long time, and i dont know how to listen to that voice that is telling me to be careful.

Oh yes, and i cant remember in what order it was said, but i said-
that I'm not ungrateful for having a safe place to stay...but I'm finding it hard there, and this is therapy so i have to be honest.
She said, yes, but it is good to have a place to stay.
Im  worried that she thinks I'm moaning.

She said we can talk about these red flags, as i blunderingly mentioned it one time,
and i told her i was worried she would convince me she didnt mean this or that,
(just like X did), so i think i have to figure this out on my own-
cos she could be very good at manipulating me.

One part of my brain says she is fine, another says not.
I know this is called cognitive dissonance, so do you guys think I'm experiencing that?
I just dont know what to do and ive thought this for a long time
How long should i go on like this- waiting it out??
Is all this just cos I'm extra emotional at the moment?

ps. i always doubt, then need to see her again as the week goes on, and all doubt goes away.

Thanks a lot for reading.

This reminds me a bit of my former shrink. I posted about him. /I think the title was "My shrink says I'm sick, I have a disease" or something like that. If you can find it, you're welcome to read it and see if any of the advice I was given is helpful. Also do you watch Melanie Tonia Evans? She gets heavy into the narcissist's B.S. :aaauuugh:

Thanks Danaus

I am definitely going to read your post.
Ooh, i will check out Melanie as well. Thanks so much for both.

hi sienna, don't know if i am understanding correctly but from what u writ e it seems to me that you may have a T with a somewhat 'blank screen' style of working with clients.  i had one of those, and i found it very traumatising, simply becos of the similarities (in my perception) between the way she was with me and the way the people who had abused me were. i felt the lack of empathy and the feeling of never knowing where she was coming from and it made me feel teriibly insecure and have all the same sorts of doubts and fears that you describe. 

my feeling is that perhaps she is just not a good fit for you, that blank screen type therapists are not helpful for cptsd sufferers becos of the nature of the interpersonal trauma they have suffered.  i hope this helps you feel it's not your fault, and probably not even hers that things are this way, just perhaps her style is not appropriate for you?

Hey Arpy1
Thanks so much for replying to my post and for telling me what you think.

I always thought she seemed kind of- blank.
I'm so sorry you had this experience and they you were not happy with your T.
Did you manage to find another who isn't so blank?
You help me to understand why it is so bothersome.
It's confusing, because sometimes she is more...dynamic? -talkative and expression ate.
She is empathic most of the time Abd age said that if I'm confused by something she's say, I can call get it text and ask after the session or in the week.

msyve I should bring it up with her. I don't want to not see her because if this and maybe it's more because she is fine a lot of the time. Maybe it's trauma bonding or something- even if she isn't being blank on purpose.

Thanks so much Arpy. It's helped me to understand this a little more- the "possible reasons" you describe as to what "might" be happening.
Thank you 😊

Thank you Arpy and Sienna for originally posting.  I'd like to get better at finding the right therapist for myself.  I don't trust my judgement any longer, so reading your posts has been useful and hope you don't mind me joining the conversation.

I definitely had the blank screen T at times, when she wasn't talking that is.  This was number 2 who wasn't at all good.  Looking back I ended up using some of the tactics I used to attempt to understand my mother, in other words because T 2 didn't give me feedback I ended up "reading" her and 2nd guessing.  T 2 didn't  suggest how I should behave any other way (such as by encouraging questions or feed back), instead criticised me for doing this. She didn't keep the connection going at all in the "therapeutic relationship", she only talked about it!  I think you need to listen to your red flags Sienna and if it all feels familiar to you then it probably is, this may not be at all about projection but maybe about her abilities.   I used to feel put on the spot also which felt very nerve wracking and T really should be  more sensitive to your needs I think.  But I'm no expert!

T 3 was a "relational" style which was a lot better for me and I felt a lot closer somehow and didn't have to keep guessing and interpreting what was happening because T 3 was very clear, reassuring and explained everything to me.  I stopped going to her for other reasons but not because she wasn't good.

I had one T that was so blank, she didn't remember anything from one week to the next. If my name wasn't on the cover of my file I doubt she would have even remembered that and she was my insurance company's preferred provider. To get real help I had to go from a $20 co-pay to $150 out of pocket which I could not afford on a weekly basis. My out of network T was excellent but I just didn't have the money to keep seeing her. Now I'm covered under the Zadroga Act as I was at the WTC on 9/11. The doctors and therapists there are very interesting. Some in very good ways, some in not so good ways as I have described elsewhere (My Shrink says I'm Sick, I have a Disease). :aaauuugh:

No, no, its absolutely fine Snailspace.
I always worry about jumping on others threads too.

I know how it is to not trust your own judgement. I do really hope that you can find a good therapist for you.
Gosh, im so sorry you have been through two therapists already. That really sucks.

Looking back I ended up using some of the tactics I used to attempt to understand my mother,
Yes, i relate to this, but not sure if I'm repeating a pattern from the past with her in my attempt to understand her.
Maybe its just me, feeling afraid to bring things up, worrying she will twist things or manipulate me and give me the answers i want and not the truth.

How awful that she criticised you for asking questions, and asking for feedback.
I think that, even though it must of sucked, leaving her was probably for the best from the sounds of things.
You must of had to be really brave to do that, and its so great that you did a healthy thing for yourself, for your own well being.

Thank you so much for your opinion. Sometimes she reminds me of my neglectful dad.
You mention being *reasuring*.
When I'm crying, she is not always reassuring. I need to hear that it is ok to cry, and i stuff my tears and swallow them in front of her, and she doesnt say any tog.
I keep thinking that she is waiting for me to trust her over time, and that over time i will just naturally cry.
I have been crying more, but if big sobs want to come out, i automatically hold them in or disassociate, so then it just goes away and i dont feel what I was feeling anymore.
Its confusing because sometimes she says that crying is good, or...its ok, and she will pass me the  tissue box.

Pete Walker- are you familiar with him?
He talked about the relational side of therapy helping to heal us.
He says is very important.
I can send you some links to from Pete Walker stuff if you like. He has a few books too that he wrote.

oh and ps. you are so amazing for going back to therapy after having bad luck with your T's.
I do hope you can find another therapist- if that is what you would like.
there may be some help on the forum regarding that...not sure.  :hug:

I once had a pair of Ts  who would grin like spiders whenever they made anyone cry. Really creped me out. :spooked:

finding the right fit with a therapist can be a hit and miss kind of thing.   just know that it's not you.  and, it may not be the therapist, either.   i agree with arpy1 on that.  but, it seems that you have a lot of doubts and misgivings about this therapist, and that, right there, is a red flag to me. 

i had an awful experience with my first therapist, on many levels, but one that stood out was the idea you mentioned about not feeling good after a session.  not feeling good about yourself?  i don't think that's a good thing.  not feeling good about the way the therapist responded?  not feeling good about how the session went?  also, i don't think those are good things.  to my mind, a therapist should always find a way to help and encourage a client to feel good about him/herself, no matter how difficult the session itself might have been.  we're all going to have difficult sessions at times, when we're confronted with ourselves, our own responsibilities in a relationship, (no, i'm not blaming the victim here, just that we must always look at if or how we might have done things differently in the past, and what we need to change for the future) and/or we went through a sensitive subject that brought our emotions to the fore.   still, no matter what the content of the session, i do believe that the client's well-being comes first.   if nothing else, you show great courage and strength in asking for help, and you deserve the best help you can get.

there are lots of therapists who are very aware of this dynamic, and work hard to provide it for their clients.   i think there is nothing wrong with wanting a therapist who gives that to you, so there is nothing wrong with looking for a different therapist when you don't get it where you are.   it's difficult to have to change therapists, i know, but i also know that when you have one with whom you have a good fit, it makes all the difference in the world.  best to you, sienna. 

Hi Sienna and all - there are some good articles here that may be helpful (scroll down) - http://www.outofthestorm.website/therapy-resources-1.

Yes, that would creep me out too Danaus!
Definitely not what you need from a therapist!  :sadno:

Hey Kizzie,
Thank you so much for that! Theres many links on there to different websites.
One website - good therapy.org even explains what empathy is. Very good, thank you.

You're very welcome  :hug:

Hi Sanmagic7

Thank you for reminding me that its not *me*.
I would understand if i was being difficult...and because I'm so closed off...i went into this one talking..and talking helps to fill the silences....unless she says something that i think...what??..and i freeze.

Do you think that its a red flag that sometimes, she is just so great, and i come back feeling better? 
It seems that its either that, or if feel bad in regards to her.

Im sorry to hear that you had an awful experience with your first therapist.
Its not really that i dont feel good *about myself*, I did once, because she didnt explain what she meant, she was quite blunt. I felt terrible that evening and the entire week ahead after the session.
(Looking back, i think that my narc X wanted me to quit therapy...as he didnt do his usual and tell me that its me thinking things in my head, things that are not based in reality.)-but thats another topic.
I usually feel like someitng was missing from the session.
Sometimes i dont want to leave- and i think that i can differentiate between the two- the longing feeling i have for her sometimes, and the other feeling that she wasnt entirely present and that she lacked empathy.
Its hard to see- if the lack of empathy exists, because she will nod, or smile, or look concerned...and not say much at times...but if she yawned or looked away (which she sometimes does but we talked about that), then id be able to trust that it is lack of empathy more.
So yes, not feeling great about the way she responded.
Sometimes, she tells me we have say, five minutes left, other times, she wont, and its awful if i have been crying.

I can spot the sessions in which it was difficult because of *me*, because of the topics disgussed- or if its just difficult for me to leave because i feel a hole in my life where my parents should be.
And sure, accepting responsibility is hard. Its more the way she responds or ...doesnt respond...when I'm telling her how i feel, or how the week has been (and i only bring the difficult stuff from the week into the room)
And- if i rambled on and on and all attention was on me completely..id understand her..absence.

I know ive talked about this, but i cant imagine changing therapist. Not at the moment anyway. Ill see how it goes. I have a soft spot for her, and maybe thats bad if she is not good for me...but yes...

Thank you so much for giving your input...best wishes to you too  :hug:

 :hug: to you Kizzie

Oh my gosh guys, Im so upset.
Lizzie, thank you so much for the links.
The Pete Walker article- surprise suprise- explained everything i was experiencing - *everything*.
Im so sad. But thank you Lizzie.
I need to hear this even if i dont like it.

She IS a blank screen type therapist and i was unsure, because sometimes she DOES empathise, like how Pete Walker said. And sometimes she doesnt.
Once she told me she was angry about what my parents did, and angry about partner.
But she didnt *seem* angry- and i wondered if she actually was- and i questioned her on this - asking her how she could feel angry when I'm just another client.

And sometimes, she will tell me what she thinks intellectually about my pain- about where its comming from- and thats good- i want to know-
but she doesnt empathise.
ie. i was crying about the little one where I'm living being neglected and calling out for his mother, and his crying...
and she said that maybe that reminds me of younger me because that might have happened to me.
I cried then and held in my tears.
She didnt empathise or say, that it sounds difficult or it must be hard for me..or its very sad...
though its confusing - as she does say things like this sometimes.

The article said that they can mirror the passive neglectful father- and my dad was that and i think i wrote up at the top- that she does remind me of my emotionally neglectful dad.

When i berate myself and say I'm stupid or what I'm saying is stupid, she never corrects me or asks why, and she does NOT explore it with me.
God if i could count the number of times i got back home and said to partner about how she never explored what i just said. She never picked it up as a red flag.

And about triggering a sense of shame and abandonment- yes yes and yes. *This* is how i feel IN SESSIONS and AFTER sessions, and i am wracked with guilt and self loathing - feeling I talked too much, and i often wonder what she thinks of what i said- of me- and i wonder how much she understands.

I feel i want to change her way of relating to me- i dont want to leave her, i cant leave her.
She is the only stable person i have ,and in a way, i do love her in my own way.
And i know that even if its not her fault she is this way with me-
i have to do whats best for me. Why do i feel a compulsion to just change the relationship = like i did with my narc X?? to fix the past??

Im just not sure i can with everything thats happened and all the losses ive had over my lifetime and recently.
I just cant go through another loss. I know it might not hurt as I'm very good at disassociating, but i just cant do it.

i found the woman on the phone about the refuge more understanding and empathic than T , and i find you guys on the forum more empathic than my T.

I dont know what to do. Im just so disappointed. And if i talk to her about this- which i will tomorrow, i dont know if she will change.  :'(

Sienna, do you feel strong/safe enough to be able to tell her what you need from her?  If you do, Pete Walker's article on relational healing might be useful to take to her and discuss - I think that's what you're looking for from her if I'm not mistaken.  http://pete-walker.com/pdf/relationalHealingComplexPTSD.pdf.  I know you are very afraid to lose her right now and I understand that feeling completely so I'm not saying you should do it, maybe just mull it over.  :hug:

Hey Kizzie,
I don't think I can tell her what I need from her...as it might look needy and I have issues with needing things.  :(
But I can talk to her about my concerns.
I'm just worried I'll upset her or make her feel incompetent or not good enough and I'm also worried she'll enjoy my pain or unhappiness and they she'll play me like s narcissist.

