I came across that word in several texts on CPTSD recovery. Apparently, we have to become self-referencing in order to heal. I didn't pay much attention to that at the time. It seemed like just another abstract concept.
It's starting to dawn upon me now, though. And I'm pretty excited by it. Because once I know what the problem is - and that it's not any character failing of mine, nor simply the way this world works for everyone - then it follows logically that it can be changed. It can be slowly nudged towards a more bearable state of affairs, or given a good kick, whatever, but it can and will be shifted. This feels like I've lived all my life in a house that had a piano stuck in the hallway, and everyone had to crawl around it, and everyone thought it couldn't be moved, but now, huzzah, a solution is within reach.
Which might just be the usual enthusiasm one gets before falling flat on one's face. Who knows. But the concept is interesting. So I thought maybe we could talk about it? Just in general, sharing our stories. Because I still think that the word is too abstract to be easily understood. So sharing our experiences might clarify the matter. I'm still groping about in the dark too.
So! Here's what I found out. Since I'm nervous about writing this, it'll be brief, because I want to rush through this before I lose my nerve.
Possible causes: narcissistic family systems => the entire family is focussed on the needs of the parents => the child grows up having the parents' needs as her focal point. Her own needs are sidelined, maybe even seen as mere obstacles for parental needs. Abuse undermines your sense of self, your sense of self-worth. It undermines your ability to trust in your own voice - after all, you constantly experience yourself as weaker than others. Some kinds of abuse purposely try to make you other-referencing:
-- name-calling and labelling (the abuser sends us the underlying message: "what I think about you is true")
-- trivializing and minimizing ("how I assess your situation is correct")
-- giving "advice", asking probing questions, analyzing, offering solutions ("there's no need for me to listen to your side of the story", "I know best", "I solve your problem")
-- invalidating, gaslighting ("I know what happened, I decide what's real")
-- withholding, withdrawing, stonewalling => a form of exerting passive-aggressive control: an attempt to switch us off
-- countering: ("my point of view is the only acceptable one, so align yourself with me")
-- minimizing: ("I know how your experiences have truly affected you")
-- trivializing: directly devalues and belittles our contributions, our perceptions, our experiences, and our normal human dignity
Effects:
-- you constantly second-guess yourself - "was it really so", "maybe I'm just being oversensitive", etc
-- difficulty making decisions
-- it's VERY hard to accept criticism, because we've been taught to connect our sense of self-worth directly to other people's reactions to us - so if a neighbour or the kid next door looks at us funny, we're sunk
-- for that reason, we become people-pleasers
-- we think in terms of "should" and "ought to"
Phew! I'm done. Was this okay? This is what I remember from the books I'm reading. So it's not a complete list, and it's not official, it's just "things Cat had buzzing about at the back of her head".
No clear idea yet how to fix things. So far, I'm trying to become aware of what caused this. That helps me realize that these are just introjects - things someone else wanted me to believe. And that makes it easier to show them the proverbial middle finger. I'm trying to see when and in what ways I'm other-referencing, and to see how I could do things differently. Even just finding out what I'm feeling is a bit of a task.
It's easier to do silly little things. Like a self-referencing to-do list. Just writing down "laundry, shopping, mop floors" feels like yet another list of OUGHTs. I can almost see my mother's admonishing look and her raised index finger. So instead, I wrote down "Cat wants a clean house" and "it's inconsiderate not to do laundry" and "Cat REALLY needs to buy coffee". Aaaand... I actually got a few more things done than I would have with ordinary lists. Knowing myself, I'll probably forget about that bright and shiny idea soon enough, but it was a funny experience.
So how about you? What are your experiences with being self-referencing? Or with NOT being it? What are the areas this affects? Do you have any strategies, any favourite method, any one experience that felt particularly liberating?
This is brilliant, Cat!
Thank you so very much!!!! I needed this.
Perfect!!
Great! Love it. Thanks.
Thanks, both of you. :hug: I was so nervous about writing this.
I didn't realize it before reading your post but I have actually started to do this, I just didn't have a name for it - tks Cat! :applause: It does make things easier when I can name something. to "Oh look at that, I am self-referencing" or "Whoops, I am other-referencing again."
