Out of the Storm

Hello everyone

I'm just wondering is there any one else here that would class themselves as an HSP or an Empath?

I've been reading so many posts that contain highly intelligent and insightful language. Some are beautifully written and obviously come deep from within (soul)

There must be a correlation between CPTSD and the above mentioned traits. It stands to reason that we suffer so much on so many levels, because we have these gifts. Or rather curses??

Kubali

Me :)
I first came across Elaine's book 'hsp and ticked all the boxes !
I was relieved to put a name and find literature on this trait -
Nature or nurture it's an interesting debate
I have learnt to calm down the empath bit as it just got too much - I seem to be able to work more from my mind with this now rather than 'living others emotions -
Curse or gift ? Well for me a gift now I live a more spiritual life but before that a curse I'd say as I just didn't seem to have boundary between me and the world ! Our society is not really geared up for hsp I'd say

Good observation, Kubali--thanks for bringing it up.

I say I don't like to categorize but I do anyway; probably to help make sense of the unfathomable tugs/pulls of the cptsd travels/travails. Anyway, I come in at the high extremes of what passes for HSP.

Funny, one of the first questions therapists (I've gone through 9) ask is invariably "are you easily startled?". My answer is always ready--Not at all, quite the opposite, I'm hyper-alert to everything and everybody. Although I guess some of that could be considered intuition. So if there's a positive take on some of the cptsd "effects" it's that our intuitive sides can be uniquely developed that way. But the curse is indeed the tendency to notice so much that it easily overwhelms, and in my case it's the sense of critiquing a situation to be sure the activity or person won't hurt me. Sometimes consciously, often I'm unconscious of it, but it's always there anyway; good/bad, I guess.

Empathy...big time there, too. I've been naturally drawn to volunteer roles with hospice and headstart pre-school programs. My attraction? I find non-judgmental people there, which counteracts my hesitation with social situations. Similarly, in my offbeat "career" as an actor/educator  my intuitive/sensitive nature has allowed me to be effective in those roles as well.

This is just me, but I'd hesitate to call these traits "gifts". Granted they're probably positive which somehow stemmed from negative origins. They happened in spite of the pain we endured, but none of us would volunteer to go there again to receive our "gift". I just feel odd to think that it was good to endure the pain no matter the positive end. 

Truly a paradox, but I'm quibbling with words...ah yes, another obvious cptsd outcome, for me--I tend to tread carefully in writing, as it was once a given I'd be misunderstood, no matter what I tried to say. :stars: Stop me before my inner critic pours it on!



   

To Boatsetsailrose and Woodsgnome

Thank you for replying. I have often wondered about this and it's comforting to know that others have experienced the same thing. Yes the author Elaine Aaron certainly had interesting and insightful things to say. I found it a revelation that there were other people who struggled with overwhelment. I thought it was just me being 'weak' . No doubt I acquired this label from my FOO!

It's a curious thing that labels can be either discriminatory or a comfort. Another illustration of the subjective truth of our existence. I believe that our perception can be changed with patience and consistency. It's raising the awareness of deeply held negative beliefs that can be so exhausting. Thought monitoring is a trait I inherited from my abusive background, but I guess it's come in useful when it's reframed as Mindfulness.

I am similar to you both, this is enlightening! Before I felt alienated from the rest of the human race. So thank you for sharing your thoughts. It is truly helpful to receive positive mirroring don't you think?
Kubali

Quote from: Kubali on June 06, 2015, 06:27:37 PM
I've been reading so many posts that contain highly intelligent and insightful language. Some are beautifully written and obviously come deep from within (soul)

I feel the same way!  It's almost like there is some magical quality to this place.  Like I found it by opening a loose panel in the back of my wardrobe.  For a few days I kept thinking, "Here they are!  I've finally found my people!" 

To Paintedblack

I agree wholeheartedly with you. Here is a sense of belonging. Of being understood. Of being accepted.

Oh the relief!!

Kubali

Absolutely - sanctuary and support and hope :)

I believe I was hsp regardless of upbringing ...
It was evident to me at a young age that I connected acutely with nature and could connect in with energies and the unseen - ie spirit folk of other realms

Where do you recommend looking for more information about HSP and empath as you describe?

I'm loving all the self-aware answers in this dialogue! I'm curious where to explore to see if I can contribute feedback as well.

Hi hyperv

Here is a link this author wrote a v good book and I think she is the top person to read
There is also a self test on her site

http://hsperson.com

When I first saw the list for HSP traits I almost fell off my chair. The shock of recognition was almost too great. Here were the very things I'd learned to hate about myself, and hide from others. I grew up being called "over-sensitive", a dismissal spat out in frustration and contempt. Any concession from my mother, like removing the tags from my clothes, or being 'allowed' to wear sunglasses, were borne with the heavy weight of martyrdom and the implicication that I was difficult and weird.

That embarrassment paled next to the torture of being able to read and empathize with my family members, a skill none of them shared or wanted. These were feelings I could not turn off, and still can't.

It took me too long to work out that being different in that family wasn't just about survival skills but innate gifts. I have to say they have not always served me well, because I used them exclusively for their benefit and grew up knowing no other way to relate to the wider world. Perhaps the worst damage came from their scorn. I developed a deep shame about things I felt or sensed, about being wholly different from others.

So to see these characteristics listed and discussed, to learn that so many others experience the same strong, sometimes overpowering, sensations and emotions...it's just such a relief. And that it doesn't mean you're nuts or impossible or touchy or a brat or being selfish, ridiculous or a big baby (all of which was said to me)? What a gift to everyone who thought they were alone.

What's an "empath"?

Sounds pretty dodgy to me.

I'm definitely an HSP. It was such a relief to read Aron's book -- it made feel that possibly I was an okay person, and it resolved a lot of guilt.

wow, this thread is a bit of an eyeopener... it may mean that i am not weird.... i must research this. thanks

Empathy is learned thru our own suffering and vulnerability. I dont believe people are unique snowflakes our own humanity is something we must gain thru experience, and some of us have been unfortunate enough to be over acquainted with ourselves in a world that encourages sociopathic behavior. thats what I think anyway...

I think I am.  dunno.
I think I was always a thinker.  I always observed people and I was curious and I also didn't bond with my parents which made me independent somehow...
and for these reasons I think I was able to survive and make it to this place right now. 

