hey, everybody,
as some of you know, i'm engaged in this ongoing debate with other emdr practitioners. the subject has come up regarding c-ptsd and therapy, whether it's important during prep for therapy itself to have a stabilization component or not.
one of the clinicians has been citing research as saying stabilization for a c-ptsd client is not important, doesn't really help, and can therefore be "a waste of time and energy". personally, i think it's important as it begins the entire therapeutic relationship, helps build trust, and allows the client to feel safer as they go into the minefield of truama therapy.
in my mind, this does not only pertain to emdr-based therapy, but any trauma therapy. however, i would like to hear feedback from others as to whether they think time taken for stabilization is important, if it's helped them and how. if people report that it has been helpful, i'd like to take this info back to the emdr community and let them know that we can't always rely on research alone to guide us when working to help c-ptsd clients heal.
i'd appreciate any input you'd care to give, if only for the sake of being able to make ourselves heard to those clinicians out there who are supposed to be helping us thru this. thank you all.
OK this is slightly OT, but it interests me how varied the ideas on appropriate cptsd healing are by country. The mantra in this part of Europe is: stabilisation, stabilisation, stabilisation, have a peek at something, stabilisation, stabilisation, stabilisation, have another peek, stabilisation.... etc ad nauseam.
I have always learned stabilisation techniques in therapy before looking too deeply at anything, even before I was in official trauma-informed therapy. It's true, I don't always follow the techniques, but I learned and practised them in T. And when push came to shove, e.g. when I was so badly destabilised that SI came up as a seemingly spontaneous reflex, getting help - a form of restabilisation to get the SI out of my head again - was automatic because I'd practised it.
Another mantra here in trauma T is: "the slower you go, the faster you heal." Really. There are no typos in that sentence! Therapists take the time to stabilise their clients and good ones teach their clients to do so for themselves.
san, I think you know what country I'm in and for the purposes of your discussion with emdr practitioners, you're welcome to pass along my comments with country name. If not, pm me.
Some stabilization practice might be useful. But the very nature of any therapy is dealing with destabilized trauma survivors and the discomfort for sure will likely continue even as some progress may be noted.
It sounds like many therapists nudge clients to jump right into their pet practice right away, as they (the T's) may have seen it work well for others. Some, however, are pushed to do so by the insurance/government bureaucrats whose primary interest is tilted towards producing on-paper progress instead of the living dynamic of therapist/client. Quality of care can't always be easily quantified.
I've never heard of any therapy that creates overnight miracles, so being open to a range of what-ifs seems advisable. I've long held to the notion that therapy is more art form than science when it pertains to outcomes. No guarantees, and definitely pre-stabilization will not necessarily create predictable results.
At least that's my perspective based on having run the gamut of therapy 'styles', from those imprisoned by their self-absorbed beliefs to those who are belligerent and top-down in their approach, and to those who are just passing time or bored. My current T is about as ideal as I've had--open to different modes, respectful of the client, and not hung up on herself.
The other side of that is the unrealistic expectation that T's will or should be perfect, that they're supplying a cure, like waving a magic wand (would that it were possible!). It will require not just the cooperation of the client, but patience on both sides as the help-seeker is in the process of a long climb out of a desperate state of affairs.
Thanks, San.
In my experience stabilization is a huge step in this process. For me it gave me the chance to trust my current T, as well as to trust in my own ability to work through my Cptsd. The first T I had did no stabilization and I went into EF or visual flashbacks every time I left her office, it was truly unhealthy. We were digging with not sense of stability, she never helped to stabilize me and certainly didn't teach me. I think with the emotional disregulation a lot of us experience we need to know how to stabilize ourselves in a moment of panic, even if that is know when to reach out for help.
My current T spent about 5 sessions in get to know me and stabilization techniques. One of our treatment goals is that I knew and could effectively use ten different coping strategies that were healthy. It makes all the difference now to have those in my toolkit. We literally call it that as we were just building a set of tools to help me through emdr and the other healing methods we are doing. It gave us both a chance to get to know one another and find my own limits in healing.
I was in a similar situation as elphanigh. I had a therapist who didn't do any stabilization with me at all and I had the same reaction. I had panic attacks or EFs right after leaving the office. It was a mess! I got meds to sedate me instead of teaching me how to stabilize.
My current T first taught me stabilization techniques and they were very much needed. Stabilization takes practice and I think it's a really good idea to begin with it.
I belive that if you jump right into the deep end of the pool before you can swim - you'll drown. You wont magically figure out how to swim.