My H and I were just talking about what the constant intrusion of NPD FOO into our life does to us (me in particular) how it forces us into the position of what I now understand is "other-referencing" so you can never quite relax or be alone in /with yourself. I don't know if the last part makes sense but that's kind of how it feels, like I always have someone else in my psychic space I have to be concerned about. In a PD FOO you have to be other referenced to survive and then it becomes a habit around other people in general.
Wow, had a big aha or connect the dots moment just now. Part of the reason I don't like to let other people in is because they take up too much space, I feel pulled out of myself because I have to be other-referenced. I get it now - I am not unsociable or narcissistic as I feared, I just don't know how to self-reference around other people. I lose myself when I am around other people not because there is no real me, but because I have been trained to submerge myself in favour of others. Holy cow, this explains so much :stars:
Tks for gathering the courage to write about this Cat :hug:
Oooh wow, yes, that ah-ha moment of yours explains a lot for me, too. That's precisely what it feels like: as if others are taking up too much available space, crowding me out. And so I have to leave those situations and be by myself to get some breathing space and feel less squished. That's it. Happy dance! Maybe now I've got one tiny little tool more in my attempt to become less hermit-like. Self-referencing when around others. I'll have to see how one does that. Thanks, Kizzie. :hug:
It's such a huge piec of the puzzle that is my CPTSD Cat, I can't thank you enough. :hug:
I really want to learn how to be in the same space as other people and not be crowded out, to feel I have to leave to find myself, be myself. I am starting to do it but it will be so much easier now that I know what exactly I am trying to do (and not do).
Yes indeed, happy dance time! :party:
This is a wonderful discussion, Cat. I did not know the term "self-referencing". I think this is what I have been thinking of as "people-pleasing," a compulsive need driven by fear and shame to get approval from other people. And it forces me to spend a lot of time alone because otherwise I am not strong enough to be my own self in the presence of other people. :yes:
I have been having those same experiences with re-wording my to-do lists so that, hopefully, they become a list of things that would make me happy instead of a bunch of onerous obligations. ! :yes:
You know, I could never understand why my mother could be so judgmental of me and so very respecting of other people who didn't seem much different than me. But there was just no way for me to earn her respect. And that is why I am still so other-referencing.
It's really validating to see other people are dealing with this same issue. :hug:
Quote from: schrödinger's cat on March 06, 2015, 10:20:09 PM
That's precisely what it feels like: as if others are taking up too much available space, crowding me out.
This would explain why it feels so great to have some alone time. Even thought they are not really asking me to do things, I other-reference if they are here. It is the only relief from other-referencing in my head instead of self-referencing. Thanks!
QuoteDo you have any strategies, any favourite method, any one experience that felt particularly liberating?
So I've been thinking about this thread for a couple days now and bouncing off your idea of self referencing the to do list what I've come up with is to ask myself the following questions:
- what do I want? (as in the case of your to do list example or when making decisions)
- what is my goal?
- how do I feel?
- what do I believe? (About myself, others, places, things)
- is this my own voice? (And not someone else's in my head, just to verify)
- what do I think? (Asked as if I'm my own best friend, trying to be objective)
Excellent list. If it weren't potentially embarassing in case a visitor sees it, I'd print that out and stick it to my refrigera---- ah hah, now I know: I'll translate this into Russian and stick it to my refrigerator, because no one we see regularly speaks that language. The unexpected upsides of being a translator.
I especially like the point about whose voice this is. So thanks for doing all that work. :waveline: :yourock:
Next project is for me to rewrite my to do list Cat style. :) I love the idea of making it goal oriented around my wishes. It elevates things above just a plain task list.
I can hear myself growing. Thanks for the shares!! :yes: A couple of thoughts.... For this bright and shiny idea. Around other people, especially if they are overwhelming me, I imagine an impenetrable bubble around myself. Their words bounce off the bubble and ricochet into space. That's not with bigger groups though. I avoid those or ground myself. Also, about the list on your fridge... May I pose this- is it embarrassing, considering non-cptsd folks do that naturally? :bigwink: To most, isn't it a lovely reminder of how people operate? (May be my bias here, you know your experience).
Cat, that is an awesome post. I think I've been starting to work on this, too. So many good things in your post.
