Does anyone have any experience, or resources they could point me to in regards to "learned helplessness"? I think this is something that I'm fighting hard with at the moment and it's holding me back big time from a lot of the self-care stuff that I want to be doing. I guess identifying it is the first step, but I don't have any idea where to go with it from here. I haven't talked to my therapist about it yet, but up to now, she hasn't been particularly helpful in any practical ways so I'm researching.
Thanks!
Hi spryte. Excellent question. I have seen nothing directly in my reading. However, I personally find the grief work that both Pete Walker and Karyl McBride detail as critical in our recovery addressing that directly for me.
In other words, with all this reading of books, articles, and the posts on the forum and applying it to what I went through, I then have day after day of pieces of the puzzle clicking into place.
Quote from: spryte on September 30, 2014, 01:47:23 PM
I think this is something that I'm fighting hard with at the moment and it's holding me back big time from a lot of the self-care stuff that I want to be doing.
what is the learned helplessness looking like for you these days, spyrte?
What rain said.
The only thing I've disccovered is that the pomodoro method helps some. But then I usually forget to apply it, because my Inner Critic convinces me that it'll fail anyway because I'm simply just an inactive person. Which probably means I'll have to first work through my trauma-related goo. Hooray. :-/
I'll have to check out the pomadoro method SC.
Rain - sigh, these days it's looking like me having zero motivation to clean, do laundry, take a shower, go grocery shopping, make myself healthy food, do work at work, or go to bed on time. I'm just sitting there, watching myself not do these things and it's driving me crazy.
I KNOW that I'm doing a lot of really hard internal work, and that none of this stuff is super important. I'm working on patience and compassion for myself. I'm working on trusting in my process. And having faith that the more of this crap I clear out, hopefully the more motivated I'll be to get stuff done.
But, while I'm working on the other stuff, I'm still watching myself not do these things, and it's just...frustrating. A few weeks ago, I ran into the concept of "demand resistance" which, I think might go hand in hand with learned helplessness, although I haven't quite figured out how.
Demand resistance - a chronic and automatic negative inner response to the perception of pressure, expectations, or demands (from within or without).
This is me, through and through. My mother was controlling and critical and I learned at an early age to be sneaky and not do the things I was supposed to, but only in areas where I knew she'd never know...not brushing my teeth...and I can see that pattern emerging on through my adult hood and into my relationships. I was a fawn...people pleasing to the nth degree...but the minute anyone actively WANTED anything from me, created an obligation, I would just...shut down. It even went so far as just...normal social contract obligations. The minute I felt..."Oh, I should call so and so, I haven't in a while." Newp. It immediately became an obligation, instead of me doing it because I WANTED to.
And, the critic managed to turn every fun thing that I've ever wanted to do into an obligation..which means that I want to do it long enough to get involved, pay money for art/craft supplies...and then the first time "I should do that." crosses my mind, I've lost interest. It's been that way with everything in my life. I don't honestly know how I managed to keep myself motivated long enough to get both a massage licence, and a bachelors degree...except that I had the external motivation of grades.
Which makes me wonder how learned helplessness/demand resistance and external motivation connect, because what I've discovered...today as a matter of fact, is that because I was a Fawn for so long, everything I've ever done was done because of the external motivator of someone else. I was doing it to please someone else.
The minute I was alone...on my own (which happened three years ago), I began to struggle with doing these simple tasks. Cooking, cleaning, showering, grocery shopping, and watching entirely too much tv. Some of it has to do with escape. I escape into TV to manage my anxiety, or to end run loneliness...therefore not leaving myself time or much motivation to do any of those things...but there's also this element of helplessness to it too.
I FEEL helpless to change it. I watch myself doing it, and I feel helpless to do anything about it. And, I remember how helpless and afraid of the Big Huge World I was when I left my last long term relationship. I was extremely emotionally sheltered in that relationship, and being on my own for the very first time in my life was terrifying.
I feel better about it now, I've got three years of taking care of myself under my belt, and I'm in a wonderfully healthy relationship that is anything but emotionally sheltering...and yet I'm still fighting this.
Still looking for the key to it, but I feel like I'm beating my head against the wall. It's really affecting my health. And back a few weeks ago, when I said that I found that demand resistance stuff...I had my biggest breakthrough with my critic than I had had in...well, ever. The minute I realized that ALL of my language towards myself was "should" "need to" "why aren't you" "you suck because you aren't" "not doing it right" "not doing it well enough" "not doing it at all" - you get it, it could go on and on, but basically revolving around all the stuff that I thought I should be doing, all these obligations that I was piling on top of myself....I just stopped.
I told myself ok...fine, I'm just...not going to push myself to do anything. If I want to eat ice cream for dinner, I will, and I won't castegate myself for it. If I want to subsist on caramel apples for the next week...fine. We'll try this out for a month and see what happens.
What happened was that my brain got quiet Like...quieter than it's ever been. I felt lighter, and noticed a dramatic reduction in my anxiety. And suddenly, all my "I love you" mantra's to myself sounded genuine. It was kind of crazy.
And the world has not burned down, I've even managed to do a few things just because I wanted to, not because I pressured and guilted myself into them. There are still far too many nights though that I am still laying on the couch at 3 in the morning, watching TV, when I have to get up at 6:30, and paying the price for it the next day.
So...just looking for ways to change that behavior. I figured there might be some kind of therapy/books that were specifically geared towards learned helplessness that might shed some light on it.
Learned helplessness is all part of the complex web that's CPTSD. I could find no tips how to overcome it easily; most experts seem to agree that the key to unlearning learned helplessness is (re)gaining a sense of control.
Here's a link I found, maybe it helps a bit to get started:
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2013-02-19/features/sns-201302191830--tms--pagliarictnrp-a20130219-20130219_1_negativity-state-lotteries-helplessness
Rain, thanks for sharing your experience.
I did write this though, "What happened was that my brain got quiet Like...quieter than it's ever been. I felt lighter, and noticed a dramatic reduction in my anxiety. And suddenly, all my "I love you" mantra's to myself sounded genuine. It was kind of crazy."
I don't feel like I've heard my inner critic in weeks, and when she does speak up...she is easily subdued. The moment I dropped all the judgments about what I was or was not doing, she shut up. So, unless you just missed that part....I'm not sure what you're seeing in what I wrote that leads you to believe that that's whats going on. Would you point it out to me?