I also had to read a lot and go through 30 years of therapy off and on, mostly on, and I'm guessing I learned a couple of things. 

When I was a kid I remember wanting to understand people and help them so maybe that's just part of me. But I also wanted it to be subtle, without a lot of hoopla, so I directed my energy towards a quiet way of helping. I'm also the kind of person who in general likes to figure things out and in doing so,  I tend to look for the root of the problem.  The root of the problem for people is really the fact that we are all on this rock,  hurling through space for unknown reasons.  That means we all are in the same boat.  Thinking that way is bound to make me have compassion for everyone.

Chairmanmeow wrily observed:

"Empathy is learned thru our own suffering and vulnerability...and some of us have been unfortunate enough to be over acquainted with ourselves in a world that encourages sociopathic behavior."

Probably the best motto I ever ran across was "Fortitude in Distress." I was familiar with its use by the voyageur/canoemen of early Canada, who were heroes of mine.  I've needed to remember it many times when I'd give up hope of ever finding my own route through life's rapids.

And yet there's so many daily messages, as charmanmeow points out, to be obnoxious, win at all costs, that sort of daily shouting mass media thrives on. Those messages in turn have been co-opted by even religious people's example of get yours, it's what the deity wants for you. Huh? No vulnerability in that, just walk over people and take advantage.

The counter to the meanness is empathy, as we somehow survived all that and came out really caring for life even more, because we'd been in the hopeless dark so long.

Some call this a sort of gift bestowed by cptsd. Please, no--who of us would ever voluntarily accept such a gift. :sadno: It's only by accepting our vulnerability that gets us through, not by some gift wrapped in the hatred and cruelty we were exposed to.

Ahh but it is a fact that suffering is unavoidable to be part of this world, to inflict it and to receive it. Its the way of life and minimizing it one can say is a responsibility we all share.... Its neither a gift or a curse, just a understanding every human being is hurling toward every minute they continue to exist. Its unavoidable what really makes a person exceptional is how we handle the one thing we do control, and thats our own way of looking at it and our attitudes. So while some turn at all costs to avoid the unavoidable suffering and build delusions others can accept the nature of affairs and in turn become empathetic and some of the finest most understanding people to grace your company. Everything is earned in fire when it comes to humanity, Id rather have open eyes and independent thoughts and be able to enjoy my problems, then be unlucky enough to never see misfortune and run like a child thru this world selfish and never understanding the things that matter. Im no fan of tragedy but if you embrace it in the right way you can learn a lot.

I still have the question: "What's an empath?"

I might well be just me, but if somebody would introduce him/herself, or later in the development of a friendship/work-relationship or any other relationship, as being an "empath", I would most definitely run. At least emotionally.
It sounds like a mindreader. Meaning: they know me better than I do.
:sadno:

Not too long ago I learned (through somebody who had done his PhD on empathy) that empathy involves knowing that one can never fully feel, sense or know anybody else. Ever.
Empathy involves feeling, sensing or thinking how another might experience, or has experienced, a certain event. But one always keeps an open eye, and/or mind, that something else, or something more, or something completely different is the case.
This was a real eyeopener for me, probably due to the fact that I have for a long time been in close contact with two people who I now consider to be Histrionics, for which one of the diagnostic criteria is "considers relationships as much more intimate as they in fact are". Well, knowing what the other really feels/thinks (and consequently rebuking the other (me in this case) for not being in contact with himself) is pretty much a hallmark of being "too intimate", I'd say.
I know for a fact these two people consider themselves to be very empathic.
I've now learned they are most probably not.
And I dare say, for me empathy has always been a synonym for bonding, but these two individuals do not want to bond with me, but me to merge with them. And bonding ≠ merging.

And I also dare say quite a few more people I meet confuse being empathic with having 'to take it all in' (either them taking you 'in', or you having to take them 'in'). It's perfectly possible to be empathic with somebody, when you don't have a clue on what's really at hand.


As for the Highly Sensitive: yes I consider myself to be pretty High Sensitive, but I'm also pretty aware that quite often I'm more being Highly Vigilant, instead of Sensitive. My sensitivity from outside stimulus is at those time actually impaired. True, that impairment is caused by a high sensitivity before the advent of an EF for example, but when the EF takes 'hold' of me, it's pretty much over with my 'High Sensitivity'.

Quote from: Southbound on September 15, 2015, 06:16:13 PM
Apath and sociopath responses shut you up, and how! An empathic response lets you feel your feelings without judgment.

Thanks for providing context.  :thumbup:
Now I get it. Apath, sociopath and empath.  ;D

I consider myself to be empathetic because I tend to consider what people are feeling and I try to draw conslusions to the best of my ability based on what they say and how they look or whatever.  I mean I can't read minds I just have the interest. If I think they don't want to listen to me act empathetic or if they don't want to talk to me, I don't impose.  I avoid human contact most of the time anyway.  Also, if I think I know what the other person wants it doesn't mean I act accordingly.  Sometimes I get anxious and I ramble on and on even though I get a clear sense that the other person is trying to get away.  It's like watching a bad movie.  I probably come off as an idiot I have no idea.

I'm also highly sensitive in that I jump to conclusions about what people are doing or thinking and I react emotionally. I suppose I am sometimes right even when I'm anxious but I'm very often wrong and even though in that moment I sense I could be wrong, I still react the way I react.

I don't believe in mind reading.  I don't believe that I can tell anything about a person by looking  at them.  I sometimes watch people at the gym and just as a game, I imagine what kind of person they are and make it seem plausible. Then I arbitrarily try to imagine they are a completely different kind of person and that also seems plausible.  It's only when I start to talk to someone and hear what they say about themselves that I feel like I know a person.  I guess that's not really mind reading, just listening.  and people lie and sometimes i can tell.

hum.. i just did that HSP self test that there was a link to back on this thread. i also read a bit of the research the lady quotes. how amazing it is. i laughed at myself cos i scored 23 out of 27.  :stars: no surprises there then, no wonder i am such a mess!

seriously, though, i am fascinated by this thread becos it opens to me a train of thought - one that might give a hint of a beginning of an answer to the question why i am the way i am.  why i have crashed so badly and why i just can't seem to recover as quickly as i used to in the past.  i guess simply, i have gotten completely overwhelmed. too much pain for too long with no escape. surprisingly that isn't as depressing a thought as it might appear.

for me, empathy is both a noun and a doing word. a noun becos it describes the way i seem to always need to penetrate beneath the exterior, the visible, and to sense the way the inside is running. if that makes sense.
a doing word becos to me, once i have seen, i want to act. not that i always can or do, but that is the urge. i always want to alleviate, to help, to heal, to affect positively.

i don't see it as good or bad, i think it's a neutral quality. simply a trait. and the research i note above seems to explain how that could be.
i can't help being this way, i just always have been. it has brought me an untold wealth of pain so it is a coin with two faces. the other face is that i can find deep joy in small and sometimes hard to spot things. 

i always felt i just feel everything too deeply. now i know that i do.  quite freeing, actually.