Quote from: Kizzie on March 06, 2015, 08:20:13 PM
Wow, had a big aha or connect the dots moment just now. Part of the reason I don't like to let other people in is because they take up too much space, I feel pulled out of myself because I have to be other-referenced. I get it now - I am not unsociable or narcissistic as I feared, I just don't know how to self-reference around other people. I lose myself when I am around other people not because there is no real me, but because I have been trained to submerge myself in favour of others. Holy cow, this explains so much :stars:
Kizzie, that is brilliant. It explains a lot about me, too. I like being around people, but they can pull so much out of me. I really really don't self reference around others.
Great thread - thank you SC :applause:
Inner-child work helped me learn to be a strong self-referencer/ inner-child referencer. She's my number one priority and she has been empowered by me to speak up loud and clear about her feelings, needs and wants. I'm a fierce defender of her; if anyone disrespects her I stop them in their tracks. I'm her momma bear.
I'm also her cheerleader, mirror and friend.
Inner-child work rocks!
That sounds VERY interesting. How did you do it?
I used Bradshaw's "Homecoming" as my guide. I did all the exercises to the hilt and talked with my Inner-child everyday for years. So worth it ;D
Ordered it. Thanks for the recommendation!
Great! Let me know how it goes :hug:
This is an incredible post. I am sure I will reread it many times. Will I be able to move my own personal piano out of the hallway?
My parents were intense and overwhelming. "You WILL do things our way." My emotional survival depended on accepting their view whether it was right (as it sometimes was) or not.
And it's true, I fall apart at the slightest criticism, because I have based my self-worth on what other people think of me. And it's true that I think in terms of "should" and "ought to." I LOVE the idea of cleaning my house because it would be pleasant for me to live in a clean house. Also, exercising because it's pleasant to use my muscles, and eating right because it's pleasant to feel good about food. And if I do want to curl up in the fetal position under a blanket with a bowl of ice cream, well, that's fine, too. I'm not responsible for what other people think of that.
I got married largely because I wanted to have sex, and my parents had told me not to have sex outside of marriage. All these years later, I wonder about living alone. But, I do love my husband--a lot--so I think it would be better to think about it like, I work and make a home to please my husband not because my self-worth depends on it, but because I love him and it makes me happy to see him happy. This makes a big difference!
This is an incredible thread. I can relate to all of it. I was wondering about a definition of self-referencing, though, and could not find it in the CPTSD glossary on this board. Can someone define it for me? I like definitions. lol.
P.S. I was referred to this specific thread by someone on the OOTF board (the sister board to this one.) I'm glad I was!
;D
Quote from: Rrecovery on March 29, 2015, 08:09:03 PM
I used Bradshaw's "Homecoming" as my guide. I did all the exercises to the hilt and talked with my Inner-child everyday for years. So worth it ;D
I just ordered this book. Thank you
Thank you, Cat. This is what I was hoping for in joining. Self referencing - yes! I have been studying for two and a half years but have not come across this in this exact form. The first book I read was Waking the Tiger. It was given to both my ex-husband and I by our counselor. I read it, he probably didn't...but he hid it from me so I bought my own copy.
Now when I make my to do lists, I too will write into them the self affirmations that you describe.
M wants to take H to the eye doctor.
M wants her cats to have their supplements.
...M wants to go swimming!
I threw in that last one because when I make the list your way, it becomes easier to see how much I am still living for others needs and how much or little I am giving myself.
Thank you again. I will be having a much better day because of this.
M
ps Thank you all for the little icons. I feel like starting every post with this :stars:, and ending every post with this :wave:. I hope they come through.
What a wonderful thread! Thanks so much.
For me, I grew up with not abusive parents, but oblivious ones. I don't think it really occurred to them that anything other than feeding and dressing me was necessary to parent. No one ever spoke about what I would do once I grew up, where I would apply for college (even with my excellent grades), or how to deal with the usual social conflicts and politics of children and teens. I remember often feeling like I was just floating around in the world. I wasn't permitted to have needs or worries. I remember as a very young child realizing that it was bad to cry in front of my mother, because it only annoyed her. Most of my childhood I spent alone, as I was the youngest and my siblings left as soon as they could.
