Hi all, I am looking for advice or other people's experiences about contact with family.
I am a married 33 year old woman with a loving and supportive husband. I like my life and I'm starting to develop better relationships with others. But, whenever I think about my parents/caregivers I feel a stone in my stomach and a sense of dread. It feels like a dark shadow in my life.
My mother experienced extreme domestic violence at the hands of my step father- to the point where there were broken bones and loss of life to an unborn child. I think my mother has a PD (a result of serious issues in her own childhood) - everything was about her. As well as witnessing the violence first hand, I also experienced it all over again every time she constantly talked about it and how it made her feel how awful my step dad is to her. They divorced when I was 11 –much to my relief. When I was 17 my mum re-married him. I cried and cried and my mum acted so surprised she kept asking me what he had done to me (she often projected her own sexual abuse on to me and I think the only thing she thought could evoke such a reaction in me was the same thing). They are still married now. No physical violence that I know about but horrible emotional abuse from both sides.
Since then I have maintained contact with my mum but put in boundaries (that I don't want to talk about my step-father and I don't want to talk about the abuse that happened as it upsets me). She generally has taken this on board but I have had to remind her quite a few times. she continues to make everything about her a lot of the time and I have low expectations of our relationship but after 3 years of therapy and seeing my mum in a different light I have found some compassion for her.
Although I have avoided contact with my step father, I haven't made a stance of 'no contact' as I haven't wanted to rock the boat. I've rationalised it by saying 'he's my siblings' father' and 'my mum choose to forgive him so can I'. I now realise after 3 years of therapy that this is absolute rubbish. I feel sick when I see him and I hate being around him or even talking about him. I'm wondering whether or not to talk to my mum about it and stop any chance of contact all together.
That's my mum's side of the family. My Dad and step mother have been incredibly neglectful. I went to live with him when I was aged 7 (and saw my mum at the weekends). Things were ok for a few years but when they had 2 other children when I was 11 and 15, they seemed to forget about me as soon as I hit 16 I was free to do what I wanted and seemed to view me as having 'flown the nest' - they didn't try to include in their family in anyway. This happened to the point where I was upstairs in my bedroom for a week so sick that I couldn't get out of bed and no one checked on me once, that I remember. I had to crawl to the bathroom to get a glass of water. Anyway, they haven't bothered to make contact at all since I went to uni- I have stayed in contact with them because I have been the one to always call them and I'd time going over my nan's when they were there to see them- they went every Saturday at 12 o clock, regardless of whether that was the best time for me. My lovely Nan died a year ago and during this time I realise how one-sided my relationship with DF and step mother way. The handful of times I have been over to theirs this year I have felt triggered and let down and abandoned. I have tried talking to my dad and step mum- my dad's response was defensive and my mother's response was that it's all about me and mocked me 'poor me'. I feel bad letting go because sometimes I tell myself that they haven't really done anything wrong and I cling on to the fact that at least my dad was better than my step-dad.
I am healthy enough to realise that contact (or trying to make contact) is not good for me but I feel so scared and bad about it all still- like I'm causing trouble which I'm sure is another EF.
Has anyone had a similar experience of either of these situations?
Most of us have had experience with this CC and unfortunately it's so individual that in the end you have to make a decision as to what's best for you - to go NC or LC or try and forge a better relationship.
I eventually went NC with most of my FOO and LC with my NPDM but it took a long time to get to that point and some very painful emotion. Talking here will go a long way toward helping you to make the best decision for you so keep on posting and sharing. :hug:
Thank you Kizzie- and thank you for the :hug:
After spending some time reading more posts on here I can see this is a something most people on here are grappling with. There are no easy answers although I wish there were- it can be so exhausting and draining. After writing this I had another EF and I again feel like I want to completely stop contact although I'll probably feel different again tomorrow. I'm guessing this is the painful emotion you were also talking about.
I'm starting to understand my feelings more already through writing and reading posts on here. Such a valuable resource :thumbup:
I completely relate to you CreativeCat. I make the mistake of thinking I can handle my family and/or other dysfunctional relatives whenever I am feeling good or strong......or even better after a long EF or period of depression. For me it is because I still feel guilty for having to distance myself. My inner critic has used many of the new-age dictates of letting go and forgiviness and compassion, not to mention the main stream idea that family is the most important thing, to beat me with and create a list of "shoulds" concerning my family. I, as I am sure you too, have heard from others "when are you going to let our parents off the hook?", "get over it", 'don't dwell in the past", etc. etc.
