My family is extremely manipulative. I was literally driven insane. I'm deeply traumatized and I still can't wrap my head around all the manipulations. There was so much gaslighting and blaming and shaming, that I'm always thinking I probably saw it wrong. That they are sweet and I am horrible.
My kid lives with my dad.
My mum and dad have played everyone. My brothers think I'm the manipulator. I might have a dash of autism and this mostly shows in me being naive and not grasping "pretend"-situations. I do not manipulate. Quite the opposite: I was extremely unstrategical. I blurt out whatever I think. They also played my kid. He doesn't dare say anything, and he totally loves my dad and sees him as the hero. They played the child therapist who walked with us for years. She sees there is a systemic problem, but after years and years she still doesn't believe me when I say there is a problem in my family member themselves (rather than just between us). She thinks it would be good for my kid to stay with my dad.
My kid himself has given off signals. But I was so ill that I didn't and couldn't fight for him. Every time I came out of dissociation, I collapsed so badly, that nobody would believe me and I was hospitalized and I got talked back into denial by the MH team.
And example of what happened: kid said to me he didn't dare go against my dad ever, because he was scared of him. On the phone, with dad next to him. I had no way to come visit him. I called hours later to discuss it. I got kiddo on the phone totally upset, crying out loud. He was making up excuses why really he didn't mean it. He said dad kept him awake and he just wanted to sleep. And dad was so sad because of how horrible he was for saying this. I tried to talk with dad about it. On the record (text). He accused me of being a fantasizer and a manipulator. He convinced my brothers I am. He convinced everyone. The way he was talking about it on the phone showed triumph in his voice over his own lies and my upset about my kid. I then collapsed into psychosis. After which he convinced everyone: see, she is crazy, I'm the rescuer, don't let her near her kid.
Kid now defends dad. Brothers defend dad. I have lashed out at dad, and he probably made records of me being angry, showing everyone how mean and angry I am (he has * destroyed me and is doing the same to my kid...of course I'm angry).
How on earth can I protect my kid? Help. I can't bear it anymore. My kid too starts to see me as the bad one, because my dad tells him that in many shapes and forms. Whenever I'm defending myself, I'm being "manipulative" too and pulling my kids other arm...which I do not want.
I'm sorry Marianne, I don't have children myself. Just want to reach out and say that I hear you. :hug:
Marianne my heart breaks for you and your boy. I don't have much advice but to try to find the best child custody lawyer and the best mental healthcare you can find and afford so you can heal and you can get competent assistance in getting your son to the best place for him whether that is you, or someone who is not also your abuser.
Taking care of yourself so you can give your son the stability he needs is what you are working on right now and so important and you are really doing a good job. Truly Marianne.
There's a whole lifetime of a parent child relationship ahead of you, including once he is 18 and free to be wherever he wishes. Even if he is brainwashed a bit by your parents there will come a time he's going to want to try out a true relationship with you. He'll need you to be as healed from your traumas as you can be so you can be the mom you want to be when he is free to choose if not before then.
I truly am sorry. I am a parent and it is heartbreaking. I also grew up with my mentally ill mom and that was beyond hard. But what was hardest was that she was never able to heal enough to have a normal relationship with all the way up until her death.
The parent child relationship doesn't end at 18. I know you want to be his parent now, to save him now from the people who hurt you, I know it feels hopeless and helpless. But really, there are many years ahead for your relationship. Keep swimming, Marianne.
Marianne, I'm in a rush as usual, but if you can bear it and are not triggered over at OOTF, there will be a ton of information over there on this kind of problem that you have described. OOTF has far more mbrs than OOTS, so often more posts, and OOTF has a slightly different focus. For us OOTS mbrs, we work on ourselves here. Over at OOTF they do also work on themselves but it's especially for people dealing with family mbrs or other people in their lives with a personality disorder (PD), whether officially diagnosed or not. I don't really know if my own FOO mbrs have a PD but they're obviously pretty disordered - they manipulate etc etc the whole nine yards. It sure sounds to me as if your FOO mbrs are also pretty disordered - a dysfunctional FOO.