Hi Southbound!

Your definitions of each below and the examples to represent them are spot on.  I love the way you are able to present things with such clarity and make it entertaining!  A talent that I definitely do not have.  But Dutch Uncle is also able to make sense of things while presenting it in a light hearted way as well.

Southbound:

QuoteIt's not like that, Dutch Uncle. Sympathy is to feel for; empathy is to feel with. You've empathized with a number of posts of mine here. All it means is someone who 'gets' it.  Example: you're sitting beside someone who's talking about her sad feelings, and she stops because she's choked up. An apath (one who doesn't care) would change the subject quickly ("Just look at that sunset!"); a sociopath (who likes hurting people) would call her a pussy; while an empath would just sit with her and wait for her to make the next move (eg. grabbing you for a hug in floods of tears) or say the next words... which could be pretty much anything.

Apath and sociopath responses shut you up, and how! An empathic response lets you feel your feelings without judgment.

As someone who has been around PD's all their life and has a FOO and In-Laws as well that are either Apaths, Narcissists, and Sociopaths, Empathy is the one thing that I think I came away from it all with.  I learned to be attuned to my family and start looking for the underlying causes, reasons they were the way they were, and try to relate to it for survival.  There are only 3 people that I was never able to figure out - My Father, His Sister, and my Uncle's Wife.  There is no indication of any trauma that they ever suffered.  The only thing I can figure is that they were spoon fed and treated so special by their parents that they came away feeling superior, truly entitled, and ability for empathy for anyone, only cared about themselves and their own selfish interests, agendas. 

I also like the description from Dutch Uncle:

QuoteEmpathy involves feeling, sensing or thinking how another might experience, or has experienced, a certain event. But one always keeps an open eye, and/or mind, that something else, or something more, or something completely different is the case.

That is an excellent description.  An Empath is not a mind reader.  All you can do is try to really relate to a person based on your own past experiences and how you would feel if you were in their shoes.  Brene Brown is an resource to read about empathy versus sympathy.  I never really thought about it until I listened to one of her TED talks online, but sympathy really isn't a good thing.  Sympathy is really kind of a downer, it says that you feel sorry for someone but you don't really relate to what they are experiencing.  Where empathy says that you are listening and making the effort to understand and offer support to person.  Help them not feel alone and validation of the feelings they are experiencing.  It is much more comforting.  However, it is something that we are seeing less of from people as a result of social media.  The younger generation is not learning the same communication skills and are actually more isolated as result.  They find it hard to relate to other people face to face and do not really understand what empathy is.  I see it many times at work.  The younger ones are either very happy and empathetic or they are the other extreme and do not care about others and have no empathy.  It makes me sad because it feels like they are more robotic than an actual person.

Anyone that makes a regular habit of hurting you in the process of trying to seem empathetic is not an empathetic person at all.  It is a Narcissist or Histronic trying to present themselves in a different color, appear to be something they are not.  At the end of the day, they are lying to themselves and in the process of hurting others, in the end they are hurting themselves the most.  My parents have no friends, no life, do not even like each other.  They fight all the time and we truly fear that they will be on the 6 o'clock news sometime because one will kill the other.  I can't do that, I don't fight at all.  Because of them, I am anti everything they are.  I am starting to understand that and working to develop the true self I was meant to be.

I am also highly sensitive and hypervigilant.  I am very aware of it and I take things that are said, not said, or done in many cases much harder than I should.  I let these things hurt me and start obsessing about what is wrong with me (sorry, dutch uncle) and starting thinking I am the worst person in the world, nobody likes me, etc...  I have many people that I associate with work and probably would be supportive but I have too much fear of trusting anyone with what I am going through and risking anyone finding out and how the majority would treat me as a result.

This is a great thread!  Reading through it has helped me feel better today!

MaryAnn  :hug:   

It's important to remember not to confuse HSP and being an empath with empathy. They are very different things. Empathy and being able to feel for others is one thing, but being HSP and empath takes empathy to a whole new level. In my case I don't consider it a blessing at all nor do I personally consider it balanced 'normal' empathy. It goes far beyond the commonly accepted way of interacting and relating to others.

An empath picks up many non verbal cues others completely miss. Others emotional state floods your mind and heart. A room full of people is overwhelming. Body movements, minor facial expressions imperceptible to others, even someone's personal odor. You very literally pickup on others energy. It's not in the imagination and it's not in ones mind. Casually asking someone how they are or what's new confirms what I already had picked up. Their conversation confirms their emotional state.

For me being empath was, and still is, rooted in survival.  As a child having my mother enter a room and be able to pick up on her emotions without a word or so much as a look in my direction was critical to my survival. Being that much in tune meant the difference between . . . Well let's just leave that sentence there. Do I exit the room now while I still can? Do I stay and take my chances? Is this a minor blip I can help her smooth away or will this require more effort? How much will I have to fix her before I get to eat? Will I be able to eat? If I do eat will I be able to hold the food down? Being able to read her meant my physical life.

It was because there was no boundary between where she ended and I began, there was no "me" and there was no "her" - we were we. I was her emotional storage place. It was my job to take all her emptiness and make it better. Take her bad emotions as my own and give her all my good emotions. This is her expectation to this day. Therefore with everyone else in the world I met I didn't know where they end and I begin.

An empath cannot turn it off, cannot stop. The emotions and energy transfer and become part of you. Friends and family walk away feeling better but I was left feeling physically drained and in bed for sometimes days. It takes effort and training to know when to let others emotions in, how much to let in, how to process that emotion as someone else's and not your own. It is difficult, very difficult. The tendency is to build walls because just a little crack opens the floodgates. I have to manage my entire life flow.

There was some discussion about this early on here at OOTS and I'll see if I can find the link.