I hope I can do it. I know I'll probably get testy and slander myself for even wanting to bring this up once I get into the room. It's just what I do for fear of her thinking it's stupid and not worth discussing.

They was long! Thank you for the article. I was worried that if I give it to her she will be offended and that she might say she can't do therapy with me anymore. If she does do the things from the article,  worried it would be coming from s fake place- as she doesn't seem right now, to see good reason to do these things otherwise she would of, ....wouldn't she?
Thanks for your understanding Kizzie  :hug:
« Last Edit: Today at 12:56:06 PM by Kizzie »

Auto correct- agh - not testy how embarrassing- I meant teary

Dear Sienna,

Excuse this off topic comment. I still have trouble navigating the virtual world. Flash was the member who first introduced me to the concept of Velcro butt.

Sincerely,
Danaus plexippus

I understand completely Sienna  :yes: and   :hug:

Hey guys, I really need sone help - if you don't mond ...

Went to therapy appointment today.
We talked for a bit about how things have been going.
There was a silence, so I said that I should probably just talk.
I told her I had a list of a few different things to talk about, one being about "us"- as she asked me what things I had to talk about.

I talked about current triggers where I'm loving, and sbout my dad who came down to visit.

At the end, she asked what I wanted to talk to her about - regarding us.

I said it's weird now - because you have responded to what I said just fine.
I explained about reading about blank screen therapists,
Lack of empathy,
Not sure she understands me..
Leave feeling that something was missing- in the same way they I feel that with my dad.
Told her it light just be me thinking weirdly
That everyone's different-
That I'm worried she may go these things but that she won't want to-
Just like nark X partner who I had to teach to show empathy and he said there's no point and he only did it because I wanted hin too.

Im writing how I said it to get a lot more bluntly on here than how I actually said it to her.
She asked for examples
I said that when u said "what does it matter what people think" instead of empathising or showing she understood how I felt or where I was coming from .
I said to her that she might have been challenging me.

I said they when you said you felt angry with my patents and partner- I questioned if she really meant it-
Because she didn't seem angry.

Red flag-
She said "what do you want me to do? Make a big show about it?"
And I just sat there and said "no."
Abs she just kept quiet and just kept looking st me.
I'm not sure if I sensed enjoyment out of her being like this.

She just said she does feel angry...
That she doesn't want to speak unless I have a realisation it something else to say cos she doesn't want it to disappear if I do have more to say.
(Afterwards she doesn't always empathise etc after I've finished speaking and she sometimes lets there be silence so..if I've finished on they particular subject- I move on to another if it gets too awkward with get not commenting on what I just said.

Gave her the article.
I told her so many times about how I don't want to upset get, make her self conscious with her next client / clients,
Didn't want to hurt get feeling and that I don't want to leave.

Her saying "what do you want"-
Well I don't know because this stuff is so subtle and I've never received proper parenting so I don't know what is normal or what I should want- or do want.
Huge trigger as my mum use to day if we were bored -
"What do you want- me to throw you a carnival?!!"

I just felt ashamed and guilty and I froze right then and there when she said that and my mind bruised what she said away and thanked get as usual and was as sweet as pie. I even didn't want to leave. It was like that moment never happened in my brain until I remembered on my way home after the session.

It's a though she is saying that what I wanted was u reasonable
I should have never brought this up "with her" Abd I get do upset.

What do you guys think?
Id really like to know- it would be much appreciated.
If I feel this bad- is it just a flashback or due to the president?

Ps she was great on session today. Was that because she wanted to confuse me or throw me off guard with get last comment?

Omg- I can not write on mummy price. I miss Internet!! Hope you can make sone sense out of what I've written.

Sienna, I think the article is so well written and heartfelt that she cannot possibly miss the fact that you need her to be more human. IMO it isn't too much to ask from your end, that is what you need and want afterall, the things you didn't get as a kid and deserved.  Feeling some of that now is part of what helps us to process the trauma - I really think Walker is right about that.

It may, however, not be something she is comfortable with so you'll have to see what she makes of it.   I think it's very brave that you did give it to her, to ask for what you want and need.  That's you looking out for you and deep inside younger you has to know that you are really trying to be there for her.  :thumbup:

If she's not comfortable being more relational, then perhaps she can work with you while seeing if she has a colleague in the area who does use a relational approach.   

Hey Kozzie,
Thank you so much. And thank you for sending me the article- you have helped a lot and thank you for suggesting that I give her the article to read.

I see what you are saying about the article not offending get, and I hope you are right.

IMO it isn't too much to ask from your end, that is what you need and want afterall, the things you didn't get as a kid and deserved. 
Thanks for your reasurance.

yes, I agree with Walker about feeling things like this is processing trauma. I'm just worried I'm not processing because I'm sure I'm still blocked to my feelings but maybe I'm processing as much as I can at the moment.

I never even thought of this. So thanks 😊
That's you looking out for you and deep inside younger you has to know that you are really trying to be there for her.  :thumbup:

And also thank you for your suggestion about her still working with mr whilst finding a relational therapist.
Do you mean that I see two Ts?
Or keep seeing T whilst I look for someone else?

If her comment pops into my head...I'm so ashamed again. Don't want get to think I want a fuss making of me or that I'm attention seeking. That's what the narc lady said.
Can't this lulu enough again for your help and support Kizzie  :hug:

Just catching up now have laptop internet.
I understand completely Sienna  :yes: and   :hug:
Thank you. Its so great that you understand.  :hug:

Just catching up...
Danaus-  I dont know Flash.  Is velcro but a technological term? or do you mean you are trying to figure out how to use the forum?
Your message made me chuckle.
Danes plexippus- did you know your name meant this? -
danaus plexippus - Dictionary definition and meaning for word danaus plexippus. (noun) large migratory American butterfly having deep orange wings with black and white markings; the larvae feed on milkweed.  (sounds very nice  :yes:)
I thought Plexippus meant that you are perplexed!  :stars: made me laugh.

to tell you the truth, it's difficult to be able to tell why this therapeutic experience seems so topsy-turvy to you.  again, i don't think it's you, but what is this therapist doing that makes it seem that way for you?  is she going back and forth between behaviors, some of them welcoming, some of them distancing?  and, yawning (unless she immediately apologized because she was up all night or something) in a session seems just rude to me.  i'm not surprised you have a soft spot for her - she may be reminding you of someone in your life, or a relationship you've had with someone else.   like i said, i understand difficult sessions, but with a competent therapist i never took it personally, never doubted my 'self', as it were.  those times were simply fraught with emotion, painful memories and the like.   and the therapist would reassure me that i was working hard, that getting to the bottom of this stuff is difficult, even painful, at times, but that i could give myself credit for sticking with it, for going through it, or for being courageous enough to even look at the issues.   there may be something here to think about for you, something that might ring true.  or maybe not.  just my thoughts.  i know you're struggling with this, and i also know you'll do what's best for you, whether it be staying or leaving.  it's your journey.   take care of you first, always.

Hey guys, and Kizxie,
I just wanted to fill you in.
I had a session wotj T today.
Anxious bygone hand because of her comment last session and also because of the Pete walker paper I gave her.

She was do great today.
I thought this might happen and the paranoid part of me wonders if it's a tactic she is doing (if she is bad) to confide me...
But I will see how it goes.

She asked about what it was from the article I related to and she said that if I feel she isn't saying enough or if I think she doesn't I understand or empathise, I should ask her, which we talked about -so she knows that's hard for me to do.
She was more comforting today when I cried and everything- she was validating, understanding, she made me feel they my needs etc Snd feelings were valid and understandable.
She spotted my Shane and was just so reassuring.
She did day "stop spologiding" when I apologised for crying but she said lots of other comforting things.
I felt heard and seen by her.
She was so nice about the article and understood as the article said, that I want to feel and be heard.

She was just very reassuring so I didn't feel sepetate, stranded and alone.
She is like this sometimes, just other times not.
But I think I notice more of a difference today.
I text get to thank her and said again that I hope get confidence hadn't been knocked.
She had read my text but hadn't replied. She sometimes doesn't and I don't text after every session but I don't know why she hadn't got back to me.
Doesn't she know they I'm left wondering of I've upset her?  Could be any reason she hadn't replied so I'm trying to not get too carried away with myself in worried and negative thoughts.
She may get back to me tomorrow.
It just makes me feel they old familiar feeling of disappointment and they she can't care about me in the est that I want get too,

Kizzie, I can't thank you enough for sending me third links. You have been s life saver.  :hug:
Ps thank you everyone else so much for your comments  I'm not yet done with the support this thread has offered.

Dam my small phone  and auto correct- I will copy and paste this tomorrow but with the correct words.

Please read this post instead of the one above:

Hey guys, and Kizzie,
I just wanted to fill you in.
I had a session with T today.
Anxious before hand because of her comment last session and also because of the Pete walker paper I gave her.

She was so great today.
I thought this might happen and the paranoid part of me wonders if it's a tactic she is doing (if she is bad) to confide me...
But I will see how it goes.

She asked about what it was from the article I related to and she said that if I feel she isn't saying enough or if I think she doesn't I understand or empathise, I should ask her, which we talked about -so she knows that's hard for me to do.
She was more comforting today when I cried and everything- she was validating, understanding, she made me feel they my needs etc and feelings were valid and understandable.
She spotted my Shane and was just so reassuring.
She did day "stop apologising" when I apologised for crying but she said lots of other comforting things.
I felt heard and seen by her.
She was so nice about the article and understood as the article said, that I want to feel and be heard.
However on second memory- she did say, *it seems that you just want everything to be perfect don you*
and i said, what makes you think that...?
She said she just got the impression...
I said that when it comes to therapy, isn't it ok for it to be perfect?
She said yes.
So its like she said something which i felt insulted by, then when i questioned her about it and said what i thought and she did what X said and just said *yes* as though she was agreeing with me, despite saying what she did.
She might of meant that therapy isn't always perfect-
but it was in relation to the article that she said it, - she said it when we were talking about the article..its as though she is not directly saying:
*What you want is unreasonable*
But it seems that she *is saying that* but more subtly.

She was just very reassuring so I didn't feel sepetate, stranded and alone.
She is like this sometimes, just other times not.
But I think I notice more of a difference today.
I text get to thank her and said again that I hope get confidence hadn't been knocked.
She had read my text but hadn't replied. She sometimes doesn't and I don't text after every session but I don't know why she hadn't got back to me.
Doesn't she know they I'm left wondering of I've upset her?  Could be any reason she hadn't replied so I'm trying to not get too carried away with myself in worried and negative thoughts.
She may get back to me tomorrow.
It just makes me feel they old familiar feeling of disappointment and that she can't care about me in the way that I want get too.

Kizzie, I can't thank you enough for sending me third links. You have been s life saver.  :hug:
Ps thank you everyone else so much for your comments  I'm not yet done with the support this thread has offered.

regarding T not getting back to you: They may care very much about us, but we are only one of many of their clients and they have a life outside of work. To be effective they are taught to practice nonjudgmental detachment. They are trained to not be offended by anything you say. We are their clients not their bosom companions. I became attached to 2 of my Ts. They were helpful and I do occasionally miss them, but I understand their lives go on without me. I expect my current   providers in the mental hygiene industry to behave professional. As you read in my previous posts I recently had to request a transfer from the shrink who prescribes my meds. Ts and shrinks no matter how well educated and experienced, are still human and humans are not perfect. Be careful, I worry about you. As bad as this group home is involuntary hospitalization is worse, much worse.  :aaauuugh:

i feel nothing but invalidated.  :pissed:

Had a great day and nothing will ruin. Frustrated. t wants me to list qualities I think an "ideal dad" would have,
When it comes to this therapy stuff I'm a perfectionist/- it has to work so that  I can heal.
But I am struggling and it has to be written in an order they makes sense to me and all the things he didn't do come under a heading is. Emotional neglect- do I'm thinking I just say- not emotionally neglectful- but for me it doesn't cover it.
There are behaviours I go for in men - bad ones- they may all come under the heading of neglect.
I don't know what the positive side is called either...I can only state the things he shouldn't have don'e but
I don't know what was missing from my dad because I can't remember.
So how can even she know? I think it's too early to do this and that it will be better doing this further down the line when I've figured everything out as much as I can.  It seems stupid doing this excessive when we haven't explored the past in that much detail. I need to know all of exactly what was wrong eith my parents.
Another exercise I won't have done properly.  :pissed:

just offloading even if know one cares or reads this.

X was at the volunteering place today.
Didn't think he'd be in.
Avoided him and stayed in one of the empty offices.
Anxiety bad and felt trapped.