The only problem I sometimes have at OOTF is I can get triggered. Especially in earlier days because imo there's a certain overlap between PD symptoms and cptsd symptoms. One HUGE difference is that we over here on OOTS are working to change and most of the PD people discussed on OOTF are not. So if it helps you, try reading there. I get support and compassion here on OOTS far more than on OOTF though. Try https://www.outofthefog.net/forum/index.php?board=4.0 or possibly here https://www.outofthefog.net/forum/index.php?board=9.0 or here https://www.outofthefog.net/forum/index.php?board=2.0
Thank you.
NM
I deleted my posts. I was totally panicking about the whole situation. And kiddo isn't helped by that even one bit. I stopped the panic, somehow.
I do feel awful still, because I messed up. My kid now feels unsafe with both me and my dad, and withdraws. I feel very guilty and I'm thinking how to correct this. I'm also a bit pissed off, because I've begged for help everywhere I could think of since he was born. And haven't gotten it.
My current MH and social work team now are really trying though. They don't know what to do. But they do wish to help. I have asked them to help me be stronger and less reactive. My reactions are also harming my kid. Whatever buttons are pushed, whatever feelings triggered and games played, I have to keep my cool. Just have to. I'm trying to make the moments I have with my kid pleasant. We joked and played today. I'm really seeking how to make him feel safe, and asked help with that again. I gave him explicit "permission" to be angry with me or voice his needs, even if he thinks that makes me sad. Really don't know what else to do.
I also decided to quit trying with my dad. I tried again to kindly involve him in a "how can we make things better for kiddo"-talk. He refused, got angry, said he is basicly perfect, and then called up my MH team the next day to say how he cared for kiddo and how me being unwell was bad for my kid. And tried to get my medical information, behind my back. If he really cares, why does he actively kick me down all the time, when I start to stand up? Why doesn't he want to look at himself?
I'm really aiming to recover and be there for kid. I'm also trying to find the right people to put around us. Someone he feels safe with as well, and who doesn't report to me and my dad, but is just there for my son. I will stop fight with dad and stop begging him to please change some things so that I can recover and kid can feel safe. It only makes it worse. I'm hoping if I'm consistently non-reactive, stable and gentle in every circumstance, my dad may change as well.
He isn't evil, I think. I suspect he is very frightened as well. Both of my PTSD (which he doesn't dare admit his own influence on) and my mum dying a few years back and him losing control over my kid and all that. I'm trying to not expect anything at all from him, not respond, not fight, not anything. And trying to forgive, because my kid is only further hurt if he senses I'm angry with my dad.
I really have no idea how...but I must for my kids sake.
I'm really not sure what to think about my dad. He said he would play nasty games over my kid's head, and I wouldn't even recognize his games (he said the latter with someone else there). I am not sure if he is really purposefully playing calculating games at my cost and my son's cost. Or he is just frightened and stressed and acting from pain...in which case I could reach him by being non-reactive and stable and gentle. I think it is actually the latter, but I'm scared.
Quote from: Marianne on July 16, 2022, 10:43:59 PM
He said he would play nasty games over my kid's head, and I wouldn't even recognize his games (he said the latter with someone else there).
He said what?!? I'm
so sorry Marianne at the way your dad is treating you. Even if he is reacting out of a place of pain, this is no way to treat you or your kid. Kids pick up on all sorts. I'm not in the situation obviously but it sounds pretty purposeful to me, based on quite a few points, not just on one. Even when I am frightened, stressed and acting from pain or more likely from trauma, I do not threaten anybody, except with a direct consequence,
eg. to FOO: when you contact my friends to gather information about me instead of asking me directly, I reduce contact to you. This is not playing a nasty game, it is setting and enforcing limits.
Over at OOTF there is a rule called the 3 Cs:
I didn't cause it, I can't control it and I can't cure it. You did not cause this whole issue with your father. Unfortunately you cannot control it. I know that we tend to learn as traumatised children it's somehow on us and that if we really try hard, try our absolute best to be the most well-behaved and/or helpful kid on the planet, taking all the burden off our caregivers, those caregivers will love us and look after us properly and everything will be good. Usually that traumatised child is still in us somewhere, desperately trying still but actually we cannot control the behaviour of others. I tried with FOO for years, decades even, as an adult to explain and give details and examples :blahblahblah: :blahblahblah: :blahblahblah: I still am tempted to try in fact. As a child/teen I tried to 'not react' as I was told, I tried to be peaceful, I tried to be a 'good girl' but sadly it didn't and doesn't work. I alone could not and cannot cure the dysfunction in my FOO.