Butterfly:  that made me think-- yes I am highly sensitive and I notice a thousand things in my environment but I also tune out a great deal. And I misinterpret things due to anxiety in the moment. I am hypervigilant but that doesn't make me see things as they are. Once I talk to a person and hear what they say it gives a meaning to all the things I had observed.

butterfly what you write  is so helpful

QuoteAn empath picks up many non verbal cues others completely miss. Others emotional state floods your mind and heart. A room full of people is overwhelming. Body movements, minor facial expressions imperceptible to others, even someone's personal odor. You very literally pickup on others energy. It's not in the imagination and it's not in ones mind. Casually asking someone how they are or what's new confirms what I already had picked up. Their conversation confirms their emotional state.

exactly. and i think this is probably the reason i had to self isolate so completely. even from the last couple of friends who really weren't bad, they were lovely, but they made me feel overwhelmed just by being with them.  i couldn't understand why and feel guilty that i have just 'dumped' them. but i had to.

QuoteIt was because there was no boundary between where she ended and I began, there was no "me" and there was no "her" - we were we. I was her emotional storage place. It was my job to take all her emptiness and make it better. Take her bad emotions as my own and give her all my good emotions. This is her expectation to this day. Therefore with everyone else in the world I met I didn't know where they end and I begin.

yes, that's it exactly. this was my marriage. and to one degree or another all of my relationships, if i'm honest. i only realised recently that it was allowed for me to have personal boundaries. i am trying to learn and beginning to understand but i really don't have any practice at having my own personhood as distinct from others'.  i never did it before.  i don't understand enough yet to be able to do it properly.

and you're right, you can't turn it off. i am actually finding it so much more comfortable being as near alone as i can make it (excepting my kids and even that i find hard), that i worry a bit that when the time comes to re-engage with the world i shall just choose not to. becos truth is i don't really want to.  you say

QuoteI have to manage my entire life flow.

i think i have just cut off from mine completely. i know it can't be right, but i can't bear the idea of having to start it up again and get overwhelmed all over again.

would be glad of that link to previous, if u find it, might be helpful.

It's tough, I understand. Hopefully you can get to the point where although it can't be turned off it can be controlled. I don't want to be cold hearted and I don't want to isolate myself. I'm learning to take time for self care along with boundaries and feel better these days. It's a long way from where I want to be but it's a journey.

Here's the other link http://outofthefog.net/C-PTSD/forum/index.php?topic=546.0

I hope it helps.

thanks, that was a very interesting link. i can't believe how i never saw myself this way before; it explains a lot. it's come as a bit of a relief actually.

I am an empathic HSP.

There might be a correlation between empaths and HSP and CPTSD, but I would suggest that there is also an intervening variable(s).

It is my understanding, for example, that in an abusive family, the brunt of the abuse falls upon the HSP and/or empathic child. Those on our end of the temperament scale tend to be conscientious; to notice when others are 'off', while also having a difficult time conceiving of those who are so different than us (those who are so easily able to abuse others), so being to 'understanding' of abusers (read we make excuses and try harder where it is not warranted);and to want to be helpful. We are often also gifted in some way. The factors make us favourite targets of bullies, narcissists, psychopaths, and others of their ilk. If we grew up getting the worst of the abuse in the abusive home then we are even that much less able to defend ourselves against those who would do us harm outside our FOOs.

So, we are not so much more likely to get CPTSD as we are to be subjected to the conditions that could lead to a person getting CPTSD.

The good news is that as we learn to value ourselves, learn to make boundaries, and learn to be assertive about our wants and needs (both to ourselves and to others) then we become less vulnerable to those who would try to cause us harm.

The other good news is that even as we heal we get to keep our HSPness and empathic abilities <3 :D

Being a hsp feels like being an electrical wire without any plastic covering ---

Am learning to deal with the guilt - ie guilt of not being fully there for someone -
For example I've just spent time with a friend who talks - and talks and - talks and ....
Learning to butt in / change the subject / not fully listen are all things I am learning -
Also to 'be myself ' plain and simple

Apols if this post doesn't flow with previous
( see there I go again - worrying --- :)
Guilt my no 1 offender

Today I can perfectly imperfect and know I am good enough I am enough

Quote from: Butterfly on September 20, 2015, 02:00:27 PM

For me being empath was, and still is, rooted in survival.  As a child having my mother enter a room and be able to pick up on her emotions without a word or so much as a look in my direction was critical to my survival.
...
It was because there was no boundary between where she ended and I began, there was no "me" and there was no "her" - we were we. I was her emotional storage place. It was my job to take all her emptiness and make it better. Take her bad emotions as my own and give her all my good emotions. This is her expectation to this day. Therefore with everyone else in the world I met I didn't know where they end and I begin.

An empath cannot turn it off, cannot stop. The emotions and energy transfer and become part of you. Friends and family walk away feeling better but I was left feeling physically drained and in bed for sometimes days. It takes effort and training to know when to let others emotions in, how much to let in, how to process that emotion as someone else's and not your own. It is difficult, very difficult.

Wow, Butterfly, I don't think I've ever read a better description of how it was, and still is. And that goes to the heart of a question that's always haunted me. Might I have become less compulsively, exhaustively sensitive to others if my very existence hadn't depended on accurately reading, and endlessly serving, the needs of my mother? I applied the same principles to the rest of my family, to schoolmates, teachers, really anyone I came in contact with. I never quite understood why that annoyed her so much, since that was the "right" way to be. I do now of course: she owned me, and didn't like sharing my attention or devotion.

But there was no way to stop it. Not then, not ever. Not for her and not for me. I saw and sensed and felt constantly, like a dog sniffing the air and picking up a thousand more scents than those around me. What did they think, need, want, care about? How were they reacting to me? Was that approval or was it something else? Anything less than appreciation was instantly unbearable, and humiliating. That is one terrible way to live.

So while my innate empathy is a gift and talent, it is also a vestige of the twisted way I was raised. My mother was socially isolated and insulated by her family. She was hypersensitive to all criticism and "disloyalty" (meaning any disagreement or opposition). Her antennae and fragility seemed astute and sensitive to me, but it was the polar opposites of empathy - she was not aware of anyone else. As a kid, I knew that pleasing her was the only permissible way to be seen, or loved. Every child, indeed every adult, needs to be acknowledged, recognized, respected. Being understood, praised and loved are fundamental desires. But even when that doesn't happen, I think they can survive intact if their own internal mechanisms aren't interfered with, recalibrated to put others' feelings before their own.

