Good talk here about ketamine assisted therapy (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfjAwHsxtak) by an MD in the US.
Added Jul 26th 2022
Ethical Guidelines for Ketamine Clinicians (https://www.kriyainstitute.com/wp-content/uploads/JPP-Ethical-Guidelines-for-Ketamine-Clinicians.pdf) published in the Journal of Psychedelic Psychiatry, 2(4), Dec 2020, pp. 19-23.
Ketamine Assisted Therapy Association Canada (https://www.katacanada.org/) - The Ketamine Assisted Therapy Association of Canada (KATA) is an interdisciplinary, not-for-profit organization that advances ketamine clinical practice by providing high level practice standards through the development of resources, education and policy recommendations. KATA is a member-based organization that consists of Psychiatrists, Emergency Physicians, Family Medicine Physicians, Naturopathic Doctors, Psychologists, Registered Counselors, Registered Nurses, Social Workers, Researchers, Policy Makers and patient partners. it was established in 2019 in the province of B.C., Canada.
Notes from the Frontier: Ketamine-Assisted Psychotherapy (KAP) in Clinical Practice (https://psychedelic.support/resources/ketamine-assisted-psychotherapy-kap-in-clinical-practice/) - Experiences, information and insights from three KAP practitioners at the Polaris Insight Centre in San Francisco.
Inside a Ketamine Clinic: On the Frontiers of Psychedelic Therapy (London) (https://www.technologynetworks.com/neuroscience/articles/inside-a-ketamine-clinic-on-the-frontiers-of-psychedelic-therapy-362553) by Ruairi J Mackenzie, June 13, 2022 - Something new has come to Duke's Road, a venture unlike any other in this urban cornucopia. Past nondescript gates, down a cobbled alley, you reach the bright yellow doors of Awakn Clinics London, the city's first foray into psychedelic psychotherapy. This spring, the clinic started accepting patients for an 11-session course that combines psychotherapy with intramuscular injections of ketamine. The clinic will consider patients with conditions like depression and anxiety disorders, but also post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) and a range of addiction disorders.
Promise, Power, and Profit: The Economics of Ketamine Treatment (https://maps.org/news/bulletin/promise-power-and-profit-the-economics-of-ketamine-treatment/) by Raquel Bennett, Psy.D. and Alexander Belser, Ph.D., 2020 - Ketamine treatment is the crest of the wave of novel, experiential, visionary medicines. We believe there is much to learn from the economics of ketamine that applies to MDMA, psilocybin, and other emerging psychedelic medicines. We can look to what is happening in the ketamine space as a frontrunner model, for good and ill, of how psychedelic medicine can be offered in the existing legal socio-medical infrastructure.
Added Jul 25th 2022
I poked around in the academic articles to see what I could find about ketamine for PTSD/CPTSD and here are several recent articles. Note most researchers agree that although Ketamine does appear very promising, more research regarding efficacy, safety, etc., is called for:
Collins, A., Rutter, S., & Feder, A. (2020). Development of Ketamine Administration as a Treatment for Chronic PTSD. Psychiatric annals, 50(2):68–76. https://doi.org/10.3928/00485713-20200109-01
Abstract: Posttraumatic stress disorder (PTSD) is a highly prevalent, chronic, and disabling condition for which currently available pharmacotherapies are insufficiently effective. Ketamine, which is a glutamate N-methyl-D-aspartate (NMDA) receptor antagonist, has emerged as a promising and rapid-acting novel treatment intervention for this disorder. Findings from a proof-of-concept, randomized, controlled crossover study of single-dose intravenous ketamine administration (compared to single-dose midazolam) in patients with chronic PTSD suggest that ketamine is associated with rapid improvement in core PTSD symptoms and comorbid depressive symptoms, and is generally well tolerated.
Feder, A., Costi, S., Rutter, S. B., Collins, A. B., Govindarajulu, U., Jha, M. K., Horn, S. R., Kautz, M., Corniquel, M., Collins, K. A., Bevilacqua, L., Glasgow, A. M., Brallier, J., Pietrzak, R. H., Murrough, J. W., & Charney, D. S. (2021). A Randomized Controlled Trial of Repeated Ketamine Administration for Chronic Posttraumatic Stress Disorder. The American journal of psychiatry, 178(2), 193–202. https://doi.org/10.1176/appi.ajp.2020.20050596
Conclusion: This randomized controlled trial provides the first evidence of efficacy of repeated ketamine infusions in reducing symptom severity in individuals with chronic PTSD. Further studies are warranted to understand ketamine's full potential as a treatment for chronic PTSD.