We are here for you. Even if mbrs are not responding to your post much - because who knows what is going on in their lives rn, this is something more people than me have been through or are still in. I'm still in it in fact, but further along than I was.
It's really tough, hang in there, and know that as Armee says, you are a good mom because you are there for your kid. You obviously care about your kid. May you feel the good, healing, protective energy from OOTS! :hug:
Thank you so much. I keep on thinking he can't be THIS bad. Until my mum died, my dad was on the background. He never protected me. But I somehow thought he didn't really understand. That he too was a victim. He always presented himself as the honest, stable, neutral party...to others as well. He recently told my kid: I never lie. The *. Put people believe him, because he often is honest (and then when it is needed for his own gain, he is totally dishonest, but everyone has this picture of him as having high integrity).
He and my mum just played it so smart, and me so dumb, that I totally lost my kid. I loved them, my parents, which weakened me. My kid is totally withdrawn within himself. He thinks I'm mean, and I'm instable (which I was). He dislikes the things that I value because my parents taught him that consistently. My dad did things like push all my buttons on the phone. Then if I got angry and started to shout that he needed to stop (which is also wrong) and I couldnt take his bad behaviour anymore. And he would be extremely sweet voiced suddenly. I was like: *, is he recording? And after a while my kid said: I know it is all your fault, because I heard the conversations and you were angry and granddad was kind.
My kid doesn't dare come to me anymore and the child therapist tends to listen to that, while I think: if a kid is in a bad situation, he might not want to leave, but you may want to ignore that for his best interest in the long-run. My dad told him he is not safe here. He defends my dad to me and others. Tells his opinions as his own. And tells me all the time "no I can't do that, because that wouldn't be good for granddad, and I pity granddad".
I also fought back in front of my kid, which was stupid. It hurt my kid as well. And I didn't get him away there. I was constantly triggered, which my kid saw, and he sees me as the nasty one. Which was exactly the purpose...and I should have known better. No idea how to help my kid. I'm legally totally losing. My dad says he has all sorts of things to use against me. I don't know what. But I'm scared.
Gentle hugs if that feels safe for you, Marianne. If not :umbrella: to ward off all that bad stuff your dad is piling on.
Thank you so much. Sorry for sharing so much here. I'm just despairing.
It is fine to write a lot about your situation here. Sometimes that is one of the only things we can do to release the pressure a bit and also to be understood and simply 'heard'.
One thing that also can be helpful is to write a Recovery Letter https://cptsd.org/forum/index.php?topic=262.0 things you would like to tell your dad or even your son that you can't actually say in the current situation. It can be cathartic. It could also be too early. I have some of these letters that started out: "Dear FOO, Blank." My mind was in such turmoil I couldn't write any words directed towards FOO though my mind was full of them. So I kept writing elsewhere on the forum.
Gentle hugs if safe and/or :umbrella:
Hi Marianne,
I haven't got any children myself, so I feel a bit helpless to know what to say to you in relation to things you've said about your situation, but I do want to say that I very much hope that you get support and help with everything - I really feel for the fact you are despairing, and I wish there is something that can help you to feel better and to find some things that help.
Sending you a gentle hug of support, if that's ok :hug:
Hope :)
I think you should contact Child Protective Services because your parents are abusing your child and traumatizing his psyche. Because of this, he can face serious health problems in the future. Children are very fragile, and their psychological health is like plasticine; it is just being formed. I still do not have children, but I help children in need. On this site https://fosterplus.org (https://fosterplus.org), I learned a lot about how to take care of children. I am sure they will be able to help you; moreover, you will learn a lot about support for children.
Hey Marianne
I typically don't give advice. I might occasionally make suggestions, but normally I prefer to always share my story so that others can decide for themselves if my experience can help them. This is because I'm TERRIFIED of hurting anyone with my advice. I'm not a professional, but I am someone who has been blamed for other people's misery my entire life, so I'm very, very squeamish about ever saying "Here's my advice." In this particular post, I DO offer some advice, but please, please, please take it with a grain of salt. If anything I say makes sense to you, great, but if not, please just ignore it. This situation is so triggering for me that I can't just leave the thread without offering what I do believe I know about coercive control in dysfunctional families.