Can one "know" how to help without acting? Without the guilt and draining sense responsibility? I think so. But like you, I don't want to turn cold hearted or oblivious, insensitive to those around me. As insensitive as they usually seem to be. Withdrawing has always been my default, because I've never quite learned how to temper the automatic desire to be of service, to treat their problems as my own. My solution - shutting down, shutting out - is no solution at all. The relief from people became a way of life, and left me as isolated, bereft and resentful as the histrionic woman who engendered it. That elusive middle ground of treading lightly seems farther and farther away. I miss people, I miss activities, the life I once knew. But that life took too much out of me, and left me with too little, exhausted and spent and, yes, not a little wounded. It's that self-pity I hate most, because I know it's of my own making. I keep wondering if the gift of perception can't be turned into something healthier, stronger, more productive.

Quote from: Boatsetsailrose on September 25, 2015, 09:15:29 PM
Being a hsp feels like being an electrical wire without any plastic covering ---

Am learning to deal with the guilt - ie guilt of not being fully there for someone -
For example I've just spent time with a friend who talks - and talks and - talks and ....
Learning to butt in / change the subject / not fully listen are all things I am learning -
Also to 'be myself ' plain and simple.

The stripped wire is a perfect analogy, I've often felt I lacked the natural insulation other people seemed to have...the ability to ignore (maybe not even see) or brush off things that would have triggered me, sent me reeling with embarrassment, shame or anger. Or guilt - oh, to have no lingering sense that you've failed someone and you must atone. I usually admire that reflexive self confidence in people. Struggling to feel less, sense less of what you're capable is strange, it can feel so superficial to not act on what's apparent. I think you're right: the trick is learning how to be there for ourselves first and foremost, even in small ways.

Missbliss- this is so interesting. And scary!

Thank you for sharing. This
Gee nerves that's it ! Have always felt 'nervess ' like jumping beans inside -
At times it goes when I exercise or have deep relaxation

I wonder how 'normal ' people feel

This thread continues to be so very helpful. Thank you all!

QuoteThe good news is that as we learn to value ourselves, learn to make boundaries, and learn to be assertive about our wants and needs (both to ourselves and to others) then we become less vulnerable to those who would try to cause us harm.

I like vanilla, this is exactly it and how it is I'm becoming balanced. For the most part my personal belief is other individuals do not intentionally intend to cause harm but the needy tend to latch on to empathetic helpers. Even personality disordered FOO doesn't set out to hurt, it's just their mode of operation and many are just oblivious to others (our) needs. Many are unaware they are wearing on me and its up to me to speak up. I was raised to be the family fixer of all things and carried that tendency throughout my life into other relationships.

Reading information on codependency helped somewhat but a recent read really helped me fill in the final pieces to the picture. The book "I don't have to make everything all better (http://outofthefog.net/forum/index.php?topic=20833.0)" and the other book that helps so much was Boundaries (http://outofthefog.net/forum/index.php?topic=27228.0) by Cloud and Townsend.

Both those books are helping me balance as Coda says to not "turn cold hearted or oblivious, insensitive to those around me" but rather to empower others to solve or choose not to solve their own problems. After all, who am I to tell others how best to fix their problems? Only they know what they can or want to do to help themselves.

The Boundaries book helped me balance having needs. As the family fixer I was trained not to have needs in the first place and if I have them I certainly didn't speak about them or ask for help. There was no help to be found so what was the point. To that end I am very self-sufficient and don't really have needs beyond companionship. Both books are helping me find safe people and simple companionship.

QuoteMy solution - shutting down, shutting out - is no solution at all.

so true

QuoteSo while my innate empathy is a gift and talent, it is also a vestige of the twisted way I was raised

yes for me too and I am finding ways to leverage empathy as a good thing and limit or eliminate damage.

QuoteI keep wondering if the gift of perception can't be turned into something healthier, stronger, more productive.

I am finding it is possible.

Miss Bliss, The above answers the question you had posted which by the way kind of got lost so I edited your post to end the quotation of the previous post where I think you meant it to end.

Quotelike being an electrical wire without any plastic covering ---

Boatdailrose, what a very appropriate analogy. And Miss Bliss neat info on the myelin! Yes nightly and morning stretching does help so much with some very low yoga music and dim lights.

Southbound, soul murder, thanks for that and I'm sorry you've had that experience plus the other with the interview.


Finally don't get me wrong on this, there are certain things about being HSP and empathic that I simply cannot change.

The HSP side: Bright lights and loud noise are things that always have and most likely always will cause physical stress and result in mental and emotional stress as well. Therefore I need to know and understand myself, my need to decompress and to grab some calming alone time with some soothing self-care, a blanket, maybe a candle, some stretching. I've always been that way, able to handle being in a social situation but with a driving need to decompress and self soothe daily.

The empathic side: Feeling the feelings of others in a way that people who are not empathic do not understand. Feeling others energy is something I can control but not eliminate. Walking into a room and feeling the feelings, being in the presence of others my brain knows how to read subtle body language, tone of voice, minor facial muscle movement and this is not something I can turn unlearn. What I have learned is to NOT take away others emotions. To let them keep them and feel them, to validate them rather than take and carry their burden for them. I can listen and walk away whole. This is how I'm using my being empathic to be empathetic, a strength rather than a vulnerability, something I value rather than dread about myself.

I wonder if this can come in a spectrum or that it is related to one of the other earlier issues which was when I felt less human so that was part of this.  Sometimes it seems like I have the somewhat emotional empathy.  I have this intellectual empathy too because whether I sense anything I am 3-4 steps ahead whether it is not caring having it consume me or dealing with a perp.

I have recurrent manias in summers without treatment and everything is light and loud.  There are different types of empaths too.  Some seem to have every other symptom of NPD but the lack of empathy part but my mom's borderline PD made me able to shut any of that out.

I definitely am an empath, and hsp I think.  Sometimes in groups of charged people I struggle to keep my clinical detachment, the sheilds I can sometimes erect.  If not done before or they are breached, I think I get triggered.  Hence I hardly leave the tent. 
But I have pondered this for some time.  I think most people are capable of being empaths.  At least it seems to me emotions spread...like panic or anger in a crowd.  There is a group dynamic in this.  As all emotion is a chemical release in the brain, and pheromones as well..it is transmitted subconsciously, but it is transmitted.  Laughter catches as well as tears.  The apaths have just got real solid sheilds...but they can be breached.
If you have ever been to a southern Baptist revival, the joy and awe makes the hair on my arms stand upright.  Hence uplifting.
Anyway, my musings are just that. :blahblahblah:

Great to log onto this post today ...

I keep meaning to get into my daily routine some energetic protection such as grounding and shield -
I will endure to do this :)
Have learnt over time how to download -
Water and burning incense help me ( not together ha ha
I have just been away for the wk end to stay with family and friends ( not something I do often)
Can see where I have grown and work still in progress - was really good to get the chance to evaluate this as I am working to have more people in my life -
Being in the company of others being open yet in my own energy - that energetic balance -
I love 💓 Being an empath despite its obvious difficulties -
Being in nature and the connection - sensitivity to others - the need for calm quiet and spiritual side of my life - the connection with other empaths
Saying that though many days / times I wish I wasn't and could be harder - but then I would t get the life I have
Celebrating and experiencing this life in all its wonderful glory - blessed to have the life I have in its simple form and have relative freedom
Thank u for listening I feel in a lot of gratitude at the moment 💓🌸

Found a great series of articles breaking down empathy into six components. From what I've read it sounds like many of us may be stuck in Emotion Contagion:

QuoteIf your experience of empathy is primarily unregulated Emotion Contagion, such that you act as an emotional sponge, to the point where you become overwhelmed by the emotions of others, you'll probably be unable to provide much support to them. You'll be like the children in the experiment who dissolve into the emotion of the experimenter, and can neither soothe themselves nor offer any support – you'll shut down.

This link is the first in the series
http://karlamclaren.com/the-six-essential-aspects-of-empathy-part-1-emotion-contagion/

It makes sense reading through the descriptions of the six components of empathy that to being able to regulate the Emotion Contagion into something productive for both ourselves and others is possible. For me since uPDm isn't able to emotionally regulate coupled with emotional enmeshment meant my survival as a dependent child that's what left me stuck in Emotion Contagion. As an adult I've developed some of the other parts of empathy but can see more clearly in this article what needs further development.

Wow, Butterfly--thank you  :thumbup: for this insightful pointer to what may be going on with this potentially overwhelming topic. As is evident too in the readers' comments section below the article, it's very hard to wrap the right words around the 'ins' (empath contagion/absorption) and 'outs' (empathy). It's a tad scary, even--an emotional mix that rides heavy on the psyches of cptsd-survivors, I surmise.

Two parts of my own life come to mind with this--hospice and pre-school work. I felt drawn to engage with these despite intense social anxiety. By most standards I did well in these areas where lots of empathy is required. But my empath side was able to access wisdom and energy I'd never found elsewhere. What seems to have been key for me was the roles I was in were judgement-free zones, where I felt alright to be 'me', for a change, enabling me to share and display empathy.

This was radically opposed to my early experience of life. Alas, while I'd like to say these experiences put me over the top, I still struggle mightily in most situations with it--I think it's still the old fear of judgement riding high. So any insights such as those that McLaren suggests are most welcome.

Thanks again!

   

I had to look up the words empath and HSP, came to some new age page that likes to take every day things and give them special, almost magical status.

I agree that through our suffering we can better empathise with those who are also marginalised, unfairly treated and not heard by society, I have had some pretty nasty conflicts with my colleagues in healthcare when they wrongly judge a patient as being violent, difficult or uncooperative, when all people need is an empathetic ear and a little time. I have been accused of pandering and setting dangerous precedents - a patient turns up without an appointment and I will see them, others would send them away despite having nothing better to do. I have been ostracised by colleagues by not conforming to their point of view.

however, I don't think that I am connected to the "collective unconscious," neither do I think others are. I did go through a spiritual phase for a few years, I eventually came to the conclusion that there is a lot of snake oil in the mix, a lot of people repeating the same old wisdom and pseudo-science to the same broken people who never seem to get any better. people are getting very wealthy at the expense of people like us. There is value in meditation and self awareness of course - I would argue that that is not spirituality - quite the reverse. When we are broken we will clutch at any straw to try to gain a grain of comfort or a short cut to ending our inner pain.

I am good at reading and interpreting body language and non-verbal communication, it has already been discussed on this forum a few weeks back that our learned hyper vigilance means that we are always reading the emotional landscape for threats. This was essential as a child so we could try to pre-empt parental moods so that if possible we could anticipate trouble. Even now that I have such limited contact with my family, if I have a conversation with my mother, just by her demeanor I can tell how a potential visit might turn out or whether I should sever contact for several months or years.

This could be seen as a gift or curse. I think its both, it can be a self fulfilling prophecy, that we can anticipate things going wrong but we could use that to turn things around .... if we had the interpersonal skills

Well said.  :thumbup:

Steamy wrote:

"There is value in meditation and self awareness of course - I would argue that that is not spirituality..."

Maybe there is no no spirituality as a separate category. Rather, ALL of life is spiritual, all inclusive 100% of the time, and doesn't fit neatly into what someone tells others they have to believe (religion, system, technique, etc).

This notion is reflected in some first nations/native North American languages--a few didn't even have a translatable word that meant 'spirituality'. Each may have had beliefs and notions about ultimate reality, but many also considered them more flexibly, as signposts rather than definitions. Some cultures even valued tricksters for this reason--individuals who played devil's advocate and provided a counterpoint. What modern cultures refer to as spiritual concepts were embedded within the overall scheme of things.

In the end words didn't matter as much as how one lived one's daily life. 'Spirituality' was thus freed from its little boxes.

Indeed, that is very true. Its time for some Gin spirit.  :hug:

Im one. I have a different theory. In my case, I think the epathic trait was overly developed as protection. I knew when there was negative emotional energy was around even when I was little. I feel like it was a protection mechanism.

 - everyone - this is an excellent reference for emotions, healing, empathy, etc ... Karla McLaren is great !!!     http://karlamclaren.com

this book is very good - I've read it about ten times = Born for Love: Why Empathy Is Essential--and Endangered by Bruce D. Perry = I cried and then marvel at the revelations ... it all comes from how we were raised in the environment as children ... we are not born this way - we are born to love but if that is not nourished and nurtured in a respectful manner or at all, we become impaired - this applies to everyone - there are no exceptions ...

What happened to us is not too difficult to figure out - it's how to repair what has happened to us so that we might function as best we can for the remainder of our lives. Read Read Read - do all you can to gather as much information you can and take care of yourself and love yourself first. It takes time for all the info to settle in if you just keep reading ... but you too can get there - just keep pushing forward. After all, there is no other way to go ...

Peace and Love, from V

Hi everyone. I haven't read all of the posts in this thread, so forgive me if I repeat stuff people have already said. I definitely identify as a HSP and like coda, for my entire childhood and adult life, this has been treated like something that is very wrong with me. I was told by one psychologist that I'm hyper-vigilant; I'm always checking other peoples' facial expressions way more than is necessary because I'm always checking to see if they're angry with me. My mother programmed me to know that upsetting her in any way would lead to extreme violent consequences for me, so I still live in constant fear of upsetting people in any way.

It's just my theory, but I think that's why most people with C-PTSD are HSP. Our survival depended on our ability to efficiently read others' emotions and react fast. I think being an HSP can be a gift if you reach a place in your recovery where you're able to choose when you want to use those empathy skills, and not use them when you don't have to or whenever you're afraid. Obviously, I'm not at that place in my recovery yet. But ya, I think it's possible that being an HSP can be a good thing once you get a handle on it.

Also, to all the new people: Am I the only one who's freaking out at how cool it is that we can have a conversation like this and use the words "us" and "we" to refer to other people who have so many of the same problems and personality traits that we do? My whole life I was made to feel like a freak by my family members and psychologists, but now I feel so much better knowing that there are other people who are so similar to me!

Ditto as an HSP, the book was so enlightening.  In some cultures, HSP's are actually valued. 

Quote from: GettingThere link=topic=1810.msg20003#msg20003 date=1452293689. Ii]definitely[/i] identify as a HSP and like coda, for my entire childhood and adult life, this has been treated like something that is very wrong with me. I was told by one psychologist that I'm hyper-vigilant; I'm always checking other peoples' facial expressions way more than is necessary because I'm always checking to see if they're angry with me. My mother programmed me to know that upsetting her in any way would lead to extreme violent consequences for me, so I still live in constant fear of upsetting people in any way. It's just my theory, but I think that's why most people with C-PTSD are HSP. Our survival depended on our ability to efficiently read others' emotions and react fast

Yes that was certainly what it was like growing with a covert NDPM for me. The merest arching of an eyebrow, tightening of the lips, a certain tone - all signals that she was displeased and life would then become one of walking in eggshells and tiptoeing.   In a book I'm reading (Childhood Disrupted)', there is woman who only felt safe at night when she could hear her mother snoring.  Then and only then did she feel she could relax her guard. l knew exactly what she meant.

I also read somewhere that along with being HSP comes being armoured, tensed to deal with threat and that would be me also.  So  I am starting with a psychologist this week to work on bio- and neurofeedback so I can learn to bring the hyper vigilance and armouring down.  Fingers crossed!

Kizzie, good luck getting started on psychotherapy. Let us know your progress. I too lived with a mother like that and I have read a library of books read and therapists visited. Check out EMDR therapy - it's very good and it helpd me tremendously and of course I had a good psychologist - not a "therapist" so make sure you do shop well for a professional that suits your needs. I finally realized I needed a higher degree of help than a corner store therapist. Although good for some, I needed someone with more education and experience. And I found her and she was and still is my angel. Finding that balance as you progress can also be difficult as we continue to beat ourselves up when we are not perfect - because that is the way we were trained ... any small move outside the boundaries did not go unnoticed and was punished so therefore we strive for nothing but perfection and why? we are not perfect souls - we are here to learn and live an unperfect life so that we can improve ... having to live with that as a child is unbearable and so abusive that I can't even tell you where I would be able to begin. Got to run for now but much love and luck ... V

Tks V, the fellow I'm seeing is a psychologist and comes highly recommended.  I hope the bio/neuro feedback will help me to be able to loosen, relax, armour down, unclench ....  Anyway, I will post about it as I go along.

Best of luck with your new therapy Kizzie!!  :bigwink:

Tks GettingThere!

Waterman said: "I believe there is no such thing as overly sensitive."  :yeahthat:

This entire post says it so beautifully--something to absorb, to realize that true sensitivity is a strength to be treasured.

Thank you!

I'm having issues controlling my empath paranoia. It seems to be everywhere. Its quite overwhelming and feel like I just can't get away from it.  Its quite a horrible feeling and i'm feeling quite trapped. how do you ignore it? Its given me CPTSD. It feels like a permanent situation that just won't go away. it's a curse at the moment. Is there an off switch? or technique of controlling it?

Hi Everyone.  Newbie here.   :wave:  Frist post.   :wave: 

I have always been an HSP and Empath.  It's interesting to note how many people with CPTSD identify with these traits.  This is an intriguing thread.  Thank you.

Hi CheeseLikesCereal  :wave:

Welcome to out of the Storm, I'm glad you found us.

I'd like to take the opportunity to point out our Guidelines for All Members and Guests (http://outofthefog.net/C-PTSD/forum/index.php?topic=1616.0) to you. They are here to ensure this a safe environment for you and it will give you an idea of the community we create with each other.

Glad to meet you,
:hug:
Dutch Uncle.

I learnt about HSP ten years ago when I found an HSP board which helped me understand a lot about myself and from that I learnt that I was an empath as well.

Just me
That is a really good point --- it's like red alert radar ...

v,

i don't know of any switch to turn off empathy.  i do believe, however, that sometimes, for some people, empathy of great proportions can be turned into a positive with a change of perspective.  can this help bring you closer to people?  can it stir your creative juices in a positive way?  can you utilize it as a warning device in your life that will help you avoid negative or dangerous people?  and, conversely, can it help your ability to 'feel' if someone might be worth taking a chance with as far as a relationship goes (whatever shape or form that relationship might take)?

i am curious to know how this has caused your c-ptsd.   i haven't heard of this yet, but am interested.

kizzie,

best to you on your new adventure.  i hope you find wonderful results.

Hi fellow HSPs,  :wave:
Before I found out that I was HSP, I thought all people would experience the world as I did and suffer as much. I thought they could just cope better. And if people laughed out loud near me, I thought that they would cause me discomfort on purpose.
When I started reading about HSPs, I started asking people directly, if a sound would cause them physical pain. They said no. Some people actually enjoy loud music! I cannot fathom this. Most people actually filter incoming sensory stimuli. They can sit in a restaurant and focus on what the person sitting opposite them is saying. I can't follow a group conversation or a conversation taking place in a noisy or crowded place. Every sound is equally salient and enters unfiltered into my brain.
I thought all people would see sounds as colors and hear every letter of the alphabet and number in a different color. Then I found out it is called synesthesia. No wonder I get sensory overstimulation often, when I both see and hear sounds!
In theory, I would be able to enjoy little details of life that other people don't notice. Or be in rapture about a painting or sunset. I do appreciate beauty, but I just don't experience such positive emotions. People have told me that I have artistic talents, since I have such a good eye for details. But I don't find time to paint because I can't get a grip on my everyday life.
So, like most of you, I'm quite skeptical of seeing HSP as a "gift". I'd rather call it "sensory processing disorder."
I've been reading about the correlation between HSP and C-PTSD. Highly sensitive people are in fact traumatized more easily. Neurotypical children are more resilient. HSPs are especially prone to C-PTSD, when their perceptions and emotions were never validated. Also, trauma can cause some heightened sensitivity.
HSP is an inborn trait that about 20% of the population has. There are visible neurological differences in the brain structure. Also 20% of mammals have it. It helps the species survive, since the highly sensitive ones among them notice danger sooner and discover hidden sources of food. In hunter-gatherer societies, the HSPs are the shamans and highly revered. Unfortunately for us, in our modern society, it is neither approved of nor being considered.
:band:
:aaauuugh:

Quote from: sanmagic7 on August 11, 2016, 10:26:05 PM
v,

i don't know of any switch to turn off empathy.  i do believe, however, that sometimes, for some people, empathy of great proportions can be turned into a positive with a change of perspective.  can this help bring you closer to people?  can it stir your creative juices in a positive way?  can you utilize it as a warning device in your life that will help you avoid negative or dangerous people?  and, conversely, can it help your ability to 'feel' if someone might be worth taking a chance with as far as a relationship goes (whatever shape or form that relationship might take)?

i am curious to know how this has caused your c-ptsd.   i haven't heard of this yet, but am interested.

Hi Sanmagic7,

Here is my 2 cents of why being an empath could cause C-PTSD:

As an empath, I experience other people's emotions as my own. Or even stronger than my own. I can't tell whether the emotion I am experiencing is my own or someone else's. I am highly sensitive to criticism, and I perceive acutely if someone is displeased. I don't know the reason, since I cannot read minds, but I automatically think I have done something wrong. When I grew up, I acutely felt my mother's depression and other constant negative moods. I experienced her lack of positive response to me as criticism and contempt. Every verbal abuse was magnified in my mind.
No wonder that HSP children are much more affected by trauma and abuse than neurotypical children!
Crowds totally overwhelm me. I don't look people in the eyes but look at a distant spot behind their heads, so that my eyes are unfocused, when I talk to them. Meeting new people overwhelms me, since I perceive so much of the other person and it's a lot to take in. When someone is in need of help, I feel it, but usually I feel too overwhelmed to actually help. Then I feel bad about myself.
I haven't found a switch to turn off the oversensitivity to other people's emotions, either.
Nor does It bring me closer to people. I am generally wary of people and their emotions. Being around people can be so exhausting! I need a lot of alone time to recoop. Mostly, I avoid close relationships. I love other people and I do want to be around them, but I get so easily overwhelmed. If I meet a "dangerous" person, I feel compassion for them, want to make them feel better, and feel compulsively drawn to them....

thanks, chaosqueen.

i know i have always been hyper-sensitive to other people in pain, especially when i was very young, but i never used to be too bothered by noise until about 20 yrs. ago, when i began getting sick.  i went to concerts, i was fine in crowds, loud noises didn't bother me - i loved being in bars and hanging around loud, rowdy people.  i still laugh loudly, but as the symptoms of my c-ptsd have strengthened, it's been almost in direct contrast to the amount of stimulation i can take, which is very little.

conversely, i had built a pretty tough shell around myself, and could deal with clients in all kinds of pain without feeling a thing.   i had also protected myself so well that i had no sense of compassion for friends, etc.   nowadays, i don't think i'd be able to do my job as therapist very well at all.  i'd be crying all over the place right along with whoever was in my office!  luckily, i'm retired, so it's a moot point.   and, i can barely get through a tv series without shedding tears for one reason or another.  weird how this has worked.

i think, when i was asking those questions, i was thinking of being an 'empath' in a different way.  i understand now what you meant, and can see that my questions didn't really relate to what you've been talking about.  i hope i didn't offend. 

Sanmagic7,
No, no, you didn't offend in any way! This is just what I think about being an empath. Probably everyone defines it differently for themselves.

Thank you for your sharings. I forget I am an empath/ hsp and go into thinking I'm just weird so thank u for helping me remember and that I can stop beating myself ( such a common occurance I might add

I bought a tuning fork ( the cheap one you can buy in music shops ) I read it rebalances internal energy .. I love it u bang it on something hard and they put it near an ear and send it over the head to the other ear .. I really like how it makes me feel
I find anything I can do to 're feel being in my body helps .. I've put my yoga mat out permanently now and do 10 mins stretching - I'm even doing head stands and I find it re calibrates me ... Dr v bessal talks about body work being so valuable in his book

o, boatsetsailrose, i'm glad you can stop beating yourself up for something innate within and about you.  you're not weird, (or we all are who are hsp's!  lol!!!) and you're not alone.  i'm discovering that lately my sensitivity toward others has been ramped up.  i don't know exactly why, but i'm now understanding those who wrote that it can be a curse because it makes me feel horrible for others who have suffered.  maybe it's because i'm beginning to unblock myself from feeling the good from others - what a revelation this might be!

i've been working on being able to feel the kindness, caring, and love from others, but that might mean that, at the same time, everything that had been blocking those positives, as they dwindle, i can now feel even more of the negatives as well.  o dear - a blessing and a curse.  crapola! 

so be it.  i guess i'll have to learn how to balance this, temper it, something.   how to allow the pain of others go through me without hurting me, while allowing the goodness of others become one within me.  sounds like a project.  we'll see what happens.  maybe construct a metaphorical pain shield of some kind.  if i don't, i'll be crying all the time!