I rarely engage in politics or get wrapped up in the news. It takes a lot to get me angry and upset in these areas, because I figure I usually have enough going on in my "real" life to get all worked up about things I don't have control over. Until now.
I'm coming from a place of a close family member for 30 years was an epidemiologist in Africa, and who I have always heard speak about pandemics and how they work. I've always found it fascinating because of hearing him talk about it. And the only way to keep them from spreading is to contain them immediately, as in, no in or out of the house, town, city, neighborhood, state.. as close in as you can identify the case(s). Or to whatever circumference of where the cases are found. In other words, as soon as it was discovered in Wuhan, no one should have been allowed in or out until it was contained and diminished. And then a little farther where it was discovered. DESPITE people "wanting" to have freedom to travel. Once people traveled all over, it was spread. So, in each place it was discovered, it needed to be strictly contained at that point. And so on.
It seems WHO leaders should have known this, and doctors around the globe should have known this, and leaders who are not doctors should have listened and acted. I feel strongly that this is in large part common sense. If lil' ol' unimportant me knows this information, why don't world leaders have sense or background knowledge to know to stop travel to contain a rapidly spreading virus. Why are we still talking about "get back to work" when it is in full force?? Why was the team who would have been on this let go, and if they hadn't been, what would THEIR recommendation been??
I am angry, because I apparently have no choice or control over my own life. I'm doing my part, sitting inside at home ALONE for weeks, having NO family member ask about my well being. Family members repeating this crazy nonsense of how it's "just the flu" and "taking away our freedoms." I am happy to do it, because I know protesting to the city government "I want my freedom!" is not going to slow or stop this virus. We COULD HAVE stopped it and we still could diminish it if people would cooperate, which is what I assumed would happen. But no! We are in the twilight zone and all kinds of people are happy to be out there spreading it and believing it's a myth.
My questions are these right now:
If doctors and researchers of the virus cannot even name how it is that some people are more likely to get it, why people of all ages are getting it, and why some people die with no underlying conditions while others have no symptoms at all, how to all of these people in the news "know" that it's "just like the flu" and that it's the "government" trying to "control us?" It's a process. Like some smart doctors are seeing that the ventilators really aren't curing that many people, so they are trying new ways that are turning out to be more effective. It takes time.
And, if we go back to businesses opening, like they were talking about Disneyland opening for "limited numbers of people" and restaurants having "spread apart tables" and everywhere having "temperature checks." How, if many people who spread it are asymptomatic, meaning they won't have a fever at all, what good is any of that going to do? It will still be spread exponentially. The only way these mass integrations could work is to insure everyone in the population is free of the disease through testing. And isolate the sick until they are cleared. We've slowed the spread some..now we want to go back to accelerating the spread?
I'm seriously not ok with these ignorant people potentially putting my health in danger because they don't believe in science or don't care to READ about the truth about the virus and how it spreads. There are people in the world who understand what should have been done and what still needs to be done, but apparently all of the people who get to make the decisions don't agree with facts.
So well said. Thank you.
Sometimes it seems absurd, that in the end the only thing that seems to matter is some vague deity identified only as The Economy. Huh? Somewhere along the road the idea of people's real lives and welfare was tossed onto the roadside, for fear of upsetting this wrathful economic deity. :stars:
And, as others have sadly shared, it's all eerily reminiscent of when our own selves were, and are, dismantled by others who denied our hurt for reasons based more on their need to strut their importance and power while dismissing our real hurts as signs of weakness (and why is that wrong anyway?) or ... who knows what they really meant and why in the current instance the god called economy can ride roughshod over that simple deity called Caring.
When it comes to leadership, I'll end by quoting one recent leader who, when asked if he'd read up on what he was talking about, replied: "We need leaders, not readers." Sigh :'(
Wow, yes, I think you're right Woodsgnome. It FEELS a lot like that familiar truth that doesn't matter for the sake of narcissists "looking" a certain way, or getting what's most important to them. In this case, money.
"And, as others have sadly shared, it's all eerily reminiscent of when our own selves were, and are, dismantled by others who denied our hurt for reasons based more on their need to strut their importance and power while dismissing our real hurts as signs of weakness (and why is that wrong anyway?) "
This really helped me understand where this extreme anger is coming from. It's like my feelings, and even my knowledge of facts in certain areas (like my own major in college), are completely dismissed by N-parents, while they take everything certain people say as gospel truth, without any question or investigation. Their friends, church leaders, choices of political leaders, and any ol' joe blow off the street, knows everything, and my sister and I are completely dismissed and shrugged off- treated like we are idiots. I've only more recently realized I'm NOT an idiot, especially in areas that I have sound knowledge and research. I just realize no one knows everything and why not consult people who have dedicated their life to studying things like pandemics, rather than just take any ol' money-motivated politician?
My T believes (and I agree) that anger is a response to injustice and in the case of COVID and a leader w/malignant NPD and a large band of flying monkeys, there's a LOT of that to go around. I'm not even American and I'm really angry, not because of politics, but the utter lack of humanity, abdication of responsibility, and of dangerous/life-threatening abuse being inflicted on a country and supported by some of its citizens.
I cannot fathom how/why so many seem to reject the science and don't see that Trump will cost more people their lives because of the lack of coordinated, rational, humane response. It all feels like living in the alternate reality of my NPD parents with their band of flying monkeys. And now here on a much larger scale, swaths of people are ignoring/ dismissing reality and putting others at great risk as a result. Boggles the mind and fills me with both anger and despair frankly.
(Note: Just to be clear, this thread is not about US/Trump's politics, it's the reactions/ responses to COVID, Trump's and others, and how it affects us as trauma survivors.)
amen to all of the above.
some of what i had to work on w/ my t recently was the absolute anger (i wasn't able to sleep - my anger had gotten to a dangerous, for me, level) i had at what's going on, how it's being dismissed/handled, and how the flying monkeys (love that phrase!) have even disrupted traffic on purpose because of their political agenda, and the heartbreaking rant of one healthcare employee who was incensed by their behavior because he couldn't get to work!
we are helpless in the face of this, and i had to come to a place of acceptance that i cannot control how other people think or what they do. still, the anger is righteous because our rights to safety and protection are being ignored, just as kizzie noted, like they were in childhood. yeah, no wonder this is affecting many of us here on the forum to an excruciating level. my heart is with all of you.
Your responses really help me come down a notch. I don't think I've ever been so sustainably angry in all my life. In the only other area of extreme anger, at least there was the piece that had me questioning myself if I was being too harsh, or if I should just have boundaries and try to get along. lol. But this, there is nothing about this I'm not furious about.
But, I have to find a way to bring it down and accept I can't control others. I do feel, though, that I can't be friends or family with these people. There are a lot of people around me thinking this absurd way (and others not). I can't deal.
Kizzie, the swath of people ignoring reality. Wow. Eyeopening and a reminder of no wonder no one believed me before. People want to be in denial, big time. It sounds like you have a good T. I have yet to find one. I feel like while the leader of other countries could have been more on top of a possible pandemic and how to respond, the citizens themselves are more reasonable and thoughtful people. And many Americans, too. But, as a whole, where I see people as more sensible, there are certain American types that would see that as a willingness to have my rights taken away. Noooo, it's a strategy to end a virus? I just don't get it.
San, helpless is how I feel. Definitely. I also feel that I am JUST now getting a handle on what happened to me and how that affects my relationships, and hoping to have a love relationship finally in life. To be more open, get back out there, and pursue dreams and love, like I used to before I blacked out and have lived in a hole for 10 years. I feel like now, my chances will be over. My niece and nephews chances may be over. I'm feeling pretty catastrophic about it all, and I need to stop. I guess I'm a realist now.
just to let you know, phoebes, i've also eliminated many people from my life who don't think the way i do anymore. i can't take the ignorance and denial they display, either. you're not alone in this.
i don't doubt things will get back to a place where we will again be able to pursue our dreams. it may not be tomorrow, but it will be there. i have faith on some level, and i'm just going to live by that. sending love and hug full of faith to you, too. :hug: maybe sharing my faith with you will help ease the catastrophic feeling for you. i hope so. it's a terrible way to feel. :yes:
Just a reminder to please avoid getting into the political aspects of the pandemic in the US because it will only lead to divisiveness and acrimony as we've seen play out over and over again there. Difficult I know and we really need to talk about the trauma we're experiencing, but we need to focus on how NPD affects us as survivors so the thread doesn't devolve along politically partisan lines. Tks!
So in terms of the traumatization I have been experiencing, it's safe to say watching the pandemic play out in the US under someone with malignant NPD has been shocking, horrifying actually, but not surprising. NPD is traumatizing, inhumane, dangerous & even life-threatening as many of us know from experience only too well. My only hope is that more people will now see NPD for what it is and that none of us will ever have our trauma invalidated or minimized again.
So, my uNd, who I realized at the holidays this year is more N than "en" after we talked and I set some boundaries. He went on 2 week vacation out of the country right as the pandemic was starting and said he had bought some spray that kills the virus, and this is just another flu.
Then, I checked on him twice during his trip to which he responded one word, as well as his wife would send me pics. One of the things I told him in our chat is that I had blocked her long ago and the reasons why. So this felt gaslighting.
Then, she said he would call when they got home, and he didn't. They got out the day the borders closed, and I was concerned. A week went by and I again reached out and asked how they were doing and that I never heard from him. He said fine, and they assume I'm working. :stars:
THEN, ever since then, he has not checked on me once. I thought maybe he isn't talking to me because of the things I said and boundaries set. But out of the blue he texted me the food he was eating. Then I saw a video he posted on FB saying political things as mentioned before that are really triggering, I think BECAUSE, here my dad doesn't care to check on me or have empathy for how I may be feeling or handling being alone for weeks, but cares to post crazy nonsense on his FB. This type of thing always feels like "lectures" to me. What is the point? To tell people how to think? To let people know how he thinks? I don't think it's that he doesn't care about me entirely, I think his mind is so wrapped up in his abusive NPD wife he isn't thinking how his offspring feel. At all.
QuoteI saw a video he posted on FB saying political things as mentioned before that are really triggering, I think BECAUSE, here my dad doesn't care to check on me or have empathy for how I may be feeling or handling being alone for weeks, but cares to post crazy nonsense on his FB.
It's hard to swallow I know, that your F would be so wrapped up in his NPD wife, he hasn't even asked how you are faring during this crisis. It's the nature of the beast (the beast being NPD) unfortunately, it consumes everyone's attention, time and energy, and makes rational thinking near impossible.
I'm sorry you aren't getting the love and support you need, want and deserve Phoebes. :hug:
Thank you, Kizzie. I appreciate your responses and support. I don't know what I would do without you guys here. :hug:
what kizzie said.
in my experience w/ npd's, they set their sights on the one thing they think will give them their narc supply, and everyone else needs to take care of themselves. sounds like your situation, too, and i feel for you, phoebes. love and hugs :hug:
There's a place for discussion about where and how to reopen the economy, and that I can appreciate. But the deniers and the "my freedom above all" are really getting to me as well. You're not alone.
:grouphug: Phoebes
San, that's a good way to look at it. Come to think of it, it's always been that way with both Nm and Nd. They get fixated on one thing or person and pursue supply.
I'm feeling angry at Covid deniers now too. My country is slowly moving out of the partial lockdown it was in. I mean our lockdown wasn't like in Spain or Italy where even children couldn't leave the house for about 6 weeks - which is really hard for all those without a garden. Whereas here - family bike rides, family walks - all fine so long as the family keeps distance from any people they don't live with. We have to wear cloth masks on public transport or in shops and we're meant to keep 1.5 - 2 metre distance from others, but plenty of people are beginning not to bother, or never have bothered. The cloth masks or other face-covering we are meant to wear helps those around us so it only works if everybody wears it, and not everybody does. I've even been made fun of for wearing cloth masks.
I'm slightly triggered because FOO especially M used to be very derisive about my 'gullibility' and I think that's what people around me think about us mask-wearers. :fallingbricks:
Blueberry, this is definitely a time where everyone seems to be living our their true feelings. The way I see it is, scientists and doctors are learning more and more each day about how this virus behaves. I'm feeling a bit better that my immune is pretty good, but even more alarmed at how many could be asymptomatic, including myself. I don't feel fearful, but I feel like it's not courteous or thoughtful of others to o around in close quarters with no mask just yet.
I just think, ya know, do what's necessary, grocery-wise, wear a mask in public around people as a courtesy and safety precaution. It couldn't hurt if everyone would do it. People who don't show themselves to truly be either know-it-alls or in complete denial. I'm lucky I don't live in one of those hostile places in the US, but there are a few people like that around. Anyway, just like everything else, there's all kinds running around and only a few can be trusted. ;)
Some of my family is so whacked out now I would take it as a compliment if they made fun of me...if we were speaking. ;D
I posted this article elsewhere but this thread seems like a good place to post it again. How Narcissists Use DARVO to Escape Accountability (https://www.narcissisticabuserehab.com/darvo/) Apr 2020.
It has been incomprehensible to me why anyone would support the racist, misogynistic, cruel N behaviour of a leader including denying and minimizing a deadly virus but the article explained so much. I knew about the techniques N's use (i.e., DARVO) but not that they would/could have such a collective appeal or impact. (Note: I am not talking about the politics of DJT, it is his NPD behaviour and in this case how it affects others.)
DARVO as a collective grooming tactic
The cognitive distortions created by DARVO cultivate an ecosystem of moral corruption. Members of the peer group are encouraged by the narcissist to engage in polarized or black and white thinking.
The group's empathy for the narcissist is weaponized and used to encourage negative biases about the recipient of the abuse. Narcissists, psychopaths and other manipulators do this in order to ensure that members of the dominant clique become indifferent and callous about the betrayal of the survivor.
The desensitization of the group opens the door to the objectification of the targeted individual and once this is accomplished every kind of violence becomes acceptable. Examples of this can be seen in manifestations of anti-semitism, racism, sexism and homophobia.
Why do bystanders participate in collective betrayal?
According to Dr. Freyd betrayal blindness is a survival mechanism that arises "when awareness would threaten necessary relationships." In other words, bystanders yield to betrayal blindness in the interest of looking out for themselves and to avoid the loss or pain they might risk if they sympathized with the target.
They assign more value to their relationship with the abuser so it follows that it's in their best interest to empathize with the narcissist not with the survivor. In fact, in many cases bystanders may stand to gain more social capital if they lend their support to the narcissist. So it is usually a combination of greed for gain and an instinct for self-preservation that eclipses any ethical or moral considerations in the bystander. In other words, members of the clique adapt to conflict within the group by "turning a blind eye," to the harmful behaviors of the narcissist.
As to what can be done other than going no contact which in this case an entire nation and for that matter the world cannot do, is to take him out of power. Tragically that doesn't look like it will happen until Nov so many more will become sick and lose their lives as a result.
i'm voting for the first time in nearly 20 years - most of that time spent in mexico, so i couldn't participate in the past presidential election.
i'm hearing about so many cities in the u.s. reopening, and images of people walking around, maskless, not keeping a safe distance, recklessly demonstrating their disdain for safety measures orders from above to reopen factories where the virus has already taken its toll - the frustration and anger about all this is nearly incomprehensible and unbearable for me. i've already resigned myself to basically being isolated for a very long time - maybe years. i'm extremely vulnerable, both by age and damaged lungs, so i don't care what others think - i keep my distance from everyone, don't go into enclosed places, like stores, and if our farmers market opens up and my d and i participate, selling our books, oh, yes, i'll be wearing a mask and have disinfectant on our table. it's outdoors and our table will help keep a distance between us and customrers.
i also understand that there may never be a vaccine for this particular virus, just like there is none for the common cold or HIV - both of which have been around for many, many years. i'm resigned to that, and i'm ok with it. but, i will definitely keep my distance until it's safe for me not to. which may be never. i don't see this as over yet, and i also don't see any leadership for many of the states, let alone people themselves denying what this is all about.
DARVO is one of the worst manipulations i've come across, and it's been used on me personally several times. this whole situation stinks. i just wonder what the toll has to be before both leaders and citizens take this seriously.
Kizzie, that makes so much sense. Not only on a personal level but governmental level. I've always thought there is a lot of secrecy and things going on in government that isn't in the best interest of the people.
Maybe I just have a built in monitor for things never being what they seem, and you never know what's happening behind closed doors. You will always see one face in public and a quite different one behind the scenes. The people who are supposed to "know" things don't, and often don't have your best interest in mind. They would just as soon squash you as a bug. It all goes together. Gee I don't know why that is the lens through which I see people.
And as far as what is behind this covid thing...this is an eye-opener for sure if anyone's interested:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IsuCa6V7prg&feature=youtu.be
I did see the video yesterday but it had been taken down when I went back to day. Interesting that it was removed. It sure fired up the Internet and Twitter though so hopefully we'll get some more info so we can decide whether it was factual or not.
The thing we do need to focus on here of course isn't the politics, but the way situations like the pandemic and the way people are behaving affect our CPTSD symptoms. I spent my session yesterday talking with my T about how difficult it was to calm my system when there are so many ignoring physical distancing, demonstrating for quick re-opening, ignoring the science, etc. For me they are a very real danger right now in the present. I do know though that it relates to my past trauma because people are putting themselves ahead of me as was the case in my family. I can understand needing to work, it's the wanting haircuts and to go to the nail salon that breaks my heart because it smacks of the sense of entitlement my NPD family had/has and the lack of regard for others. I've even seen articles/comments about how certain lives matter more than others - which is the message I got throughout childhood. "You do not matter." So my system is on high alert understandably.
Another difficult thing to deal with is the distortion of reality based on what deniers want, and the attacks they launch on anyone who speaks up to them. Just like in my home and why it takes a LOT for me to speak out but I do because I feel I must or these folks will only get worse. Plus I'm an adult now and do have power although there are days I feel I am screaming into the abyss.
I definitely relate to everything you said, Kizzie. It would be one thing if an actual respectful conversation based on facts could come out of it, but it always seems the ones who think so highly of themselves are the loudest and who ultimately get their way. No matter the facts, they seem to feel entitled to scream their opinion and views onto other but others aren't allowed. This definitely reflects directly with my family dynamic.
It's funny about the hair and nails...it did spark some flashbacks in me..can people not just deal with their hair and not expect it to be a certain way? I have a cousin who didn't participate in her sister's Zoom 50th birthday party because "people would see her roots." She would have been the only one to notice or care in our group.
Nm and GCs are very overly concerned IMO about hair, nails and make-up. It has to be right. All the time. Growing up, from early childhood through high school I got myself up at 6, went directly to the kitchen and poured myself a bowl of cereal, read the cereal box while eating (it was always one of two brands), and then got ready and went to school. This to me was normal-never thought anything of it.
But now, I think, Nm was up at 5:15, and took 2.5 hours per morning locked in her bathroom doing hair and make-up, always dressed to the "t" when leaving. She interacted with me to approve of my clothes, hair and later, make-up. I didn't have the choices kids have now to just be themselves. I think, most people I know make different things for breakfast and at least interact in the kitchen about breakfast. There may be eggs, or waffles, or bacon, or yogurt, or fruit. Not the same cereal every day for 13 years.
All the while, interacting with Nm over appearance was never a fun mother-daughter activity or way to connect. It was just another area where she made the rules and called the shots, and I had to comply or it got very abusive. So, any time I head about hair and nails, all of this and the specifics comes to mind. I feel like every single thing in life is attached to triggers, and I realize more and more how abnormal and utterly unloving everything was.
QuoteIt would be one thing if an actual respectful conversation based on facts could come out of it, but it always seems the ones who think so highly of themselves are the loudest and who ultimately get their way. No matter the facts, they seem to feel entitled to scream their opinion and views onto other but others aren't allowed. This definitely reflects directly with my family dynamic.
It's entitlement gone amuck and they keep on doing it because by bullying they often do get away with it. All that matters is what they want when they want it and heaven help you if you stand in their way. My family was often more covert about this (e.g., if my M didn't want to hear something I was saying she would just start talking over me), but it was definitely the same bottom line. If I pushed things out would come the N rage, smear campaigning, FOG, etc., all to shut me down.
In terms of N vanity, my F used to spend an hour or more every morning in the bathroom and when we lived in houses with only one bathroom that could be a problem for a child with a nervous bladder. I remember being afraid to knock on the door because he would be so po'd, like I was asking for the moon.
When my son graduated 2 years ago I remember my M having a bit of an N moment because no-one had taken a picture in her new outfit. There was always a requirement to admire any and all new clothing and I had forgotten the 'rule' in the excitement of the day apparently.
Anyway, tired of flattering, coddling, giving in to bullying and vanity and all the rest of the hurtful nonsense of NPD behaviour from anyone, but finding it especially hard to deal with in a pandemic.
:hug::grouphug:
Quote from: Blueberry on May 04, 2020, 08:26:04 PM
We have to wear cloth masks on public transport or in shops and we're meant to keep 1.5 - 2 metre distance from others, but plenty of people are beginning not to bother, or never have bothered. The cloth masks or other face-covering we are meant to wear helps those around us so it only works if everybody wears it, and not everybody does. I've even been made fun of for wearing cloth masks.
I'm slightly triggered because FOO especially M used to be very derisive about my 'gullibility' and I think that's what people around me think about us mask-wearers. :fallingbricks:
I hear where you are coming from but object to the idea that those of us not wearing masks must be 'in denial' or 'not bothering'. I have extremely good reasons for NOT wearing a mask. Terrible things were done to me in childhood and having to wear a mask now is HUGELY TRIGGERING FOR ME. I feel angry that people assume that my not wearing a mask is because I don't care or can't be bothered. I don't wear a mask because I would like to stay in my body and not have to deal with emotional flashbacks for days afterward.
Fortunately, where I live the person in charge of public health recommends masks but is adamant that she would never mandate them because many people have very good reasons for not being able to wear one. Unfortunately a number of businesses have been mandating it for entry to their location, and I fear the more will follow their lead, narrowing my already too narrow world even more and making it impossible for me to accomplish the simplest tasks such as getting groceries or doing my laundry (I go to a location outside my apartment building), etc.
Consider that many of us have VERY GOOD REASONS FOR NOT WEARING A MASK. Reasons that have NOTHING to do with being uncaring or lazy. This physical-distancing has been very difficult for me - for all of us - financially, emotionally, psychologically, spiritually and physically. I am really disappointed that on this type of site, of all places, I need to explain that mental health matters and that triggers are real, and that judging people for things you do not understand is patently unfair. Many of us have good reasons for not wearing masks and those reasons have nothing to do with apathy or laziness.
Quote from: I like vanilla on June 25, 2020, 11:15:52 PM
I hear where you are coming from but object to the idea that those of us not wearing masks must be 'in denial' or 'not bothering'. I have extremely good reasons for NOT wearing a mask. Terrible things were done to me in childhood and having to wear a mask now is HUGELY TRIGGERING FOR ME. I feel angry that people assume that my not wearing a mask is because I don't care or can't be bothered. I don't wear a mask because I would like to stay in my body and not have to deal with emotional flashbacks for days afterward.
Fortunately, where I live the person in charge of public health recommends masks but is adamant that she would never mandate them because many people have very good reasons for not being able to wear one. Unfortunately a number of businesses have been mandating it for entry to their location, and I fear the more will follow their lead, narrowing my already too narrow world even more and making it impossible for me to accomplish the simplest tasks such as getting groceries or doing my laundry (I go to a location outside my apartment building), etc.
Consider that many of us have VERY GOOD REASONS FOR NOT WEARING A MASK. Reasons that have NOTHING to do with being uncaring or lazy. This physical-distancing has been very difficult for me - for all of us - financially, emotionally, psychologically, spiritually and physically. I am really disappointed that on this type of site, of all places, I need to explain that mental health matters and that triggers are real, and that judging people for things you do not understand is patently unfair. Many of us have good reasons for not wearing masks and those reasons have nothing to do with apathy or laziness.
I am so sorry that you're feeling this way, and that you have to go through this everyday. I agree with your point, and I personally feel that judgement shouldn't be made that easily, especially at times like these when people are most on edge with safety for their health. I don't know what else to say but send you support if it's ok (and if not, it's completely ok).
Quote from: I like vanilla on June 25, 2020, 11:15:52 PM
I hear where you are coming from but object to the idea that those of us not wearing masks must be 'in denial' or 'not bothering'. I have extremely good reasons for NOT wearing a mask. Terrible things were done to me in childhood and having to wear a mask now is HUGELY TRIGGERING FOR ME. I feel angry that people assume that my not wearing a mask is because I don't care or can't be bothered. I don't wear a mask because I would like to stay in my body and not have to deal with emotional flashbacks for days afterward.
Consider that many of us have VERY GOOD REASONS FOR NOT WEARING A MASK. Reasons that have NOTHING to do with being uncaring or lazy. This physical-distancing has been very difficult for me - for all of us - financially, emotionally, psychologically, spiritually and physically. I am really disappointed that on this type of site, of all places, I need to explain that mental health matters and that triggers are real, and that judging people for things you do not understand is patently unfair. Many of us have good reasons for not wearing masks and those reasons have nothing to do with apathy or laziness.
I get what you're saying and I'm sorry that my post triggered you. However there is a lot of denial round about on Covid. Just think of a certain number of well-known English-speaking politicians... I doubt they leave masks off and shake hands etc because they know they're about to get an EF. The business owner next door to me says "I'm not frightened, I don't need to wear a mask." We pass in the same narrow corridor. I can't avoid him, nor can my clients.
In my post which you replied to, I wrote that I'm triggered about being ridiculed for wearing a mask - which has happened a few times - and for worrying that people think I'm gullible for believing that I need to wear one. That's a very big trigger for me. So I DO understand about mental health issues and wanting to avoid EFs. I have cptsd too!!
ime people with cptsd can trigger each other. I'm really sorry that my post triggered you, later on today when I have more time I'll look at my original post again and see if I can change it a bit to be less triggering or less judgemental.
I hadn't thought it might be a trigger for some of us due to past trauma I Like Vanilla and I'm sorry it is for you given the times right now. :hug:
I would say that for the vast majority of people who choose not to wear a mask, the underlying reason is not this and that's what is upsetting for so many of us. Our very health/lives are at stake and as we're seeing in the US and elsewhere right now COVID spreads when we don't take measures like wearing masks, physical distancing, hand washing, etc.
I've had a similar experience to BBs of being ridiculed for wearing one so it goes both ways. Anger and fear are high right now and we're each likely to be judged for wearing or not wearing a mask. Let's please try and remain a safe place to talk about how CPTSD affects us and be understanding and supportive of one another.
Yep well it happened. I've been very diligent in wearing masks in public (AKA not breathing my droplets into the nearby atmosphere or others to breathe, regardless of how annoying it is). My sister SAYS she was "being careful, but you have to go on living", taking the kids to karate, dance, and shopping for unnecessary things at the stores.
I caved because I wanted to see the kids, I brought one to my house for the week, and two days later my sis has covid. So, my niece was definitely exposed, now I'm exposed. AND, I have a sick sister with a vulnerable child in her home, with no help. I have my potentially infected and vulnerable niece in another city, probably for days or weeks longer than planned (which I'm glad for in the moment.) I had other plans, too, as I only have 3 weeks off before starting back to school. And now, it will likely be in quarantine, and possibly sick, or nursing a sick family member in my tiny house.
If it was random and unexpected it's one thing, but we are in a major hotspot, and I just feel like this was SO unnecessary, and it is because of the disbelieving, "anti-fearful" and UNSCIENTIFIC attitude of the people living in her town, as well as, let's face it, her as well. I feel bad she's sick. but I am also angry. She is younger, and my immune isn't so good. I don't WANT it so I have been doing my part, and she literally said, "well, we're all going to get it eventually, so...." Thanks.
It sucks that there could be triggers involved. The protests trigger some things in me as well. Still, the science is the science. Droplets coming out of the mouth need to be curtailed, and if they can't be, they need to be kept away from people. I decided to venture out to drop some things at goodwill. Instead of letting me put them out on the porch, they had a sign that said pull to the curb and we will get thte stuff out of your trunk. No contact allowed. So I followed that, and the oblivious worker ran right up and put his full upper body in my car, no mask and asked loudly what I want him to take. The stuff in the effin' trunk!! *. I can't even. Sorry.
I might also add that I am mad at MYSELF for going against my gut and bringing my niece to my house. I did very much want to see her, but as cases were rising, I had a bad feeling, but I also allowed my sister to somewhat shame me for being so "overly" cautious, and I "already said" for a long time I would keep the kids each for a week, giving her a break, as well as they were already looking forward to it so it would be so disappointing for them now to "go back on my word." In other words, I guess I'm still so co-dependent I'm easily shamed into doing the wrong thing. But if I had said no, and no one had gotten sick, I would be the "liberal who wants to live in fear."
I'm sorry, Phoebes. Sending support and hoping that by some miracle your niece isn't a carrier. :hug:
QuoteBut if I had said no, and no one had gotten sick, I would be the "liberal who wants to live in fear."
I'm right there with you! It is maddening to go out in public and see crowds of people with no masks. It feels so disrespectful to me, so utterly selfish. I already have a hard time being around people and this makes it even more difficult.
The ones that say we're living in fear just because we want to be considerate (as I'm sure you know, masks are to keep those who have it but have no symptoms from spreading it) and as safe as possible really irritate me. We wear seat belts, use sunscreen, lock our doors at night, :blahblahblah: :blahblahblah: :blahblahblah:
and so do they, but somehow using a mask is different from these preventive safeguards. :Idunno: This blind double standard triggers me greatly.
i heard someone talking on the news the other day about when we were fighting against the polio virus. he said we acted as a community against it - everyone knew what precautions to take, and we all did so, even without governmental mandates and the like. (i remember my mom telling us not to drink really cold water after we'd been out playing hard). he believes that the idea of community is what's missing during this time.
it's a shame, really. taking care of oneself and others is, to me, the opposite of weakness or fear. it's consideration, caring, and the strength to do as much as possible to help ourselves and others stay well. there have been many rules set in place to eliminate the hazards of second-hand smoke in public places - how is wearing a mask any different? smokers have been inconvenienced, but they complied.
here's hoping everyone is healthy and takes precautions that simply make sense during this dreadful time in our history.
I totally agree. In my travels I've seen tons of people wearing masks. I've never seen anyone picketing to be allowed to spread germs. Until now.
Also, it's just the notion that so many just HAVE to go shopping, eat out, etc. WHY? Out small businesses are staying afloat with takeout and curbside and other options. It's this "defiance" or even denial that drive all these people to go "I'll show them! I'm goin' TOOBIN' with a million others, and then going to my family reunion!"
There is more to the backstory of my frustrations over this, but I am seeing I live in an extremely ignorant and selfish location in the world. YUCK.
It is defiance and denial and it is frightening that so many are anti-government, anti-science, me first. It seems to me now after watching these folks during COVID that narcissism has taken root in society far beyond anything I had ever imagined and THAT keeps me up at night.
As those of us here who suffered N abuse know, it is near impossible to get N's to listen to any kind of reason, to abide by the social contract if it doesn't suit them (and which we all need to be able to live together), to understand they are not extra special and smarter than everyone else, and that their rights/wants do not trump yours and mine.
How on earth do you turn mass NPD around? That's the question that haunts me right now. The only thing that ever worked for me with regard to N's in my life was to walk away and we can't do that in this kind of situation.
IMO we're going to have to: become louder about calling them out; better at identifying them and pushing back personally, socially, even legally; keep them out of positions of power; prevent /intervene in childhood trauma/abuse/neglect that leads to the development of NPD, etc.
COVID has been an eye opener in so many ways, I just hope we will learn from this about the danger of those with NPD to those around them.
Quote from: Blueberry on June 26, 2020, 01:42:41 PM
Quote from: I like vanilla on June 25, 2020, 11:15:52 PM
I hear where you are coming from but object to the idea that those of us not wearing masks must be 'in denial' or 'not bothering'. I have extremely good reasons for NOT wearing a mask. Terrible things were done to me in childhood and having to wear a mask now is HUGELY TRIGGERING FOR ME. I feel angry that people assume that my not wearing a mask is because I don't care or can't be bothered. I don't wear a mask because I would like to stay in my body and not have to deal with emotional flashbacks for days afterward.
Consider that many of us have VERY GOOD REASONS FOR NOT WEARING A MASK. Reasons that have NOTHING to do with being uncaring or lazy. This physical-distancing has been very difficult for me - for all of us - financially, emotionally, psychologically, spiritually and physically. I am really disappointed that on this type of site, of all places, I need to explain that mental health matters and that triggers are real, and that judging people for things you do not understand is patently unfair. Many of us have good reasons for not wearing masks and those reasons have nothing to do with apathy or laziness.
I get what you're saying and I'm sorry that my post triggered you. However there is a lot of denial round about on Covid. Just think of a certain number of well-known English-speaking politicians... I doubt they leave masks off and shake hands etc because they know they're about to get an EF. The business owner next door to me says "I'm not frightened, I don't need to wear a mask." We pass in the same narrow corridor. I can't avoid him, nor can my clients.
In my post which you replied to, I wrote that I'm triggered about being ridiculed for wearing a mask - which has happened a few times - and for worrying that people think I'm gullible for believing that I need to wear one. That's a very big trigger for me. So I DO understand about mental health issues and wanting to avoid EFs. I have cptsd too!!
ime people with cptsd can trigger each other. I'm really sorry that my post triggered you, later on today when I have more time I'll look at my original post again and see if I can change it a bit to be less triggering or less judgemental.
Thank you. It is a conundrum, eh? There is a total double-bind happening where I live right now, and it seems in many other places. I get the stink eye at the store for not wearing a mask (and the last couple that did it also get totally in my space, completely disregarding the 2 m distancing rule, that health-care experts have been mandating from the start). On the other hand a close friend of mine got the stink eye for wearing a mask while she was grocery shopping. Plus, it sounds like you are getting worse than that, which I am sorry to hear.
The whole double-bind, no-win situation is one that those of us on this board have likely seen too much of already. It is a shame that it has flowed out to too much of the world around us. I wish more people would listen to what the public health official where I live says (not just about encouraging but not mandating masks). She says: "Be calm. Be kind. Be safe" I think that that sums it up fairly well.
Quote from: Kizzie on June 26, 2020, 03:35:34 PM
I hadn't thought it might be a trigger for some of us due to past trauma I Like Vanilla and I'm sorry it is for you given the times right now. :hug:
I would say that for the vast majority of people who choose not to wear a mask, the underlying reason is not this and that's what is upsetting for so many of us. Our very health/lives are at stake and as we're seeing in the US and elsewhere right now COVID spreads when we don't take measures like wearing masks, physical distancing, hand washing, etc.
I've had a similar experience to BBs of being ridiculed for wearing one so it goes both ways. Anger and fear are high right now and we're each likely to be judged for wearing or not wearing a mask. Let's please try and remain a safe place to talk about how CPTSD affects us and be understanding and supportive of one another.
I would guess - and dearly hope - that no one else has the same trigger to facial masks that I do. However, I know of people who have had other terrible things done to them that would make wearing a face mask a trigger, and suspect there are many others who do also. I also personally know several people who have extreme sensitivity to materials, especially around their faces, which would make wearing of these masks extremely problematic for them physically. Similarly, I know people, for example, who are on the Asperger's-autism spectrum which, in their cases, makes wearing a face mask extremely problematic. I can also imagine numerous other reasons that people might have that would cause them to have difficulties in wearing a face mask. I cannot, and will not speak to "the vast majority" because the point is that those of us in the minority still count. Even if I were the only person on the entire planet who has reasons different than laziness and apathy for not wearing a face mask, I would still count. Our health and our lives matter too.
And, yes, I agree that it would be great if these boards were made safe for **everyone** using them, even those of us in the minority (and I would bet that even though I am the only one who said something I am not the only one who feels this way). Instead, I get severely triggered about a factor that is tied to a hugely traumatic set of childhood events, come to the forum to seek support, and instead read blanket judgments like disrespectful, entitled, selfish, ignorant, uncaring, inconsiderate, bullying, narcissistic, etc., etc., etc. about the very behaviour that is so triggering and problematic to me. Yes, some people are choosing not to wear masks for wrong reasons, but many of us have good reasons for not wearing masks, and there is little to no nuance in these discussions, just blanket judgments and condemnations. And yes, we still count even if we are in the minority. We all have our own stories and no one is able to read minds about what those stories are. Many of us have very good reasons to not wear masks that have nothing to do with entitlement and selfishness, nor apathy, lack of manners, etc., etc., etc. It is a shame that this board has become such an unsafe place for us to even try to discuss it.
Vanilla, maybe you could start a new thread about your topic at hand. This thread was about something entirely different than what you are talking about and wasn't meant as a personal attack on your perspective.
That said, regardless of anyone's reasons for wearing or not wearing masks, the science behind how the virus spreads is the same.
I don't think anyone here would disagree with your point that some people don't really have a choice about wearing masks I Like Vanilla. The topic in the thread was about being triggered by COVID deniers and those choosing not to wear masks and physical distance for selfish reasons and putting us at risk. We very much need to talk about that here because it is just so triggering based on our past abuse, the willful disregard for our health and well-being by others.
That said, I for one think it's important to understand the difference between making a choice and not really having a choice as in the examples you have provided. Any time we can be more informed is a good thing and understanding this means we have a deeper understanding of the issue overall.
QuoteWe very much need to talk about that here because it is just so triggering based on our past abuse, the willful disregard for our health and well-being by others.
My sibling attempted to drown me when I was 12, he was 17. To this day, I have to tell myself to breathe anytime I see someone not able to breathe, especially if they're in water.
Because of that, wearing a mask did trigger me at first - but because I want to be respectful, sensitive to the needs of others, and because I know that my triggers are my own to deal with, I pressed on and got through it.
I also absolutely do know that there are some who just can not wear one. I just don't believe that most people who don't wear one are doing so because they can't, but because they won't. I feel disrespected and minimized every time I go out in public.
QuoteI also absolutely do know that there are some who just can not wear one. I just don't believe that most people who don't wear one are doing so because they can't, but because they won't. I feel disrespected and minimized every time I go out in public.
I wonder what it must feel like for medical professionals. They are gloved, gowned and masked from head to toe for the majority of their 12 hr shifts trying to save the lives of people terribly ill with COVID and more often that not losing the battle. And many of them have chosen to isolate from their families so they don't infect them.
The ongoing exposure to the overwhelming demand on their skills and knowledge and the loss of so many to the virus, dealing with the fallout from governments not implementing suppression measures, and seeing people who choose not to wear a mask and/or physical distance has to be incredibly demoralizing if not traumatic. Like us when we realized the world was not as safe/sane as we thought and needed it to be, many of them are likely to be shifting their thinking and feeling, and adopting strategies to survive that aren't exactly healthy in 'normal' times. All this is to say I wouldn't be surprised if we see the development of C/PTSD in their ranks.
I agree. We've also spoken to many retail workers who feel they are being made to wear masks when their customers won't, effectively making them feel 2nd class.
I've seen some of the videos of store employees trying to deal with angry customers and frankly I don't think they pay them enough.
I wonder if/when this behaviour will die down as the numbers of people testing positive for COVID continues to go up and more people become seriously ill/die. At what point will reason kick in that individual rights in the middle of a pandemic are trumped by the collective health and well-being of everyone? It's one thing if you choose to risk illness/death yourself, but when you make a choice that may well result in severe illness or death for others it's quite another.
Phoebes, how is it going?
Hey Blueberry, thanks for asking! So, my sister has it. My nephew is showing symptoms. I may wind up with my niece all of July but that's ok. I'm a little more relieved that so far we have been well and I mostly was feeling horrible because of insomnia. We're still not in the clear but hopefully my nephew is not sick or will not have a bad time of it. I've heard where sometimes symptoms get better and then get worse or change. We'll see. I feel bad for everyone, and I feel somewhat bad I felt more anger than compassion at first. I feel like my sister had been more careful than I gave her credit. I have just been super diligent and probably have developed a lot of anxiety about it.
sending wellness vibes to your family, phoebes. i hope everyone recovers quickly and smoothly if they have it.
these are terrible times. i think we're doing the best we can. love and hugs, my dear. :hug:
I hope your sister and your nephew if he has it will only have mild symptoms Phoebes :grouphug:
Thank you both. I'm sort of back to feeling resentful because I found out today that she got it from an elderly woman she works for (cleans) who was home, not wearing a mask, and had 3 caretakers come by with no masks. My sister and her partner also weren't wearing masks, and it turns out the elderly woman had covid. So there it is.
The thing is, my sister KNOWS how I feel about all of this, how diligent I've been. She told me when she went back to work they were only cleaning empty homes (no one allowed to be there) and wearing masks. Apparently not only was that a lie, but she does not respect my feelings about it. I would have never agreed to keep the kids had I knows she was in situations like that.
I get so tired of NO ONE in the family respecting me, my feelings, my right to choose. It's typical scapegoat BS. Oh, Phoebes is being diligent in staying healthy and has known feelings and standards about social distancing. Well who TF cares?
Good grief. That would really wind me up, Phoebes.
I hope everyone gets better soon.
:yeahthat: That's really hard to take Phoebes and for so many reasons, not the least of which is disrespect for you :grouphug:
:yeahthat:
not being respected is so demeaning to the spirit. i hope everything turns out ok.
honestly, it amazes me how many people are ignoring all the warnings during this time, and belittling those who are heeding them. love and hugs, phoebes :hug:
:yeahthat: All of what everybody wrote. I would be really angry and feel betrayed, I think, because of the lies. This is serious stuff! Not to be taken lightly. Yet some people are taking it lightly :pissed: :pissed: :pissed:
Sending support Phoebes :grouphug:
I would feel angry and disrespected! :pissed: :blowup:
Thank you all!! UGH. I do feel that way. I'm going to somewhat take a break from communicating with her, checking how they are doing, etc. I care, of course, but I need a break. Before I learned of the incident I had told her I have had it with people not wearing masks. Honestly I wonder why she even told me.
My dad invited himself to come here in later July and said he would be spending the night at least one night with me, etc. I told him point blank that that was not going to work for me, and that I was not having any guests over inside the house or overnight. I haven't heard back. I'm sure he's offended I have a boundary.
kudos to you, phoebes, for putting that boundary out there. our safety must come first! :thumbup:
i'm sorry if he's offended, but that's his stuff, not yours. :no:
this mess is so difficult on its own - when others mess with our safety, it's a whole 'nother ballgame! love and hugs, my dear :hug:
Way to go Phoebes, that's some serious boundary setting! :thumbup: :applause:
:yeahthat: :cheer: :cheer: :cheer:
I have seen a few friends struggle with the stress of COVID. One older friend in Texas possibly has it now.
It is too much for some people to cope with, and the distress leads them into all sorts of paranoid beliefs.
I pity any human being who lacks the humility to take reasonable precautions.
Thanks! It helps to hear you all say that. He responded and sent a video of a WHO doctor saying how people don't get it from asymptomatic people. I just said, well, apparently there are a lot of people who don't know if they have symptoms or if those around them have symptoms!
It makes sense there are all levels of denial and misinformation out there. I'm just thinking until we know for sure, and there are treatment or prevention options, why just throw all caution to the wind? I do feel good about my cautiousness and boundaries about it. My dad is 77 and I wonder why he is so anxious to write it off as hoax.
Quote from: Phoebes on July 08, 2020, 08:00:57 PM
It makes sense there are all levels of denial and misinformation out there.
We live in a complicated world. The levels of misinformation are so extreme and can now be recognised as new forms of mistreatment of our minds.
In my experience, the deniers seem incapable of being content with their own beliefs; they have to force it on other people...and that's where I draw the line
Slim
That's it exactly Slim, when other POV threaten our health and well-being as is happening in the pandemic, we must draw the line. If it were just going to affect those who deny COVID protection measures that would be fine, but it affects all of us and it's clear individual rights do not trump the greater good.
Reason seems to have fled a swath of people and in their case the law must step in IMO. Mandatory masks or fines, etc. Same as seatbelts, no smoking, and many other laws we all live with daily.
Yell all you want just put a mask on and physical distance. Oh and wash your hands ;D
It's been a while. Now Ns who did wind up getting covid, has the long-haul effects, and is running amok as if there is no pandemic, with the kids. I feel like as long as they are doing that I can't see them, because they don't do social distancing.
I don't understand why someone who is afraid of their own shadow rolled their eyes at wearing a mask and now are nonchalant, even having over two months of symptoms. And wonder why I don't come to see them. I just really don't get it.
I sincerely hope now that Biden has won he will push the idea that masks really do save lives and coord with states to help bring rates down in the US Phoebes.
Even so, when masks are "required" there seem to always be encounters with people who are either not wearing masks, getting too close, disregarding the rule, or even just talking about it like it's stupid.
For instance, taking my dog to a remote hiking trail. Rarely encountering another soul, yet sure enough, there's always a group I pass closely on the trail, I put on my mask, and they don't, and talk loudly or huff and puff as they pass me. So I DEFinitely breathed in their breath, in the middle of nowhere.
Now my childhood best friend, who told me she didn't care if she got it when refusing to wear a mask around me, has it for the second time (in two different countries) from traveling, and expects me to feel bad for her. One, I don't want to lose my best friend or for her to be sick, but two, she didn't care if I caught it or if she's spreading it. Is she really my best friend? See, this is the reason I started this post in the first place. It's hard to love and respect the people we love and respect when they could care less about this issue.
QuoteOne, I don't want to lose my best friend or for her to be sick, but two, she didn't care if I caught it or if she's spreading it. Is she really my best friend?
Your question is a good one Phoebes. It may be that you will have to take a friend break until rates come down/a vaccine is in place. Sadly we have to make difficult choices when someone isn't respecting our boundaries/wants/needs and that of others. In the case of your relationship, if she is a good friend she will accept you cannot see her unless she wears a mask.
This is a deadly virus for some people, that is simply a fact that cannot and should not be ignored. When it is I think it speaks volumes about the character of those who do and raises the question you touched on - "
Are they people we want to be friends with? "
Phoebes, I'm so sorry there are people close to you (physically or emotionally) behaving like this :hug: I get annoyed too about people who don't bother to put their mask on until they are actually in the store. So if I'm on my way out I come face to face with someone coming in without a mask and there isn't always space to maneuvre around them. I do sometimes say something, depending on my mood and energy levels.
Quote from: Kizzie on November 11, 2020, 04:23:35 PM
In the case of your relationship, if she is a good friend she will accept you cannot see her unless she wears a mask.
:yeahthat: But for myself I find that easier to say than believe or easier than to put into practice
Quote from: Kizzie on November 11, 2020, 04:23:35 PM
This is a deadly virus for some people, that is simply a fact that cannot and should not be ignored.
To add to the fatalities, even if you're not one of them you could well get a lot of long-term health problems. In my country (not the USA), the statistics count those who have recovered from Covid but that does not mean that these people don't still have massive health problems that could become a long-term problem, e.g. reduced lung capacity or fatigue. Nobody knows in advance whether they're going to have these problems or not.
I really have enough problems due to cptsd, e.g. exhaustion (!), without adding any extra! In fact having had a lot of physical problems in the past due to cptsd (meaning the problems couldn't 'just be got rid of') might mean that I have more idea than some of the deniers about the effect of unknown/uncurable/unexpected health problems on day-to-day life.