I'm so sorry to hear about your entire story. How your dad has turned your siblings and your son against you. That is what my family did to me too. That's why your story is such a trigger for me. On July 13th, Armee said something in a post on this thread: She said, "Taking care of yourself so you can give your son the stability he needs is what you are working on right now and so important and you are really doing a good job. Truly Marianne."
I think that's a great comment. There are a lot of triggers for me in this thread, but not so bad that I can't stay with it. One is that your dad continues to manipulate you, your siblings, and your son, over and over again. You are asking yourself if he's really that evil. Not knowing your story intimately, I can't say for sure, but I DO remember spending yeeeeears asking myself the same question about my soulless, evil elder sister, dad and brother who, in the end, turned out to be a big fat YES! YES THEY ARE truly evil from the soles of their feet to the tops of their heads.
The greatest day of my life was the day I finally stopped making excuses for them and gave myself permission to just see them for what they really, truly were. Hateful, jealous, controlling, sociopaths. I finally came to fully accept that they did NOT love me. They loved messing with me, but I was just another family dog to kick. Fully accepting the truth I'd spent my lifetime trying to not accept set me free!!!.
What I know about the soulless monsters in my family is that the continually convinced me that their evil ways were them taking good care of me. Every mean, horrible thing they did to me was "for my own good." (LIARS!!!!!) They claimed that they could see how crazy I was so they were helping me handle a life I wasn't able to handle on my own. (LIARS!!!!) Of course, when they'd finally get me to completely fall apart and start screaming gibberish and swearing and at them, that would just be used as evidence that I really was crazy.
My tactic, when faced with situations like yours, is I know...I KNOW beyond the shadow of a doubt, that ANY contact with sociopaths is bad for me. They WILL win every conversation. If they don't win...if by some odd chance I am able to make them feel like I was right and they were wrong, I need to watch my back because they will seek heavy, merciless revenge on me later for making them feel like they were "humiliated" by me being right.
In any conversation with a sociopath, if you lose, you lose now, and if you win, you lose later. (To you, a conversation is a conversation, but to a sociopath, a conversation is a sport that they intend to win).
I know you can't go No Contact, because you have a son you care deeply for who is in this mess with you. BUT I can hope that you really can start to see ways to avoid engaging in triggering conversations with your dad or siblings. I hope you can one day find yourself in a place where you can just politely speak when spoken to, keep all conversations on the weather, and don't let them drag you back into their insanity. (That's where my family kept dragging me. It was THEIR insanity that I was suffering in). Sociopaths have ONLY ONE POWER: Word smithing. They can take anything you do, say, think, or hear and spin it to sound like you're crazy. And they WILL do it. Because it's fun for them to have someone they can kick around all day, every day.
Some people believe they want to have a last word with the sociopaths that have abused them for years, but I'm also here to say, the sociopaths LOVE it when their victims try to tell them off. They are masters at the art of words. They have hand movements, facial expressions, eye rolls, and other physical communications that they are masters at using against you. If you engage with them honestly, they will engage back with their entire arsenal of weapons so fast that you'll just go crazy again in their presence. At least that was my experience.
Tagging on to Armee's comment, I feel like if you can get as much time with your son as possible, and just have fun with him, and make sure to keep all conversation light and loving, he might eventually be able to see for himself that you aren't what his evil grandfather says you are. Kids today are pretty darn smart. I'm so impressed by their ability to think for themselves.
Naturally if he's in the grips of a truly skilled sociopath, he's going to have to really work hard to see through the jerk. But kids are very smart. VERY smart. And if you are the mom he wants to be with, the one who takes him out for ice cream and engages in conversations about what is important to HIM in life, he just might start to ask himself if grandpa is really a good man or a monster.
I have a strong belief that fear disguises itself as loyalty. Your siblings and son are afraid of your dad, so they are behaving loyally to him. Most often, the loyal victims don't even really realize that their loyalty is actually fear. So they don't do anything to break free. I believe it's a version of Stockholm syndrome, and it runs rampant in families and workplaces that have a nasty sociopath in the middle of the mix stirring things up for simple pleasure. I can't speak for your dad, but I can say that my NPD siblings and dad tore people down to nervous nubs because it was fun for them. It made them feel powerful. There was NO other reason, (except money. Sociopaths will kill for money).
And let me also say that if ANYONE ever asks you, "Oh, now why would he have said or done that?" You just say, "Because it's fun for him.... PERIOD." Well-meaning people will try to tell us that family is more important than it really is.
I really, truly recommend reading The Sociopath Next Door by Dr. Martha Stout. It really speaks to the situation you're in.
There's no quick or easy fix to this, but I really like Armee's suggestion to take good care of yourself, distance yourself as much as possible from your dad's lies and be the mom your son wants to be with. Trust that he's smart and one day, he might be able to see what's really happening for himself. That's when he'll make his own decision. And if he's so brainwashed that he never does come to realize he's in the cold grip of a monster, then you have, at least, spent your time taking care of yourself.
Marianne, if you Google "parental alienation" and lawyers/social workers in your area, I'm fairly certain you'll be able to locate some professionals/agencies who deal with the type of situation you're in. In this case it's your father who is actively alienating your son from you (typically it happens with couples who are divorcing).
Your area Child Protective Services branch may also know about this syndrome and be able to help. You will need someone who can see through the wonderful grandpa personna though.
Thanks you all.
I think both my parents responses, as well as my own, have been harmful to my child. I've asked the MH system and a child therapist for help a billion times, wasn't believed, and then didn't even believe my own judgement anymore. And I still find that hard. I always self-doubt. :stars:
I'm now starting to get help though. A social worker saw a bit of what happened, and started to believe me. Then she spoke to my psychiatrist, who now started to believe me. And they helped me go to people who help children. Not really CPS, but something similar. It's just hard...for I can't prove it. And on surface level, which is what most people look at, I am the crazy one. Because I responded with anger and fear to what was done to me and my child...and nobody saw what was underneath. Oh, I also get help from a psychologist who is specialized in narcissist abuse and emotional abuse. She will help me respond better, so I can at least do my own part in this, for my child.
My dad is...there is a lot of...i do not believe he is a sociopath. I believe he acts from his own fear, need for control, shame, damage, and the like. Maybe NPD-ish. This night I again said something positive to him. I feel like trying again and again and again. Also because of my faith, I feel I should be loving and forgiving. Which obviously works against me. And my kid. As did my fighting back, and all the other emotion I showed.
I'm working real hard on being a good mum, and hope my kid can still find back his trust, his own self, and all. I'm trying to be real. And gentle with him. I have fun together.
Papa Coco, I especially want to thank you for sharing your experience. That is brave, with the triggering it caused you. Thank you. I hope you heal more and more.
I'm really really glad that help is coming to you, Marianne!
Thanks! I'm happy about that as well.
I also do not wish to put all the blame with my dad. I did stupid things, loads of them, as well. I think he is just angry, and kind of blocks all the bad things he and my mum did and the impact that had, and blames it 100% on me. I did the same before.
I'm mostly just working real hard on my own part now. If I get help with that, I can be a better mum for my kid, and that's what really counts. Dad is better to my kid than he was to me, I believe, though it isn't exactly perfect. And I can only change myself.
I'm a little sad at the moment...I stupidly reached out in a positive way again. Told dad despite it all, I love him. Got nothing in return. Just silence. :-/
Hey Marianne,
I'm glad to hear you found some help. Here in Seattle, calling CPS is pointless. They really don't help anyone as far as I've ever seen. But it sounds like you've found a better source, and I'm SO GLAD to hear you have people who believe you now. The frustration of being ignored, or even called a liar when you really, really need help, is just unbearable for me.
I'm sorry about your dad though. His silence was not affirming for you. I read a short, but interesting article today about the "Of Course Method" of how to deal with narcissistic people whom we love. It has some empowering suggestions in it. https://www.selfloverecovery.com/blogs/blog/of-course-method.
Good luck going forward and please keep us in the loop. I'm hoping that you are able to make some progress, and I'd like to hear about it as it plays out.
I'm pulling for you!
Hugs. :bighug: