I posted this in the Addiction/Self-medicating subforum, but think it's useful here also because it resonated for me about why I smoked and drank and then when I gave those up, turned to food.
"Just reading Gabor Mate's book "In the realm of Hungry Ghosts" and loved something he said to one of his patients:
What you said about hating yourself and feeling sorry for yourself. What if you were to replace your harsh judgements with some genuine curiosity about why you do what you do? What if you use drugs because you're afraid that you can't bear the pain without them? You have every reason to feel hurt after all you've been through. It's not a matter of [messing] up, you just haven't found any other way to cope."
When I think about my addiction to food (I only realized this past year or so that's what it is), I feel like I can say out loud my "dirty little secret" I've kept hidden from myself for decades.
If I give up comforting myself with food I don't think I'll be able to bear the pain of my existence.
Now that I'm not keeping this a secret from myself I can also ask other questions: "Why am I in so much pain? Why can't I comfort myself except with addictive behaviours/substances. If I give up this last thing -- (over)eating food -- what will I replace it with? How do I comfort myself in a healthy way?"
I appreciate you sharing this as I have been more aware of my relationship to food. I haven't felt as at home in my body of late and some of that is connected to eating. I think it will be helpful to be curious before I jump into eating for coping.
I am noticing that the way I eat impacts how I can perform in exercise yet how attached I am to food for comfort. As soon as I get home from work I have noticed that I go right to eating something "comforting" instead of being curious about how I am feeling.
This really speaks to something I've seen showing up in me and wasn't sure how to think about.
Quote from: Kizzie on February 19, 2021, 05:50:04 PM
When I think about my addiction to food (I only realized this past year or so that's what it is), I feel like I can say out loud my "dirty little secret" I've kept hidden from myself for decades.
If I give up comforting myself with food I don't think I'll be able to bear the pain of my existence.
Now that I'm not keeping this a secret from myself I can also ask other questions: "Why am I in so much pain? Why can't I comfort myself except with addictive behaviours/substances. If I give up this last thing -- (over)eating food -- what will I replace it with? How do I comfort myself in a healthy way?"
Kizzie, I could have written this. Good questions to ask yourself. Somehow the other comforts do not seem like enough. When I
confessed to my therapist that I had binge eating disorder (my diagnosis) he said, "sugar was your mother."
I sincerely believe current weight management programs don't understand the relationship of trauma to disordered eating. I was signed up for yet another program this Jan and just couldn't bring myself to deal with lessons on nutrition, calories, exercise, :blahblahblah: I know all of that, what I need to talk about is WHY I overeat, deal with the feelings that drive the behaviour, and figure out ways to comfort myself in a healthy, regulated way.
I was reading some more of Mate's book and this quote by Dr. Bruce Perry (well known for his ACEs work) really helps me to understand why eating has such a hold on me and how it got this way:
A child who is stressed [for us that would be traumatized] early in life will be more overactive and reactive. He is triggered more easily, is more anxious and distressed. Now compare a person whose baseline is normal [not traumatized] with another whose baseline state of arousal is at a higher level [traumatized]. Give them both alcohol [or anything that soothes like food, gambling, cigarettes ...]: both may experience the same intoxicating effect, but the one who has this higher psychological arousal will have the added effect of feeling pleasure from the relief of that stress. It's similar to when with a parched throat your drink some cool water: the pleasure effect is much heightened by the relief of thirst.
The thought of losing that feeling of comfort and relief IS like losing a parent ("sugar was your mother" - spot on!).
Quote from: Kizzie on February 21, 2021, 05:18:04 PM
I sincerely believe current weight management programs don't understand the relationship of trauma to disordered eating. I was signed up for yet another program this Jan and just couldn't bring myself to deal with lessons on nutrition, calories, exercise, :blahblahblah: I know all of that, what I need to talk about is WHY I overeat, deal with the feelings that drive the behaviour, and figure out ways to comfort myself in a healthy, regulated way.
:yeahthat:
except I wasn't signed up for any kind of program because I know instinctively that it wouldn't help me and it would add to my exhaustion and so be counterproductive. What I also need to deal with is why I don't exercise, other than it exhausts me way more than it should. The exhaustion would also be a topic. In my case there will be something traumatic behind it.
Help is nigh! Yesterday after watching Greg Marsh on EFT and vision problems I checked out some more free EFT sessions on the Internet. One was about EFT and weight loss/obesity/food addiction. Example chocolate. The tapping sentence was something like "Even though I am thoroughly addicted to chocolate and want to wallow in it [
just kidding on the wallowing], I deeply love and accept myself". I started reacting with yawns simply hearing that and now at writing it out. See written instructions here: https://eftinternational.org/my-favorite-eft-group-demo/
Quote from: Kizzie on February 21, 2021, 05:18:04 PM
The thought of losing that feeling of comfort and relief IS like losing a parent ("sugar was your mother" - spot on!).