Jumaili, W. A., Trivedi, C., Chao, T., Kubosumi, A., & Jain, S. (2022). The safety and efficacy of ketamine NMDA receptor blocker as a therapeutic intervention for PTSD review of a randomized clinical trial. Behavioural brain research, 424, 113804. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.bbr.2022.113804
Conclusion: Ketamine showed fast, safe, highly effective pharmaceutical intervention for chronic PTSD symptoms. No correlation between ketamine potency and patient age, sex and/or body mass index. Further studies are needed to understand the appropriate therapeutic dose, onset, route of administration, duration of the treatment and comorbidity benefit.
Stein, M. B., & Simon, N. M. (2021). Ketamine for PTSD: Well, Isn't That Special. The American journal of psychiatry, 178(2), 116–118. https://doi.org/10.1176/appi.ajp.2020.20121677
Comment: ketamine is already being widely used—either off-label intravenously or intramuscularly, or as the FDA-approved intranasal esketamine for treatment-resistant depression or depression with acute suicidality with intent—so extending its use to PTSD could be seen as both obvious and imperative. However, as Feder and colleagues wisely counsel, there is still much work to be done before ketamine is ready for prime time in the treatment of PTSD.
Vargas, M. V., Meyer, R., Avanes, A. A., Rus, M., & Olson, D. E. (2021). Psychedelics and Other Psychoplastogens for Treating Mental Illness. Frontiers in psychiatry, 12, 727117. https://doi.org/10.3389/fpsyt.2021.727117
Conclusion: The ability to selectively modulate neural circuits using small molecule psychoplastogens opens up new horizons in neuropsychiatry focused on healing pathological neural circuitry rather than masking disease symptoms. This type of circuit-based approach represents a fundamental shift in how we might treat a number of neuropsychiatric diseases and has important implications for the future of CNS drug discovery. Given the history of neuropsychiatry and the intractable nature of brain disorders, we need to take advantage of every available tool in our therapeutic arsenal including both hallucinogenic and non-hallucinogenic psychoplastogens. Ketamine and psilocybin have demonstrated that it is possible to produce long-lasting beneficial changes in neural circuitry using small molecule drugs, and they have forged a path for future, optimized psychoplastogens to take their place. If we ever hope to heal the nearly 20% of the population suffering from a mental illness, we must find innovative ways to reduce healthcare costs and broaden patient access to psychoplastogenic medicines. Non-hallucinogenic psychoplastogens have the potential to be truly scalable solutions to many of the problems facing neuropsychiatry.
Vermetten, E., Krediet, E., Bostoen, T., Breeksema, J. J., Schoevers, R. A., & van den Brink, W. (2020). Psychedelica bij de behandeling van PTSS [Psychedelics in the treatment of PTSD]. Tijdschrift voor psychiatrie, 62(8), 640–649.
Conclusion: Psychedelics may have potential to serve as a catalyst for the psychotherapeutic treatment of PTSD. Most evidence exists for MDMA-supported psychotherapy; relatively little research is available on ketamine and classical psychedelics. Future research needs to show whether the use of psychedelics can be integrated into available treatment options for PTSD.
Whittaker, E., Dadabayev, A. R., Joshi, S. A., & Glue, P. (2021). Systematic review and meta-analysis of randomized controlled trials of ketamine in the treatment of refractory anxiety spectrum disorders. Therapeutic advances in psychopharmacology, 11, 20451253211056743. https://doi.org/10.1177/20451253211056743
Conclusion: These preliminary analyses suggest that acute ketamine may be broadly effective across treatment-resistant anxiety spectrum disorders. These effects can be prolonged with maintenance treatment. Future studies will be needed to provide critical knowledge gaps around off-label use, side effects, and potential risks for abuse in clinical settings.
Wilkinson, S. T., Toprak, M., Turner, M. S., Levine, S. P., Katz, R. B., & Sanacora, G. (2017). A Survey of the Clinical, Off-Label Use of Ketamine as a Treatment for Psychiatric Disorders. The American journal of psychiatry, 174(7), 695–696. https://doi.org/10.1176/appi.ajp.2017.17020239
Discussion: This is the first attempt to characterize practice patterns among physicians providing ketamine as a treatment for psychiatric disorders. Although there are limitations to this approach, including the inability to ensure that this is a representative sample of all ketamine providers across the country, we identified a rapidly growing number of physicians in a variety of specialties and geographic locations offering ketamine treatment for psychiatric disorders. Various dosing protocols were reported, although the majority of research studies have used only one protocol (2). These results underscore the urgent need for more research on the use of ketamine in psychiatric disorders in clinical settings in order to establish evidence-based treatment regimens and the safety of long-term use.
Hi Kizzie,
In order to be thorough, I'm going to have to break the three-paragraph rule. Please forgive me for doing so. But I want to be thorough and complete in my synopsis of how the Ketamine Infusions work.
Cost: Sadly, my medical insurance company ended up rejecting my claims, so I have to apologize for saying it was covered. I did not try to get a doctor's referral, so maybe that's what I did wrong. Either way, I ended up paying in full for all my infusions so far. The clinic I use (Lighthouse Infusions & Seattle Ketamine: https://lhinfusions.com/) charges $450 per infusion, plus I have to hire Ubers to bring me to and from. I don't live in the city of Seattle, so a ride into and out of the city adds about $50 each way to each infusion. The cost held me back for a long time, but eventually the need for something to keep me from self-harm outweighed the expense. The clinic I use suggests that clients take six infusions in four weeks: two infusions during the first week, two the second week, one the third week, and one the fourth week. Different clients respond differently, so the frequency and number of infusions can vary greatly, but they say on an average, many people come back for a refresher infusion in a month or two, and then maybe three or four refresher infusions per year after that. (Psychedelics work permanently, but are not yet legal, Ketamine is legal, but it is NOT a psychedelic, it's a relaxant, so its results tend to need refreshers. When psychedelics become legal, I'll switch over in hopes of no longer having to keep returning. For now, Ketamine has given me the best-known legal cure, and I need it, so it's the best cure I have available to me at this time).
Benefit: To sum up the Ketamine Infusion experience in a single comment, it would be; I now feel connected. My lifelong trauma responses come from a deep sense that I've never been welcome in life. I was God's ugly mistake. During Ketamine Infusions I feel total, unconditional connection to all of existence, which is the opposite of how I've lived most of my human life.
The Spiritual Aspect: Feeling connected to all things is the basic definition of spirituality. The 40-minute Ketamine infusions turn off all the emotional connections I have to the problems and traumas of this physical world which increases my spiritual connections to eternity. I liken it to what people who are Near Death Experiencers (NDEs) say their 5 minutes in heaven did to change them for life.
The Process: Here's how the infusions work. I cannot drive home from the infusions, so I either Uber there, or if my wife is off work that day she drops me off and/or picks me up. I go into a room and am seated in a comfortable recliner chair. A very kind and quiet woman I'll call "LL" connects me to a blood pressure monitor, an oxygen sensor and a heart monitor, then inserts an IV needle into a hand or arm, (wherever we can find an easy vein). She asks if I'm comfortable, and offers to raise or lower the room temperature, or turn on any music--or to do whatever I feel will make me as comfortable as possible. Once I say I'm ready she turns on the 40-minute Ketamine flow. (Basically, I feel total personal control throughout the entire experience). Within about 2 minutes I start to feel very relaxed. Within 6 minutes I'm getting into what I call "my visit with God." She then sits down in a chair facing me and where she can see all the monitors. She silently reads a book. I have a lot of choices. I can have music or headphones or an eye mask or a blanket, or whatever will help me feel as comfortable as I want for the duration of the infusion. After about 40 minutes I feel myself coming out of the infusion. She watches and gets ready to welcome me back as soon as I appear to be ready for a conversation. She asks how it went, and listens to me groggily tell her whatever I want to tell her about what I experienced. I can usually walk, if I'm careful, back out to the lobby within about 5 minutes. Coffee and socializing with someone help to bring me back to feeling more awake and able to walk on my own. Within a couple of hours I'm okay to walk without fear of falling, and even to cook safely, but it's really a VERY good idea to not have any big plans for the rest of the day. I sometimes take a 3-hour nap when I get home, but after my 7th infusion I seem to be getting better at coming out of the relaxation more quickly.
The Ketamine Experience: I call these 40-minute infusions my "visits with God." It's important to note that while I'm in the infusion I am fully conscious. If I want to talk with LL I can. If I want to move my body, I can. My first infusion was 40 minutes with my eyes open, watching the wind in the trees outside the window. The next six infusions I've closed my eyes because I enjoy it more that way. It's as if I have full control over my physical body but am choosing to stay relaxed. I can pull up a blanket, adjust my body for comfort any time I want. I'm not at all unconscious. After the infusion, I remember all 40 minutes of it. There is no lost time, no unconsciousness at all. Any time I feel like I need grounding, I open my eyelids enough to see LL sitting near me reading her book. I can ground myself at will or allow myself to "float around in the ether" if I would rather.
My choice is to not wear an eye mask, but to wear noise cancelling headphones without music. When I wear an eye mask, the world inside my eyes is dark. When I don't, sunlight coming through the window and through my thin eyelids gives me an experience of golden colors, swirling, almost like being in a swirling flow of golden energy. This is most likely a physical effect of my eyes being able to see while my eye lids are closed. Think about when you close your eyes and push in on them with your fingers. You see all those swirling movements. This is like that but on steroids. Flowing with the energy of my eye lids makes me feel like my body is floating around in absolute safety in a universe where the outside world still exists but doesn't matter. Basically, while I'm under Ketamine, I feel eternal. Like I've died and am safely in "Heaven" and am an integral, indestructible, unconditionally loved part of all of eternity.
During the infusion, I can think about anything I want to. I can choose to think about specific people or experiences. LL tells me that people who listen to music sometimes become agitated. She's there to ask them if they're okay, and when she hears what they are listening to in their headphones, she usually discovers that the music has become lively and agitating. So she recommends they either turn it off or change to a more relaxing sound. This is one reason I don't listen to music. The other is, I don't want music directing my thoughts. I want full control over what/who I'm thinking about.
I call these infusions my "visits with God" because I really, truly sense my connection to creation and eternity--to birth, life, and death like it's a cycle that doesn't frighten me. My brain is active during the "visit" so if I'm not choosing what to think about, memories or faces or places show themselves on their own in my vision. The only emotion I ever experience, no matter whose face I see, is love. I never feel fear, or anger, or hatred. I see flashes of buildings that have meaning to me. I have one recurring vision during the first few minutes of every infusion. I see the ceiling in a room, as if I remember staring at that ceiling in some important way as a child. It's like a basement ceiling, with water stains in the sheet rock. I've never been able to place where I've seen it before, and it only lasts a few seconds. Also, during the first few minutes, I connect very strongly with birth and death. I usually see my mom's face, but in a loving way. I then hear the words of love. Words become fun to play with. Mom's name was LaVonne. During infusion one, I noticed LaVonne had the word Love in it > "Love On". Before infusion one, I'd grown to hate my mother. She was not a narcissist, but she was selfish, and she had allowed the church to do terrible things to me, because it was more important for her to be seen as a good Catholic than it was for her to protect her son. After the infusion I felt like I'd completely forgiven her for her own shortcomings and felt connected with her true love that she did have for me, even though she wasn't good at showing it.
After infusion 1, I felt as if I'd forgiven Mom. After spending time with "God" or Eternity, I felt like I no longer needed to be every person's doormat. During the next 3 or 4 days that followed I was connected to a new kind of anger. My therapist helps describe it as a good, helpful, appropriate anger now...the kind that is used to protect me from scammers and liars and bullies. Before Infusion 1, I only ever felt bad anger, the kind that lashes out inappropriately when my body can't hold it back any longer.
Final Comments: My 40-minute experiences in Ketamine Infusions leaves me to believe, with all my heart, that I am in God and God is in me. I never feel like I'm leaving my body. I FEEL like I'm going into my body and finding eternity there. It sounds strange, but I have a truly realistic sense now that Eternity is within me AND I'm within it. I describe it as though I am a seed. I choose to use the seed metaphor because a tiny, pea sized seed has all the DNA of a 100-foot tree in it. The tree also has millions of seeds within it. The tree grows seeds which become trees which grow seeds which become trees which grows seeds, etc., in a continuous loop of life. That's how life feels to me now after 7 Ketamine Infusions. I feel unafraid of death, but also not like harming myself. Like no matter what happens to me in this life it means nothing because when my life ends, I go back to the eternal existence that has no danger and no trauma and no drama to it.
NOTE: I am not a religious person, but I am a spiritual person. I have a ton of evidence from experiences in my life that prove we are all connected. I tend to pray many hours a day, even though I don't identify as Christian or Buddhist or Muslim or Jewish. For over twenty years I've believed that God is more of a creative power than a sociopath who forces us to love him or he punishes us with eternal torture. These Ketamine treatments reinforce that belief in me, and I can say that now, these days my prayers bring positive results nearly instantly. I'm much more connected to "God" now than I was when I had a church interfering with my relationship to that mighty force. During the infusions I feel 100% connected to God and eternity, and the more visits I get "with God" the more that sense becomes who I am during the weeks and months between infusions. I must be forming a new set of neuro pathways that connect my desires to my beliefs. I'm more confident that I am loved and connected and forgiven, and I'm quicker to forgive and love others as well.
The clinic tells me that as I go forward, I'll be able to put longer and longer periods of time between infusions.
Disclaimer: This was a report on my own personal experiences with Ketamine Infusions. I'm told some people respond better than I did, and some not as well. I can't guarantee that anyone will have the same experiences I have. I'm only giving a detailed report of what I, myself, experienced. I hope this helps answer the questions about the process and about how I have personally experienced the infusions. What I wrote here today is the stuff I wish someone would have told me before I participated. These were the questions I had but nobody really shared these answers. The experience, for me, is nothing but positive. I'm sorry that it has such a cost, but for me, giving up a few other things in life so I can pay for these infusions is the right thing to do. I was on the verge of not surviving much longer. If the clinic hadn't called me back on the day I contacted them, I was ready to call the National Suicide Hotline to ask for the phone numbers of someplace where I could be placed where I would not be able to hurt myself. So for me, the cost is not an option. I have to pay for this, at least until psylocibin becomes legal for clinics to administer here in Seattle. A massive body of research from most countries is proving that psychedelics work even better than Ketamine, so when they become legal...COUNT ME IN!
I'm off to see my GP so don't have time for a longer answer. No worries about going longer than 3 paras, it's a guideline so if it does take longer to explain something as in this case that's fine. Members like me who are interested in ketamine will read and those who aren't won't.
OMG that is so costly Papa, it's crazy how expensive it is to try and get well! I can't get in to see a provincially covered psychiatrist here for months to help me sort out my medications so I have to go private - $1400 for the assessment then $365/session. It sure will eat into our savings depending on how long I end up going. So too would ketamine infusions if I can ever get my GP or the psych to agree to them. It's not really a choice though, I want to stop suffering.
I love how well you describe your experience, it let's me see what it can be like through your eyes. The feeling of being connected is a wonderful gift I imagine as most of us don't feel like we belong, or even that we are connected to ourselves in some cases. It sounds like K helps you to get back inside and reconnect with your self.
OK I'm going to keep writing so must sign off and get myself ready to head into the doctors. Thanks so much for sharing and I'm sure I'll have more to say/ask. :hug:
I haven't been give the go ahead by my GP to go for Ketamine but I did look into the cost etc. Here it's for ketamine assisted therapy versus ketamine infusion only. It may be the law here (Alberta, Canada) I don't know, but I don't think just the infusion is available.
1. Doctor referral (must have this)
2. Intake session
3. 2 Prep Sessions with psychologist ($500)
4. Micro Test Dose with Therapy: One-time dose to ensure no allergies or adverse reactions to the medicine. ($120 dose, $250 Therapy Session = $370 Total)
5. Macro Doses with Therapy - Recommend 6 sessions but this depends on individual. ($200 dose + $375 Therapy = $575 total)
Do you think your experience would have been enhanced if it were followed by therapy Papa?
Hi Kizzie.
Good catch! And you are spot on.
I didn't mention the talk therapy in this post because I didn't think to, but yes. In fact, now that you have me thinking back, I realize that I have "Swiss cheese memory syndrome"--ha ha--and forgot that I did have to be referred to them by a doctor or therapist. In my case I have been in talk therapy with this same therapist every two weeks for over 20 years now. He and I had discussed Ketamine Infusions at great lengths for many months before I finally called the clinic to get help. My Ketamine Clinic told me that they require a letter from a medical doctor or licensed therapist prior to treating me, and that the letter required a proper diagnostic code. I called my therapist at home that very night and he provided the referral to the Ketamine Clinic within a few days with the diagnostic code for PTSD. That authorized them to go ahead with the first treatment. (I had totally forgotten about all those logistics until you asked).
I was in such a critically precarious mental state when I called the clinic that Sunday, that the logistics of how I was qualified got lost in my personal tornado of events. When I wrote this post, I had forgotten to write about the legal process I went through to qualify for the treatment. I'm very glad the referral was required because my therapist has been supportive of me every step of the way, helping me to properly understand my reactions to the infusions. For example, after infusion one, I felt as if it had made me irritable. I worried about that. When he and I talked a few days later, he helped me to understand that I was not becoming irritable, but I was learning how to use anger more appropriately. I've been a doormat my whole life. Bullies have been able to take anything they want from me. After the very first infusion, I saw that I was as valuable a human as anyone else, and that I did not have to ever "give up my lunch money" to a bully ever again. This ignited the proper use of anger, which, for three days, was very pronounced. Without My T's help, I'd have called it Irritability. But he helped me see that I was experiencing "good anger" for the first time in my life. The irritable mood only lasted three days. Since then, I've been pretty good at controlling my anger. In fact, I'm better at it now than ever.
So, YES! I do believe having a therapist in conjunction with the infusions is the best possible road to recovery with CPTSD.
I think having a therapist is important too, not that I'm basing that on scientific evidence but it feels like what comes up should be processed with a knowledgeable guiding hand. So the take away is to either choose a clinic that offers therapy along with the infusion like the one I am considering or like you have your private therapist on side and ready to help process the experience. Your example of reframing your irritability as clean anger is a great example of why therapy is important IMO. That's awesome by the way :thumbup:
Hey Kizzie,
Just reading your posts about the ketamine therapy. Not sure the logistics but maybe travelling to Kelowna or Vancouver might be an option if it's difficult to proceed in Alberta.
dolly
Tks for the suggestion Dolly. It's not the logistics, it's getting my GP to agree to refer me. She's reluctant because at the moment we're shifting SSRI's and it is not going well. Plus we're trying to get me to a psychiatrist to help with my meds and it looks like I will have to go private and pay. It's
very expensive so I don't know if ketamine will even be an option if/when I get this anxiety/SSRI business sorted out.
If I am able to try/afford it, I like the clinic I choose because they have a lot of safeguards in place:
- Doctor/psychologist referral (must have this)
- Intake session
- 2 Prep Sessions with psychologist ($500)
- Micro Test Dose with Therapy: One-time dose to ensure no allergies or adverse reactions to the medicine. ($120 dose, $250 Therapy Session = $370 Total)
- Macro Doses with Therapy - Recommend 6 sessions but this depends on individual. ($200 dose + $375 Therapy = $575 total)
I must say I find it appalling that so may of us have to pay to get well. We have universal health care here in Canada but it really only applies to physical health.
Just wanted to add that Papa Coco agreed to let me include his post about his experience with ketamine in a blog article - https://www.outofthestorm.website/guest-bloggers (scroll down). Tks Papa!
Ketamine Clinicians Publish Ethical Guidelines to Raise Treatment Standards (https://www.lucid.news/ketamine-clinicians-publish-ethical-guidelines-to-raise-treatment-standards/) by Ann Harrison, January 16, 2021
A new paper published in the Journal of Psychedelic Psychiatry lays out guidelines that propose a standard of care for the growing number of clinicians providing ketamine for mental health indications. The authors of the paper note that despite the rapid expansion of these services, many providers of therapeutic ketamine do not have training in psychological or psychiatric treatment.
"The majority of ketamine providers draw from limited, if any, formal psychiatric or psychological training or experience, and provide in-office ketamine without psychiatric treatment planning or psychotherapy," write authors Dr. Wesley Ryan and Raquel Bennett PsyD.
So, if you are considering ketamine treatment be cautious and find out whether the clinician is properly trained medically and psychologically.
One issue that arises when you're looking into Ketamine is whether it's classed as a psychedelic or not. Some say "Yes", others say "No".
Is Ketamine A Psychedelic? Depends On Who You Ask (https://finance.yahoo.com/news/ketamine-psychedelic-depends-ask-155134620.html) by Natan Ponieman, September 22, 2021 - While ketamine's efficacy in the treatment of symptoms of depression and other mental health disorders is no longer under doubt, the scientific establishment has not yet agreed on whether these effects come from the drug's pure biological function (as most psychiatric drugs work), or from its ability to induce altered states of consciousness that can facilitate psychological growth (as psychedelics like LSD or psilocybin work in therapeutic contexts).
Why Ketamine is a Psychedelic, and Why it Matters (https://www.mindbloom.com/blog/is-ketamine-a-psychedelic)
Based on the hallmarks of psychedelic experiences, the neurobiological, phenomenological, and linguistic definitions provided above, it is fair to say that ketamine is a "psychedelic" medicine. Though ketamine treatment has its origins as a dissociative anesthetic, it has quickly become the primary medicinal application of psychedelic medicine. With the right set and setting, preparation and integration, and safe, effective dosages, can be truly and completely psychedelic. It encompasses the totality of a psychedelic experience.
So I've posted elsewhere that I am starting Ketamine therapy next week. Just wanted to show what kind of treatment the particular clinic I'm going with provides. It's pretty intense as you can see and goes on Fridays for 6 weeks:
8:30-9:45 Therapy Treatment (Trauma focused)
9:45-10:00 Break
10:00-10:30 Intentional Grounding
10:30-12:30 Ketamine Treatment
12:30-1:30 Reflection (with other patients who had treatment that day, facilitated by a psychologist/psychiatrist)
Before being accepted for the program I had a series of interviews, intake sessions and assessments including psychiatric, medical and social. Very comprehensive and I might add exhausting. This particular clinic is quite expensive but I will have an entire team supporting me so my H and I decided it was worth the expense. It's all out of pocket sadly so hope at some point in the future I hope insurers will realize it's much cheaper than funding weekly talk therapy and psychiatric medications over years and years for most of us.
I've found this today when going back to an IFS talk on MDMA if anyone is interested:
The Role of IFS before and after Ketamine Assisted Treatment - with Robert Grant
https://www.podcastaddict.com/episode/120810453
Tks for the link Dolly! Very pertinent to this thread :)
Dolly,
I've listened to the IFS/Ketamine podcast with Dr. Robert Grant. It was VERY GOOD. Thanks for sharing it with us. I found it interesting that Dr. Grant is one of Time Magazine's 100 most influential people in the world.
When I do the Ketamine, I like to be quiet and alone, but Dr. Grant talks about how valuable it is to do IFS therapy while in the infusion, and it sounds like a powerful way to use the tool. This is exciting stuff.
IFS is turning out to be an amazing tool for working with my moods and confusions. I'm becoming a big fan of IFS now. Even after only reading the first 1 1/2 chapters of the one book, I'm already feeling like I have a tiny bit more control over my inner world. This is an exciting new direction for me.
This is a cut and paste from my journal, but I thought the info should be here as well.
I am so disappointed the Ketamine didn't work for me and made things worse in fact, but it's a cautionary tale for those thinking about this treatment. I still believe it is very promising, but that there just isn't enough research yet regarding dosage, therapy that compliments the psychedelics, and patients/clients ability to deal with psychedelic aspects of it.
I hated doing the tripping part frankly and stayed at a dose of 175 while another woman there yesterday was up to 550 (she was stoned, right out of it and could not even put a sentence together afterward in the 'reflection' time we have after session. My red flag went up frankly. Anyway, investigate the clinic you choose carefully, very carefully, and make sure it is more on the medical side than a business entity trying to pull in the bucks. Listen to your gut.
I am still quite interested in Ketmaine or psilocybin but won't try them unless I am 'clean", that is not using other medications. That's where I think I got messed up. Using benzos or Z class drugs like Zolpidem can inhibit the effects which is why I don't think it worked for me. I don't think they should have let me into the program but hey it's $7500 and that's hard to pass up. I was also put on another quite high dose of Gabapentin by the head psych which my GP is convinced now likely led to the breakdowns and we are now tapering off of or at least down. The head psych also upped my Ativan to help with the breakdowns. Anyway, when you put it all together, as good as a clinic may have seemed (4 psychiatrists for heaven's sake), they are not all good. The fact that I ended up having major breakdowns (which they tried to say where progress, the trauma walls breaking down - can't fathom what they thought people would do after only 6 sessions which the programs was). and was put on yet another med and more of Ativan which is a no no - just spoke volumes to my GP and I. Get outta there!
I did want to give the clinic another chance as the head psych had agreed my therapy session be less focused on digging up very difficult trauma and focusing on positive/resiliency themes instead and to their credit they did. However, I found out in the middle of the session she was an Occupational Therapist with trauma training versus a psychologist. Nothing against OTs whatsoever, but they are not remotely knowledgeable enough working with a survivor in a depressive episode with Complex PTSD. You need much deeper trauma training and skills. :doh:
So I decided to leave the clinic, either just to pause until the TMS is done and go back for the final two sessions if my depression has lifted and they will allow that (the head psych said I could do so but things change when it's crunch time so we'll see). There is a proviso in the contract that if you are leaving for health reasons you can get a portion of your money back. I'm quite certain my GP will back me up leaving entirely based on my worsening mental health because of the treatment at the clinic, but again it may be a fight to get any funds back. :Idunno:
I still do believe psychedelic assisted therapy holds great promise for those of us with CPTSD, I just think now we need to be very, very cautious about what clinic we choose, that we are ready for the actual psychedelic part and we are surrounded and supported by very experienced and advanced trauma professionals. Sadly, it seems a lot of 'professionals' are hanging out their shingles because it's a big old irresistible cash cow.
Dang.
I'm so sorry it wasn't a great experience for you.
I hope that you're able to get clean and to also find the right clinic before trying it again.
The differences between your experience and mine are that I wasn't on any medications when I started, and I have been dealing with crushing depression while you've been dealing with anxiety. Our pendulums are on opposite ends of the CPTSD Spectrum for the time being.
As for me, Ketamine is a good experience, but it's only an infusion in a quiet office. It's relaxing and helpful, but I wish I could experience having a therapist in the room working IFS with me while I'm in the zone. I wonder how much better doing IFS at the same time as Ketamine would work as a permanent improvement to my chronic depression.
Like Papa Coco said, I'm sorry the Ketamine wasn't a great experience.
Maybe seeing a psychologist outside the clinic who has a background in both integrating psychedelic experiences and extensive trauma training would be helpful as a second opinion?
Ketamine, an open mind, and odd animal friendships
Before I post, I want to say that people respond to Ketamine Infusions in different ways. I have a body that, for some reason, reacts to stimulants very, very quickly. I can get stoned on sugar. I was a raging alcoholic who, for many years, passed out drunk on my third drink. I can feel serious hyper anxiety and a sharp rise in my Blood Pressure from the sodium in my blood if I ate too much processed food the day before. So, the fact that these Ketamine Infusions affect me so strongly is kind of "par for the course" for me. My practitioner tells me that I'm in the upper end of her clients who respond quickly to the KIs. There are others who respond even better than I do, but I'm doing pretty well. Statistically, most people respond positively to the KIs. They are worth looking into for anyone who has them available to them.
I post this as FYI Information for those who are wondering what Ketamine is, and if it is worth trying. I'm not an expert, I don't know how Ketamine affects others. I am simply sharing witness to my own experience in case anyone is interested in researching it.
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I had my 9th Ketamine infusion on Saturday. New research is showing that Ketamine opens the mind, and it remains open for 24-48 hours, and that patients who spend those 48 hours focused on happiness are able to go longer between treatments. One article I found online says that those who look at photos of smiles while connected to the Ketamine IV have even more success yet.
I spent the last two days googling "Happy People" and running images after images of smiles. I found myself drawn mostly to smiles outside the US. People who are not trapped in the hedonistic treadmill, whose smiles and laughter are tied to human connection rather than monetary status or gain. The pictures that drew me downward a bit were all those staged photos of young, attractive American business people cheering and jumping and smiling, most likely because they just took someone else's money, or got their first German car, or their first corner office....yuck!
Every time I leave a Ketamine Infusion, I spend the next few days NOT attached to my possessions, but looking for human connection, because for those few days I see the truth, that true happiness is in those human connections. I find myself leaving the house more often, and stopping to talk to store clerks, smiling and laughing with neighbors, NOT wanting to isolate the way I normally do.
For me, my 45 minutes in the Ketamine infusion are 45-minute visits with some sort of divine consciousness, where I feel equal to all other people, and like my earthly problems are a hundred percent moot in the bigger picture. That tends to stay with me for a few days afterward.
One of the topics I went to YouTube to watch was "Odd Animal Friends". I selected one that had a kind of a documentary dialogue going with all the pictures of odd animal couples. I knew that seeing the unconditional love between an elephant and a dog, or a cat and a duck, would warm my heart and bombard me with happy thoughts of pure love while my mind was opened by the Ketamine. The dialogue of the video I selected taught that animals who are connected to their own herds almost never build friendships outside their species. But an elephant whose been left alone and a dog who was rescued and is now alone will bond as tightly as if they were siblings. Naturally, I see that in my own life. When my own FOO finally became so ugly that I couldn't pretend to love them any longer, I found myself feeling sort of like a late life orphan, and I quickly bonded more tightly with the non FOO people in my life. It drew me much closer to my wife and son and prepared me to be more deeply connected with my daughter-in-law when she came into our lives, and then my grandsons. I was nearly killed and eaten by my own herd, and then rescued by people from other herds, and I found a bond that was better, stronger, more pure than that FOO crapola I'd been tricked by for 50 years.