The thoughts that I'm having about me not doing this stuff is really much more objective. I mean, obviously all of these things are hindering my life in a lot of really practical ways, and it worries me that I'll just stay "stuck" here, regardless of whether or not I'm crushing myself into the ground about it. I just figured, well...it's either going to continue, or it's not...but either way, beating myself up about it isn't doing me any good. And I let that go. And I feel a LOT better about it.
I don't know, I feel like maybe I'm just on the verge of learning how to do things because I WANT to do them...and it's going to take me a little bit of time to learn how to do that.
Keepfighting hit it on the head - with BOTH learned helplessness, and demand resistance (assuming they are two different things) the key to both of them seems to be for me to learn that I am in control again. Or, well...not again as I don't believe I ever HAVE been in control. I think maybe using some mindfulness techniques and just slowing down with each of these choices and asking myself really...what do *I* want. I don't know. It's like a rubicks cube. I'm going to keep twisting.
Have you become more productive since that time, if you don't mind me asking.
Oh wow. Demand resistance, that's it. I'm doing (or rather, not doing) the same things you do (or don't do). I'm watching myself NOT do things and go "....hng? What?! I'm a grown-up, I've no problem usually doing all those things... so why don't I?" Then I list all the reasons why I should do laundry / exercize / paint / write more etc etc, and I go "right. RIGHT. NOW I'm going to do them! Today! Yes!" And then I... don't. It's baffled me so far, but whoa hey, here's the answer. Thanks for that, spryte.
I did the same thing you did with the food! Hugely liberating!
So maybe my inactivity is actually about emancipating myself from my FOO's many unreasonable "should"s and "have to"s. Never looked at it like that. It seems like a helpful starting point though. Really interesting, this connection to a sense of control. It makes sense. My FOO was all about the "should"s and "must"s. The locus of control was with them, not with me. My preferences were brushed aside. That I should now have trouble digesting "should"s that come from outside is only logical, seen in this light.
It also explains some of the things that have helped me in the past to overcome my demand resistance (I'm very proud of my shiny new word and will use it whenever I can :phoot:). They're all ways of wresting back control from my internalized "should"s. They're not working now, but I'm hoping they'll work again once my Inner Critic has shut up a bit more.
Ahh...haha, that's funny. I actually wrote about that in my journal the other day. That I was afraid that if I tried to start setting goals for myself again, that it would start up again. That I would inevitably fail again, like I have all the other times. Then I contemplated the nature of the trust relationship between me and myself.
I hear you. But in my case, it's not about the trust relationship. It's that I wouldn't be sure that those goals are really my goals. Other people's expectations might start to influence me again and then they'd maybe take over. It's fear, mostly, I think.
I just realized this moment why several of the fantasy novels I've written over the years feature attempts at mind control. Sooo obvious, in hindsight. This fear of being taken over seems to be rather deep-seated. How weird that I never noticed.
I am incredibly grateful you brought this Learned Helplessness topic up, spryte
Rain - you're welcome, and I'm so happy that what I wrote about resonated with you! I'm a full believer in the fact that we learn what we need to learn most from other people. There is something so profound about sharing experiences, whether it's these experiences or any others. I'm going to have to pick up those books soon.
So, there was one book, and I don't remember which one it was but there was a quote from a survivor that has stuck in my mind. I might be paraphrasing, but it was something like, "My parents gave me all the tools I needed to continue abusing myself long after I left their house."
It. Is. So. True.
With the demand resistance stuff, I was seriously shocked to suddenly have such clear perspective about how much I was abusing myself on a daily basis with all the "should's" "need to's" and "must's"
And SC, I totally understand where you're coming from although I hadn't thought about it from that perspective before. I think that's what I've been doing with the DR stuff, is sort of looking at all the things that I have been requiring myself to do and decide who's requirements they are. It's hard, like having to go through everything one by one to determine, "Yes, this is something I want to do, should actually be doing."
Actually, let me rephrase that because writing that out I just understood it better.
I never subscribed to a lot of my parents "should's". I have JUDGED myself by them for years, but at as soon as I was able to, I rebelled against them. I don't subscribe to their religious, social, or economic beliefs. Whether it was a direct act of rebellion or not, I don't care. I am happier with my actual beliefs...they make me a more compassionate, open minded person and I've had a lot of great experiences because of them. That has not, as I mentioned, kept me from judging myself based on their beliefs though. Which is weird and convoluted, I know - and not exactly the point I'm trying to make.
So for me...going through all of these "requirements" it's not so much about figuring out whose they are, theirs or mine, but instead discovering that I actually "want" to do any of them. I was never allowed or able to do what I "wanted" to do. Anything of import was directed by them, I never had the opportunities as a child to make any kind of meaningful decisions, fail or succeed, and get the satisfaction that's inherent in making good decisions for myself...or even learn from making bad decisions. All of my decisions were based on whatever the opposite of theirs were. Some turned out well, lots of others...not so much.
So for me, when I look at those decisions now, I have to figure out the "want" aspect. Yes I "want" to do my laundry, because I "want" to have clean clothes for work, not because I "have" to (because they made me). Apply that formula to everygoshdarnthing. *sigh*
Mindfulness. Mindfulness. Mindfulness. I am finding that an invaluable tool for digging through all of the DR and LH stuff.
Also, regardless of our reasons for needing to sort through this stuff, what you talked about...
"But in my case, it's not about the trust relationship. It's that I wouldn't be sure that those goals are really my goals. Other people's expectations might start to influence me again and then they'd maybe take over. It's fear, mostly, I think."
Just an observation, it may or may not be true for you, but trust in ourselves comes in many forms. For me, it's trusting that I won't fail myself. Which is fear. For you, it could be that you don't trust yourself to be strong enough not to allow those expectations to start influencing you again. With my boundary setting, I closed myself off, cutting off a lot of uncomfortable for me, but not toxic, relationships because I couldn't trust myself to protect myself emotionally.
In any situation, trust is only built (once it's been destroyed) in tiny little increments. Small steps that, when successful will reinforce our trust. And, when not successful, (because we WILL fail sometimes) are small enough not to be devastating and easier to work through emotionally.
^^ that is what I am contemplating in learning how to trust myself again in regards to setting goals for myself again. I'm not there yet, so that's all theory. But, I'm thinking that at some point, I'm going to have to set a tiny goal for myself, and meet it. Set a tiny goal for myself, and meet it. And keep doing that to build up my personal "trust" bank. In the meantime, I'm going over in my mind all the times that I haven't let myself down, to perhaps put things in better perspective.
Spryte, that's an interesting point you're making - that it's very possible to judge ourselves (harshly) using our parent's standards
even if we're not actually agreeing with those standards consciously, or following them. I'll have to see if I'm doing that.
Having to find out what I want vs what I think I should do - or what I think I should want - hmyes, that's VERY familiar, too. Surprisingly hard work, too. One should think it's a fun, easy job. But it's like having to deprogram oneself from some Pavlovian conditioning. It's definitely a shock to see how thoroughly one has continued the work of one's abusers, I absolutely agree.
QuoteFor you, it could be that you don't trust yourself to be strong enough not to allow those expectations to start influencing you again. With my boundary setting, I closed myself off, cutting off a lot of uncomfortable for me, but not toxic, relationships because I couldn't trust myself to protect myself emotionally.
I'm starting to learn how to do that, too. You see, my CPTSD is mainly due to emotional abuse, emotional neglect, and social exclusion. And how do you protect yourself from that? How do you even see any danger signs? It's all so subtle, so invisible. It's creeping up on you by increments. That's probably why snapping back into my old behaviour is also subtle and incremental, a slow shift, almost a kind of gentle undertow. So it's a worry that this will start all over again and I won't notice it until I'm in the middle of it. (That it's subtle and slow has got its advantages though. Changing things for the better is easier, too. There's rarely one big step that I'm having to take. It's less like leaving a cult, more like learning a new skill or losing weight.)
I have this out so I see this everyday from the http://anupturnedsoul.wordpress.com/2013/11/02/being-a-child-of-narcissists-breaking-the-silence/ web site.
I read it all the time is the "we are programmed to self destruct if we counter our parents" message (even when we are adults...the programming is still there in us).
Rain - the grief work is incredibly important. The thing that's always held me back in regards to that was the fact that for so long I was emotionally shut down and numb. It seemed really irrelevant to me to talk to anyone about any of that stuff when I couldn't *feel* anything in regards to it. For the longest time, I couldn't even cry. Like, ever. About anything. Now, I cry, but still I can't always get there in regards to things that I know that I really NEED to cry about. It's been a slow and frustrating journey back to even being able to feel stuff. THAT was a * of a journey in and of itself. (I need to remind myself of that when I start fretting about how long this processes has already been going on.)
And actually....^^ that process speaks to the response that I was going to make to SC.
We have similar backgrounds when it comes to the types of abuse. And it's really hard to protect yourself from something that seems so big. For me, it's really been about breaking it down into much smaller behaviors. I used the boundary setting as an example because for me, that was a big "protection" behavior that I could identify. Being able to stand up for myself either by speaking up, or walking away, was a particular behavior that I could focus on strengthening in really practical ways.
NOT setting boundaries led me to situations that, exactly as you described, crept up on me. I can't tell you the number of relationships that I found myself in where one day, I just woke up and couldn't breath because all of my boundary setting issues had caused me to slowly, incrementally, disappear into the other person until I didn't know who I was anymore. It was a completely unconscious thing, until it wasn't any more. And still, nearly 8 years after learning about co-dependency and boundary setting, I still have to be hyper-vigilant about doing it, had to do it many many times....until I am finally at a point where I've done it enough that I have actual proof that I can look back on to be able to say..."I was in these situations that threatened my boundaries, and I did X about it, and protected myself, so now I can "trust" myself to be able to do that"...and just in the last few months, was able to invite my father back into my life with a modicum of trust in my ability to protect myself from his past behavior.
I love the fact that you are a translator, and that you have a love for words. I too have a love of words, and definitions and have really enjoyed some of your other posts on the topic. One of the things that I love about psychologists is their penchant for naming everydarnthing. (alternatively, I am annoyed when 12 of them name the same darn thing 12 different things).
My point though is this. As much as it shook me, I was really excited to find the definition for C-ptsd because it encompasses SO MANY specific behaviors. And through exchanges like this, we can add our own, and find ways to approach them.
And yes, going through all of the things, determining what we want vs. what was programmed IS hard work. However, I have noticed a very specific "growth process" that's almost like an equation...I think I'll post about it in another thread...but, what it means is that recognizing a pattern is the hardest part...and yes, the path to being able to change it is long but it only gets easier from there. So, that's good news!
Rain - I have also lived in fear of becoming my mother. Especially once I realized that she was BPD. A recent psychiatrist I saw even tried to diagnose me as BPD when I broke down in her office after she accused me of being a pill seeker when I went to go get evaluated for ADD and then told me she thought I was BPD - basically reinforcing my greatest fear...gee, wonder why I broke down??? (after spending 15 minutes with me) smh.
Hi spryte - hm, I've done that too, disappearing into another person. When I was a kid, I consciously began to copy a cousin my FOO really got along with - trying to become like her. It worked, too. It felt good at the time - "yay, my family's being finally fair and even friendly with me!" - but of course it was a sour, bitter victory, one that did me huge damage. "See? Soon as I stop being me, people like me." A really, really, really bad lesson to learn. I'm thinking that this is why I had such trouble drawing good boundaries. Boundary-drawing is easier if there's a YOU somewhere in there who has likes and dislikes, pet peeves and deal breakers, things you want and things you can't ever tolerate.
It's good that you mentioned breaking things down into smaller steps. I've been wrestling with the whole problem of: how do you define "emotional neglect" or social exclusion? Even emotional abuse - it's hardly ever this one big, horrid event that you can show to someone and have them go "oh yikes, that sounds bad". Even when you just think about your trauma in your head, a part of you always goes: "...this is hardly earth-shattering." What's proven helpful is this - realizing that human beings are wired to live in groups, so unwanted social exclusion in and of itself is hugely traumatic, especially if it happens when we're kids.
Reading your post brought it home that the times I moved forwards on my issues were the times when I tackled just one component part and took it seriously. I had a huge flashback yesterday, simply about the way someone addressed a snide, patronizing remark (meant for me) to someone else over my head. (Kind of passive-aggressive.)
My FOO did it and my classmates did it, and since I had no other social contacts, that meant literally everybody did it. I realized just why this was so painful. It's because this kind of behaviour is always, always used to separate insiders from outsiders. It's used to police and demarcate one's inner circle, and to show someone else (=me) that they're outside, they're not in the know, and that therefore it's okay to act in a supercilious, patronizing way towards them - they don't matter, so it's alright.
I hadn't connected this progress to the fact that I finally let myself look properly at one of the itty-bitty components of my trauma. But yes, it makes sense. You were mainly talking about our behaviours, I know, but it makes sense seen either way. Because you see, now that I know that snide remarks trigger me and why, I can come up with ways to protect myself - with healthy boundaries and small shifts in behaviour, like you said. Maybe all those things are connected closely anyway, grief work and self-protection. And seen like this, progress is much easier to recognize, like you said. So thanks for sharing your experiences.
Looking forwards to your equation. And that therapist sounds like she missed her calling. With therapists like that, who even needs abusers and perpetrators? "Go see Dr X, your one-stop answer to trauma! Curing and causing PTSD since 2012!" Horrible woman. I hope she gets diarrhoea so bad that she'll have plenty of time to sit and think about her wicked ways.
SC ...Cat ...I laughed so hard with your words, "Go see Dr X, your one-stop answer to trauma! Curing and causing PTSD since 2012!" Horrible woman. I hope she gets diarrhoea so bad that she'll have plenty of time to sit and think about her wicked ways."
Spryte ... I'm sending you a big :bighug:
Cat - indeed, what a crap lesson to learn. I learned similar lessons along the way...all the ways that being "me" wasn't ok. Really hard work to undo THAT damage.
And MAN I wish that we as a society would push so much harder to emphasize how important it is to take that time for yourself, to live alone, to "find yourself". I feel like that would have been such a key developmental stage for me...that didn't happen until I was 33. And I look around at all these young girls that I know who are on the same path that I was and my heart just aches for them.
There was a time when women went straight from their parents houses to their husbands. The results were the same then as they are now, except back then women were EXPECTED to be co-dependent little reflections of their husbands. Now it's happening with both men and women. Ug.
"What's proven helpful is this - realizing that human beings are wired to live in groups, so unwanted social exclusion in and of itself is hugely traumatic, especially if it happens when we're kids. "
Indeed. Actually, if you ever get a chance to pick up an introductory social psychology book, you'll probably find it enlightening in terms of all the ways that our brains have specifically evolved to be social...and how deep all the evolutionary social cues go. They've done studies that show that social exclusion or rejection have the same effect on the brain as actual physical pain.
I think my interest in psychology was the only thing that helped me muddle through a lot of this. I have a somewhat intuitive way of putting that information together, and for me...a lot of this is almost like math. 2+2 If you do or say x to a child, then y is likely to be the result. The only variable factor is the child's own temperament and how many times x has to occur before y is the result. For some kids, it's 5 times, for others, it's 50.
Parents rarely know the temperament of their child. And they don't get that if you chastise your daughter in front of three adults that she looks up to, for knocking a damn magnet off the fridge, until she cries...she is likely to have freaking self-esteem problems in the future. (something I saw someone do once - and I'm still pretty sick about the fact that I didn't actually say anything at the time. Still too conflict avoidant to stand up for a child...but I'm working on that for damn sure.
And yeah, that psychiatrist...smh...I don't have insurance at the moment so I'm stuck with community health centers for therapy. Sadly, they're filled with all the rejects who really couldn't make it in private practice which I think this woman was because she was older, or the newbies, who are making their bones but don't know much about anything yet. It makes me really angry that that's the only resources that are available to the population who often need help the most.
Rain - thanks! :yourock:
Quote from: spryte on October 03, 2014, 03:44:19 PM
...so I'm stuck with community health centers for therapy. Sadly, they're filled with all the rejects who really couldn't make it in private practice which I think this woman was because she was older, or the newbies, who are making their bones but don't know much about anything yet. It makes me really angry that that's the only resources that are available to the population who often need help the most.
hmmm. I hope my relative who chose to work in one does not read this. :aaauuugh:
Well, I certainly don't mean to offend anyone, but in my area, this has been my experience at two different community mental health centers which is the only place that you can get mental health care here on a sliding scale. I've seen three different therapists, and four different psychiatrists. Therapists who walk out on their clients without any notice (2 different ones), effectively reinforcing abandonment issues. After the second one, I spent an entire day at work in tears after they called to tell me she was leaving, feeling completely abandoned. Again.
Psychiatrists who either accused me of drug seeking like the one woman did...or who throw three months worth of adderall prescriptions at me like they're candy, like the next guy did. I never WAS evaluated for ADD, which is what I went there for in the first place. There was no actual EVALUATION done.
The last therapist that I had that walked out said that they each had over 150 active cases. It's not their fault, but in general, places like that do not draw the most talented of therapists because they eventually get burned out and leave. The first time I got dumped by a therapist it took me 2 years to go back to therapy. After that horrific experience with that psychiatrist? I demanded to have an apt with a second one...except...the first one had finished her evaluation and it was already in the system. So when I went to see the second one, with a typed up letter explaining exactly what happened with the first? She talked to me like I was a frightened animal, and used the letter as evidence of symptoms of BPD. And also refused to evaluate me for ADD, like I was there for. Instead, she gave me a script for a non-stimulant ADD med to appease me. I had never seen such insanity in my life in a doctors office. And, even though I filed that complaint directly with the center? It was never addressed. I never heard back from them, likely because of what the first woman put in my file.
It is very sad that your specific two centers are seemingly very ineffective, to say the least, spryte.
Quote from: spryte on October 02, 2014, 11:53:38 AM
So, there was one book, and I don't remember which one it was but there was a quote from a survivor that has stuck in my mind. I might be paraphrasing, but it was something like, "My parents gave me all the tools I needed to continue abusing myself long after I left their house."
It. Is. So. True.
With the demand resistance stuff, I was seriously shocked to suddenly have such clear perspective about how much I was abusing myself on a daily basis with all the "should's" "need to's" and "must's" .... So for me...going through all of these "requirements" it's not so much about figuring out whose they are, theirs or mine, but instead discovering that I actually "want" to do any of them. I was never allowed or able to do what I "wanted" to do. Anything of import was directed by them, I never had the opportunities as a child to make any kind of meaningful decisions, fail or succeed, and get the satisfaction that's inherent in making good decisions for myself...or even learn from making bad decisions. All of my decisions were based on whatever the opposite of theirs were. Some turned out well, lots of others...not so much.
So for me, when I look at those decisions now, I have to figure out the "want" aspect. Yes I "want" to do my laundry, because I "want" to have clean clothes for work, not because I "have" to (because they made me). Apply that formula to everygoshdarnthing. *sigh*
Mindfulness. Mindfulness. Mindfulness. I am finding that an invaluable tool for digging through all of the DR and LH stuff.
I'm familiar with learned helplessness, but had not heard of demand resistance before Spryte. Your description of both really resonated with me and I had that wonderful feeling of "Oh so
that's what's been going on" like I did when I found out about CPTSD. So tks, this explains so much :thumbup:
I have actually been trying to figure out what it is that "I" want to do (or not do) more lately, although I didn't quite realize what was driving this other than trying to listen to myself more, and less to ghost voices and others who "know better than I do." It was intuitive but not explicit until I read this thread. So much of what we go through with CPTSD benefits from being "named" or identified so that we can consciously deal with it. That is "mindfulness" isn't it?
Community health centres here are the only places you can get care on a sliding scale except for the (very) few T's who will accept patients on this basis. I choose to go to one as I wait for our extended health care benefits to kick in (my H just retired from the military and it takes months to switch status, why we do not know but it is what it is and we're trying to practice acceptance ;D).
Anyway, I had in the back of my mind that this care is NOT as good as what I could get if I could pay for it (or rather our health care plan could), but went for my first appointment this week and really connected with the T. He laid out his whole education and experience with trauma for me and was clear that while he does know a lot about PTSD he does not know a lot about CPTSD, but is more than willing to research it and work together with me. Ding, ding, ding - I think we have a winner!
Congratulations! :phoot:
Kizzie, if ever there's a... what's it called on OOTF? Toolbox? This wiki list resource thingie with all the handy clickable links? I'd suggest putting Demand Resistance in there. Reading about it here was a huge aha! moment for me, too. I think I owe spryte a coffee.
:cheer:
So glad you guys found it helpful.
I changed the topic to reflect the shift in conversation to Demand Resistance.
For me, step one of getting a handle on my DR was to drop my criticisms of myself for not doing all these things that I thought I "should" be doing, like they were hot potatoes. Once I recognized how DR was shifting even the pleasurable things that I wanted to be doing into "obligations" it became clear to me how I was mentally terrorizing myself with this never ending To Do list that was ALWAYS hanging over my head. The more To Do's that got put on the list, the more I froze, completely overwhelmed by them and having this unconscious resistant negative reaction to anything that had even the slightest whiff of obligation attached to it.
So...I've largely let go of the criticisms. I've stepped back, and am giving myself time to just...explore this, look at it in a different light, and maybe figure out some ways to approach it again.
I've learned some interesting things.
1. Now that my head is quieter, I've been able to see that not everything that I was struggling with had to do with DR. My food issues, for example. Without all the guilt and fear in the way, it became a lot clearer that it wasn't ME making food decisions so much as it was my inner kid. I was a little shocked and kind of amused to see how I'd put her in charge of food choices, and it gave me a much clearer perspective of that entire situation and how to handle it.
2. The Bizzaro World nature of all of the manipulations that I've been subject to in my life in conjunction with having had very very little chance to develop myself - my likes and dislikes, have completely skewed my entire view of...well, I'm not sure there's a convenient word or concept to encompass it. Just patterns that I'm seeing across things. Skewed my motivation behind wanting to do things. Skewed what I think I even want. Skewed my perception of why I do and don't do things. All of those things come under the heading of Demand Resistance, but they're much more specific.
I was reading this blog post today:
http://perfectlyawfulusa.blogspot.com/2011/02/does-pleasure-come-with-price-tag.html
Which really sparked a lot of thoughts about my own distorted thinking on the matter. Mine aren't exactly the same as hers, but run in similar veins.
Things I got out of it:
1. There's a big difference between being "entertained" and "actual pleasure". I engage in a lot of "entertaining" activities...TV, Movie's, unhealthy food, things to fill space, time, occupy my brain, escapist activities...but very few things that bring me "actual pleasure". I'm finding more of those things, and I'm slowing down with my food trying to figure out if this or that unhealthy food is bringing me actual pleasure (which I feel like there absolutely needs to be room for in one's life) but I need to look at this much more closely.
I'm not actually sure anymore that I even know what actual pleasure is. So MANY things in my life have gotten tangled up with my OWN brand of FOG that I've been spinning around myself! Fear that I'm not DOING IT RIGHT. Obligation about how I SHOULD be doing this or that. So much guilt about NOT doing things, that I get to the point where I just want to HIDE from it...no matter how much I wanted to do it in the first place!
I bought myself a piano around May. It was my graduation present to myself. I have only sat down at it a few times. I have come up with every excuse in the book for not practicing. I immediately, the minute I got it, started feeling the obligation. "I NEED to sit down and practice. I SHOULD sit down and practice." (Never EVER "I WANT to sit down and practice, how FUN would that be!") Which of course, triggered the knee jerk "I don't wanna!" (Which was, I'm sure, exacerbated by the fact that this entire process played out when I was a kid as well complete with criticisms and tear downs from my mother about the fact that I wasn't practicing) And, now I just feel guilty every time I look at my piano or whenever anyone asks me about it. It makes me sad, I was SO excited to get it!
I have done the exact same thing with a ton of craft stuff that I've bought over the years and am currently doing the same thing with a business idea that my boyfriend and I talked about...that I was excited about...and then I got sidetracked by a bunch of "life stuff" and instead of thinking rationally...ok, sidetracked, lets get back to this...it was "I should have been doing this, why aren't I doing this, I need to be doing this, he must think I'm a real flake for not even mentioning this for weeks!" Cue that same FOG.
2. I even have this reaction to things that I don't actually have any interest in doing
"If you love fresh, organic tomatoes, by all means plant your own - if you enjoy the gardening work."
My boyfriend and I bought a bunch of flowers and plants over the summer, intending to start a garden. It didn't occur to either of us that neither of us actually know anything about gardening. Most of the plants died, some of them are valiantly trying to hold onto life, but are so sickly that they'll never produce fruit. That whole endeavor just became one more thing for me to beat myself up over, without me ever even pausing to think about whether or not I really even WANTED to learn how to garden. I mean sure, theoretically...I do. But, the reality is that we live in Florida and it's a lot of hard work, it's expensive, and it requires a lot of self-education that I just don't have the time or really even the interest in doing to learn how to grow plants specifically IN THIS CLIMATE.
If there were ways to shortcut that process? Maybe. If we had the money to have someone come over and landscape, and plant stuff, and teach us how to take care of it...I'd be all for it. I do love digging in the dirt. So...there are ways around it.
But there is absolutely no problem solving that can happen when I'm stuck in that FOG. And you know, I've read a lot about the FOG that others put us in, and extricating ourselves from it...I'm just now realizing how I've done it to myself. :stars:
Hey Spryte - I agree with Cat that we should include demand resistance in a section like the "Glossary" one at OOTF (http://www.outofthefog.net/Glossary.html) given that few of us had heard of it but so many of us related to it.
Would you be willing to write up a blurb like the ones at OOTF (definition, description, some links)? That would get the glossary going quite nicely ;D
Kizzie - I'll try. It seems to be an interestingly elusive thing that hasn't been focused on a lot by psychologists. I've only found a few websites that talk about it, as a very secondary issue to something bigger...like perfectionist/ obsessive personality disorders and hoarding. I'll do some more research this weekend.
spryte - I've done that very same thing with my piano and my painting stuff.
I had a small epiphany just now. Your post brought something to mind - a method I know from dealing with writer's block. You purposely mess things up. When I'm stuck writing a scene, I purposely write it in a sketchy, hamfisted way. That sometimes gets things unstuck.
Maybe that method works because it silences our inner grown-up?
You know the one I mean - not really as nasty as our inner critic, but very humourless and strict and "you OUGHT to do this PROPERLY". Like this:
(https://www.cptsd.org/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.heidisland.com%2Facteurs%2FRottenmeierOld.jpg&hash=e8926693e1f6faa7c77aabb689a8ba9048416641)
So how about we appeal to our inner kid instead? Do you think that could work? Like, maybe painting a still life of an apple, but then giving it a smiley face. Or picturing oneself sending the Inner Grown-Up out the door and then telling one's childlike aspects: "Here's some stuff to be creative with. All yours now." Maybe there are other writerly methods that could be useful, too. This is interesting.
Tks Spryte and not to worry if you don't! I just thought I'd ask in that you seem to have the best grip on it.
THIS IS MY LIFE!!!
unfortunately I have come to the conclusion that that some of my FOG and learned helplessness behaviors right now are actually possibly stemming from my romantic relationship. It seems as though if I get around a BPD women, I kind of go into fawn and forget who I am. I am at a crux, She is actually on board with seeking treatment but once the reality of what has been happening to me truly hit me... I am now terrified of her! It is sad because she may just have CPTSD like I do , frankly I think bpd is over diagnosed... my mother now she had BPD and was so crazy that pain and abuse really do feel right at home to me, I deff. have internalized the idealize devalue cycle and very much relate to sam varkins " inverted narcessit " type.
Anyway , once I showed my girlfriend the DSM about BPD she was like
" yes that's me " and unlike a lot of people in my life she actually expresses great sorrow over things she has done in the past, I noticed that she dissocates too and actually gets numbness of her body and all kinds of odd pains. Its bizzare we fall into scripts where I get " unreal " feeling like its all fake looking or unreal in some odd way, and she goes into dysphoria and somatic things. We are the war of the roses couple! At first she deff. was emotionally abusing me and slowly just heeping on unrealistic expectations... setting me up to fail, then mu passive aggressive side came out and I would just lie or agree to demands yet actively not do the things I had agreed too. eventually she raged on me, this was the trigger that deff set me back light years. anyway I was so foggy that I just checked out and luckily started writing notes and keeping a calendar to spot and cyclical stuff.
so now its just not good, I am like a war vet, she says that we will be talking and she will ask for me to make even a simple decision and suddenly she sees the scared child take over. its like instead of her being a soldier to the veteran , she is in that moment my mother about to hit me! I will start to cry a little or shake. thing is, we deff are both triggering each other. Im seeing a DBT therapist and she has agreed to get help but oh my its scary. I get scared of her and she thinks " oh no shes about to abandon me " and then shes triggered lol In my mind its like " ok this is a betrayal bond and you know what that means!" however I also believe that the right help can stop the cycle. we have similer things causing different outcomes...
Now I feel paralyzed , I have let my car go not getting it inspected, I let my bills go , my damn dog looks a mess because he needs to go to the groomer.. I have been unable to do any household cleaning and my work proformance is not good lately. She has actively stopped getting angry with me but I can sense her resentment and that makes me feel more fear!...its a bad time....
Sasha, would it be possible for you to take a time out from the romantic side of the relationship and focus on stabilizing things in both your day to day lives like getting your dog to the groomer, getting the car serviced and soon?
That can take a lot of pressure off both of you and get back a sense of control and some stability. You agree to put the personal stuff on hold, reassure one another that you will come to it when you're both in a better place.
And given you're both invested in therapy, it sounds like there is will on both sides to improve your relationship but there's just too much going on to get there just now.
Big :hug: and hope things go better
I think that is a solid plan, my pup is a pom/ ahpsa lapso so he needs mucho grooming. It's like everyday I wake up and get stuck, I want to take care of things but cannot explain why I'm just too in my head to live my life right now. Praying this therepist can break me lose! I haven't been like this in a few years.
http://lifecoachplus.net/solutions-for-overcoming-learned-helplessness/
Sense I myself and others here seem to find self talk with all of our " parts " helpful this particular link seemed doable for myself anyway. If you can't get out of bed you can still talk to yourself! Time after time when I ask my pessimist part why I don't get things taken care of I get the response " because you don't deserve a car " I think this may be an old tape the mother within trying to keep me loyal or just simply a lifetime of fear surfacing.
For me I think of we didn't get this way overnight, it has to be slowly undone in the same fashion. I left my books in my car after work last night, so that I would have to look at it today and go outside if I want to read them! I'm a smoker so I'm thinking if I make a bill pile and leave my ciggs on it, I will at least get desensitized to seeing them! Then I can slowly start to open them!
How do you eat an elephant??? :D
Spryte, thank you for your posts on this subject. Honestly, you described it so well, you could have been talking directly to and about me!!
Quote from: Sasha2727 on October 27, 2014, 03:26:58 PM
For me I think of we didn't get this way overnight, it has to be slowly undone in the same fashion. I left my books in my car after work last night, so that I would have to look at it today and go outside if I want to read them! I'm a smoker so I'm thinking if I make a bill pile and leave my ciggs on it, I will at least get desensitized to seeing them! Then I can slowly start to open them!
How do you eat an elephant??? :D
I had to laugh at your idea about the bills. Brilliant! I'm trying to coax myself into doing more, too. A few years ago, I thought I'd best tackle the problem head-on, and change my habits directly to what I wished they were. That didn't work. I'm now trying to just slooowly nudge myself in the right direction. Even so, it's just frustrating how slow this is... but you're right, we didn't get this way overnight. Thanks for reminding me.
Question to everyone: what do you think, could a part of this learned helplessness be a flashback? Triggers evoke not just feelings and thoughts, but also behavioural patterns, whole fake personas or states of being that we once created to keep ourselves safe. Couldn't passivity and demand resistance etc be a part of that? Not all of it, but a part?
The reason I think this: I was in a rather passive mood this morning, "bleargh, why even bother, everything is pointless". The lucky thing was, I happened to be journaling at the time, so I explored this and - what do you know, EF. This was how I used to feel as a teenager. It was a rather mild EF, and I caught it in time, so it was possible to deal with it. Afterwards, I felt more motivated.
Could be that I'm simply the last to catch on to something that will make the rest of you wonder how to break it to me gently that you kind of knew that all along. In that case: yay, I caught up! :phoot:
Hi guys. Thanks for sharing all your experiences and thoughts. I'd like to weigh in about my ex:
Her mom was the cause of her cptsd; her dad was the one who came along and soothed after the fact. After reflecting on her stories and having met her dad, I have to wonder about his role in learned helplessness.
His two sons grew up to have jobs that supported themselves and their families. They both choose college degrees that were useful.
My ex majored in art and chose a profession related to that degree that never paid well. Dad paid for college. When I met ex, her dad was giving her $500/mo to help make ends meet. She was 45 and had a 17 year old daughter.
She defined herself as a person who had no use for technology, so had no clue how to use the wide variety of tech we use today. Cellphones, gps, tv remote baffle her. (I think her inner critic is so loud that should she use these and fail, she would feel a failure.)
She often asked me why people did things. Why do people speed to a red light? Why does someone lie? Why do people break the rules of good behavior? Once when she asked me a question like that, I even told her that she sounded like a teenager asking her dad about life. She was over 60 at the time.
And when it comes to household chores, major demand resistance. As the only daughter, her npd mom made her clean the house, with much criticism. So fast forward 40 years, and my ex liked to do laundry but that, and occasional dusting in the living room, was it.
As I am retired and not working, I did the bulk of the chores. Occasionally, I resented it and we talked about it--a bit of effort expended for a while, but eventually I let it go as an issue.
Demand resistance as a fb? I think yes. When we discussed, she always brought up how her mom terrorized her over chores.
Learned helplessness as a fb? Yes, but is it about missing her dad? Waiting for him to comfort her?
QuoteThe Inner Critic delivers ALL forms of manipulations and attacks that parents used to do, plus "new and improved" variations added on. With the Inner Critic, the abuser is INSIDE, STILL abusing. Visualize an INTERNAL EMOTIONAL ABUSER.
~Rain
I agree but I want to add a little accomplishment for me. My inner critic is now my "
Good little Soldier" that I gave attention too and appreciated for sometimes standing on guard against feeling the wrath of my heavy handed parents or x-abuser H.
Poor little soldier :'( still has hypervigilance at times from all those years at duty. So in order not to be too critical of my inner critic (which is for me an redundant & futile exercise), I lovingly give her vacation leave, -or-tell her to stand down but with respect for her service.
After all, she might have barked orders at me, but she wanted to protect my inner child and my survival.
Yes Toby, you are developing the healthy counter of the Inner Love in you, and personally I 100% separate the two so I have absolutely no confusion on that.
Rain, thanks for your take, tolerance and time.
I have Peter's web and book handy as well so I am not in dispute with semantics or styles at all. Whatever is healthy and works for the journey person is AOK in my book (expression)! :yes:
It took me years in a 12 Step Program (CoDA) to be gentle to my perfectly imperfect parts. And I do hear you on the inner critic. I think I finally buried mine during CBT and through members such as yourself that encourage others. :bighug:
Quote from: Sasha2727 on October 27, 2014, 03:26:58 PM
I'm a smoker so I'm thinking if I make a bill pile and leave my ciggs on it, I will at least get desensitized to seeing them! Then I can slowly start to open them!
In reading this thread, there are so many posts that are like reading my own life! I will have to go back and reread this great stuff. About the ciggs on the bill pile: I have actually taken receipts and unopened mail and burned it in a bin outside. I laugh as I think if something was important I will just say that I "lost it in the fire."
Seriously though, be safe if you do something like this...
In reading about Demand Resistance I was wondering if any of you experience what I call Reveal Resistance. Whenever I tell someone about some success I am having I can no longer continue with it. Examples would be eating right, exercising, housework. I have to keep it a secret to be able to go on. Maybe some sort of self-sabotage??
Hey Spryte. As some of the others have said, I think this is part of the grief process. I remember when I used to feel exactly how you were talking about. It first started when I moved out of my M's house too.
Do you think it is learned helplessness or depression? I have a friend who has some terrible learned helplessness and to me it seems more like he literally can't even think of helping himself get better or change. He knows he has CPTSD and he won't make any effort in any way whatsoever. He also doesn't appear to show any self-awareness.
To me, what you're talking about sounds more like depression because you sound self aware of what is playing into these moods/feelings. However, if you don't think it's depression just ignore the rest... When I was going through this phase in my grief, my step D gave me "The Road Less Travelled." It's an okay book. The part he made me read first was the chapter on depression though, which was only a couple pages. Mostly it said that depression (not chemical depression) is a grieving phase in change where you are giving up an old part of yourself to become a new more healthy person.
I had this horrible depression for years on and off, but it was worth experiencing because depression forced me to slow down. I'm very task oriented (as I'm sure many people on here are) trying to beat perfection to the finish line. Depression helped me see that taking care of myself was most important, and that I couldn't take care of anything else until I took care of myself first. I still struggle with this, but to develop a new understanding of yourself feels good! Feels like you hit a corner stone.
I think my biggest mistake at that time was not talking about it with anyone. I was very closed. I don't think I really knew any better tat the time honestly.
Do you try to do nice things for yourself? I used to try to make myself a cup of tea or take a bath. It really felt impossible. My best friend would make me count my blessings with her on the phone. I still do that still when I feel *.
flashbacks contribute forsure and I have to laugh at the persons ex who would ask " why " questions. for me, any demand creates either pressure, good pressure or shut down. If the anxiety of the demand is too great I dissocate witch causes my attention to shift to exstitential " why do people do this " or " do you think I do this because... etc. " I shift to neurotic obsession with my own exsistance and the way I or other people relate to each other. I believe this is due to the fact that all of my senses are dulled due to the dissocation steming from the panic and anxiety caused by the emotional flashback of the original trauma of intermitant random abuse at any time for anything but as a child trying to find reasons as to " why " it was happening.... this becomes a rumination based avoidance coping style and a symptom of depersonalization and derealization which are dissocaeative states caused by anxiety.
My question is I sometimes get unconsciously passive aggressive, I do not always catch ,yself until its too late! but to give example I will be late right when its most important not to be! or forget important things when I promised I would do them. I think for me its a mix sometimes I do this due to not being able to access anger but sometimes its just because my memory sucks and flashbacks, and aviodence... lol its a lot, so to say its always aggression is not the case... but I do believe sometimes ....heck yes it is, but I never consciously choose this.... and being female lol....it runs with a cycle if you know what I mean lol any thoughts? I also seem to unconsciously self sabatoge! and self harm! I am an " accident prone " person.... but that needs a whole other thread....
Wow, so many interesting things said in this thread... I've just grieved a little and am a bit under the weather, so I might not be too clever right now, but here goes.
Toby, I've done something like that. My iCr turned out to have good intentions - he wanted to be something like my inside man, echoing and pre-empting abuse so I'd be prepared. So it was possible to come to some kind of understanding with him. Like yours, he seemed to be a fighter, very hyper-vigilant and very conscious of threats. So your way of seeing your iCr as a good little soldier sounds helpful.
Quote from: WhobuddyIn reading about Demand Resistance I was wondering if any of you experience what I call Reveal Resistance.
Yes! For example, I told someone about a new radio station I'd discovered, and now I can't listen to it anymore. I'm wondering why that is so. When I was a teenager, I realized slowly over the course of a few years that anything I mentioned would get me scornful / dismissive / patronizing /critical reactions. (The same thing said by another person might be met with praise, or with politeness. It took me
years to see that pattern, and seeing it was quite unsettling.) So the only thing that was truly safe was something I kept secret. Maybe it's that?
Quote from: alovelycreatureI had this horrible depression for years on and off, but it was worth experiencing because depression forced me to slow down. I'm very task oriented (as I'm sure many people on here are) trying to beat perfection to the finish line. Depression helped me see that taking care of myself was most important, and that I couldn't take care of anything else until I took care of myself first. I still struggle with this, but to develop a new understanding of yourself feels good! Feels like you hit a corner stone.
Oh wow. That's true. I never looked at my own depressive periods that way, but yes, that's true. Thanks for letting me see things in a sunnier light.
Sasha, so if I'm getting this right, your ruminations on the "why" is both a coping strategy and a symptom of derealization / depersonalisation? I do that too, think obsessively about the why and wherefore, so this rings a few bells. Derealization and depersonalization rather feel like problems, and it's so startling and mysterious when it happens. So you ruminate obsessively to try and fix things. As one does. I mean, if something weird and inexplicable happens, your thoughts start running around in hamster circles going "what happened, what's wrong, where has this come from, why am I like this". That starts the rumination. And when you look at it properly, this rumination itself is just another aspect of the problem. It shows that you can't be in your body, you can't be in your emotions, you can't even be in your Self, but hey, you can still be in your head. You're doing the only thing that's left for you to do. So the coping strategy becomes the sign that there's something wrong.
About the passive aggressiveness - not sure if I do that, you'd probably have to ask everyone else around me. But I notice often that I'm fatalistic. Self-sabotage, maybe that's a good word for it. "Oh, I won't get things done anyway... I'll mess things up anyway... I'll be late anyway" - so why not be even later, why not let the mess accumulate even more, why not push it to the extreme? There's been a few mentions here of self-parenting our inner child, praising ourselves for jobs well done. That seems to help. The problem is remembering to do it. But whoever suggested that method, I probably owe them a virtual hug, it's made a difference already.
Quote from: schrödinger's cat on December 29, 2014, 10:45:40 PM
Sasha, so if I'm getting this right, your ruminations on the "why" is both a coping strategy and a symptom of derealization / depersonalisation? I do that too, think obsessively about the why and wherefore, so this rings a few bells. Derealization and depersonalization rather feel like problems, and it's so startling and mysterious when it happens. So you ruminate obsessively to try and fix things. As one does. I mean, if something weird and inexplicable happens, your thoughts start running around in hamster circles going "what happened, what's wrong, where has this come from, why am I like this".
About the passive aggressiveness - not sure if I do that, you'd probably have to ask everyone else around me. But I notice often that I'm fatalistic. Self-sabotage, maybe that's a good word for it. "Oh, I won't get things done anyway... I'll mess things up anyway... I'll be late anyway" - so why not be even later, why not let the mess accumulate even more, why not push it to the extreme? There's been a few mentions here of self-parenting our inner child, praising ourselves for jobs well done. That seems to help. The problem is remembering to do it. But whoever suggested that method, I probably owe them a virtual hug, it's made a difference already.
This thread is really helpful to me too. I do the "whys" a lot and no one at my work seemed to do the obsessive why-ing like I do. Now I get it. It is my cptsd. That helps. Now I will try and observe myself and my whys and try to make sense of it.
Also, the pushing things to the extreme. Sometimes I feel like I am trying to create drama where there wasn't any. Maybe to make things even more challenging? Or more interesting? Don't really know. ???
Trying to create drama..because we are used to it and it's.normal to us.