Triggers today - people saying I'm fine - making assumptions about something else.
The problem is me- not being able to be honest- cos of my parents (apparent competence thing)
but it is difficult- when others assume, even when I'm not pretending all the time and am fine going about the centre.
They know nothing about the challenges i have due to visual impairment because they never see them when I'm in an unfamiliar environment. So they just make assumeptions- just come out with big statements, and i cant correct them as i dont know how to, too worried about what htyell think, that it will sound attention seeking, that they might think I'm lying or exaggerating etc. and i dont want to look attention seeking.
my head says- if people think your fine ALWAYS, and NEVER STRUGGLE - you should just pretend you are- because its good that they think that.
I know my parents wanted everything to look perfect on the outside. Thats all that mattered to them , and also, i was forced to not appear different and to look normal in every possible way.
If my mother could get rid of my hair and my visual impairment- she would have done.

I couldnt talk in T session much today- and maybe thats why.
Im sad about it and still feel that everything is invisible.
Im just so closed off and smile a lot and act like everything is fine and just a laughing matter.
People want me to appear fine and strong- and today i did that in T session

When i came out of T room-
X was there. Narc X.
It freaked me out and i panicked- saying maybe a little too loudly *Holy * *
or maybe i was the only one who heard that.
I think he and his T said something about me closing the door - i rushed out of there.
How weird when T wanted to know how i felt with him being at the centre.

He went to therapy when he was with me-
then stopped going.
He may be going just to appease and put on a good front to his new girlfriend.
It freaks me out so much.
HE IS SO FAKE. IT IS ALL SO FAKE and he may have his therapist fooled if she doesnt know about narcissism.
I really doubt that he has actually seen the light in his behaviour and that he really wants help.
It makes me sick.
And i HATE that he is there- in my own private space- the one place i go to for ME.
What?-i have to fear him being there too!??
UGH.
Who knows what he is saying to his T about me. About the no contact.
I bet he lied to her - he told me his T said he doesnt need to come anymore but that he can come back any time if he wants.
Im just hoping she said that because she sees his narc traits.
He doesnt think theres a problem- so she wont be able to help him.
I hope he doesn't have her fooled- twisting the story so that all she has to work with is what he is *telling her*, making out like he is the good person here.

The world wants me to be alone, isolated, and to deal with my problems and any feelings i have myself. So thats what i have been doing ,and that is what i will continue to do.
Thats just the way it has to be for me, just like the lady with undiagnosed NPD.
She lived a life of loneliness and whilst a narc who (as all narcs are) codependent, I'm sure she was counter-dependant too and appeared component.

ps. things i forgot
X said darlin to the new girl and i love you both to her and his dog.
he used to say that to me.
it sounded like he meant it.
i know he cant love properly.
i thought- he didnt say it like that to me for a long time.
but he might have in the beginning.
he doesnt love this new girl- i just know it. The way they suddenly moved in together and i think he had her lined up and fooled for a while before he broke up with me.
The little b*.
So in the beginning- maybe he didnt what he said to me either.
I know he cant fully mean it- he can only love in his own way- being a narc.
but being all for yourself and manipulating is not loving properly.
I dont know if he can feel love in his own way for someone else.

It does hurt that *she*, his new girl who was a so called  friend to me, is now at home with the little dog who was also mine- while he is in his T session.
She should be at home with me.
Its like now she has a new mummy. But i was never her mother, i wouldnt want to force that title on here. She was adopted and she might not want anyone else to be labled her mother .
Its all just so weird and ...so weird.

Thats all.

"The world wants me to be alone, isolated, and to deal with my problems and any feelings i have myself. So thats what i have been doing ,and that is what i will continue to do.
Thats just the way it has to be for me...."

nope nope nope. the people here on this forum are part of that same world, and we all want you to be healthy & happy, and want you to have loving, happy and healthy relationships. i too am having a hard time dealing with the world and its expectations, i know it's difficult. and i'm sorry you feel so betrayed & alone. you don't need to stay in that feeling tho. keep talking, keep opening up, and be who you want to be! healthy, happy, loving and loved.  :bighug:

Hi Three Roses

Thanks for writing.
I am sorry you are also struggling.  :hug:
I hope that you will find happiness and support one day too.

I dont know how to be open. And i have know one to be open to. Im just not surrounded by those types of people, and sometimes, the forum ignores too, no matter how small i write.
it might come one day, but for today, it is not so.
Nothing will make it go away, only shoving back under the rug that is my being and dissociating from it.
I will feel better in a few days i hope. It seems at the moment to go in cycles, and today triggers and therapy triggered it but i was the one who triggered myself in therapy. I feel guilty but i can't help it.
maybe its the truth at the moment in my life, based in reality- the people who are around.
T said that maybe my dad just doesnt care about me, and she may be right. So i think ive attracted others like that.
Sometimes i just start invalidating myself and telling myself to buck it up and to be tough.
i really appreciate your support and i hope your ok... :hug:

 :bighug:

It seems at the moment to go in cycles

Me too.  Hang in there and be as kind as you can be to yourself, particularly when things are really rough.

Hey Radical.
I hope your doing ok (or not..thats ok too..but i hope your alright.)
:bight:

Its good that someone else understands the cycles.
Hang in there and be as kind as you can be to yourself, particularly when things are really rough.
Thanks a lot. Something i find very difficult when i feel this way. Thank you.  :disappear:

i agree about the cycles - they will come and go, but, i've found that as i continue in recovery, the cycles come around less often, and for a shorter period of time.

just a thought on the whole idea of the x fooling others:  i've struggled with that for about 6 months, and it rips me up sometimes.  my ex-husband narc has been fooling people forever.  well, me included.  a few years ago i discovered he was also a misogynist, that my daughter told him so. he and i (we were still in contact then) were talking about it, said he took it to the female therapist he'd been seeing. she told him no way, he'd been her client for a year and a half, she'd know if he was a woman-hater.  then he said to me 'i'm a really good liar'.

and, i think that sums it up for the narcs of the world - they are really good liars.  they know just what sorts of things to say and do that put them in a good light for the outside world, and even for those who know them more intimately, like a therapist.  since many, if not most, therapists don't know the true nature of npd (i've been a therapist for 25 yrs., didn't really know the ins and outs of it till it all hit me in the face in my personal life like a ton of bricks!   we sure weren't taught much, if anything, about this personality disorder, just a general 'self-absorbed, wants attention' kind of thing.), they can be easily fooled through no fault of their own.  as we bring this to their attention, i believe the more motivated and caring therapists will rise to the occasion and do some investigating.  and tell their colleagues.  just like with c-ptsd.  i had to explain the difference between this and regular ptsd to my own therapist just a few days ago - she's young and green, and there's no diagnosis for c-ptsd in the therapist's bible - the dsm.  so, she had nothing else to go on.  but she listened, and i think she learned. 

so, sienna, hang tough.  i know it sounds trite, but sometimes it's all we have.  just know that on this forum you are being heard and understood because we're going through much the same things, or have similar experiences.  and, i give you credit for venting it out here, even when you're feeling like no one is reading/listening.  yes, we are.  sometimes we're also going through something tough, and are hanging on by our fingernails as well, and just don't have the energy to deal with what someone else is going through.  but, that doesn't mean we're not still here.   we are. 

one thought that helped get me through the 'it's so unfair' thinking was about rape victims, and how often their perpetrators have gotten away with that violation, gone home to friends and family who would never guess what s/he was capable of.  and, i thought to myself, these victims have had to find a way to deal with a lack of justice or retribution, and if they can do it, then, by god, so can i.  i don't know if that helps you, i don't know where it came from, but i do know that since that thought swam through my head, my yearning for justice, fairness, and retribution diminished.  i thought i'd share in case it might help you.  best to you.  you're not alone.

Samagic7

i've found that as i continue in recovery, the cycles come around less often, and for a shorter period of time.
That is good to hear. Im very happy about that for you.

Oh my. Im so sorry to hear of what happened there with your narc.
That is really awful.  :hug:
It rips you up- yes, i understand it feeling like that.
Thank you for sharing your story. I know how frustrating it is.

Yes, just because his therapist is a therapist does not mean that she knows your X more than you do. You lived with him. Same for your daughter doo.
Not all therapists are experienced in narcissism, and narcs are so cleaver, they even fool therapists.
It is so creepy that he said to you that he was lying.
ah sorry- just read what your wrote next- woah, you are a therapist. That is so great.

we sure weren't taught much, if anything, about this personality disorder, just a general 'self-absorbed, wants attention' kind of thing.),
thats not cool. Do you think it depends what you specialise in?
But i would think that if itstraum work you do, then it seems crazy that you wouldnt be taught about how people can be after trauma- defences etc? the many different trauma responses.

the more motivated and caring therapists will rise to the occasion and do some investigating.  and tell their colleagues.
That would be so great.
Its so great that you explained cptsd to another therapist. I knew that it wasnt in the DSM and apparently therapists know it as being called multiple trauma.

Thankfully my T knows abut Cptsd and pete walker...now that i mentioned it to her, but she doesnt know about narcissism- well...she doesnt know the terms that the internet uses to describe what they do- their behaviours -
but i hope this doesn't mean that she wont be able to help me.
She might be familiar with narc stuff but not the terms.

so, sienna, hang tough.  i know it sounds trite, but sometimes it's all we have.  just know that on this forum you are being heard and understood because we're going through much the same things, or have similar experiences.  and, i give you credit for venting it out here, even when you're feeling like no one is reading/listening.  yes, we are.
Thank you.

Trigger Warning....
I posted about a sexual assault that happened after i left X very recently on the how are you feeling board and know one responded. I dont always want responses. Its just an outlet.
But at that time, i wished that i had a caring mother who could be there for me.
The lady at the refuge from the office wanted to know how i was and i ended up stupidly telling her.
She was so invalidating. So i just felt so alone and alone on this board.
It might have been triggering to others.

sometimes we're also going through something tough, and are hanging on by our fingernails as well, and just don't have the energy to deal with what someone else is going through. 
No, i totally understand, and thats what i thought.
I was just thrown and felt alone and uncared about because, people have responded a lot to other things ive written, but that, it felt like it was being ignored.
I never talked about it again...i wouldnt anyway. But T confirmed it was assault.

one thought that helped get me through the 'it's so unfair' thinking was about rape victims, and how often their perpetrators have gotten away with that violation, gone home to friends and family who would never guess what s/he was capable of.  and, i thought to myself, these victims have had to find a way to deal with a lack of justice or retribution, and if they can do it, then, by god, so can i.
Yes, exactly.
I hope you dont mind me saying this, but it seems to me, that you are invalidating your own pain when you say:

i do know that since that thought swam through my head, my yearning for justice, fairness, and retribution diminished.  i
I just hope that you are not stuffing your feelings.
I know that an important part of recovery is feeling this stuff. This stuff that you have never been allowed to feel.
I have barely started feeling it and i think i am comming out of denial.
Its ok to feel that you are angry, yearning for justice and retribution.
I have not let my anger out yet. I cant where I'm living. and its something ive always struggled with.
but i will only be able to let go of those feelings if i let them out.
i hope you dont think its bad that I'm talking about stuff on the board. and being honest here about how i feel.
i cant let this stuff just exist only in my head. ill go insane, and for once, I'm finally speaking out (on here) about how i really feel and about what really happened.
Here is the only place that allows me to, and the only place that i feel i can.
I am not wallowing in self pity. I'm just experiencing the unfairness of things that i never allowed myself to feel. Those with NPD do rape you mentally. The exploit you, emotionally and physically. They strip you bear and leave you like a bag of trash. At least that was my experience.

I hope you know what i am saying. I just thought you were discouraging me from feeling my anger and feelings of unfairness. Its to early for me to put away those feelings like i always did, now that i am feeling them, because i need to feel them in order to heal. Then i can truly move forward and not in a deniel coated way that i have used to survive my entire life.  :hug:

Somatic7, sorry, i just have to say,
maybe i went a bit crazy and misread what you meant by the ending of your post.
You might have just being encouraging.
I'm trying to trust my gut intuition more, but- i could have flashed back to another time where i was invalidated.
i am used to others saying that emotional and psychological abuse is nothing and that physical abuse is *worse*.
so if you didnt mean that, then I'm sorry ,and i hope i didnt trigger you.
forgot to put a trigger warning at the bottom.

i was absolutely not invalidating you in any way.  i've been there, been shushed, told not to dwell in the past, a million different ways of telling me that what i'm thinking or feeling just needs to be 'fixed' or 'forgotten'.  no, i struggled with thoughts of revenge, retribution, and justice for months, and it was driving me crazy.  i tried all kinds of things to diminish these thoughts and feelings, and could make some progress, but they kept intruding.  what i was saying was that i had the experience of having a flash of a thought about others who have had to go through situations and experiences (i just used rape victims as an example) where they haven't been able to have a feeling of justice or closure, and it suddenly occurred to me, and i'm only talking about me, personally, that there have been many people who have found a way to move on with their lives in spite of their inability to see justice done.  it was a very inspiring thought to me.  when this thought came to my mind, it created a transformation within me, and the negativity basically disappeared.  i didn't need to push it aside, it just wasn't there anymore, not to the crazy-making extent it had been.

that's not to say that those thoughts don't occasionally pop up every now and then, because they do.  but, within the idea of the cycles, they don't stay as long, they're not as venomous, and i'm able to accept more readily that things are the way they are, and i can't fix them to be the way i'd like them to be.  but, it was a moment of some sort of clarity for me that came out of nowhere, maybe of a spiritual nature, i don't really know.  at any rate, i'm just more at peace with what is than i had been.

and, thanks for your concern about me stuffing feelings.  i don't believe that's the case, because i'm still angry at times that it isn't different.  but, for some reason, it isn't as strong, and it doesn't last for as long.  and, i continue to write in a journal, and that helps me to be as honest as possible about myself, cause those feelings will come out when i write.  and, when they do, i go do something physical with them, like pound on my bed and yell obscenities!  maybe that doesn't work for everyone, but it helps me.  : )

so, sienna, i'm sorry if it came across in any way that i might be invalidating your feelings or thoughts about your situation. or trying to suggest that you should be able to cope differently than you already are.  i know that a lot of times the hurt and pain and suffering on a psychological level are much worse than what we might feel physically.  and, no, you didn't trigger me at all.  i'm just so glad that you are able to write it all out in this place, in a place where we really do care, where we can relate to your pain, the suffering, the struggle, the challenge of getting past such horrific wounding by another - maybe more than one.  that's why this is complex.  there are so many levels, each as valid as the next.   you are where you are in your process, and that's to be honored for what it is, and doesn't need to be compared to the process of anyone else.  i think you're doing a great job of using this forum for venting, for being vulnerable, for asking for help.  that takes real courage.  i will just say that i encourage you to keep coming back.  we're here for you. 

Hey Somagic7

Gosh, my reply to your post sounded really harsh. I just read it back, so I'm sorry about that.
And i think that i could have asked you if you though you could be invalidating your own pain, instead of phrasing it the way i did.
Sorry about that.

Im so glad i didnt trigger you, and your reply was lovely. Thank you.  :)

I think that you are absolutely right. There are others in the world who have not sought justice- or when sought- justice was not given.
(god. i thought you were saying to me to buck it up and stop talking because others have had to manage). Im so sorry i mis read a really nice and well meant message from you.
That is actually really ..whats the word? comforting? not comforting...but provides some hope that i will be able to deal with this too.
but, within the idea of the cycles, they don't stay as long, they're not as venomous, and i'm able to accept more readily that things are the way they are, and i can't fix them to be the way i'd like them to be. 
That sounds really good to me.
I guess angering and grieving will get all those feelings out.
I know that anger apparently can be hard to let go of. I guess it just takes time.
I am so glad that you dont think you are stuffing your feelings. I understand now.
Your anger might not be as strong or last for as long, maybe because you are letting it out?
Im so glad journaling helps you. It is a good outlet, and so is pounding on stuff and
yelling obscenities! 
haha, thats a funny image, but a good one.
It helps me too (the rare times i can go there if i am angry, which is rare. The anger is comming up so maybe i can heal it and these relationship patterns.

so, sienna, i'm sorry if it came across in any way that i might be invalidating your feelings or thoughts about your situation. or trying to suggest that you should be able to cope differently than you already are. 
Its ok. I might have just misread. And if it was written in that way, thats not what you meant. All is ok  :hug:

i know that a lot of times the hurt and pain and suffering on a psychological level are much worse than what we might feel physically. 
Im glad you understand this too.

i think you're doing a great job of using this forum for venting, for being vulnerable, for asking for help.  that takes real courage.  i will just say that i encourage you to keep coming back.  we're here for you.
Thank you. We are here for you too.  :hug:

there has been a long period of time in my life when i was numb about anger.  i didn't feel it, but felt sad instead.  i think anger was something neg. that i was taught not to show, so i transformed it into a more acceptable feeling.  i learned along the way that anger is just another emotion, is natural, and needs to be expressed, released, let out.  as my therapist told me, just don't hurt yourself or anyone else. 

there were 4 major people in my life who, i believe, are narcs - 2 husbands, my oldest daughter, and a therapist - and who harmed me, wounded me emotionally.  probably, about 2 years ago, i began getting in real touch with my anger, and i decided to draw the way my mind's eye saw these people.  whew!  i'm no artist, but i drew what they represented to me, how i saw them in my llfe.  the husbands had two faces (kind of like a picasso drawing!), each in an opposite direction, scary eyes, and lots of words of betrayal around them.  the therapist took on the aspect of a snake, with a forked tongue to represent the words she used with me to be manipulated and abused by her, and i wrote lots of words on that drawing as well.  my daughter took on the aspect of a vampire, large fangs with drops of blood dripping from them (she'd been sucking my blood for many years, in a manner of speaking), and lots of words for her, too.  (i am a word person, so putting words on those pictures was important to me).  i made copies of these pictures, about 10 each, and hung them around my workplace at home, just surrounded myself with representations of what i had been living with, attempting to survive under.  it took a few weeks of working in this atmosphere, constantly reminding myself of what these people had done to me, until i finally had enough.  one day, i took the picture of one of them down, took a nail file, put the picture on my bed (i use my bed for a lot of anger work!) and began stabbing and shouting.  what i believe i was doing with all that was admitting and accepting the power i had given these people, and by killing the pictures of them that i had drawn, i was killing that power, and taking my own back.  i didn't do them all in one day - it's pretty exhausting work!  and, it probably isn't for everyone.  but, it helped me a lot, not only to get in touch with that frozen anger i'd been holding inside, but to finally release it in a safe, non-harmful way.  it took several months for me to finish them all off, take down the pictures, tear them into pieces, and walk that whole bunch of garbage out of my house to the trash.  i had done this on my own because i didn't have a therapist at the time, so i'm not necessarily recommending that anyone else do this without therapeutic help.

after all this time, i'm discovering more layers of anger, and it's getting easier, and quicker, to get rid of it.  the cycles.  i still have a problem feeling angry at the time, but am working on that, too.   someone in this forum suggested i do inner child work, which i'm in the process of now.  i have learned that c-ptsd demands a multi-modal attack because it's, well, complex, not straightforward.  so, i'm coming at it from as many angles as i can.

i'm not suggesting this is something you must do, i'm just sharing an example of what has helped me.  i think different things are more useful to some people than to others, and, also, are helpful at different times and places on our healing journeys.  and we all must find what works best for us.

thanks for your support, sienna.  it is truly appreciated.  when i get stumped, i do post a question or problem and ask for help, advice, and/or suggestions.  this place has helped me a lot, especially in not feeling like i'm all alone or on my own.  and i'm so grateful you and everyone else is here for each other.  it's great!

Sanmagic7, thank you for sharing what helped you with your anger. I know you are still struggling accessing anger and that your still working on it.

there has been a long period of time in my life when i was numb about anger.  i didn't feel it, but felt sad instead.  i think anger was something neg. that i was taught not to show, so i transformed it into a more acceptable feeling. 
Yes, i understand this.
No feelings were allowed for me growing up, especially anger.
T said to me that its been so long, that it seems that other feelings such as sadness are comming out. The times i have expressed anger (alone), afterwards i cry and one time i was very anxious and ended up being physically sick.
So perhaps thats why you feel sad? Sure you can feel sad instead. I think i have this too if i am angry and can't express it. It comes out in tears.

i learned along the way that anger is just another emotion, is natural, and needs to be expressed, released, let out.  as my therapist told me, just don't hurt yourself or anyone else.   
:thumbup:

Im so sorry to hear that you were hurt by so may in your life. It must be very difficult with your daughter, and to be betrayed by your own therapist, - ugh. I am glad that you are still pursuing this journey, even though your therapist let you down.

Putting imagery and expression to these people and the feelings that you have regarding these people and how they treated you, how you feel as result of their actions and them being in your life, i think it sounds great, and very creative. I think that betrayal is a big part of Npd behaviour, and to express it through words and images sounds good. I think it would be good to put it on paper and make it more real as i think that it can eat you up inside.

Do you mind if i ask something?  Did you want to purposefully put the pictures around the house to remind you of what they had done to you? ... so that that would encourage you to feel anger that was blocked?

what i believe i was doing with all that was admitting and accepting the power i had given these people, and by killing the pictures of them that i had drawn, i was killing that power, and taking my own back. 
That sounds amazing.

i had done this on my own because i didn't have a therapist at the time,
I think thats very brave and very admirable that you wanted to access your anger and work on recovery, despite not seeing a therapist at that time.

Frozen anger is a good way to describe it. I guess it really does just stay in the body until its realised, and it can rear its head when triggered (in my own experience, but sometimes still cant let it out as the dissociative shutter comes up). I guess that means that, just because you might not feel it, it is still there. I always thought that getting angry was pointless, if you are not angry. But perhaps i am. I do feel it sometimes and a lot lately in regards to narc x, though i am now numb again but it still can pop up.

I didnt know that there were layers to anger.
i still have a problem feeling angry at the time, but am working on that, too.   
:thumb

Its great that you are doing inner child work.
Do you mind if i ask you, what the work involves? Im thinking that it might be more than talking to your inner child, and trying to comfort him / her.

i have learned that c-ptsd demands a multi-modal attack because it's, well, complex, not straightforward.  so, i'm coming at it from as many angles as i can.
Yes, i think you are right there. Do you have anyone to help you with it all? Such as a therapist?

About the support, any time...you are welcome.
You are helping me too. You sharing your experience, the words you use...help me to understand things and helps me to put words to things...and to also know that you feel those things too.
I agree, this forum is a great place. I hope you keep posting.  :hug:

ps. i realise that i have been spelling your name wrong...so, my apologies!

off to see my therapist now.  will answer your questions at a later time, not sure if today or tomorrow.  just wanted to let you know that you are not walking thru this storm alone!

aw, thank you Sanmagic7. They is so thoughtful.
I hope it goes well with your therapist. Hope you can take good care of yourself.  :hug:

hey, sienna,

hope your day is going well.  my session w/ my therapist was kind of trippy.  she's young, not really versed in trauma therapy, not familiar at all w/ c-ptsd, and she's mexican, here in mexico.  we're doing some work on my being married to a mexican man, cultural differences and such, and she's also getting enlightened on what kind of woman i am, and how the culture i was raised in, very sheltered, not knowing much of the world, male-dominated, lower-middle class was very much like the culture of my husband.  she was very surprised that all americans aren't as portrayed in the media, or who come here w/ their big houses and cars and gated communities.  she'll be able to write a book when we're done.   lol!

anyway, back to your questions.  looking back, i believe i put those pictures up in order to not only get myself out of denial about what kinds of people they were (this was before i knew the term npd), but also how really nasty, hurtful, and harmful they were to me. and, yes, looking at these pictures helped me stop making excuses for them, thus freeing up my anger.  ***i don't recommend anyone do this without their therapist.  and, sienna, you mentioned disassociation, which is a big red flag for doing this stuff on your own.  please, don't do it without therapeutic help.  this stuff works differently for everyone, at different levels, and in different ways.  ***

my inner child work has involved the visual, tactile, written, and spoken images and words.  i just came at it from every angle i could think of, whatever i felt had been missing from my parents that i needed as a child.  like, i started giving myself hugs every day.  that sort of thing.

yes, absolutely, i have help.  i have my therapist, and a massage therapist who specializes in pressure point therapy to release emotions, etc., that have been stored in my body.  i also have this forum, caring husband, and friends who listen to me.  i want to cover this from every direction i can.

well, sienna, i hope you are able to continue to move forward.  sometimes it's baby steps, sometimes a small leap here and there, sometimes even a step backward.  but, i think that the more we learn and understand, the cycles continue moving with more clarity and ease, and less backlash.  it's a process.  keep being patient with yourself, be kind to yourself, and treat yourself well.  i'm doing the same, thank you.  asking those questions of me was a level of validation, which i appreciate.  thank you for that, too.  and i hope any problems you've had with your therapist are getting ironed out, you're feeling more comfortable, and more able to trust your gut.  i think you're doing a really good job.

Hey Sanmagic7,

Im sorry that your T session was trippy.
I hope that she can help you even though she doesnt know about Cptsd, and not experienced in Trauma therapy.
Not being experienced in Trauma work is a huge red flag for me as aprently in order to work through you trauma/s with someone, it needs to be someone who knows about trauma, and how to help a client with trauma.
Hopefully she can learn about Cptsd. I have heard that therapists see it as multiple trauma, and my X's T said that his T said that Complex PTSD is an american term for it.
I hope you and your H can work on things if you have cultural differences and or similarities.
Its not surprising to me that your H has a similar culture to the one you was raised in, as i know we tend to unconsciously repeat familiar patterns, even if they are bad patterns.

she was very surprised that all americans aren't as portrayed in the media, or who come here w/ their big houses and cars and gated communities.  she'll be able to write a book when we're done.   lol!
Lol!

, i believe i put those pictures up in order to not only get myself out of denial about what kinds of people they were (this was before i knew the term npd), but also how really nasty, hurtful, and harmful they were to me.
Yes, i thought this might be the case, but trying to get it into your head how really nasty hurtful and harmful they were- umm, i think that is important and i never thought of that.

looking at these pictures helped me stop making excuses for them, thus freeing up my anger. 
Yay!

Was it bad for you when you did this with out your therapist? is that why you dont recommend doing this alone?
How come dissociation is a big red flag to not do this alone?  Could you explain what you mean by that?
I dont feel i could do this alone right now. I feel i am too blocked. I feel it would be like trying to force myself to feel things i dont feel.
I always thought that dissociation would mask the anger etc. (so there is no point doing this)..but it masks it so that it wont be as painful.
Do you mean, that if you are disassociating from pain, then you are not ready to experience that pain? So it would be too much to experience it?

Thank you for explaining to me what inner child work is about.
Im thinking now, that its probably very personal for everyone, and thank you for sharing something so persona. I didnt think it would be. I imagined you to be learning from a text book or something, but i know the real work isn't like that.

whatever i felt had been missing from my parents that i needed as a child. 
i started giving myself hugs every day. 
Aw. That is so great. I never even thought of doing that, but i like the sound of that.
The first time i met her *properly*, i hugged her, and felt so at peace, being with her and feeling what she felt for once. Its never that easy.
But my mother promised me a hug every day and never did it after saying that.  I need to give this to my inner child, especially as i never have hugs of other people.

I am so glad you have help.
I really want to try a massage therapist who uses pressure to realise emotions. Apparently acupuncture can do that but i think massage is what i need, and the one you see, sounds like they do two in one kind of.

Its amazing that you are trying so hard, and that you want to cover this from every possible direction. Being on the forum, is one.

well, sienna, i hope you are able to continue to move forward.  sometimes it's baby steps, sometimes a small leap here and there, sometimes even a step backward.  but, i think that the more we learn and understand, the cycles continue moving with more clarity and ease, and less backlash.  it's a process.  
Thank you.  i have heard that recovery involves taking steps backwards so we can revisit things and learn. it doesnt mean you have failed even though it can feel like it.

keep being patient with yourself, be kind to yourself, and treat yourself well.  I have another question, I'm sorry, you might not know the answer.
Do you have any idea how to care for yourself and how to treat yourself well, when your in a flashback, such as the *know body cares about me* flashback?
During those times, i dont care for myself. I dont care for me either.
Maybe the anger i feel towards others, I'm turning it in on myself instead of expressing it, because if i cared about myself and others actions didnt show that they did, i would feel indignant, enraged, it would be too much to handle. It doesnt help that I'm living with others where i cant express anger.
Maybe I'm abandoning myself like my parents did in the past, that created this thing in me that says that know one cares.
Man. writing this out helps me to see things more clearly.

I cant believe that asking you questions was a level of validation. You are very welcome. You deserve validation.
  thank you for that, too.  and i hope any problems you've had with your therapist are getting ironed out, you're feeling more comfortable, and more able to trust your gut.  i think you're doing a really good job.
Thank you. I will see how it goes. Last session went really well.
I hope your ok. How are you doing after your T session?
:hug:

so glad to hear your last session went well.  maybe you both are settling in, getting to know each other a bit more, and the fit is becoming more comfortable.  i sure do hope so.  i'm feeling fine after my last session.  she's learning more about me, what kind of person i am, and helping with our couple issues.  those aren't real big, usually, but have gotten to the point where i wasn't going to put up with any kind of disrespect any more.  that, to me, is also a form of abuse. 

as to helping me with the trauma part, happily i've got my therapeutic experience behind me, and i love doing research, so i've looked up how it is recommended treatment for this goes, and am kind of guiding her, at the same time i look to her for guidance with what i'm doing.  she's sort of a therapeutic back-up for me, very supportive, has been very good at listening to me, and is becoming more interactive, which i like in therapy.  all in all, it's going well, and i feel good when the session ends.

dissociation, to my mind, means that your conscious mind is not able to deal with the reality of your situation, whether it be what's going on physically or psychologically.  when the reality is overwhelming, some people freeze, go numb, or some people dissociate, just go somewhere else in their mind.  anyway, that's how i've always looked at it.

and, when i was doing these pictures, 2 of my friends who are also in the therapeutic field were concerned for me because of the power and impact imminent in what i was doing.  because of my own experience therapeutically, both personally and professionally,  i was able to do the picture thing at a slow enough pace where i didn't get overwhelmed.  but, that's me.  for anyone else, i believe it is safest to work on something like that with their therapist.  i live in a small mexican town, and there was no therapist available at the time, and i wanted to keep moving forward, and this method came to mind so i decided to give it a shot.  i was in contact with both my friends and my very supportive husband through the entire process - they were my safeguards - and i was ready to stop at any point where i felt it was going to be too much.  i also took a lot of breaks from working on this so as not to get overwhelmed.

i still do take a lot of breaks.  since i'm coming at this from so many directions, it can get to be a bit much at times, and i just need time to regroup, relax, and recuperate from the psychological onslaught.   i thank my experience for having a pretty good grip on what i can deal with, and the signals that i need to stop and take a breather.

as far as taking care of yourself during those emotional flashbacks, all i can say is that it gets easier over time.  as they become less intense and happen less often, your natural instinct to do what's best for you will overshadow those 'i don't care about me or my self'  thoughts.  time, patience with yourself,  and the knowledge that this, too, shall pass, have all helped me to weather those flashbacks until i can get back on a more even keel.

and, it sounds like you found writing to be helpful to you in making connections and realizations!  yay!  that's what it does for me.  i encourage you to keep it up.  i do journaling on a regular basis - sometimes it's general stuff, sometimes it's more specific, but all of it is helpful for me to see things more clearly.  looks like you just learned one more way to help yourself take care of yourself, not only in a general way, but also during those ef's.  keep going!  you're learning, and i think that's always a positive thing, something helpful that we can build on in a self-caring, self-nurturing way.

and, yeah, giving myself hugs feels really good.  i've even taught my therapist to give me hugs after the sessions.  it was unheard of to her before.  we live and learn, don't we.  keep up the good work. 

so glad to hear your last session went well.  maybe you both are settling in, getting to know each other a bit more, and the fit is becoming more comfortable.  
Thank you! (She shared something about herself the other day. I wonder if she is doing what Pete Walker said he would do in the article. I was glad to find out someitng about her life, and it measured me that she *wasn't yawnnig* like i thought she was and it eased my worry)  :)

I am so glad that your therapist is learning about you and helping you with your couple's issues.
Yes, i completely agree, being disrespected is abuse.
I hope you are not being disrespected by your partner...(?)..only answer if you are comfortable.

Its great that you are helping her. I hope you feel supported still.
it's going well, and i feel good when the session ends. - Im so glad!

dissociation, to my mind, means that your conscious mind is not able to deal with the reality of your situation, whether it be what's going on physically or psychologically. 
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Yes, i thought that too.
Do you mean that if you are feeling physical pain in your body, the conscious mind might not be able to handle it?

I think you are right about dissociation. I am a freeze type.
Do you think that doing what you did as a freeze type (with the pictures and reminders of your narc / s), it would crack through the dissociation and make me feel stuff? That i wouldnt be able to handle?
or do you mean, if i am not numb about something and am say, angry or sad however, i would just end up disassociating?
I'm wondering if i just wouldn't progress. Or, if the feelings / trauma would get further stuffed down...if its possible to go any further under the surface...
I am glad that you had the support around you. You deserve that. I dont have that, so maybe doing it alone isn't a good idea.

as far as taking care of yourself during those emotional flashbacks, all i can say is that it gets easier over time.  as they become less intense and happen less often, your natural instinct to do what's best for you will overshadow those 'i don't care about me or my self'  thoughts.  
Woah. ok. thanks.
T said that having others fill those needs to a degree that you didnt get met back then, is ok. This is new news to me.
I know you have to do a lot or most of it yourself.

I hope you keep writing up too.
What i find helpful also, is .. because theres know one to talk to, and i didnt talk to narc partner when we were together...but if i did talk a little...i would feel sad etc sometimes and i would feel an outlet. just saying something aloud is helpful to me..not sure why that can bring out emotion in me.
So now he's not here, and (i was never good at sharing * him anyway) i record myself on photo booth on my laptop and just speak about what is bothering me, or if I'm a flashback. I did it for the first time in an abandonment flashback last weekend. And i was able to cry.
Do you think I'm a weirdo now? Its just a way for me to sit with and release the feelings i feel i can sit with.

Is it ok that you asked your T to give you a hug after your sessions?
Ive heard lots of stuff about this, but i have heard, that - depending on the person and also depending on the therapists preferences of working..it can evoke flashbacks and feelings of needing your therapist. it could be a good thing, to bring up what you never had...to realise what you wish for.
I just had to say that, as i want you to know that those difficult feelings are a possibility.
It sounds really nice thought. I wouldn't mind a hug from mine. I know it would make it maybe more difficult to leave and would evoke more feelings of want and sadness.
Everyone is different. And if she did that, i would let her anyway despite having those feelings.

Thank you for all your support and encouragement. It means a lot. All of the same goes to you too.  :hug:

hey, sienna,

somehow it seems that you are sounding a bit stronger within yourself.  are you feeling that?  i hope so.  the reason it seems this way to me is because you are finding things that work for you, and are also finding the courage to share that - speaking out loud to yourself.  i don't at all think you're crazy for doing that.  this stuff works differently for everyone.  i'd never thought of that, but it makes sense to me, a lot of sense.  keep up the good work!  and, in my opinion, if it feels good and helps you make forward progress (and, of course, isn't hurting you or another) then go for it! 

when i spoke of dissociation with physical stuff, i was thinking of rape victims as an example.  i've talked to several people, who, when the sexual abuse was going on, they could feel themselves 'leave' their bodies, view what was going on from above or another part of the room, or just go completely numb.  it may have hurt physically, but it also hurt psychologically.  it was just that the entire event was overwhelming, and the person was not able to deal with it, not able to cope with the reality. 

i think if you want to explore some alternate methods of releasing your emotions (when you're ready, of course), it would be a good idea to talk to your therapist about that.  see what she says, if she thinks it's a good idea, if she thinks you're ready for it, etc.  sometimes a therapist will encourage a client to do something like that during a session.  that way the client is monitored and supported at the same time.  sometimes the therapist won't think it's a good idea at the time, and would want the client to wait for a later time, when there's a stronger sense of self and emotional stability.   these emotions have been trapped for a long time - to attempt to let them out at random is seldom a good idea, especially on your own.

disrespect from my partner - this has been an ongoing 'thing' between us for years.  part of it is a male-dominated cultural thing, part of it is what he learned by watching how his dad treated his mom, and his mom's acceptance of it.  i've just gotten to the point in my recovery where i'm tired of anything of that kind.  happily, he's agreed to couples counseling, and i have faith that all that stuff will get ironed out.

asking my therapist for a hug - i'm a hugger, have been for a long time.  i hug most everyone when i feel a good vibe.  as a therapist, i liked closing my sessions with a hug, if my client agreed (i always asked first).  i felt like it put a very warm closure to the session.  in this case, where my therapist is not a hugger, i, as a client, asked her, and she, believing that it's something positive for me (or i wouldn't have asked) agreed.  she still doesn't offer, but when i feel like a hug would feel good to me, would feel like a good way to close a session, i ask, and she is now more at ease with it.

i don't think there's anything wrong with asking for a hug from your therapist.  and, depending on your reaction, if it brings up something negative, that would certainly be something to talk about in your next session.  you would be able to explore those feelings, get to the bottom of why something neg. happened after a hug.  again, it's what you feel comfortable with. 

personally, i don't remember a lot of 'safe' or gentle touch while i was growing up, and it's something that i want on a regular basis.  many of my friends are in recovery of one kind or another, so hugging is pretty automatic among us.  i've read about how 'good' touch helps our bodies give off pos. enzymes or neurotransmitters or something (i'm not sure exactly) and that it's important for our physical and mental well-being.  when i'd hug my daughters, i'd say 'skin health!', and we'd hug and smile/laugh.  it was a really good thing for all of us.  so, again, what you feel comfortable with is what is important. 

i just told my husband today that i believe i'm feeling better, in a general sense of the word.  i've had a busy week, and, in the past, it would've kicked my butt!  but, i'm hanging in, this week, and that feels good.  so, it seems like everything is working as it should, progress is being made.  yay!  i wish that for you as well.  it's a good, good, good feeling!

keep taking care of you, sienna.  i'm doing the same.  i'm convinced it's possible to eventually put this behind us. 

Hey Sanmagic7

I dont know if I'm feeling stronger within. Maybe. Interesting that you point that out.
I think that you just get used to change...not used it it properly yet...but I'm used to the refuge.
There are challenges. So far, not any new ones. I hate them when they come , such as the social anxiety and not being able to leave my room.
The flashbacks and the down feelings after therapy for the rest of the week ive noticed come in cycles.
Sometimes i really dont feel strong. And i feel so alone.
I think it depends how things are going. I just have to believe that i will get myself through the bad times / flashbacks...and that i wont be crushed.
Been a good week, so maybe thats why I'm feeling stronger.
Thanks for pointing that out. You are very observant.  :)

I am glad that you dont think I'm crazy. That is just so validating and comforting, what you said.

Ah i see what you mean. I went numb a lot having sex with narc X. And if i need to release anger, i do go numb. In our arguments too, i would come out of my body the times that i couldn't handle i anymore and unintentionally ended up raging.

um that makes sense. Thanks for explaining about dissociation and trapped emotions. The emotions that are comming out are very hard to deal with, so that makes sense. If some are still trapped, there must be a reason. I do think its best to see what she thinks , when the time comes.

Im so sorry to hear that about your partner. Sounds like my narc X.
i've just gotten to the point in my recovery where i'm tired of anything of that kind.  h
I dont blame you. I feel the way too.
I really hope it can work out with you guys. I'm so glad he has agreed to go to counselling.

I do like the idea of a hug after sessions. It is interesting you saying it puts a warm sort of closure on the sessions. It can be cold...just leaving. Especially when you have been crying and ..oh...times up...bye.
and your left on your own, and its hard too when you have know one else in the world you can share your inner experience with.
It seems better..one time i had to sort out my face for crying so much, and she took her time in showing me where the bathroom was, putting the light on for me, looking at me directly and telling me to take care. All seems very caring to me form her.

Im glad your T and you see that hugging for you is a positive thing. Im glad that she took the time to consider how it might make you feel. Thats all i wanted- for you to be in safe hands and i hope you are.
I mean, therapy is largely or mostly about getting what we never did- if we are going by Pete Walkers relational style of therapy.

I dont think i could ever ask her for a hug, as she might say no, and she has never offered
The other session at the end, we had to leave the room we were in, so we sat in the waiting room so that i could pay her and she booked me in for next week in her diary.
Just sitting next to her felt close to me.  maybe my brain is wanting that and wanting her to want to be close to me, when maybe she doesnt feel like that at all. But it seemed to me that maybe she did not mind the closeness.
The take care, felt more...like she meant it.
And i was glad, but also sad and i know its because i wish i had a mother.

personally, i don't remember a lot of 'safe' or gentle touch while i was growing up, and it's something that i want on a regular basis.  many of my friends are in recovery of one kind or another, so hugging is pretty automatic among us.
Thats so sad. I relate to that. Its great that your friends and you can hug.

i never thought i needed hugs like most. But maybe X was super huggy and sex came after a lot of the time, so its like the hug wasnt always genuine.
I dont crave hugs. But when i think that i havent been hugged by anyone for a long time...it makes me sad.
ive heard that you can wilt and die (or is that only babies?) with out hugs.

when i'd hug my daughters, i'd say 'skin health!', and we'd hug and smile/laugh.
aww. thats so nice.

i just told my husband today that i believe i'm feeling better, in a general sense of the word.  i've had a busy week, and, in the past, it would've kicked my butt!  but, i'm hanging in, this week, and that feels good.  so, it seems like everything is working as it should, progress is being made.  yay!  i wish that for you as well.  it's a good, good, good feeling!
Im so glad to hear that. I hope you are able to rest when you need to.
I was just going to ask at the top how you are doing.
Thank you. I hope you continue to keep making progress. Proud of you.  :hug:
keep taking care of you, sienna.  i'm doing the same.  i'm convinced it's possible to eventually put this behind us.

hey, sienna,

two thoughts while i was reading your post.  one about hugs, the other, about, well, hugs.  but from different angles.

what if you asked your therapist,  as a roundabout way of getting the information without putting yourself in jeopardy of being refused, what she thinks of hugs?  just when there's a break in the conversation or something, you could say something about that you've heard from others that hugs are valuable, and what does she think?  you'd get an answer from her, and it might open the door to you being able to ask if she thought the two of you having a hug at the end of the session would be a good idea, or something that she'd be comfortable with.   that way, you're not putting yourself directly in the path of a 'no'/rejection, even if she doesn't go for it, but it might lead to you being able to get one at the end of the session after all.  just a thought.

the other thought, and i don't know where you live, or what kinds of resources are around you, but are there any support groups in your area you could become a part of?  most places have 12-step meetings of one kind or another, and co-dependents anonymous (CoDA) might be a good fit.  i've been to a lot of these types of groups, from alcohol, to family, to CoDA, to overeating, and they all basically work the same way.  most of them i've encountered are very warm and welcoming, people there are at different levels of recovery, and they end in hugs.  it could be a place for you to not to feel so alone, while getting some real support from real people.  often there's someone who greets people at the door, and that person is kind, caring, and welcoming, glad to see you, sincere and genuine.  all my experiences have been positive, even tho going the first time is always scary - to everyone!  so, you're not alone in that, either.  again, just a thought.

thanks to you for your support, sienna.  you seem to be a very kind, caring person, and i like that.

i got a lovely massage last night, and it felt great!  it's the first time in years that i was able to tolerate a full-body massage.  my body has been so whacked out that even the leg massage that comes with a pedicure used to reduce me to tears from the pain.  it's getting healed, tho, a little at a time.  yay!!!

my husband and i went for a couples' session yesterday, and after a lot of b.s. and posturing on his part (macho man syndrome, i think) he finally turned it all around at the end of the session and said he's be willing to see her and work on his anger issues.  big relief for me.  that's the fount of the disrespect - he'll get angry or frustrated with someone, and he'll turn that anger onto me.  so, hopefully that's going to get fixed.  another yay!

in the meantime, i keep having my funerals (i think i told you about them) and grieving my losses.  today my funeral, what i wrote about, was for all the anger at my narc ex that, for my own sanity and peace of mind and well-being, i have to let go.  i know that anger, and i've had plenty of it, pounded my bed many, many times, wrote volumes about it, the pictures, etc., has been going on for years.  but i believe i'm stuck like a gerbil in one of those treadmill things, and keep running the same thing thru my mind over and over, not getting anywhere, and really not doing myself any good any more.  so, i've got to get off that treadmill, or i won't be able to continue moving forward.  that's how i see it, at least.  i know you've been concerned about me stuffing my anger, but this feels more like mourning the death of it.  it's just not useful anymore, so i'm saying good-bye to it.  i've got other things to do with my life now, especially since i'm feeling better, and just ruminating on this crap doesn't allow me to do something productive. 

with that, i'll take my leave.  keep on keepin' on, sienna.  i think you're doing good.  again, for some reason, just the tone you're writing in is sounding stronger to me than a week ago. 

Sanmagic7, hi!
Im so sorry its taken me a while to get back to you.
I havent had time...though i wanted to, as every time i had internet i had to use it for other stuff and its hard to type out a long message on my phone.

How are you doing?

Thank you so much for your suggestion.
what if you asked your therapist,  as a roundabout way of getting the information without putting yourself in jeopardy of being refused, what she thinks of hugs?
That is a great idea. I think I'm just worried it would open up old wounds- wanting what i cant have.
I think that she might read into what i really mean and she would be accurate in her interoperation if i round about asked her too. But maybe one day i will be able to do it.
Why did i never think of asking this way?

And thank you for suggesting about support groups. That might be helpful. Im glad they helped you.
aw. thanks. You are very welcome to my support.

i got a lovely massage last night, and it felt great!  it's the first time in years that i was able to tolerate a full-body massage.  my body has been so whacked out that even the leg massage that comes with a pedicure used to reduce me to tears from the pain.  it's getting healed, tho, a little at a time.  yay!!!
Thats so great, I'm really glad to hear that. Do you think that the toxins or the ..smoatic symptoms in your body are being released through the message?

Trigger Warning ...


I was really worried that that would happen, going to counselling with your husband. I dont know if he is a narc or had narc traits, but they can twist things around and even fool the therapist.
Sorry if thats a bit blunt.
Im so sorry to hear that he turns his anger onto you. That must not feel very good at all.  :spooked:
Hugs to you.  :hug:

I like how you call them funerals. I call mine episodes.
Its so amazing that you are doing this work, that you are going through it. I know how hard it is.
Omg. Exactly how i feel. Same reminders over and over again.a
and it was like that with narc x when i was with him...only i realise now that it was also him.
Now the flashbacks are comming from external experience.
I do believe and T does too, that we need to purge this stuff out of ourselves, no matter how long it takes or how much it comes round over and over again. It does suck though and I'm sure you relate to wanting it all to just be over?
.  but i believe i'm stuck like a gerbil in one of those treadmill things, and keep running the same thing thru my mind over and over, not getting anywhere, and really not doing myself any good any more.

With your anger/ rage...i have heard that other feelings can appear, but the anger can still seep out from time to time. I think that it just needs to be expressed.
Yes, i understand that you might need to mourn the death of anger. Anger is more powerful, righteous anger that should be felt, that you are entitled to feel.
Its like self protection in a way, although scary and apparently, it comes first most of the time, because it is the easier emotion for people to feel.
I underhand you saying that its just not useful.

Yes, i hope you are ok keeping on keeping on. Im sure you have much courage- which is very much needed i think.  :hug:

hi, sienna,

no need to apologize, never need to apologize.  we all have other things in our lives that need tending to.  and, if you don't show up at all, it could be for any number of reasons, and that wouldn't be a concern for me, either.  sh*t happens, as they say.  i would not take that personally.  it might be that it's just time for you to move on.  even if it's abruptly.

the reason you didn't think of a particular thing is because we can't think of everything!  none of us!  even tho i'm a therapist, i'm going to a therapist because i can't think of everything i need, i can't always help myself.  i've been able to think of a lot of things that help me, like my funerals, that my therapist may never have thought of, but she was the one who suggested that when i finish with my funerals, i tear them up and throw them away.  and, when she first said that, i burst into tears (which tells me that she really struck a nerve, and it was something that i needed to do).  it just seemed so final to me, and i wasn't quite ready to look at that.   4 weeks later, the idea of tearing up what i'd written about everyone and everything i've lost or needed to say good-bye to seems like a relief, like it'll finally be over, out of my life, and i can move on from it all.  i'm waiting until i have all my funerals finished before i do the tearing and tossing,  i want to do it in my therapist's office, and it'll feel like one giant purge.  it sounds good to me just writing about it!

i absolutely know that so much poison has been released already from my body through massage and the pressure points.  absolutely!  i've been working on the physical side of all this for at least 15 years, and, while any kind of healing touch has been helpful, and has moved me forward, it wasn't until this year that i was ready for the pressure point releases.  gallons of tears, so much stored emotion released - i could tell when it was sadness, when it was anger, i could feel the emotions themselves - so much physical pain went with it, too.  but, the stress and tension had been sitting within my muscles for around 30 years, just stored there, and it took a lot of strength for her to push on those points to release what had been stored within.  it was awful, very difficult, on one level, and i could only take about 15 min. of that kind of pain at a time.  but, i kept at it, put myself thru it because i somehow knew that the only way out was through.  and i'm now, finally, seeing incredible results.  but, this, too, has been a process, difficult and painful at times, but necessary.  and i'm really glad i've been doing it.  i haven't felt this healthy and strong physically in years.

as far as my anger goes, most of the time it's been the emotion beneath others.  it's been the hidden emotion for me, and was usually covered up by sadness.  being sad was very easy for me to feel, but being angry was not.  now i'm finally getting in touch with my anger, and my sadness is leaving me.  i'd cry at every sweet, kind, loving thing i'd see or hear about.  with my funerals, and my inner child work, i'm sorting thru that sadness, releasing the anger that's been trapped forever, and i'm not so weepy all the time.  and that feels great!

i'm quite sure my hubby is not a narc, just that he's learned over the years to misplace or displace his anger/frustration onto something/someone (like me, or his ex, when they were together because we were convenient and safer).  his dad did the same thing with his mom, so i don't doubt he learned to do it from that.  and my therapist  is being very careful to check in with me about any little incidents that might be happening with him.  so, she's staying on top of it, which i'm glad about.

so, my life is going really well.  i'm feeling a positive momentum, a shift of some sort in the past week, that was noticeable in a positive way for me.  dang, at last!

and, sienna, when you are ready, you'll make the moves you need to make.  sometimes we need to push ourselves, sometimes we need to let our selves push us.  but, it's your call to make.  i hope you're feeling like you're making progress, too.  that's our goal, isn't it?  to make progress through this jungle?  keep on keepin' on.  and, hang tough.  you'll find exactly the right amount of courage that you need at the time you need it.

Sanmagic7 I thought I replied to your post but it's not here. Don't know why. I hope you are ok

Just writing again. I have know one to tell and no comfort.
Trigger warning

When I'm talking in therapy, "this is so self absorbed" comes to mind.
I struggle to tell her things but, can with some things, because I know I'll be more upset about not doing so later if I don't.
Sometimes I feel guilty for talking - like today.

During the sesh I thought that-
I want to know how she is - I want to hear about her world and not talk so much about mine.
Maybe it's avoidance,
It's weird staying in your own world by talking about stuff from your own world in therapy.
Maybe I want to fill my head with other stuff if there is no urgent problem- to escape myself.

I hate feeling guilty and bad afterwards. It feels restricting and like I should just crawl into a hole and make myself invisible wiith that shame.

After sesh sometimes I just go about the motions - my head in another place . I go to cafe to pee and shop if I need to but nothing too stressful,
I'm in my own world.

A person I know from volunteering said hi to me after Therspy in town on my way home.
I heard  someone call me but I couldn't hear correctly if they have called my name and because of  my vision problem I could not see where the person calling me was.
She said that I was in my own world and I told her that I just come out of an appointment.
I didnt tell her it was therapy.
However, when I got back home I realised that she might not have known that i didnt see her when i heard my name, so maybe thats why i appeared like i was in a dream world.
Theres so much people dont know about me, including my visual impairment which i was made to feel very ashamed about as a child, so i hide it when i can, its just her- another trigger.

She asked how I was doing - really nice, but it's a question in which I freeze up and don't know how to answer .
She asked where I was living but I can tell her Im at a refuge and she asked where all my stuff was and I told her it's a friends house. (the only one friend i have who i appreciate a lot)
She wanted to know when my parents were and i just said up north.
She asked if I was staying here and I said yes
She said it must be hard going for a break up and have nowhere to live and having to sort out somewhere new to live.
She said I'm just getting on with it  and I think she thought that it was amazing and strong of me to be getting on with it
The thing that really got to me is that she said it's good that have such supportive friends
This is not true but I couldn't tell her that
I have lots all friends due to narc X.

People just throw out all sorts of statements and expect them to be true for me in a very generalised way
I really want to tell her that I'm living in a refuge to tell her what my partner had done to me and I want to tell her that he has ruined it with me with my friends (who were not supportive anyway)  and I don't have them any more.  I never had them anyway. just now, i cant even go round to theirs for a break from the refuge or from emotional pain.

But it would've been too long and complicated to explain and I couldn't deal with the fact that she might not believe me even though I understand why she  might find that hard to believe.
I worried that she thinks that I am the one problem that I made my ex so happy that I am the narcissist, especially as it doesnt seem like i am grieving the break up- which I'm not, due to dissociation that just automatically kicks in every time people leave.

This might not have been true -  I don't believe anything that My X said anymore.
But he said that before he broke up with me, this lady i saw today in town,
said to him that he seem so much more happier that day -
and that was when we haven't been talking for a while.

I thought for ages in my head until I thought about it today that maybe she thinks that I made my ex really really unhappy and i worry she thinks I'm too miserable and that i was dragging him down.
-especially after seeing me after the session today in a daze and probably not looking the happiest ive ever looked.

But maybe she was commenting to my ex but he seemed happier and maybe she hadn't thought that it was to do with me. maybe the comment was purely about him, if in fact, she said that. X could have said that the day he broke up with me, because he wanted to bring me down.

I don't have supportive parents or friends and I have no choice but to do this on my own
So people say well-meaning things but they really hurt and at the time I just think, oh no yet another question that I can I can't answer truthfully and yet another statement that stabs me in my heart like a knife -not to sound too dramatic.

Underneath the numbness I think I feel anger and sadness at having to do all of this on my own. I have no help or support not even a emotional support which is the most important thing.
Maybe I'm just going about the world and everyone else thinks that I do have support and I'm fine, when reality is is that I'm not I'm struggling and I'm at times very lonely.

I wish that there was a way that I could sort of tell the truth and i wish that others would not make statements such as- you have supportive friends, you'll be fine- they DONT KNOW.  So how dare they assume.
People dont think that thats not the case for everyone, unless they've experienced otherwise. But its annoying and makes me feel like i have to go along with their fake naritive- its fake for me- as what stye are saying is not true.

I just feel like I talk too much in the session and I feel bad for being so open about events that happened to me.
It's so embarrassing for me to talk about anything sexual and I don't know why it's so hard to sit there and talk even when I imagine in my head before I go to the session I really frustrates me
But when I talked with a little emotional about things that didn't happen that could be possible indicators of what we are going to it seems silly and she might think that I'm crazy for  bringing it to her and talking about it

About this thing in T we are trying to figure out, i realised in session today, that telling her the bits i do remember which might point to something that might have happened in the past-
she probably wont tell me what she thinks- its up to me to figure it out.
So why am i reading her the list of memories i wrote?
Maybe i just have to bear what i wrote in mind and keep it to myself for me to figure out.
I got the impression that she was tired today, and i dont know if my feeling that she was bored, is my intuition or not.
I think I'm just frustrated cos i want answers and i want to know the truth, though i might regret wanting that if i find out.
Maybe that's why am feeling a bit bummed out.
I feel that I could have used the session better and discussed things that happened this week instead.

It makes me feel better posting about things like this instead of sitting with  it on my own so thanks for reading.

Edited this and properly this time!
just gonna add- i dont think she is familiar with narcissistic abouse. I mentioned that i think my boundary problems are to do with my narc mother, and mentioned narc abuse-
and she just said *Thats a different type of abuse*
and i was thinking, yeah, i know, and what I'm saying, is that i thin that my boundaries are bad due to that, not the other thing we were talking about..becawuse I'm not sure it happened.
I dont want her to underestimate the power that narcissistic abuse on a person, and how it destroys the *victims* boundaries.

I dont think she knows i have been narcissistically abused - by not just my mother, but by three other people since then, in adulthood, maybe four.
I thought, there is nothing to talk about, i have no feelings about my X, I'm just disassociated abut it all, but, maybe if she was knowledgable about narc abuse-
she would talk about it with me??
i dont know. I feel it is being overlooked, and i dont know how to work on the loss from this relationship while i am so numb...
i know grief etc will come in time, so she cant force it. And i need to keep functioning to get housing sorted. But its like, this big life changing thing happened and we talked a little about it, but ..not that much. Maybe she's taking my lead.

Im so confused.

I could have written most of what you wrote.  More 12 months ago.  Different circumstances, different place, different people, different personalities dealing with it all, but there is so much in this condition that is the same.  I find that comforting and I hope you can too.  It feels like we are, but we are not alone.

It's frustrating, not being able to have friends in real life that we can be open with about our lives.  What I've come to is that I'm not up to that yet anyway.  I'd be so afraid of blowing it, and being rejected.  It would distort everything.  And it takes a long time to build trust, get to know people, come to feel easy with them.  I think that's one of the reasons I've ended up in relationships with toxic people, because they appear to bypass the hard work, and there are almost instantaneous rewards that feel similar to being in relationships of genuine closeness, without going through the time, awkwardness, and work to get there.  Unfortunately, it's all just a very dangerous illusion.

A big issue for me has been accepting love, help support etc. from (healthy) others - how afraid it makes me feel, how unnatural.  I've had therapists who ended up telling me their problems.  Believe me, that is not therapy.  I don't blame them.  I can be so damn good at diverting attention away from myself.  Therapy is the one situation in life that really is all about you.  It has to be.  I've disciplined myself to keep a strict boundary and it's still hard, but it doesn't work any other way.  If your therapist can't manage the feelings your issues arouse in her, she shouldn't be in the job.  It's likely she can.  If she can't, you need to see someone else.  Can you repeatedly let the feelings go, not force them away, but watch them from a distance, knowing they are just feelings not reality?  Give your therapist the chance to prove you can trust her to be there for you and look after her own problems, or worst case scenario, find she isn't and look elsewhere?  It's a no-mans-land being unable to trust and unable to allow yourself to find out one way or another.

Anyway, thinking of you Sienna.  Again, I'm off for a walk.  I don't really fancy it because it's bloody cold and it looks like it's about to rain and maybe snow, which is why I need to get out while I still can.

Hugs.

Hey radical,

My..I could have written most of what you wrote. 
I am so sorry this happened to you as well. Hugs,  :hug:
Yes, no matter what the name of the condition, or as i like to call it, the *trauma response*, they are very similar.
Im sorry if your friends left you (it sounds like they did)
This abuse is vicious and cruel and carries on after the relationship has ended.

Oh god yes, I would be so afraid of blowing it too and being left.
To me, it is easier when you are with, say, self absorbed others, who always talk about themselves.
I dont feel i have to try as hard. And if i hurt someones feelings or mess up, it doesnt matter, cos they've already ignored me, and or, hurt my feelings.

Toxic people-
they appear to bypass the hard work, and there are almost instantaneous rewards that feel similar to being in relationships of genuine closeness, without going through the time, awkwardness, and work to get there. 
That is so true. My X had me in bed immediately.

Im sorry you had therapists who ended up telling you their problems. Not good.
I take the attention away from myself too. Its automatic. People are like, how are you, and I'm like, I'm fine thanks, how are you? what have you been up to?

I don't blame them.  I can be so damn good at diverting attention away from myself. 
Yes, i see what you are saying. I think that a sign of a good therapist, is one who knows what you are doing, and who can stop it from happening.

Therapy is the one situation in life that really is all about you.  It has to be.  I've disciplined myself to keep a strict boundary and it's still hard, but it doesn't work any other way.  If your therapist can't manage the feelings your issues arouse in her, she shouldn't be in the job.  It's likely she can.  If she can't, you need to see someone else.  Can you repeatedly let the feelings go, not force them away, but watch them from a distance, knowing they are just feelings not reality? 
So great that you are reminding yourself of the boundaries.
And thank you for your suggestion. I felt the feelings. I had a few little tears.

Thank you for thinking of me.
How was your walk? is it winter where you are right now in this globe we live on?
Its summer here in the uk.

Hugs.

San magic7
Thanks. How are you doing?

Do you mind if i ask how things are going for you, and with your funerals?
I hope that you can do the purging with your therapist. It would be nice i think, to have someone to share that moment with. The moment when you are taking a step, to move forward. The moment when you have completed grieving, and angering, over who and what you have lost.

Does your body feel lighter, now that the poison has been released?
My back is so sore right now. Its just so painful and I am dying for a massage, its just money, and I'm afraid of going. I always worry that they will never be good enough, or long enough.

as far as my anger goes, most of the time it's been the emotion beneath others.  it's been the hidden emotion for me, and was usually covered up by sadness.  being sad was very easy for me to feel, but being angry was not.  now i'm finally getting in touch with my anger, and my sadness is leaving me.  i'd cry at every sweet, kind, loving thing i'd see or hear about.  with my funerals, and my inner child work, i'm sorting thru that sadness, releasing the anger that's been trapped forever, and i'm not so weepy all the time.  and that feels great!
That is so great to hear!
It makes sense, because underneath anger, is sadness and grief. so getting rid of your anger would release sadness...and you might cry at a lot of things, but then eventually, maybe the tears would lessen.
im not sure if that is happening to me since being at the refuge, and having flashbacks when this little boy is crying.  It seems that you get used to it, and i wonder if I'm just disaodociatedly used to it, but maybe i did get some feelings out of me through crying.

Im so glad your T is careful to check in with you about your partner.
I hope everything is going ok with you and your hubby.

so, my life is going really well.  i'm feeling a positive momentum, a shift of some sort in the past week, that was noticeable in a positive way for me.  dang, at last!
:yeahthat:

you'll find exactly the right amount of courage that you need at the time you need it.
Thank you. I will be waiting for this to happen, and I'm sure that when it does I will remember you saying this. I feel that this has already patly happened, as ive needed a lot of courage lately. I worry I'm just disassociated however due to X leaving and that its not real courage.
:hug:

Just had another session with T.
Sometimes i don't like keeping things to myself, but i don't share, so thats why i write here.
Nothing wrong. everything's great with sesh and her.

Because of the limited time, it seems quite clinical to me.
I go in with a list of stuff from the week i want to discuss, but maybe in doing that, i feel I'm missing out on the relationship thing.
It is all about me. And therapy is for me.
Maybe i want to feel more of a connection...like i did before, but maybe i only feel this *conneciton* (which could just be in my head), in times of crisis, when it feels that she is here and that she is helping to *save me*.
She helps all the time though, and today.

Maybe I'm just numb. I have been thinking a lot lately about how I'm numb.
I feel that my responses to others pain is lacking in something.
I think I'm realising how much i freeze. I cant think quickly enough to say something and even though its not my fault, maybe its normal that i don't always feel heart rendering pain when hearing about others mis fortune.

I wanted to tell her about the text from my dad, as i told her about narc mums message (although, on second thought, i didnt even get to the end of that).
But she said that time was up, (end of sesh) and i know that it must be an emotional flashback,
because i know that its not her fault that sessions have to end, and i know that my feeling isn't fitting the circumstance.
It suddenly popped into my head, this mantra that is repeated over and over about everyone in the world, and it was,
*She doesnt care, she doesnt care about me that much, she doesnt care that i couldnt go trough dads text*.
Its like a feeling of disappointment, and I'm left hanging, and often after sessions, i don't know what to do with myself. I don't want to go back to normal routine. I just want to stay there with her.
Thats an emotional flashback right??
I know its illogical, yet these feelings pop up from know where.

It happened with the narc, but she was more abrupt. We were talking and she suddenly got up and said, right, enough, i cant talk about any more.
I went upstairs and exploded in hysterical crying and wanted to self injure.
I would have if she hadn't have heard me and came up.
Its like, an emotional abandonment reminder perhaps?
(She even said once that she enjoys sessions with me, finds me interesting, and that if she could have longer with me she would.
Just wanted to write that. )
Decided to treat myself to a starbucks drink after the sesh.
Thanks for listening.

I used to bring a list of things to T. Workers in the mental hygiene industry generally do not appreciate clients bringing in lists of issues to be discussed. The only list they care about is your list of meds. Like you, I require memory prompts. I go over my lists while waiting for my appointment. I'll pick one word from each issue to write on my cheat sheet leaving space for notes as the session goes on. Keep track of the passage of time. When the T tries to sidetrack you, talk over her. She already thinks your unhinged, who cares if she thinks your rude. Why not practice being rude to some of the people at the "Refuge." Be sure to smile when you practice rudeness. That will keep them guessing. You need some kind of protection kiddo!

Hey Danaus

Maybe my message didnt convoy what i meant.
The narcissist lady abruptly got up and said enough.
I think a nerve was hit even though she continued the convo, i didnt pressure her.
that wasnt T who said that so abruptly
She just said gently that time is up, and she is always gentle in the way she says it.

She does interject- T that is- she never talks over me, and I'm thinking, times ticking...but i know we have to discuss back and forth...and i hope that she is not wrong to help that way. its not too much either.
she lets me do the talking- as she should.

what makes you think that T already thinks I'm unhinged?
i was looking at boundaries and trust ing my intuition today. If i need to be rude i will try, if the point doesnt get across.
i hope to put up healthy walls.
thanks . i hope your ok. your def not alone in needing the memory prompts. i go blank when I'm talking even with the prompts so i def need them.

You are right to remind me not to engage in mind reading. Perhaps its just me that gets that vibe off all workers in the mental hygiene industry. I go to group T tomorrow. Time to pick the key words that will jog my memory.

therapy is so personal, but it is absolutely your time.  that's what you're paying for, to have time to vent, explore, problem-solve, realize, express emotions, all in the context of a safe place with a supportive person.  feeling guilty about taking that time for you is something that a lot of us go through, but, from personal experience, it gets easier with practice.  i hope you stay with it, sienna, hang tough, keep going.  these lapses of forward momentum (if that's what it feels like) are, i think, normal parts of the process.  we go back and forth, up and down, sometimes sideways, sometimes stuck. 

i'm on therapeutic hiatus for the summer.  it's just too hot here in my little desert town, so i probably won't be back to see my therapist until sometime in oct.  until then, i'm still doing my funerals (the other day, i held a funeral for the childhood i needed but didn't have.  i didn't have narc parents, but they just weren't able to give me what i needed - they simply didn't know, they gave me what they could in the way they could, but i needed something different.  so, i had a funeral, wrote all the things that came to mind about my childhood and what i had missed, especially emotionally.  it was a very emotional funeral, but i was able to release a lot of sadness, made some realizations, and was able to write about those as well.  it was very cleansing for me, and i'll keep doing these while on my hiatus.  they are therapeutic in their own right.

meanwhile, i'm also still working with my massage/pressure point lady to release the emotions in my body.  i've discovered that i've held a lot of fear inside because i just wasn't 'allowed' to feel afraid while dealing with my daughter, ex-husband, and that terrible therapist.  it was quite a shock to me, quite a revolutionary explosion of feeling.  and, of all places, i'd been holding it in my feet!  like, i'd pushed the fear down so far in order not to notice it or let it hinder me from what i'd had to do to try to make an impossible situation possible to live in.  so, progress continues, even if in unorthodox ways.

sienna, above all, may i suggest that you continue to be kind, gentle, and patient with yourself.  this is tough stuff.  it sounds like you are being able to differentiate between your narc's words of rejection and your therapist's words of time boundaries being reached.  two very different things, and i hope you give yourself credit for recognizing the difference.  small steps, perhaps, but important nonetheless.  you are not alone.  we're still here, both with you and for you.  hugs to you.

danaus,

it sounds like you've had some truly neg. experiences with therapists/counselors and such in the mental health domain.   i'm really sorry to hear that, but i can relate.  one of my narcs was a therapist, and i was involved with her for 8 yrs. in various capacities, including client, best friend, and employee.  she was my first contact with therapy, and i'd believed every word she'd told me.  i'm much wiser now, and, in fact, am a therapist myself.  one of the greatest gifts i got from her is how NOT to be a therapist!!!  : )

i do sincerely hope you have a therapist now who is sincere, caring, and ethical.  there is so much more to us than our meds, our diagnoses, and our dysfunctional ways of thinking.  we do so much that is on point, and i think we sometimes forget to give ourselves credit for that.  things like holding down a job, driving a car, problem-solving (i think bringing memory notes is a wonderful idea!), buying groceries, getting dressed - all the little things that we do to continue on with life in the best way we can.  and, best of all, thinking enough of ourselves to ask for help, to share ourselves with others, to respond to others in a caring way.  those are all magnificent qualities, and i think too often we take that kind of stuff for granted.  but, i do believe the best of us is what continues to fight for our right to have a good, healthy, happy life.  perseverance, determination, intelligence, courage - these are all qualities that we contain that keep us moving forward.  keep going!  i think you're doing just fine. 

Hey Sanmagic7

Thanks a lot for your really nice post. Im sorry if its late, i just havent checked here for a while. :(
Im so glad you let me know how you are doing. I hope you didnt mind me asking

I am staying with it. I don't want to ever leave her, and i don't want to stop therapy.
Sometimes i don't feel guilty.
I like how you put it into that context- that it is something that we all struggle with- taking time for ourselves. Of course!! I didnt see it like that, but now I'm thinking that its obvious, os thanks for that.

I really hope that your therapeutic hiatus goes well for you and that the break does you good.
Its pretty hot in the uk here now too, but I'm sure its not as hot as where you are.

It sounds like you are going deeper with grieving.
Narc parents or not, parents are incredibly damaging to their children when they do not parent as they should.

so, i had a funeral, wrote all the things that came to mind about my childhood and what i had missed, especially emotionally.  it was a very emotional funeral, but i was able to release a lot of sadness, made some realizations, and was able to write about those as well.  it was very cleansing for me, and i'll keep doing these while on my hiatus.  they are therapeutic in their own right.
Well, thats amazing. Its sounds like you are doing so well with doing this. Do you mind if i ask, if , after your funerals, is that it for you? as in, is your grieving over? Are your funerals what you do at the end as a way of letting go after a long time of grieving?

About your fear- Woah! How interesting. How did it feel to release the fear? Fearful?

Thank you for being so kind and for suggesting that i try to be kind and patient etc with myself.
I think i needed to hear that, as i have forgotten that lately and have been being hard on myself.
oh, and, i honestly never took the session ending and her telling me that, to mean anything other than what it was- and i know that it is an emotional flashback, this feeling that she doesnt care.
i always question how much as i am her client and its not an outside relationship...
but yes...i think i was just trying to explain to myself by writing it on here, that i felt that way when eh narc lady abruptly ended the convo, so i was trying to find patterns...but- maybe my feelings about narc lady ending it that time were also present time emotions... as she was a narc.
I just thought she wasnt a narc at the time (didnt even know what one was)..and thought that most people wouldn't react how i reacted...and maybe i reacted twice as strongly because it also reminded me of my narc mother i now realise.

Shoot, i forgot to write- that, i have all these thoughts about what T thinks of me etc. that i wrote here and i wrote about how i feel embarrassed and awful when i come out of sessions because i talked in the session, but when i explain this to her as i thought it was important to bring up, she's so great about it and i wonder why on earth i was worrying.
I know why and I'm not invalidating myself...but its as though i need her to tell me what she is thinking when I'm lost in feeling so terrible about myself and plagued with thoughts about what she thinks of me after the session.
I hope that i will never worry again after some of the amazingly nice things she said to me last sesh.
I am realising that a lot of my reality is false, as it is based on what i *think* people think of me in my own head. I live in my head, and go about my days in the way that i think i should...now the way i want to...in terms of myself being me and being free..because I'm convinced that people think bad things about me.

small steps, perhaps, but important nonetheless.  you are not alone.  we're still here, both with you and for you.  hugs to you.

Hugs to you too and take care. I admire you a lot for doing the work you are doing.  :hug:

Also, Sanmagic7,
I really like your reply to Danaus's post and i hope its not wrong of me to write that, as it was to Danaus.
I would agree Danaus, that you may have had some terrible experience's with therapists.
I wasnt in the right place to think of that after reading your post...and i read it after a T appointment so i wasnt in the best place.
But yes, i hope you can find or have found someone who is a proper therapist to you too.

I need to leave my T.

Uh oh, sienna! What happened? Ate you alright? BIG HUGS!

Thanks ThreeRoses for asking abs for being here. I will explain when o can type it out on my laptop tomorrow.
I drank after last session and ignored my feelings but tonight  with out intending to I found done stuff on YouTube and realise that I have to leave.
Don't know if I'll really go through with it next week but I think I need to.  She always tells me to pay attention to my intuition and feelings.
I can't cry and I don't know if I'll be ok. But I always am.
Are you okay Three Rises?  :hug:

Yes, thank you, sienna. I'm alright. :)

Just remember, you are alright and you will be alright - you are the one who sets your sails and plots your course. I hate to sound like a buzz kill but if you are depressed, alcohol is not going to help that. Take care of the little girl inside you, she's worth it.   :applause:

Thanks Three Roses.
I know alcohol is not going to help. not sure if I'm *depressed*. But yes, i just needed to numb out. I have been acknowledging my feelings lately but now i have no desire or motivation to do so. Sometimes, like my feelings after last T session, are so big i just cant go near them.

And thank you for telling me that the little girl inside me is worth it.
I just cant feel that she is at the moment.  :hug:

As someone said to me long ago, our feelings are liars. Feelings are the caboose, not the engine; they follow where your will takes you. Your will is the rational part of you that knows that no matter how you feel, you ARE important. No one needs to validate you (although we all love that, don't we?  ;) ) in order for it to be TRUE.

You are worthy of being treated well, most of all by yourself. Take care.  <3

Thanks Three Roses. I hope my feelings are liars.
:hug:

i know it's been awhile, sienna.  have been going thru a rough patch.

what happened w/ your therapist?  i know you've kind of had on again-off again feelings about what has happened in therapy.  is it a reality thing, as in did something happen in a session?  did she say something, do something?    i'm not denying your feelings, nor invalidating you.   can you talk to her about it?  as far as i can see, anything that happens in session, or about a session, is or can be a topic for a session.  not knowing what went on makes it difficult to try to guess.  i know you'll make it through this, tho.  i'm just sorry you're having more therapist problems.  that's a drag.

San magic, its so nice of you to check in.
Im really sorry to hear that you have been going through a rough patch.
How are you doing? Im interested to hear about it, if you would like to tell me.

You saying that i have had on and off feelings, i didnt even realise this until you said it, and now I'm thinking that, despite passively letting her know that i don't feel good, but not that its about her...I am keeping those feelings in instead of expressing them to her.

I have no idea of its in my head or not or if its in reality.
One time when i taked to her about how i feel she sometimes doesnt show empathy...she said, *wht do you want me to do? make a big song about it?* and i just froze and said, no.
so i don't feel i can talk to her about the other session in which i felt invalidated.
i worry that she may lie and twist my head if i bring it up, or that she might react badly, but i worry about that when it comes to everybody.

I cant talk to her about it.
last session, she asked how long i had been feeling ...down...and i said since last session.
She didnt put two and two together...or if she does, maybe she knows i feel i cant talk about it.
Then after last session, i just feel terrible. She was validating a lot... but i made sure i didn't talk much and i didnt bring anything in from that week to talk about.
I dont trust her and i was mad at her, but i couldnt tell her.
And i invalidated myself and avoided talking about some topics she brought up, before she could invalidate me first.
I know i should just tell her how i feel instead of invalidating myself, but i just cant.
and i dont know what is in my head and what is not..i don't know what is real anymore and i feel like I'm slipping away.
I cant hold on ..as it feels that all hope has gone and the world as i wanted to believe  it was, has turned upside down.
I dont trust that she will be how she was in this session, in last session, and i think she contradicts what she says too.
Only i freeze and cant challenge it properly.
She told me that my feelings after the rejection were normal...but i didnt feel they were.
she said last session, that when we feel worthless in childhood, we react to a rejection that way, and i said, why didnt you say that to me last session?

she said that she thought i knew where the feelings come from...and that she assumes i know most things because i know most stuff.
She said...sorry. I said, its cool...thinking...that i heard that a lot from X...and i still feel T is invalidating at times, despite me giving her the pete walker paper to read.

The session before this one.. i didnt tell her, but i needed validating, to feel heard and supported and i wanted to understand better why i was having those feelings about myself due to  the rejection...

If I'm wondering if its all in my head,
she is either like my x and playing games (if he did anything wrong at all)
or...
Im just really confused and it is in my head

Thanks for asking Sanmagic.  :hug:
oh, and i didnt feel invalidated at all.