And I think it's the same in treating c-ptsd and ptsd. You don't force the patient to tell you their most vulnerable, shameful, scary, frightening moments of their lives without any trust in the T or in the fact that they will survive the encounter afterwards.
Many of us fight tooth and nail everyday to resist the impulse to do something stupid, we use every skill in the book to simply survive. Pushing the patient into the deepend without warning or before he/she is ready, I believe is a recipie for catastrophy. It'd be like playing with the patient's life.
And on a personal note, my T has spent 1.5 year with me (which is a long time here for gov. approved clinics) to just stabilize me. To stop certain kinds of SI and drastically reduce the rest (I'm almost over doing all of them :cheer: ), to reduce my paranoia to a liveable level, to reduce my hyperarousal. Because if I'm in a constant fight of being above or below the tolerance window there's no room for me to take use of the therapy given to me. It's not important, because as long as I'm above/below the tolerance window I'm still fighting for my life, to simply survive.
Don't ask someone who has just lost their home to fire or a natural catastrophe to buy a fridge. They have no use for it, they got no where to put it.
I think stabilisation is huge in the beginning of therapy, unfortunately time scales don't allow that to happen, in the uk you only get a set number of sessions with a therapist and it's all very rush rush rush, ok that box ticked now on to the next topic, ok I think you're ok now, I'll discharge you but you can reapply if you're still not ok,! Then on to another waiting list......
Cptsd people generally have a lot of trust issues and it took me 6 of my 12 sessions to want to say anything about what has happened to me then I'm supposed to get myself sorted in 6 weeks, it just wouldn't happen in the real world!
thank you all for your candor and willingness to share your thoughts, opinions, and experiences. when i post to the other clinicians, who are located throughout the world, i will be generic as to presenting what you've wrote. i completely respect all of you, and who and where you are will still be held in confidence (altho, blueberry, thank you for that permission).
i do believe this will be helpful in opening some eyes among the therapeutic community - every little bit and all that. i think it's a step in the right direction. unfortunately, the wheels of change turn slowly. like i mentioned, this was the first time in over 10 yrs. that the idea of c-ptsd has even been given credence.
thank you again. you deserve so much praise for your courage in letting your voice be heard. love and hugs to you all. i'll let you know if i get any feedback on this.
Hi San,
I wish I had some real wisdom to add to this post. Instead, I just have the personal experience of having been quite unstable and then making, what I consider to be, great progress. Perhaps Not everyone involved in my care would consider my progress as "good enough". I'm still waiting for therapy and feel like I've done so much hard work that it feels disparaging to still be waiting. I'm not sure what the long term effect of waiting for therapy are. Food for thought, maybe.
here's the latest that i've written to the emdr community. i've only gotten one response from a t who addresses stabilization and has her clients practice such techniques. others basically say they don't believe it's necessary, and that as the trauma is resolved (the destabilization comes from the trauma, nothing else) the need for stabilization techniques decreases.
Thanks, Liz,
What you are saying is exactly what I've been hearing. Practice has been very helpful to people while out in the world between sessions. Also, they've talked about how learning and practicing such stabilization techniques has helped them to trust their therapist more readily, believe that their therapist truly has their best interests at heart, and feels safer because it feels to them that the therapist understands the nature of C-PTSD.
Many of them, myself included, have been traumatized by therapists, adding another layer of trauma to what was already there. Besides, often these clients are still in the throes of being traumatized if they have ongoing relationships with their perpetrators, including family members, and re-traumatization is often an ongoing dynamic.
I remember reading here a short while ago about someone treating a teen-aged client for anxiety (i believe) but stated that there was no childhood trauma, only parents who neglected to validate the client's emotions as she was growing up. I know that many of us have been taught about big T and small t traumas, but i can't tell you the number of people I have encountered who's major trauma was, and often still is, emotional neglect. A big T trauma does not necessarily have to be violent to completely undermine the 'self' of people.
At any rate, most of these people have been seen by multiple therapists, and have been hurt over and over in the therapeutic relationships to the point where they've given up ever finding someone who will help them. They now rely on this online support forum for healing. The ones who have had therapists who have taken their time, listened to them instead of pushing their own agendas (ex: if you don't give up your anger at your parents, it means that you don't really want to heal. they were flawed and did the best they could), and continually showed these people that their own best interests come first have made the most progress in the shortest period of time.