Do not feel guilty if you need to continue to minimize the time you spend with your family (ha! easy for me to say!).
There is no reason why you should want to be around people who had little or no regard for you at a time when you desperately needed them for physical and emotional development and survival.
Thank you Ferzak, that feels very validating. It's a long road isn't it?!
In some ways I think it should be easy for me. My father and Stepmother haven't bothered to make contact at all with me really for the past 15 years so all I need to do is stop contacting them but it's so difficult- especially when I know they present the reason they haven't seen me as that I'm too busy- not even in a victim way just in a brush off not even bothered way really. I find them so vacant and detached from me and my life. Part of the journey for me in therapy has been letting go of the fantasy of the parents I wished I had and once I let go of that I realised I didn't have a reason to call them or stay in touch.
It feels so heartbreaking though.I feel like I'm being kicked in the stomach as I write this even. Sometimes I do feel guilty but when I remember all the men I let treat me badly and not bother calling back or give me anything because I didn't even expect that anyone could give me anything, let alone deserve it. In someway I wish I was strong enough to just stay in touch and accept what they can give me. But then I have a reality check- so I want to stay in touch with people who make no effort, don't seem to want a relationship with me but I should give lots of my energy to them by calling and thinking of them- just because they brought me into the world (so now I'm grateful that they didn't abort me?- I really am clutching at straws). Then I realise that it is this reality that would be crazy! NOT the reality where I stop chasing after people to make them love me.
I don't want to let go of that anger because it helps me to remember who I now am and that it is NOT OK to be treated in that way. I don't want to forgive and forget. I NEED the anger to remind me of what I AM worth and to hold onto the special relationships in my life where I do get something back and where I don't feel that way. I think coming to terms with this has meant that all the one sided relationships in my life have started to fall away.
Since being here I also feel a little stronger standing up to my mum and saying that I don't want any contact with my stepfather. I've realised that I'm still scared of my mums reaction and I think this goes back to a time when I would never dare disagree with her or talk back.
I know exactly what you mean by the list of 'shoulds' and cliched statements! maybe if the these family members recognize what I am worth and apologised for freezing me out/all the violence and abuse then I could forgive them. But Ive realised that this itself is a fantasy and that without working hard on themselves, as I have, this is very unlikely. I've worked incredibly hard to get to where I am now and I never want to go back. I have learned to only talk about my family situation to people I've learned to trust. for other people if it has to come up I will focus on talking about the family I do keep in touch with. I finally actually feel empowered to only share very sensitive information with whom I want and have that boundary between my feelings and a sometimes harsh and hostile outer world!
I'm sorry you also have to endure these (sometimes well meaning, sometimes controlling and manipulative) 'new-age dictates'. I personally do think the 'positivity movement' has its place, alongside experiencing ALL emotions, but the more I am healing, the more grating and irritating I am finding the whole positivity mind set thing when people use it to gloss over or suppress 'negative' feelings!
Right now I like my anger and it serves a purpose!
Dear CC,
You were treated very badly, yes they are so messed up they neglected and abused you badly. I am happy you have a great life now with your own supportive partner and are making friends. Personally i wouldn't go back to family like that. They don't deserve you, do what enhances your own peace. :hug: :hug:
Wow parents! Going NC has happened off and on but I haven't been closer than LC in the past 20 years.
One needs to protect oneself from the hurt that comes from being among people who have caused so much difficulty in our lives. For me it would be nice to have some recognition of the pain caused, that will never happen, the step of realising that their ways of thinking and parenting is aggressive and abusive has never been reached. I had flashback at their house a few years back when my father started being aggressive towards my nieces, getting angry resulted in my being asked to leave.
The whole thing I find is cyclical and runs in 7 year cycles, going from getting along OK to strained relations to a blow out and typically being ejected from the house with nowhere to go. I learned that if I visit I must have transport and I visit on my own terms. If I become in any way dependent on their hospitality the nature of the visit changes and I hear "you only come here for something to eat / you want something from us.
Not sure if anyone else feels like a stranger paying a visit to acquaintences you've only meet once or twice. That's how it feels when I go to my folks.
They still try to make me feel terrible, never appreciate the thousands of miles I have traveled and hours spent on top of the cost of flight tickets, rental cars and hotels. For instance during my last visit my father felt compelled to let me know that I was dis-inherited. Which I felt was a clear attempt to kick off a fight.
So as they are my family I will help if they need it, I know that a part of me does it for approval that will never come.
At the same time, while I find it hard to accept their lack of remorse and ability to make amends, I also can't blame them, they have themselves endured pretty much what they put me through, and are operating on their own level, as toxic as it is. I am the lucky one being able bring up my kids in the hope that they won't be as screwed up as I am.
So if you can live with everything as it has always been then have limited contact, I would not recommend trying to have a "normal relationship" unless they have seen the error of their ways and sought help
Forgive them for they know not what they do but look after yourself
I posted this in another thread, but thought it applied here as well...
It's an email from SpartanLifeCoach (subscribe to him on YouTube, very helpful, he has CPTSD himself, and is a great life coach, also talks a lot about narcissistic abuse)
3 tips for handling communication with an abusive personality type:
We MUST discuss the thorny issue of handling
communication with an abusive personality type that
because of circumstances outside your control you
simply can not get away from.
Yes, No Contact with them ever again would be
the ideal solution, but we do not, sadly, live in an ideal
reality, as evidenced by the current (unacceptable) lack of
unicorns and/or dragons.
I will be releasing a proper tutorial on handling contact
with a narcissistic personality type soon, but lets get
through some top tips that you can start using today.
1. Snake Handling Gloves
Have you ever seen the way pro snake handlers handle really
venomous snakes? They have all kinds of funky looking
equipment they use and they TAKE ALL NECESSARY PRECAUTIONS SERIOUSLY.
They take their task very seriously.
In doing so they alter their emotional state.
You may or may not know that I am a self protection
instructor of the combative martial arts variety. One of my
areas of specialty is the psychology of self protection so I
know all too well just how important it is to train the
emotions and mind as well as the physical body to handle
violence.
One of the things I would focus on is "state management".
One would hope that a SWAT team member is in a different
emotional and psychological space, smashing down the front
door of a crack den than he is at the dinner table? The pro
snake handler doesn't handle a highly venomous snake whilst
chatting on his mobile with the other hand and chewing a
sandwich.
Well he might, but he wouldn't live very long!
The risk of getting it wrong would be an agonising death so
he: changes state and pays attention.
Do not approach communication with a narcissist in a slack,
off the cuff, impulsive way. Yes, they will do their best to
get you to relax, that's their game plan, but don't.
Use a different mindset and HANDLE them with as much
emotional distance as you can.
When they call, take a breath, mentally put on them thick,
fang and venom resistant gloves, switch your awareness level
to "present moment Zen" and be as detached as a surgeon.
2. Start With The End In Mind
This is a rule not just for handling snakey narcissistic
types but for life. Have a clear objective in your mind and
stick to it. Many people, places, things and bizzare
eventualities may unfold seeking to knock you off your
objective but your success in life will be proportionate to
your dogged determination to stick to the plan and focus on
the end goal, ignoring all else.
Like a pitbull. Be stubborn. Bite down on the objective.
Dont let go.
When I teach self protection, I call the mindset needed to
survive a violent confrontation, an attitude of tenacious
resolve.
The abusive personality type is a black belt in
discombobulation, prevarication, equivocation, garbling,
shucking and jiving, quibbling, sidestepping and fudging
with a good working knowledge of the subtle art of the flip
flop, the reversal, the deadly art of reframe-jitsu and the
kung fu master of "no matter what its your fault and I'm the
victim here".
Do not fall prey to the knavish, quarrelsome strategies of
the swindler-villain.
Instead start with the end in mind and stick to your
objectives without getting pulled into the emotional
poop-puddle they seek to wrestle you into to distract you
from your true purpose.
Stay stoic. Laconic. Cool. Focussed.
This will take discipline and impulse control. But its well
worth it as it deprives them of the emotional oxygen they
need from your distress.
3. Abandon Sincere Communication When Communicating With The
Insincere
Like a ninja dropping a smoke bomb to stealthily mask her
timely escape the abusive personality knows that distraction
is key to an effective strategy. If you analyse the
communication with a new pair of glasses on, glasses that
only let you see the one frequency of emotional
manipulation, you will see things differently.
With your new specs it will be clear that they are almost
never really talking about what they seem to be talking
about and are just engaging in a series of provocations to
foster certain emotional reactions in the people around
them.
Ready for another martial arts lesson?
Here we go:
FOCUS ON CONTEXT NOT CONTENT.
Whilst you bravely and sincerely try to deal with the
content of the reaction-seeking gibberish they have vomited
your way they are relishing in the context of your emotional
upset.
The content is what they are saying the context is your
emotional state.
If they can not alter it, they cant win.
mmmm, looks like this "state management" thing might be
pretty critical eh?
Ok thats enough from me for now.
Have a great weekend.
Cheers!
Modify message
That's really cool. A snake is a toxic predator just being itself. If the manipulation of the snake is physical, manipulation of the nacissist is verbal, so keeping that to minimum is one way you won't get bitten. Simply listening and nodding for as long as you can get away with it.
He didn't really say much hopefully the workshop will be informative.
Thanks KayFly for posting this advice from SpartanLifeCoach. Indeed, it is unfortunate, but many of us cannot go NC :sadno: with our families because of other siblings, taking care of members in the family, etc... LC has been my approach for years with dad and it works just fine for me. He doesn't like me or approve of how I live my life (which is simply because I do not go to church) and blames me for corrupting my mom, basically helping her to start thinking on her own and having opinions.
But SLC is right, his analogy to a snake holder is excellent :thumbup:. I tread lightly and use a lot of yes and Umm's when I am at my parents home. Try to say as little as possible around him (and my brother). It is only f.or Holidays (the big ones - Thanksgiving, Xmas, Easter, and Mother's/Father's Day) and Birthdays, maybe 10 times a year (and they only live like 10 minutes across town). It is just easier to endure these few occasions to avoid family drama and arguments. He drops comments and opinions in there to illicit a reaction. I learned his game a long time ago and stopped giving him any reaction at all. I will just change the subject or say something that really doesn't tell him anything at all. Once we have had dessert, he is very quick to kick us out the door because he really does not want us there in the first place. The man changed the locks on the doors to the house the day after I got married. He made it very clear that I was not welcome to return home and that it was no longer home to me (not that I ever really felt like it was home in the first place).
Thanks again, KayFly. Your post is very validating for me, that I am doing some of the right things in the interest of self-care.
MaryAnn :hug:
SLC's thoughts really highlight for me just what we went through as children and why we developed CPTSD. How on earth could any child learn to effectively handle a snake? It's hard enough as an adult that basically we have to don our protective gear just to be around them occasionally, but to be a child and at their mercy with no hope of escape except to dissociate - really, truly sad :'(
I could really relate to the advice "Abandon Sincere Communication When Communicating With The Insincere." As soon as I stopped trying to talk to the PDs in my life as if they were normal, things got easier for me and harder for them. Through OOTF I learned how to step around all the various land minds and traps they set, taking away the attention and reaction they need. It's really the only thing you can do when you have to be around them I agree MaryAnn.
I got to a point though where I realized that managing them (being the snake handler) still made them a big focal point in my life and took energy I didn't really have nor wanted to give up any more. Being LC/NC these days I don't have to armour up, avoid traps, think about everything I say as much which is how life is meant to be I think.
My sister is a martial arts instructor/self defense teacher. Specialized in teaching women to fend of their male assailants.
I feel used as a punch-bag by her.
At some point I even got the mental image I'm so often drawn in the ring by her as a sparring partner. But I'm the amateur here, and she's training for the kill in her next big match. And she practices her kill punches on me. But she doesn't show the restraint you would expect in a sparring session.
She's not satisfied before the knock-out blow has been delivered. As lethal as possible.
My dad (NP) is in the hosp. He told my mom, who told me, his nurse's sister had abusive divorce with possible NP/psychopath. He describes her situation similar to mine. Her ex is Psychologist/ mine in psychotherapist. Both picked up and moved to other states with another woman. Both trashed us financially BUT includes she has 4 kids, stopped payments on house and cars. She is homeless, with 4 kids and without job. Playing game of one up-man's ship. 'Her issues are worse than your issues and you are such a disappointment because she can handle it'.
He explained the woman experienced all of this without trauma, no PTSD or CPTSD. Basically saying- what is your problem- see other people can have similar things happen but they are ok. SHAME. SHAME SHAME, worthless, stupid, over emotional, overly tender.
Well, --my dad is NP. Both sisters have had ability to shame me and rip my life to shreds using me as target practice all my life. It seems as though that gives them joy and happiness.
I won't compare my life with someone else's. But I'm hurt and angry he through that in my face so shortly after his emotional attacks and my surgery. Maybe she is doing well (I truly hope so) because she doesn't have NP dad and sisters who find delight in using me for target practice.
wow. what a nasty thing to do :pissed: :pissed:. i feel angry for you, tiggerd2!!!
i guess he must have got to know his nurse's sister very well indeed to have such a handle on her emotional state... a handle that he obviously finds useful to beat you around the head with....
support to you hon, as you work through this below the belt blow. :hug: :hug: :hug:
It was the 1st time he met her. She had only been on the shift for about 1 1/2 hours.
If this is true, I would love to talk to her sister. The ability to share that information face to face would be wonderful
Triggerd2, your story would sound bizarre, I think, to anyone unfamiliar with NPD and the manipulative behavior we have to deal with. "Normal" people don't make such strange claims.
Your father seems to be doing something familiar to me: throwing up examples of people who "have it worse" in an effort to shame you for your "problems" and deflect attention from his own behavior. In my FOO, this kind of denial came from both my uNPD mother and my enabling father. Neither of them showed any empathy and instead trivialized any of my (sometimes admittedly childish) concerns. And the denial and deflection opened a space for my mother to exert her narcissistic needs.
That seems to be what's happening to you. Can you limit contact, now that the surgery(ies) is over? Is distance possible?
Actually, it now, I have no idea what. My dad was diagnosed with Bladder cancer for the 2nd time. He had surgery and is not doing well at all. My mom has shut down. He is to begin treatments shortly although he is now weaker. I'm now dealing with the probability of my dad's death within 6 months-- I pray not.
Speaking with my psych MD, I finally realized and got it through my head he is a 'wounded NP'. He's like the person in the middle of the ocean who can't swim and would grab onto anyone around.
I was able to put boundaries down. :cheer: I flat out told him what he was doing. I told him he was pitting my sisters against each other so he could feel "safe". Yes he kicked into shame (real shame) - I told him to open his eyes and look at me. I told him kicking into shame won't help anyone. I know he will probably panic and play the game again but now I will step back.
I emailed the only sib who will read my emails without deleting them 1st. Actually I only have 2 sisters. I have no aunts, uncles, cousins- my parents were only children. I tried to give a bit of information. We spoke because my mom called my sister while I was there. She explained her side- what she did, what she wanted. I told her I was happy I found out because dad said this----------------. I said I was sorry for automatically believing what my parents said and didn't check it out with her.
I'm learning I sort of really like her. She remembers things I blocked. I feel like a child wanting to curl up next to her and cry. That would be incredibly unhealthy for me. I worshiped her while I grew up.
No matter what I say about how controlling and bitchy she is, she is THE person I would do about anything to receive acceptance.
I am an emotional wreck. Between my surgery, pain, fear, no one to talk to except my parents, my dad's surgery, his pain, his issues, my parent's crisis and everything else- I feel raw and exposed. I am more sensitive, having more flashbacks, decreased sleep because of remembering my past.
It will get better. I know I am not as exposed as I feel I am. I'm taking steps to get more sleep tonight.
Trig2 I commend you. I know it is v hard what you are going through. But i see such strength in you through your story. You are one courageous person. :hug:
:stars:my 21 yr old son may have some of this...he's very selfish, makes few promises and usually breaks those. Narcissistic and entitled but it isn't normal. I tell myself it's a phase. He makes me feel like I'm the cause - blames me for reacting to his hurtful actions and AWFUL things he says. His dad is huge disappointment, so I did 99% parenting. So is this something I did wrong? Did I give him too much love and attention? Is that even possible? He has best of everything, then abuses me the next day! How do I live with or without my only child? I do a lot of crying, which never helps! I'm devastated. I pray he outgrows this. Immature hippocampus? Friends just judge me and I feel so, so alone.