:yes: This sentence is very moving for me. Helps me accept myself and food addiction on a deeper level.
The message in church today was about fasting (for spiritual reasons). While the pastor was talking, I was thinking about this conversation. It is likely that for me, in my situation, fasting is not something for me to do right now.
Quote from: Kizzie on February 21, 2021, 05:18:04 PM
. . . both may experience the same intoxicating effect, but the one who has this higher psychological arousal will have the added effect of feeling pleasure from the relief of that stress. It's similar to when with a parched throat your drink some cool water: the pleasure effect is much heightened by the relief of thirst.[/i]
The thought of losing that feeling of comfort and relief IS like losing a parent ("sugar was your mother" - spot on!).
This makes a lot of sense. I don't know what the answer is to changing my behavior, but this understanding helps to be more kind to myself and my sugar addiction. It's not just a lack of self-control; sugar (I think) eases at least a little of the pain that I carry.
Quote from: Blueberry on February 21, 2021, 06:14:00 PM
What I also need to deal with is why I don't exercise, other than it exhausts me way more than it should. The exhaustion would also be a topic. In my case there will be something traumatic behind it.
Blueberry, I hate to exercise. I've had short seasons where I've exercised, but mostly I avoid it. For me, I don't like that I have a body, don't want to be attuned to my body. My body caused me to experience a lot of pain. (I know that T would that PEOPLE caused my pain.) Also, I experienced CSA from a physical education teacher.
Thank you, friends, for sharing. This is a deep, complex issue. It helps to not feel completely alone in it.
I was thumbing through Pete Walker's "CPTSD: From Surviving to Thriving" and saw this:
Children who are traumatically abandoned naturally turn to food for comfort. Food offers us our first outside source of self-soothing, and when a child is starving for love, he frequently makes food his love object. Over the years he commonly "elevates" it to the status of drug.... Food addictions begin pre-verbally. They are functional and useful at the time and help us to survive the unbearable feelings of the abandonment melange. (pp. 47-48)
"Starving for love" about says it all. :'(
Yup. I read that para a day or two ago too. Pre-verbal :'( :'( Apparently I used to prolong the breastfeeding sessions as a tiny, tiny baby. Or I'd stop drinking till M gave me eye-contact again. I was supposedly also a very contented and easy baby which gave M more time for my older sib (she said that!), but I obviously needed eye-contact while feeding and made sure I got it too :thumbup: It's sad I had to force M to give me attention when I was just a few weeks old though.
notalone and Kizzie, it helps me to not feel alone with this deep-seated, complex issue. Atm just the thought of doing EFT on anything to do with this food issue is too much. Even something like "Even though I don't want to tap anything to do with my food addictions, I still accept myself" feels too much. Just too early? Pete Walker writes in "S to T" something like you don't want to look at your eating disorder in early trauma T unless it's life-threatening. Mine isn't life-threatening, though I have looked at it in T before, especially inpatient, but all I could manage was white-knuckled abstinence.
That resonates with me a lot. (I get my copy of his book today, I look forward to reading this.) My mom (who's been gone about 7 years now) always told me I played with my food. Like, squished the peas one at a time with my fingertip, decorated with food, LOL. But the thing it made me think about was she offered food as comfort as well. If HE was upset or whatever, she would fix foods she and I liked. Even today, if I feel like crud emotionally or physically, I want a hot cuppa tea and some buttered toast. Food was... "here, at least this is good." I had other issues around the Male Parental Unit and food, too. I had to consciously change those when I grew up. But that pre-verbal makes so much sense. Humans bond over sharing food.
Sage
BB I saw that Pete Walker said about how difficult eating issues can be for those of us with Complex PTSD - hard to read that but it confirms how much I have struggled with this but was able to stop drinking and smoking. This addiction is started so young and is so comforting I don't quite know what could replace it but at least I can say that out loud now. Before I couldn't even think it without panicking on some level.
I quit the weight management program when I heard the chipper voice of the dietician on the phone and just knew she would never understand what I was really struggling with (not calorie counting or any of that, it was the loss of comfort and not knowing how to replace that). Not the right fit at all.
I think you're right about bonding over food CT. In my case my NPD M used to cook and bake as part of her good mother image so I grew up with lots of comforting calories but little in the way of human comfort.
Food is tricky because it's central to life, we can't do without it whereas other addictions we can stop using/being around them.
So found this online and it perfectly describes what I deal with in terms of overeating:
Night Eating Syndrome
Night eating syndrome is a condition in which people eat large amounts of food after the evening meal, often waking up during the night to eat. People with this condition may delay their first meal of the day for many hours.
Experts still do not know very much about night eating syndrome, but they continue to study the condition.
What causes night eating syndrome?
Doctors are not sure what causes night eating syndrome. But some studies show that it may be related to problems with the sleep-wake cycle and certain hormones.
What are the symptoms of night eating syndrome?
People with night eating syndrome do remember eating during the night. They usually do not feel hungry in the early part of the day. They may delay their first meal of the day for many hours. Then later, after the evening meal, they may eat more than a quarter of the food they eat each day.
This pattern of eating cannot be explained by changes in the person's sleep schedule or local social routines (for example, a custom of eating late at night). People with this problem feel upset about their night eating.
People with night eating syndrome also have sleep problems, including difficulty falling asleep and staying asleep. People with this problem are more likely to be obese. And depression is common in people who have night eating syndrome.
Night eating syndrome is different from binge eating disorder. People with binge eating disorder usually do not have episodes of binge eating during the night (10 p.m. to 6 a.m.). But if they do, they eat large amounts of food in a single sitting. People with night eating syndrome tend to eat smaller amounts of food many times during the night.
How is night eating syndrome diagnosed?
To find out if you have night eating syndrome, your doctor will ask questions about your medical history and eating patterns. Night eating syndrome often happens along with sleep problems, so your doctor may want to do tests of your sleep (polysomnography).
How is night eating syndrome treated?
There is no evidence-based treatment for night eating syndrome. But doctors have seen some success with cognitive-behavioural therapy and with antidepressants.
Link: https://www.healthlinkbc.ca/health-topics/aa107116
Don't much like the last bit but I think it has more to do with more extreme disordered eating taking research/clinical attention away from 'milder' types like this. And of course, there doesn't seem to be much professional or public awareness that disordered eating is linked to trauma. Sigh.
I'm sorry Kizzie, that sounds really difficult. I didn't even know night eating was a separate syndrome. So thanks for speaking up. It's good to get the information out there. I've started on the 'night eating' path in recent years and I often don't get round to eating in the morning for hours. I'm trying to break that habit atm.
Quote from: Kizzie on March 01, 2021, 06:34:08 PM
And of course, there doesn't seem to be much professional or public awareness that disordered eating is linked to trauma.
Public awareness, no. Isn't there professional awareness?? :aaauuugh: I guess maybe not.
Quote from: Kizzie on February 26, 2021, 05:47:05 PM
I quit the weight management program when I heard the chipper voice of the dietician on the phone and just knew she would never understand what I was really struggling with (not calorie counting or any of that, it was the loss of comfort and not knowing how to replace that).
This is exactly how I feel every time a health care practitioner tries to tell me anything about how to lose weight or curb my bouts of problematic eating. The bit about the loss of comfort strongly hits home with me. My eating issues are under much better control than they used to be, but there still is that, and it still very frequently causes problems. I wonder if it is actually possible to replace that comfort, or even some of it, because if not then I suppose I will always have this awkward and conflicted relationship with my body and with the fuelling of it.
There really should be more attention paid to the connection between disordered eating and trauma. Now that I am looking at it that way, it seems so obvious. I've known for a long time that my eating issues are closely linked to the parent who abused me, especially because she was severely eating disordered herself and because the giving or restricting of food was one of the instruments of that abuse, but now thinking about it, I realise that nearly everyone I know who has trauma whether from similar sources to mine or not has some degree of disordered eating.
Quote from: Bach on March 02, 2021, 01:31:17 AM
I've known for a long time that my eating issues are closely linked to the parent who abused me, especially because she was severely eating disordered herself
When I confessed to my T that I had binge eating disorder (my diagnosis), I told him that I rarely remember seeing my mom eat. Also that after she died, my sister found a large stash of diet pills amongst her medications. My T said, "Your Mom had an eating disorder." That was news to me.
Kizzie, and everyone, thank you for sharing about this.
I didn't know "night eating" was a disorder in itself, this was just how my life was for a long time. In my (and others I know) experience, trauma and eating disorders are certainly closely linked. It is very frustrating that it is not a well known relationship. Hopefully it will get better in time, and we will see better results once it becomes more commonly known. Thank you again for posting, as it helps get the word out there, and raises awareness.
One thing I keep coming across in my reading about trauma is that researchers and clinicians tend to focus on where the money and obvious/clear issues are. Anorexia and bulimia are big T (ticket) types of disordered eating for which there is a lot of funding for research and treatment, whereas night eating not at all I think because overeating is still viewed as a lack of control, a defect of character/willpower if you will. "Just eat less and exersize more."
Anorexia and bulimia, ob the other hand, are clearly the result of psychological 'struggles' although not in response to trauma. I joined an online 8 weight course for eating disorders some months back and there was no connection of disordered eating behaviours to underlying trauma, that this might be why participants were controlling their eating, binging or in my case overeating. I left, again because I knew they did not have that trauma informed understanding I so need.
It's interesting that despite all the furor over the Adverse Childhood Experiences study at the moment - the $$$ and attention it is receiving, the connection of disordered eating to trauma still doesn't seem to have taken hold in professional circles or even with survivors.
I think we're on the leading edge of calling attention to the link and raising awareness.
This article discusses food addiction/obesity thru the lenses of neuroscience & attachment theory: https://psychotherapy.psychiatryonline.org/doi/full/10.1176/appi.psychotherapy.20180002. It doesn't mention relational trauma per se, but the whole notion of dysregulated attachment is born of RT as we all know only too well here.
What I like about this article is that it makes the point that disordered eating requires treatment in which the focus is on the underlying issues. How do I replace/turn the volume down on the part of me that needs to comfort/numb myself? :Idunno: Definitely need some TI help with this as I simply cannot white knuckle it through another weight management program in which the basic message is to eat less and exercise more.
This article gives some insights into how to tackle dysregulated eating due to dysregulated attachment, a BIG step forward IMO. I've started gathering more academic articles like this as I want to revisit trying to get the psych sector/provincial eating disorders organization interested in a trauma informed therapy group.
Quote from: Kizzie on May 02, 2021, 05:57:16 PM
I've started gathering more academic articles like this as I want to revisit trying to get the psych sector/provincial eating disorders organization interested in a trauma informed therapy group.
:applause: :applause: :thumbup: :cheer: for your advocacy work, Kizzie!
Tks BB! I also spoke to my T about getting a centre like Body and Soul in London going here. She's going to speak to her colleagues as they had actually been discussing something like this. I would LOVE to be a part of getting both or one of these going.
And at some point I'd like to go back to working with ISSTS but not quite there yet in terms of energy/time as still dealing w/my H's rehab from his stroke. He's doing very well but we're in the city 2-3 times/week and that eats up time and energy.
This is great, Kizzie! I'm so glad you found an article like that.
I've seen it in my own life, and in other's close to me. Knowing how to eat healthy is only a small part of the battle. Any underlying complications within the mind can really interfere with being able to put in to practice what is already known about health and nutrition. Of course, trauma is an extreme "complication", and can make it totally impossible.
QuoteDefinitely need some TI help with this as I simply cannot white knuckle it through another weight management program in which the basic message is to eat less and exercise more.
You're absolutely right. The basic message of eat less and exercise more is not what you need, and you shouldn't have to knuckle through something that is failing to help you. I'm not sure what the "TI" acronym stands for, but I hope you find the help you're looking for!
"TI" stands for "trauma informed" which none of the weight loss/management programs I've done were. TI programs need to know how to help survivors with eating issues how to find healthy ways to comfort ourselves which entails getting at the trauma to some degree and understanding that as a driver. I don't know about anorexia/bulimia but no doubt programs/treatment need to be TI also, same for a lot of addictive/self-harming behaviours. So much seems to come back to relational trauma.
Thank you for explaining that, Kizzie. I'm sorry I didn't make the connection on my own; I really should have. I completely agree that so much seems to come back to relational trauma.
I'm more concerned about you, though. :) Hopefully you have some sort of plan on how to tackle this with a new approach. I'd be interested to discuss, or even just hear, ideas on how to handle weight management in a TI way. I also don't want to ask too much or have you share anything you're uncomfortable with, though.
I think a TI weight program would necessarily need a psychologically guided/supported component that explores how overeating relates to the trauma we experienced. Participants would benefit from discovering the reasons why they use food to comfort and numb, explore ways of regulating emotions, developing healthier self-care, increasing connection to others, looking at ways of finding joy and fun and comfort ...
That's as far as I've gotten so far ;D
That all sounds like good stuff. :) Maybe it would be good to make a new post about it, so it doesn't hijack yours here? I feel like I'm already doing that a bit. :(
My first thought was to just go make a new post about it myself, but I'm not sure I'm the best person for it. I don't really have the experience, because my eating issues are different.
I'm also realizing that I know practically nothing about what you've been through i.e. your story and your healing journey. I'm sorry that I haven't invested more time in to you, when you have invested so much in to all of us. I tried looking for some of your journals, but I've had trouble finding them with so much information on the site here. Do you have a link handy?
I really wish I could be more helpful. I think "find healthy ways to comfort ourselves" is a crucial part of the process though. Good job for realizing that. :thumbup:
Quote from: Kizzie on May 06, 2021, 04:46:50 PM
I think a TI weight program would necessarily need a psychologically guided/supported component that explores how overeating relates to the trauma we experienced. Participants would benefit from discovering the reasons why they use food to comfort and numb, explore ways of regulating emotions, developing healthier self-care, increasing connection to others, looking at ways of finding joy and fun and comfort ...
I've actually done a lot of that already in an inpatient program but I guess it wasn't TI
enough or maybe the problem was simply that it was very early on in my recovery, too early maybe? It was either white-knuckled abstinence when I got home on and off for years or nothing doing. I find I can't write more but I wish you all the best with this, Kizzie and Jazzy and anybody else.
QuoteI've actually done a lot of that already in an inpatient program but I guess it wasn't TI enough or maybe the problem was simply that it was very early on in my recovery, too early maybe? It was either white-knuckled abstinence when I got home on and off for years or nothing doing.
So sorry it didn't help you BB. I know only too well about white knuckle dieting and then giving up and doing nothing. :hug:
I'm coming to see lately that therapy is likely how I will come to deal with my issues with overeating; doing a lot of work on learning how to deal with (release/face/integrate?) my stored pain and how to comfort myself when new pain comes up and/or I'm triggered. It's not about food per se, it's about never being comforted or learning to comfort myself in the face of overwhelming emotions.
And it's that ability to comfort is the trickiest part I think. My T and I are working on this right now so the jury's out, but I do hope I can learn how to do this and to regulate my emotions so they don't overwhelm me. We'll see how I fare as therapy progresses. :Idunno:
I also feel like I would benefit from group therapy for trauma survivors that focuses on overeating, why we do so, how we can comfort ourselves and receive comfort and support from others, etc. I know I do better when I know I'm not alone, when I can look at my issues through the eyes of others in terms of their experiences and their support. :grouphug:
All the best with therapy and embracing your emotions and feelings,
Kizzie.
QuoteI also feel like I would benefit from group therapy for trauma survivors that focuses on overeating, why we do so, how we can comfort ourselves and receive comfort and support from others, etc. I know I do better when I know I'm not alone, when I can look at my issues through the eyes of others in terms of their experiences and their support.
This really stands out to me. I remember one of the very few times I tried group therapy, there was a woman who spoke about how she baked to help her feel better, but then she ate all the sweets she baked, which caused her to gain weight.
I wasn't in a place to understand this at the time, but it sounds to me like this is exactly the sort of thing that would benefit from such a group. The reason I bring this up is because not only do I like the idea, but I believe there is a lot of need for it. I think of my brother as well. I wonder how many people would really benefit from this.
In fact, I have made a note of this on my to do list. I would really like to see this put in to action by someone. Thank you for sharing this. :)
<3 Jazzy
Quote from: Kizzie on June 25, 2021, 04:53:53 PM
QuoteI've actually done a lot of that already in an inpatient program but I guess it wasn't TI enough or maybe the problem was simply that it was very early on in my recovery, too early maybe? It was either white-knuckled abstinence when I got home on and off for years or nothing doing.
So sorry it didn't help you BB. I know only too well about white knuckle dieting and then giving up and doing nothing. :hug:
It did help in a way, just not long-term. It wasn't about dieting then for me, it was about keeping a meal schedule, eating regularily and in a healthy, non-distracted way e.g. chewing properly. Also separating feelings from food/eating. Even allowing myself certain foods. One of the problems was that the amount of energy going into all that meant I had no energy left for anything else. I did however learn way back then that eating or not-eating can be addictive behaviour. Also about how replacing one addictive behaviour with another doesn't equal healing.
:yeahthat:
These are a lot of great points, Blueberry! Thank you for sharing. :)
<3 Jazzy
QuoteI did however learn way back then that eating or not-eating can be addictive behaviour. Also about how replacing one addictive behaviour with another doesn't equal healing.
It took me ages to let myself acknowledge that BB, it was like I was keeping this secret. That is,
although I had given up smoking, shopping, etc., I knew the feelings were still there and food was now my sole source of comfort/distraction. Problem is as I gained weight it wasn't a secret anymore of course ( :doh:). I stopped wanting to see anyone that knew me when I was smaller because I didn't want to feel ashamed. That last part is something I never admitted out loud. Hopefully that signals a bit of progress :Idunno:
Thank you all for sharing your insights. I have always felt lucky that I haven't had problems with drugs and alcohol (and it's not from never trying them) but I know my relationship with food / eating is highly pathological and deeply intertwined with my trauma.
I can relate very much to eating as a means of finding relief in the face of pain and loneliness. One thing I didn't see mentioned, but I have also found to be true for me, is that being overweight is closely linked to my sense of threat / security. When I'm fat, people don't really notice me as much and so I feel like it allows me to hide, which is comforting to the part of me that is always afraid and sees everyone around me as a threat.
I know this isn't healthy though, because it contributes significantly to my isolation and loneliness. And I hate the way my body looks which wreaks havoc on my self concept. So it's something I will need to address as part of my work on allowing myself to feel safe and visible to others.
Quote from: KizzieThat last part is something I never admitted out loud. Hopefully that signals a bit of progress
Absolutely,
Kizzie! Great job on this accomplishment! :cheer:
<3 Jazzy
Thank you for sharing Zanzoken. This helps me understand a new perspective which I haven't considered before.
I wish you all the best in the work ahead of you on your healing journey. :)
<3 Jazzy
QuoteWhen I'm fat, people don't really notice me as much and so I feel like it allows me to hide, which is comforting to the part of me that is always afraid and sees everyone around me as a threat.
I have read this elsewhere Zanzoken. My T mentioned to me that the sexual abuse survivors she has worked with often have weight issues for a similar related reason - they believe it will keep perpetrators at bay.
It's interesting that I feel the opposite, like being fat makes me stand out as someone who isn't in control. It makes me feel much more vulnerable than when I wasn't overweight, like I can't hide what's really going on inside me.
It's revealing isn't it how we each view our weight? It's one reason I'd really like to have a group for those of us who overeat due to relational trauma - we (and MH professionals/doctors) could all learn a lot from one another.
Thank you Jazzy and Kizzie for your support and sharing your feelings. The relationship between food and RT is certainly something that could use more research and understanding, along with more institutional support in general for those of us with eating issues. We get so little compared to other substances, even when our eating closely resembles the same addictive pathology and comes with many of the same destructive consequences.
Quote from: zanzoken on June 29, 2021, 08:11:31 PM
Thank you Jazzy and Kizzie for your support and sharing your feelings. The relationship between food and RT is certainly something that could use more research and understanding, along with more institutional support in general for those of us with eating issues. We get so little compared to other substances, even when our eating closely resembles the same addictive pathology and comes with many of the same destructive consequences.
:yeahthat: 100%!
So admitting my issues with eating out loud was a big step. My shame has reduced somewhat and best of all I am now seeing a bariatric physician.
We talked a lot about the basics in my first appointment, but then I decided I was going to take a risk and tell her about my past, how food became a source of comfort and something to numb myself with. I told her it was the one thing I could not get control over except for limited amounts of time. I would white knuckle losing weight for only so long and then poof, I could not stand it any longer. It never felt like a willpower issue so much as something else, and gave her examples of what I'd achieved in my life that had taken a lot of determination and perseverance, quitting smoking and drinking among them.
I was waiting for the talk about having to change my thinking about eating but instead she talked to me about the body and brain in overeating and that there were medications available to help. And there it was, delight about being received instead of dismissed, and hope that maybe it wasn't just me struggling psychologically because of trauma, but that something in my brain and body was literally driving me to overeat.
She prescribed Ozempic which has a great track record for regulating blood sugar and insulin relating to diabetes (I just ticked over in my blood work), but also in weight loss. My understanding is that in addition to helping with insulin and blood sugar, it works in the brain to dial down the desire to eat and provide a feeling of satiety with much less food. Win - win.
I just started it so I don't have all that much to say yet. There are side effects so you have to start with small doses (injection once per week) and let your body get used to it.
In addition to giving me hope it has also reiterated to me that doctors in general MUST learn more about the physical effects of trauma. They need to routinely take a trauma history so they are aware of all the factors that contribute to comorbidities and help patients avert disease and illness with more tools, especially those that mitigate trauma.
That was a risk and brave of you to give the doctor personal background. I'm so glad that she heard and had at least some understanding and is taking steps to help.
Wow Kizzie! That's great! I agree with Not Alone it took a lot of courage to talk to your dr and open yourself up to lectures based on misunderstanding by the doctor. I'm so pleased they came through and had helpful things to try. Good for you for caring about yourself to take that risk.
Hi Kizzie,
That's great! I'm glad you found a physician who listened and was able to help. I just read through your thread now but body image, weight, health, eating sugar have all been issues for me. Sugar is the comfort that I never had and it's interesting to know that it affects hyperaroused children more.
I think you commented on my thread about gut disorder. I always felt like there was a physical component to what was happening emotionally with me, even though the doctors said it was all in my head. You're right, there needs to be more awareness between mind and body because they do affect each other in ways that science is only starting to put together. I'll add to the thread there what's come up as well but it's also interesting that it's specifically night eating. Night is a very vulnerable time and I've had EFs in dreams and woken up affected by things that have happened. Maybe it's a way to control that from happening?
dolly
Tks Armee and Not Alone, hopefully the medication will help me regulate my insulin and blood sugars AND give me a fighting chance with the physical aspects of overeating. It's certainly being touted as a game changer for both diabetes and weight loss. Fingers crossed. I'll update in a month or so.
Hey Dolly - One of the things I've read about Ozempic is it helps with cravings which for me is sugar too. I am also hoping it will help with night eating. I can't remember if I mentioned it to you in your thread but Night Eating Syndrome (NES) is actually a thing - seems a lot of us eat (versus just snack) at night. For me it started as comforting myself but over time I think evolved into a change in my brain/gut/nervous system. Fingers crossed Ozempic will help with that too and I don't have to white knuckle it any more. I'll check out your thread and I'll update here - you never know but we may find our way through this.
Thanks for sharing Kizzie, that's really interesting. I hope you do find relief with it, no one wants or should have to white knuckle anything. Hopefully too it spreads awareness about weight, body image, and will power too.
Hi Kizzie,
I just now read into this thread. I like that it brings up the brain/body connection, which is a new way of thinking for a lot of life's struggles. Up until only recently, I've always been taught that everything we do around self-harm has been behavioral issues that we have decisive control over. Like, "I was molested, so I thought about it, and logically strategized through a conscious decision to force myself to overeat so that I would become less attractive." Duh! That is NOT HOW IT WORKS! I sure as heck don't remember ever deciding to intentionally hurt myself as a conscious strategy for self-protection. But it's an easy answer, eh? Just blame the victim of a disorder and tell me to "just stop being traumatized." It makes way more sense to recognize that this self-destructive craving is some sort of trauma response that happened deep in my brain without me consciously deciding to suffer with it.
I eat very well, keep calories down, I avoid sugars and additives perfectly, but only during the first half of every day. When evening hits I start raiding the freezer and the cereal boxes. I'm not hungry but I yearn to eat unhealthy snacks. If there are cookies in the house I'm doomed. Chocolate is my drug. Every morning I want to be thin again. Every evening I repeat the words "F* it. I don't care" as I head to the freezer for another ice cream or to the pantry for another pastry. Sugars and fats give me a moment of physical happiness the same way that first drink of alcohol used to. (I'm pretty sure that my addictive drinking was more about the sugar than the alcohol).
I can successfully diet and lose up to 60 pounds at a time. I get so thin I can wear small shirts and 32 waist jeans. I feel like a million bucks, and I sleep and digest better. But I can't keep it up. I crave the sugars day in and day out. It goes against my wiring to stay on the healthy diet. Eventually there's a birthday party or my grandsons want me to take them out for ice cream and BAM!
The minute I taste a single nibble of sugar I crave more.
I can get stoned on canned frosting.
Blaming this on a behavioral issue is a mis-diagnosis that has never helped me change my behaviors. So why do I keep blaming this on my conscious behaviors? Any wrong diagnosis can only lead to the wrong cure. This isn't about behavior. This is a brain/body connection that was created by the crushing depression I live with on an hourly basis. This is trauma. This is chronic depression that I can't seem to climb out of.
I'm grateful that you've helped me reach this epiphany and I'm excited to follow your progress on Ozempic. I have high hopes that you find relief from this brain/body connection.
I've never heard of Ozempic, so I'm going to start research on it now. The side effects look important, but the side effects of overeating sugars and fats are nothing to ignore either.
Thank you for opening this dialogue. Good luck, and fingers crossed you are on to a positive game-changer.
Wow Papa, you could have been writing about me. I have gained and lost, gained and lost so much weight over the years I was feeling hopeless because once I started eating sugars, carbs and fats again, wham.
I didn't know there were meds to help with weight loss like Ozempic until I ticked over into being a diabetic which led to different conversations. The Ozempic has indeed cut my appetite but I still feel like I need to have something at bedtime - no carbs just some protein & salad & 2-3 squares of choc. So some definite progress on the lowest dose which is encouraging. I stay on .25 for another 2 wks so likely will not have much new to report until I up the dose to .5 and then to 1.0 4 wks after that. So far no symptoms other than a headache the 1st wk. We'll see how that goes as 20% do have some side effects although it seems like a % of those people overeat and/or eat things that cause symptoms (carbs and fats). I'm really careful to eat small amounts and stay away from carbs/fats because of what I read.
I'm having lab work on Nov 3 so will see what if anything has changed in terms of my diabetes counts, that's the important part.
Hey Kizzie,
I read this and remembered that I forgot to mention one important part on my SIBO thread - blood sugar. While I was with a PT, I was taking my blood sugar every morning and it was always high even though we were trying out all sorts of different diets which should have had an effect. I was tested for diabetes a few years ago but nothing was flagged. Apparently, SIBO has an effect in the regulation/deregulation of blood sugar and gut dysbiosis is high in diabetics (one reason diabetics are more susceptible to Covid). There's a lot of research out there for you to get into if interested.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6535288/
https://asm.org/Press-Releases/2021/January/Poor-Gut-Health-Connected-to-Severe-COVID-19,-New
dolly
Tks for this Dolly!
Kizzie and everyone,
I have very high hopes that this really helps you, Kizzie. I'm not yet diabetic, but with a long family history of it, I know it's just a matter of time. Ozempic may be good for me one day too. I know that eating disorders are a huge issue for many of us Fawn types, and that the solution is not an easy one.
I believe that my own eating disorder covers 1) physical (heredity and brain function), 2) mental (behaviors and habits) and 3) spiritual (my lack of self-love). Your post is addressing a Physical aspect of our eating disorders. This response will address a possible Spiritual aspect and how it affects the Mental habits.
Mental: As far as habit and behaviors go, I feel powerless against my mental behaviors associated with yo-yo-dieting right now, so for me to just say "I'm going to go on that same diet one more time and see if it sticks this time" is not productive. Doing the same thing while expecting different results is just a promise to repeat the cycle of yo-yoing one more time.
Spiritual: I've determined that I can't address my eating and laziness by "changing my behaviors" so I'm going to try to use the spiritual tack instead. (I believe spirituality is not exclusively a religious term but is how I fundamentally understand that I'm an integrated part of something bigger than myself).
My problem is self-loathing. CPTSD—the gift that keeps on giving, right? The only psychology course I've ever taken was The Psychology of Health 101, where I learned the psychological reasons why we do and don't take care of our health. The class helped me to understand that we make constant subconscious behavioral choices based on our fundamental beliefs. If I believe I'm not lovable, then naturally I make minute-by-minute subconscious micro-choices about diet and exercise behaviors which feed that belief.
I also believe that the human brain always makes choices to move away from the greatest pain. When we smoke, or binge drink, or overeat comfort foods, our brain is moving away from the greater pain of dealing with real life. Until we believe it's less painful to deal with EFs or real life, our brains will continue to choose the behavior that feels less painful.
To be blunt: I don't love myself. So, for me it's less painful each evening to eat comfort food and rest on the couch than it is to go against my belief that I'm not worth going to the trouble of eating healthy and going for a walk. So, every night, my brain moves away from it's perceived pain, which is toward TV and ice cream.
"And the day came when the risk to remain tight in the bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom." – Anias Nin. (Another of my all-time favorite famous quotes)
I quit smoking in 1988 and quit drinking in 2014 by learning, learning, learning about the negative effects of the addictions. In both cases I was at war with my addictions. From 2009 to 2014, it was Jim against Booze. I kept taking the wrong side. Every time I opened a bottle and made the excuse of why it was okay to drink that night, I took the booze's side, giving it more power against Jim. But by at least admitting that I was NOT serving my healthier self with every drink, then every time I opened a bottle and admitted that I was harming myself, I took Jim's side and gave a bit more energy to Jim's side of the war. Then I joined AA, but not to partake in their tricks and techniques, but to bombard Jim's side of the war with more and more knowledge. I never followed the 12 steps, nor took a sponsor. I just attended meetings for a year or so to listen over and over and over again to people telling me how booze ruined their lives and the lives of their families. The more I listened, the more evidence I gave to Jim's side of the war until one day the pain of the nasty side effects of drinking became greater than the pain of dealing with my EFs and self-loathing.
My goal now, is to try to find that same kind of information about food and exercise WHILE I seek help for the self-loathing. Maybe one day, I'll start to love myself enough that my micro-decisions of what I crave will start automatically choosing foods that make me feel good, instead of feeling lazy and bloated.
This is not an easy answer for any of us. I just hope that if I combine what you all know about how to control our eating with what I'm learning from my therapist and whatever books address the psychology of healing from the self-loathing aspect of CPTSD, that perhaps all these things will bombard my brain with reasons to move away from the greater pain of being overweight and lazy, and toward the lesser pain of feeling healthy and strong.
Learning about Ozempic is one of the sciences I'm choosing to learn about. Rather than just sit here thinking this is all behavioral, I'm wise to explore what you have learned, and see how it can fit into my multi-pronged approach to a better life. This strategy helped me quit smoking and quit drinking. Maybe, just maybe, I can follow this plan again and maybe it'll help with diet and exercise. I feel like I'm half dead right now, but I can't seem to find the strength to want to feel better. So I'm going to bombard my brain with information that hopefully moves the scale in my favor before it's too late to fix this.
Thanks Papa Coco for writing this. I appreciate your long posts because they are very thoughtful and thought-provoking. You are a good writer. Please keep sharing as you are able.
I haven't identified with binge eating, but I do. I also over drink but shy of being alcoholic or binge drinking. I think. Maybe. 1-2 drinks most nights. But before reading this I was standing in the kitchen feeling like garbage and I and the thought crossed my mind: you should drink some water you dummy. You need water." I attempted to ignore it but my brain reminded me it couldn't remember the last time I drank water. Like days and days. Probably I had a cup of herbal tea a few days ago. And i realized that i needed to treat myself better. I deserve to drink water when I'm thirsty, right? I mean I'm sorry this was never modeled to you little Armee but you're an adult now and you need to drink you idiot.
Your post makes me realize it is the kindness piece that is missing. I don't deserve to be taken care must be the message underlying this. And I can badger myself into drinking a cup of water by being mean but the real shift will be if I can love myself enough to listen to what I need and lovingly give it to myself.