It's a community close to my heart. Forgive me if i sound preachy. The stories I've heard about the hazards of therapy, including EMDR therapists, are very,very sad to me. Heartbreaking, even. I just wanted to let you all know that EMDR as well as other so-called trauma therapy is getting a very bad rap with C-PTSD survivors. Too much, too soon, too fast doesn't help them. Thank you all.
so, i've done what i could, i think. put the word out, and it will either be heard or not.
i appreciate all the feedback you've given me here. thank you for your willingness to share. you're all beautiful.
Thank you, San!
For speaking to therapists on behalf of those who can't, or who wont be listened to because they are "after all just patients".
Thank you for trying to open their eyes to a broader picture.
Thank you san let's hope they listen, what you wrote was as if speaking from my own mouth, I agree with everything you wrote. Well done.x
thank you sceal and eyessoblue. i'm glad to hear that in your opinions i'm representing this correctly.
i checked today, and am being questioned as to my use of the term being 'traumatized' by therapists, with the clinician asking if another term, such as being 'very upset' or some such would be more accurate, and would like details. i have a couple examples from my own experience, but if anyone else would like to weigh in on how they've actually been traumatized by therapists, it would be greatly appreciated.
same clinician to whom i responded above. no one else has responded to this. i'm getting tired. they don't want to believe, is what it feels like to me. makes me doubt myself, maybe i'm making too much out of this. too personal. i don't know.
thanks again for your help.
Hey San,
I had a therapist traumatize me on my first visit.
***Trigger warning... self harm ***
Years ago I had been self harming everyday. (Cutting) It was getting increasingly dangerous as I escalated in location and depth. My therapist traumatized me on my first appointment. On the very first appointment she asked to see the marks. I said no! She looked angry with me and said "well you will have to show me eventually"
Her disgust with me not showing her mirrored my disgust for doing it. The only effect of her threat was for me change the location so she wouldn't suspect. I was happy the last day I saw her and had never showed her the damage I had done.
End trigger warning***
This therapist was too aggressive on our first encounter and her lack of understanding actually made my problems worse.
Hope this helps San :hug:
San, I am so grateful you are taking the energy to try to explain this to people that might listen. I am lucky with my T now but my first therapist traumatized me, and I ended up really sick for months because of it.
I was in college and struggling so I finally went to the therapist the school has, she was my first one and I was terrified. At first things went okay, but she stopped paying attention or caring about my panic levels. She would have me tell her the details of my abusex even if it made me shake and feel uncomfortable. I recognize now she was not at all cognizant of me having a window of tolerance. So I left her office triggered and barely functioning every week.
Looking back forcing myself to retell my horrors before I was ready was really damaging to an already struggling college student. She madr things worse rather than better and it took me almost 3 years and a big breakdown for me to risk finding another therapist.
Hi San, :hug:
*Trigger warnings*
I'm not sure if this constitutes as traumatized but I've had therapist tell me they dont want to hear or talk about my SI, as it didn't matter. My self mutilation wasn't something several of them wanted to adress - I later found out that they thought that by talking to me about this behaviour would signal to me that it was okay and that I should just continue with it, they thought that it would increase the risk of harm if they helped me with it. Ironically, them ignoring the problem made me continue more and more frequently.
I've also had a therapist tell me that I will never be able to work in the health-'industry' in any capacity. He crushed a very fragile dream, and my GP who was with me in that meeting had to pick up the pieces for a long time afterwards. (I also proved him wrong, I've worked in various capacities within the health department in various roles).
I was misdiagnosed because my therapists never dared to ask me the difficult questions, I very much needed them to ask the difficult and unbelievable questions because I had no language to let them know it myself. I still don't - After so many years I still can't actually say the words out loud. They should have asked, they should have dared - it was their job. A Therapist NEED to be able to ask the questions when the patients can't things out loud - our body language will give them the answer if its relevant or not. For me it took them 12 years before someone managed to ask the question I most needed them to ask. - This has caused me alot of pain and trouble, being misdiagnosed is awful. You get reduced to a few words on the paper, you're no longer a person. Your thoughts, actions and fears is just a title. If you try to argue or tell them it's wrong, it doesn't fit, it's not right you get met with disbelief and "it's just the illness talking" and rolling with eyes.
I've had therapists laugh at me in a demeaning way, but I've also have them laugh at me in a caring way. The latter is always okay - because I realize that cPTSD comes with a bag of weird tricks and sometimes I say things or have a theory that is far out there and all they can do is laugh for me to understand that was a bit much. And that is okay. It's also okay to be told that I am wrong, or my thought-process isnt any good - as long as they tell me why, so I can understand and learn. Or take it to heart and see if I do agree with them.
*Trigger warning end*
If any of this is helpful for you to relay to them, then please do so. I can understand your frustration and tiredness that they are not listening to you.
You say you've told them you yourself has been traumatized - could it be that they now view you as a patient? I worry that I say this, because openness is the only way things can change.
And also, their lack of reply might not mean they aren't considering it, or aren't thinking/processing it all. Perhaps they could benefit from you giving them some reading materials?
There are some talk of destabilization of patients in The Body Keeps the Score, and I am certain there are research articles out there on this very topic as well that might be enlightening. Sometimes people just need to get the information multiple times and from various sources until they start believing. I think this is true both for people who has been traumatized and people who haven't.
Still, I'm grateful to you San, for the work you're doing. :hug: I understand that it's hard and it can feel like you're butting your head against a brick wall.
Thank you for writing the letter, san, and for speaking up for us in a place where it might hopefully make a difference.
As I said, the mantra in my country is: stabilisation, stabilisation, stabilisation, have a peek at something, stabilisation, stabilisation, stabilisation, have another peek, stabilisation.... But that doesn't mean all Ts follow it. So I'm one of those who've been very badly triggered to completely destabilised on a good number of occasions by various Ts who wouldn't / couldn't listen. They apparently think they need to break through a patient's resistance. Not helpful.
i'm reading what you all are saying, and i can't thank you enough. this is so helpful and i'm so grateful for you all and your support.
if anyone else cares to add anything, i'm not going to respond to the other forum until tomorrow. i'm going to find the definition of trauma and include that. my heart is racing, actually, at the thought of confronting them with this. the whole idea of believing that traumatization only comes from overt acts has to be changed.
thank you again from the bottom of my heart. i'll say it again, you all are beautiful. i'll write more later.
Hi SanMagic,
I admit I've not read the contents of this thread, so apologies if I am jumping in here, but I have read that you're looking for feedback about therapy - and I have just read a paragraph from Janina Fisher's book, which I think makes some excellent points about someone's experience - so from p 38 and 39 of Janina's book I'll write out the quote, incase any part of it would be helpful for you to share with your colleagues:
"Gillian developed a fear of therapy and therapists in her early teens: as the family's identified patient, she was sent to one therapist after another to be "fixed". None of them "got" what her behaviour was communicating about her mother's alcoholism or her brother's abuse and focused on strengthening her relationship with her family by getting her to be more compliant. "Not being understood", "not being heard", or "no one getting it" are all very powerful triggers for traumatized individuals. Without realizing it, the therapists' automatic assumption that this was a healthy but overly permissive family with a challenging child made them triggering stimuli and therefore dangerous. Isolated from her peers, the "best friend" of her fragile mother, dependent on her father's financial assistance, and triggered by the helping professionals, Gillian regarded therapy as a dangerous place she had to navigate rather than as a source of help and safety. Had she known that her fear was a communication from a young child part that longed for help but was triggered by the failure of former therapists to "believe her", Gillian would have been able to make a connection between the past and the present. She might even have felt protective of this little girl and tried to stand up for "her". She might have been able to reassure the child that, even if no one else did, Gillian believed her unquestionably. Gillian knew what had happened. She might even have been able to tell the little girl that not being understood or believed was hurtful but it wasn't dangerous - as long as she was in Gillian's care."
SanMagic, I don't know if that paragraph is relevant to the points you want to make to your colleagues, but I thought I'd write it - just incase.
Good luck with your meeting - hoping you get somewhere, and thanks for doing all you do.
Hope :)
Thank you very much Sanmagic for all that you do and for opening up this opportunity to comment.
I still find it difficult to talk about what happened when I was retraumatised in therapy but have tried to summarise it as follows: My therapist created a new situation, a new reality, then blamed me for it when I became panicky and couldn't cope with therapy. In some twisted logic she then suggested I forgive myself for the situation which she had induced.
Being the daughter of a narc mother it was a repeat of the situation I had grown up with, and sadly very familiar to me which is why I tolerated it for so long even though I became highly anxious and suffered nightmares etc. All of which she blamed on my resistance and unwillingness to work with her. I can't believe it now in the cold light of day but she actually told me to put my hand up if I wanted to speak, like a child in the classroom.
Hi again SanMagic,
I am reading Janina's book today, and another paragraph seems relevant to what you may be discussing with your colleagues - so I'm just going to write it here: It's from p.44:
"But for clients with chronic, multi-layered trauma histories and severe dissociative symptoms, dysregulated unsafe behaviour, or chronic stuckness, the goal of stabilization can be elusive. Years of treatment focused on self-regulation and avoidance of traumatic content sometimes leads only to small steps forward - or bigger steps forward followed by a setback after setback. For fear of exacerbating the dysregulation, the therapist might inadvertently collude with the client's tendencies to ignore the trauma; or fearing empathic failure, the therapist might make the opposite mistake: allowing clients to say too much and, then having triggered themselves, become overwhelmed or unsafe. Often, the therapist comes to feel equally overwhelmed by the conflicting challenges of helping the client stabilize while also feeling heard and validated and to resolve the past."
SanMagic - I don't know if you find that helpful, but I thought I'd put it out there, just incase.
Hope :)
Hi SanMagic,
Just found another section that looks relevant:
p.46 and 47
"Influenced by widespread belief in the "talking cure", the pioneers in the trauma field initially assumed that creation of a narrative and being able to "tell the story" to a witness were sufficient to process "what happened" and resolve the symptoms (Rothschild, in press). A corollary assumption was that the worst effects on the individual would be dictated by the worst aspects or details of the trauma. Therefore, one might think it important to process those "worst" memories.
These assumptions leave therapists trained to use the phase-oriented treatment model in a quandary: while it does not feel empathically attunded to ask clients to avoid telling their stories, the prioritizing of stabilization requires focusing away from traumatic events. On the other hand, meeting the client's "need to get it out" is also risky. The former risks empathic failure; the latter risks destabilization. What does the therapist do when caught between "a rock and a hard place?"."
SanMagic - good luck with your talk today - hope it goes well.
Hope :)
This is my last addition here, as I feel I'm going 'over the top' - and probably saying things you already know, but this is a really helpful paragraph from p.48
"A Different Approach to Traumatic Memory"
and says this:
"In today's trauma treatment world, therapist and client have many more choices when it comes to treating traumatic memory. We can choose what kind of memory to treat: implicit or explicit memory? Memories of dehumanizing events or memories of ingenious survival? Memories as held by parts? Cognitive schemas? Incomplete actions? Or procedural memories of habitual actions and reactions? We can touch on memory by acknowledging it, naming it as a part's memory or as an implicit feeling or body memory. The therapist can help the client observe how it continues to exert its effects through pathogenic kernels that may or may not have any obvious connection to narrative. What is different is that the therapist no longer has to be focused preferentially on becoming a witness to the client's narrative regardless of its effects on his or her symptoms and stability. Instead, the trauma therapist's job is to create in the therapy hour a neurobiologically regulating environment that enables the client's nervous system to experience greater safety and therefore an expanded capacity for tolerating both past and present experiences (Ogden et. al., 2006)"
From Janina Fisher's book "Healing the Fragmented Selves of Trauma Survivors"
That's my final reply here today - as I am going to put the book down now, and step away. :) I just wanted to include that, as it seems very hopeful and a good model - and relevant to the 'importance of stabilization' within therapy.
Hope :)
Hope; I really enjoy reading the snippets that you give us from this book, it all makes total sense to me. I must purchase this book. Thank you for sharing.
Quote from: sanmagic7 on June 01, 2018, 01:42:30 PM
i checked today, and am being questioned as to my use of the term being 'traumatized' by therapists, with the clinician asking if another term, such as being 'very upset' or some such would be more accurate, and would like details.
I thought that might come up. Yes, I have been very upset by something Ts have said, but there were I think it's fair to say 4 times where I was severely triggered to completely re-traumatised and the T in question plus inpatient place couldn't see they'd done anything wrong. They just kept going at me like a dog with a bone. I'll see this weekend if I've ever written on here or anywhere else in English about it and could copy it in here for you. It would be too upsetting for me to try and explain the situations again.
just a quick thank you to everyone for all your efforts. i loved your snippets, hope, and find them completely validating to my perspective on trauma therapy. blueberry, thanks for looking for that, but if it's too much for you, don't. take care of yourself first, ok?
still too upset to go further with this today, so i'm resting again. but you all are so wonderful, so supportive - i've never found this in real life, certainly not from colleagues for the most part, but i want to say that i find your input more valuable than all the literature and theory quotes i've heard from clinicians. you know, they don't, and a lot of them are guessing wrong.
i'll address the rest of you at a later date. i want you all to know how much i've appreciated every word written here by everyone. love to you all.
Quote from: Eyessoblue on June 02, 2018, 11:04:02 AM
Hope; I really enjoy reading the snippets that you give us from this book, it all makes total sense to me. ... Thank you for sharing.
:yeahthat:
The snippets are really telling somehow. It's always good to learn more about the process of healing I think and not just rely on the T knowing, which takes us back to the original topic on here - some of us clients know as much of what's going on in us as the Ts and it would be good if Ts could appreciate that and accept a "NO!" when they hear it.
just want to let you all know that i just posted on the emdr list. it was a long post, but i think it covered everything necessary. thank you all once again for your support, for sharing your stories, and for making this possible.
the head mod there had posted that she'd had questions from clinicians as to whether emdr protocol or other changes were going to be made in light of the discussion about c-ptsd. she was openminded and said that she didn't know of any changes, but thought it was important that we as a community continue to evolve by looking at fresh information. that gave me the heart i needed to post what i had to say.
so, i don't know if there will be any responses or what kind. i did include that it took me so long to respond to the question because i'd been questioned before in a humiliating way and this question triggered anxiety and an ef for me. i know sceal had some misgivings about whether i'd be looked at as a patient or not, but as i was writing, i didn't care.
i felt strong, felt like an advocate for a worthy cause, and felt a bit numb as well, just typing without much feeling behind it. i knew it was what i needed to do to get thru it, so i was ok with it. i've had plenty of pos. feedback from t's on the list over the years about suggestions or perspectives i've offered when another t had a problem, so they know me, know that i've been in the field for many years.
as far as i'm concerned, they can look at me any way they want. i just hope that at least one reads t what i wrote and has a good long think about it. i'll share it here another day if you want. otherwise, know that all types of therapy was covered, including inpatient and outpatient. you were all very generous in giving me so much information about your experiences. thank you all so much. you are such wonderful,caring people.
ok, the exhaustion is beginning to set in. taking the rest of the day off. love and hugs all around.
San, I hope you are getting that much needed restful part of your day :hug: Thanpk you for taking so much time and energy to advocate for us, it is wonderful to know some of this is being discussed
i just found out that my emdr posting is being reviewed by the mod cuz it was so long. don't know yet what will happen with it, but it hasn't been posted to the list yet. guess we'll see what's gonna happen. just an update.
Hope you're feeling OK about that san? :hug:
nervous cuz i don't know what's going to happen. however, it also explains why there's been no responses. i didn't know about the limitation on how long a post could be. i think the worst that could happen is i get asked to shorten the post. i can do that. just hope it's nothing else.
there is the possibility that it will be posted as is. depends what the mod thinks, i guess. we'll find out. thanks for asking, blueberry.
ok, i contacted the mod, re-wrote, and re-sent. fingers crossed. we'll see if it goes thru this time. i'm nervous now about what kinds of responses there might be, if any. deep breath. and exhale.
I would be nervous too. I don't mean you should be of course, but just I understand :grouphug:
thanks, sweetie. i appreciate the support.
2 responses to my post. both positive.
one from quite the mucky-muck in the emdr community who said she wanted me and everyone to know that she's had experience with a c-ptsd client, and can totally see how this population could be easily re-traumatized in therapy. she didn't use the term c-ptsd, tho, so i replied that it would be a victory for us to get c-ptsd as an official diagnosis.
the other from a psychologist who thanked me for sharing, and said she found what i had to say and examples/details i gave as 'amazing'. so, sounds like she was clueless before.
yay! couldn't have done this without you all, your generosity and courage in sharing your experiences. thank you. there are more informed t's out there now, so hopefully treatment will become helpful for all of us.
San, it is great to hear there were positive responses to your post! :cheer: Thank you for taking all the time, energy, and emotional bandwidth to advocate for all of us on that page, it is truly important work :hug: Sending lots of love
thanks my dearest el. it is today that i'm feeling the effects of it all, so i'm off to the porch for the rest of the day. much love to you.
Quote from: Elphanigh on June 08, 2018, 02:32:50 PM
San, it is great to hear there were positive responses to your post! :cheer: Thank you for taking all the time, energy, and emotional bandwidth to advocate for all of us on that page, it is truly important work :hug: Sending lots of love
:yeahthat:
thank you, blueberry, you sweet thing. we're all in this together. i have so appreciated what you've shared, and it was more than enough.