So, I learned pretty quick that pleasing people, agreeing with them, finding some common interest or opinion was how to be connected to them. I can be a real pro at this. In fact, I don't even have to think about it; I just enter a room and start reading people and aligning myself.
I loved your thread -- and I really mean that -- because it helped me understand how I got this way. The piano in the hallway is such a spot on metaphor for how I feel much of the time. What do I feel? Think? Want? Those feel like my to do list items.
But, no one actually gets to know me! And that includes myself. Now, I activel try to NOT do this.
Is self-referencing simply referring to yourself in the third person? ??? :doh:
A huge thank you, CAT...
Your post represents a big reason I joined here...to find others who've been on the trail and who choose to communicate their discoveries on our common yet individualized journeys as we search for ways around that "piano in the hallway" blocking our steps to the door and into the sunshine.
My own steps feel a little lighter, at long last, for having been here. Thanks again.
Hi Far - self-referencing refers to thinking about what you need/feel/think/want ..... instead of others. Many of us with CPTSD have had to focus on others, meeting their needs, watching for danger .... so much so that we aren't in tune with ourselves and need to start to begin to consider ourselves in order to recover.
Hope this helps.
Quote from: Kizzie on May 28, 2015, 05:04:48 AM
Hi Far - self-referencing refers to thinking about what you need/feel/think/want ..... instead of others. Many of us with CPTSD have had to focus on others, meeting their needs, watching for danger .... so much so that we aren't in tune with ourselves and need to start to begin to consider ourselves in order to recover.
Hope this helps.
Yes this helps. Interestingly, this is something I've already been doing for thirty years, ever since attending ACOA groups. My problem is that once I got married, I didn't know how to become more group-minded. I'm always thinking what I need first -- I feel as though I can never make up enough for being other-minded as a kid.
So now after 24 years of marriage, this old dog is still learning new tricks. Now I'm trying to figure out how to be self-referencing and also couple-minded. I guess the path never ends...lol
What an awesome thread. This helped me make a huge next step in healing from chronic depersonalization!
I read this thread Friday morning and Friday night I fell asleep reading CPTSD:FSTT. Saturday morning I woke up AS USUAL from a nightmare AS USUAL in a wicked EF. Immediately I used self-compassion and told myself it was an EF and some other things from the book and it went away, before I got out of bed!
Here's the really cool part. The term self referencing came to mind. As I lay there and thought about the world around me, when I was starting to drift back into EF, I psychologically brought my mind back to myself. Every time thinking about self-referencing. I've never done this but it MADE SO MUCH SENSE!
In chronic DP/DR (depersonalization/derealization disorder) we see the world sort of as a movie, in 2D, as if we are bystanders not in our own body. I have progressed where I am not depersonalized any more, from a PHYSICAL and SENSES standpoint, but adding this self-referencing aspect is sort of like PSYCHOLOGICALLY re-personalizing!
For the first time, I myself, body and MIND AND SPIRIT, were part of the movie. My eyes are in the center of the action. *I* am the center of the action. My being is the the center of my world (not everyone else, like you listed in the causes). This has been truly HUGE for me, I thank you for this post and I will be rereading it a lot.
As I was cleaning house yesterday on the radio came Grateful Dead "Eyes of the World". I've heard it a million times but the chorus especially took on new meaning.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world,
the heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own.
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the mornin' brings,
But the heart has its seasons, its evenin's and songs of its own.
Sometimes we live no particular way but our own,
And sometimes we visit your country and live in your home,
sometimes we ride on your horses, sometimes we walk alone,
sometimes the songs that we hear are just songs of our own.
Thanks for the epiphany! :cheer: :yourock: :cheer:
Quote from: PaintedBlack on June 02, 2015, 01:56:26 PM
For the first time, I myself, body and MIND AND SPIRIT, were part of the movie. My eyes are in the center of the action. *I* am the center of the action. My being is the the center of my world (not everyone else, like you listed in the causes). This has been truly HUGE for me, I thank you for this post and I will be rereading it a lot.
Thank you so much for sharing! Yay! Beautiful. Another victory; another one of us has landed in the center of their own being :hug:
I just read your post PaintedBlack - so glad you had that experience and shared it with us - tks! :hug: Self-referencing is such a powerful concept in my recovery too.
I've since been able to share it with my therapist. He's so thrilled. He was wide eyed with hand over his mouth as I was explaining how people are supposed to view everything with themselves in mind first, then others, and that I never did that. For most people this self-referencing thing is a given and there's no way to conceptualize that other people wouldn't do the same thing.
One of the big problems with therapy has been that I don't have the words, knowledge, thoughts to describe what's wrong with me until I happen upon the correction, experience it, then tell him about it. This was one of those times. I think sometimes he feels very inadequate. I explained how Pete Walker talks about therapy being the first trust relationship we get (hopefully). And just being the type of person that didn't put me in a box, was my friend and advocate, was golden to me. Then my husband came round, so now I have two people who sort of "get it."
That's why this forum is so very important. I am really thankful for it and for y'all that run it. I've never found anything like it. It's a very special place and I hope it continues forever.
For most people this self-referencing thing is a given and there's no way to conceptualize that other people wouldn't do the same thing.
Exactly! And we wouldn't think of it because we don't know about it.
I love that your T does not pretend that he knows everything, that he lets you see that and also that you are teaching him. Being authentic and human is so key for us and his honesty means he is trustworthy or at least that's how I reacted to your description of your session PB.
It is awesome that we finally have people who "get it" isn't it?! Best feeling in the world after being alone for so long and not having the language to tell anyone what we feel/experience. Yay!
Yes, I thank God for my therapist every day. One thing he has shown me is how good, imperfect people interact and get through life. My mother instilled that everyone must be perfect or they are fatally flawed. The only way for her to accept a person is to trick her own mind into blacking out the flaws (idealization). it is taking me decades of being around normal people to undo the thinking that was instilled in me. Even now when I see it, it amazes me... But its thrilling to me and makes me happy that things are not really the way my mother sees them. It also breaks my heart to imagine what it's like to ACTUALLY BE HER. what a horrifying thought.
It also breaks my heart to imagine what it's like to ACTUALLY BE HER. what a horrifying thought.
So true! I would not what to be any of my PD FOO - there's just no authenticity, no real or genuine anything in their lives. The one good thing (for them) is that I don't think they realize it because their disorder protects them from that knowledge. Now it pmo that they sleep well at night while I gnash and thrash, but I'll take the pain if that's what it takes to be real tks very much.
I realized a year or two ago I had this absolute sense of dread that if my parents knew they were broken they would shatter into a million pieces. My IC was terrified of that because then I would lose what little I did have of them. And I also realized I felt responsible for keeping that knowledge from them, not knowing then as I do now that they were safe and protected by their PD.
Hey Beautiful People,
My first post here. What a great thread! So good it made me register to add to the discussion :)
The way I think of 'Self Referencing' in my own healing is in terms of Boundaries.
Before I dove into all this CPTSD / FOO work, boundaries was an idea that I found kind of unattractive, a little vague, and I didn't fully 'get it'. Suprise, suprise!-- boy oh boy did I need to learn ;) Boundary work has since become a major piece of learning for me in my healing process, and a major tool in my managing EF's and all that comes with it.
I first learned more about boundaries from Spartan Life Coach, who made a Free mini course on it here: http://buildbetterboundaries.com/
And then, I've been learning a lot more about them from my reading of John Bradshaw (Homecoming especially) & Pia Mellody's work as well. So helpful to understand boundaries better. It helps immensely with not getting 'stuck' in other people's feelings, reactions, or ways of being, and I find I'm relating to my own inner world with much more self control as well.
Basically, Boundaries are protective layers. They are our way of defending ourselves, and of protecting others from our unhealthy expressions & actions (i.e., our Outer Critic nonsense)
There are Inner Boundaries--
having awareness of lines to cross in terms of what feelings we act on, what impulses we should honor, what we should (and should not) say or do in a given situation. Knowing how to say 'I feel / think / etc' vs 'you should...'. If we are speaking judiciously, we are using internal boundaries. If we successfully manage NOT to eat ice-cream sandwiches for lunch, we have asserted our internal boundaries :applause:
and Outer Boundaries--
Knowing when someone is crossing our sense of how we want to be treated, or relating to us in any way that is inappropriate, and expressing that line. Saying things like "Hey, I'm uncomfortable with that", "hey, I'm my own person, please don't tell me how to feel", etc. Often, our boundaries are being crossed when the other person is not following their own sense of inner boundaries. I find that whenever the person is focused on what I feel, or 'should' do, say, etc..., they are really crossing a boundary. By doing so, they are ignoring how they feel, and putting it on me. We are our own people. We are not here for the sole purpose of pleasing others! If someone feels unhappy with something about me-- assuming I'm acting in a healthy & boundaried way-- then that's their stuff to work out.
For me, it's been invaluable to see that I don't have to manage the feelings & states of other people. That's actually me crossing their boundary to do so. I still have to remind myself all the time. And likewise, others aren't responsible for managing my state either.
So I guess I'm sharing all this as a long winded way of saying that I found If I'm getting hung up on validation, what other people think, feel or project on me means that there is probably a lack of boundaries on my part somewhere. When I have a clear sense of that boundary of "them" over there & "me" over here, it becomes much easier to allow them to have whatever feelings they are having because those feelings belong to them. If I'm trying to manage their state by people-pleasing, or reacting inappropriately, then what is actually happening is that I'm feeling their emotions as my own, because I have not made a clear boundary of who I am and who they are. And this is often what People pleasers do. Self referencing is IMO learning how to have boundaries and check in *here, with me* first.
Shame dynamics work on violated boundaries. According to John Bradshaw, Shame (or 'Toxic Shame' as he calls it) is really the projection of that person's unhealed wounds onto US. This means that the person projecting shame on us is 'shameless' in their expression, and by necessity, not holding good boundaries internally OR honoring our boundaries either. Obviously, for people with CPTSD, we have experienced a lot of this, usually by our primary caretakers. What we learned to do from all this was abandon our own Needs & Values so that we could align with theirs. Discovering this was SO key for me. John says to "Give It Back"-- Any shame that is not yours must be given back and NOT accepted. How do you know whose shame it is? According to Bradshaw & Mellody its Simple: If it feels more like humility as you are aware of your own shortcomings, and instead of upsetting you, you are at peace with it, then it's YOURS. Your own authentic shame feels like humility. It shouldn't cause you to have a EF attack. If you feel terrible about yourself, are in emotional agony, and it makes you want to act out or hide, then it's THEIRS and must be sent back to them!
So we come from backgrounds where there were little to no boundaries, and where this was modeled for us as 'normal' adult behavior. I think a lot of us grow up with this muddy, mushy sense of self and other, and we end up feeling other people's feelings too often or too easily. We abandon expressing our needs, our wants, and our preferences. We get lost in the trance of the other. It's probably some evolutionarily useful tribal instinct to be so aware of the group-- gone awry in our modern small-unit family structures. But whatever the cause, we feel this undefined sense of self-- including all the feelings from our wounds, all the buried belief systems, all the stuff that actually belongs to others-- and we just feel it, without any clear definition of what we are feeling inside, or any clear definition of what is actually happening outside. Sorry if this description is triggering. I'm aiming to describe clearly here.
What I've come to see is that what underpins all of these dynamics-- and I think all the resulting PD's and dysfunction that comes out of CPTSD-- is Codependency in some form. They say that we become codependent when we are not allowed to fully be ourselves as children. That codependency is a default part of a child's reality, but we get wounded and stuck there, and never learn to individuate completely. For me this has been so true. And so, 'Self Referencing' is a wonderful way to begin exploring personal boundaries by exercising personal awareness. We begin to know what we want, what our stuff is and what belongs to the other, we can navigate with more clarity. We can begin experimenting with making requests, asserting ourselves, being more clear with people about their stuff, and what I've found is this great amount of peace and spaciousness inside myself as I do this. Sometimes it's scary, but my inner child always adores me for asserting my boundaries. And it's helped me to parent myself better by knowing when to do what. I'm a freeze type, and any distraction can be an alluring temptation at the wrong time.
So yeah, that's my journey with Self Referencing. Thanks, Cat for the great topic. Sorry for the epic length first post :blahblahblah: Hopefully it's not triggering, and hopefully helpful as we share all our learnings together
Brilliant post! I wish I had read it earlier in my life as I used to do this. I would never voice my opinion or make a decision without hearing others' thoughts first. Despite my uNMIL being very abusive, it was actually my FIL who first made me realise I did this. That whenever he asked what I wanted/thought, I would always refuse to answer and go along with what other people wanted. As if everyone else was far more important than I could ever be. It was then that I took steps into researching why I did this and attempting to remedy it. I still struggle with worrying what people think about me and how I'm perceived, but I've definitely made progress in terms of being honest with what I want and not being afraid to voice that.
SweetFreedom, welcome to the board! I also learnt about this as `boundaries' rather than self-referencing. I read a few books about co-dependency and how women are taught to be docile and flexible, which only encourages this sans-boundary existence where you're so busy running around trying to please everyone else, you don't even know your own thoughts or feelings!
QuoteWe are our own people. We are not here for the sole purpose of pleasing others! If someone feels unhappy with something about me-- assuming I'm acting in a healthy & boundaried way-- then that's their stuff to work out.
I have to keep repeating this to myself in some situations! Especially when I encounter people who seem to have made it their life's mission to be upset with everything I am and to try to change me into someone else.
Thanks for the warm welcome, Sesame!
Yeah, I agree that there's definitely a socialized gender-role component to all this. Women definitely get taught to people-please and to have weaker boundaries. And men get taught to have overly-defined boundaries. Seems like this is why the classic Codependent-Narcissist dynamic skews Female and Male, respectively.
i have struggled with this concept for quite a while, especially since i began getting sick (about 20 yrs. now), knowing that it was the continued stress i had been under that was causing me to become ill. my problem became not being able to explain what was going on with me and why in any articulate fashion.
i knew within me what had been happening, but anyone i attempted to explain it to just couldn't, wouldn't, or didn't understand. docs, therapists, friends, family - i couldn't get myself to be understood. i was self-referencing (although i didn't know the term at the time) but no one else knew my frame of reference, and my brain had been bullied by the machinations of the abusers in my life to the extent that i couldn't explain myself quickly or accurately enough. hours, sometimes days later, i would think of what i could have or wished i would have said. i feel like i've been in an ongoing battle to be me for over 30 yrs.
because this sense of self-referencing has come along late in my life (i really didn't have much of an inkling as to who i was until i was in my 50's), i also was victim to the idea of other-referencing, making myself look okay, sound okay, seem okay to others, and when i did that 'wrong' the shame and self-criticizing came into play. and i would feel horrible until someone would validate me again as still being a friend, still loving me, still wanting to hang out with me, or whatever.
the whole thing has been extremely frustrating. the narcs in my life were much better at expressing themselves than i, which made me feel stupid (and i know i'm not) or that my brain was becoming unraveled. still, i kept battling, trying to validate myself by doing so much online research into long-term chronic stress and things of that nature. hadn't really heard or known much about c-ptsd or npd and narc abuse, even tho i was in the middle of it all. and, of all the professions i've been in contact with (including my own - i'm a therapist for over 25 yrs.) no one has ever acknowledged the idea of chronic stress as a destructive force, or that such a thing as c-ptsd existed.
i was other-referencing all the time before my own awareness of something being very wrong with me because of chronic stress (that's the only way i knew it) kicked in. i'm just glad i lived long enough to name this beast, put this piece of the puzzle in place, and begin on a path (through the help of all of you and this forum) that finally makes sense and is understood. it's very validating to know i was right all along, even though very few people in my life to this day know what i'm talking about.
when i read in here about how people are finding their way through this jungle of horror and deceit, finding the courage to share what they've been through, how they think and feel, i am glad to have lived long enough to feel this and see this. it's all good.
Beautiful :)
Posts like yours, sanmagic7, give me so much inspiration. Keep going! You are doing the right thing to heal yourself. Thanks for your share!
My story is so similar to yours Sanmagic, you expressed that state of being lost in other referencing really well. I always felt like I would open my mouth and try to speak about my self and what was going on but it would get stuck in my throat and only a garbly mish mash would come out. A lot of recovery for me has been about finding and using my voice. Tks for your post :hug: