Out of the Storm

I think I'm about to be terminated by my therapist.

We've had a difficult couple of sessions in which I was angry, though not at her, but it has brought up a few longstanding issues between us.  She suggested I email her after the last session, and I sent her a couple of emails.  I had given her money to cover the extra work, but I'm not not sure I was clear about the purpose.  In response to the emails, she said she would probably email the following day but didn't.  Today she responded to a query about a joint appointment (with someone else) but nothing else to do with the content of those emails.  Ironically, I still feel unable to go ahead with what I need to do because I'm still not clear if she will be attending, despite the reply.

In the first email I suggested that there were a couple of  points of disagreement between us and that rather than go around in circles with them, maybe we could agree to not talk about them.  I tried to express that I value her and our relationship and that there was so much that was deeply valuable to me in our work together, that from my point of view, what doesn't work is much less important, and gets in the way, I respect her opinion and would prefer to agree to disagree.

The other thing is that there is a a painful issue that I haven't been able to get over.  She has seemed impatient about my  inability to get over this, so I stopped talking about how i felt about it for a long time, but that didn't help.  It has impacted every area of my life.  There were a lot of things going on in relation to it, and I felt i couldn't talk much about them.  I know she'd rather I talk about my childhood but this is current and devastating.  I reported abuse in which i was being set up to be mobbed out of a group and project I'd put my heart, soul, time and energy and money into.  I had become acutely depressed and suicidal as a result. The person involved was a key member of the group which was my other main means of support.  I chose to report it in this group also, because the abuse had overlapped, and also because it meant I had to leave this group too.  My T warned me this group would close ranks and hurt me if I did.

At first there was apparent support when i spoke about it, but I was lied to, betrayed, and their actions meant that i was effectively mobbed out of my relationships in both groups.  The consequences went even wider than the members of these groups.  Which was what my therapist predicted, in the sense that she said I would not be heard and speaking out would hurt me more.  There were ways in which what happened outstripped my capacity to "catastrophise" just how badly I would be betrayed and how badly it would affect me.  Anyway, it was my choice to go ahead and I did believe that although I might not be heard or believed, that the people I spoke to were trustworthy enough to not take action (against my express wishes) leading to further harm, to  breach of confidential information which could be used by the abuser, and that they would be honest with  me.  And I was wrong.

I don't know if it is partly because of me making a choice that she warned against, but I felt she has been irritable and impatient when I've tried to talk about how i feel, has reminded me that it was my choice to go ahead, that I had been warned they would unite against me.   At the time i said I was prepared to take the consequences and I am and have done.  But I need help with my feelings and with  dealing with the practical consequences of the fallout.  The abuser is dangerous, highly manipulative and poisonous and in a position to badly hurt others.  I'm not the first person she has pushed out of either group.  I did what I felt I needed to do.

So, after a couple of difficult sessions I said in my email that I thought it would be a good idea if I find someone else to talk about this particular thing with, to try and process it and get over it. I don't want to end therapy with my therapist.  I assume I offended her, but she hasn't responded.  She has been fantastic in so many ways.  I so value her and what she has done for me,  there aren't words to express how much.  I don't expect perfection from anyone.  I hoped I could find a way to get past some issues in asking to agree to disagree about a couple of things and to seek an alternative person to talk with about the loss and outfall of speaking out.  It doesn't mean I don't trust her - actually it took a lot of trust to be as honest as I was.  I don't want to pretend or be dishonest.  I need to get through my feelings about what happened and feel it would be better to do that with someone else.  I would wish to continue therapy with my T.

She has been brilliant through our time working together, better than I imagined I could hope for.  I feel afraid waiting for an axe to fall this week.  I don't regret being honest and I won't blame her if she chooses to end our work together.  I have been hard work - a difficult case.  Most therapists seem to be doing a bit of CBT/mindfulness with a few specific client problems. cPTSD work is a huge ask,it  is emotionally demanding , requires genuine caring and the development of a relationship way beyond the demands of most clients in a 'normal' middle-class practice.  Maybe she has come to the point where she has given all she can give.  I wouldn't blame her and I'll always be grateful to her if she has had enough.

But I feel sad and afraid.

That's really sad, you have just been honest, as a therapist surely she should understand all your feelings and concerns and not to reply to your emails just leaves you with uncertainty. Could you maybe email her again and say how much she has helped you etc and how you actually do need her still. It would be very difficult for you mentally and emotionally to have to find another therapist, reading between the lines it seems that she has really helped you and you're just going through a 'blip' with her at the moment which I think does happen a lot and she surely should know this. It's never plain sailing when you're in therapy, I myself have had times when I've left a session furious with what she's said to me and vowed to myself never to go back, if I could have emailed her I would have done but probably would have regretted it after, now I write in a journal how I feel and normally by the time of my next session I have got over it but do say how she's made me feel and we normally work through it together. It is hard trying to find a therapist that works for' you' in understanding and getting on the same wavelength as you.

Radical, when I read your post  it struck me how honest, fair and human you were in it. If I were your T I think I could not help but respond to all that you wrote, and not just as a T but as a fellow human being. Being truthful in a respectful way is a gift imo so I truly hope you can say these things to her, that she will hear you and you can work through this together for both your sakes.   :hug:

Thank you for your replies.  I hope we can work this out.  I was just reading another thread that described part of the problem for me:
:)Don't get attached to a therapy or approach. Its easy to find something that helps, and believe it is the One True Way, become evangelical about it. It helps with motivation to stick with it, but it can also make you ignore what's NOT working and become too invested in "selling" it to others, perhaps even make forays into becoming The Guru (looks at self in mirror :| )

Oh, and if you're a perfectionist or people pleaser - be careful not to try and be "good at therapy" and get an 'A' from your therapist :D Its the one place you really need to be emotionally honest, be free to screw up, be lazy, be whatever. One quote I remember reading - "therapy doesn't really begin until the client gets angry with the therapist". Worth bearing in mind :)

Thanks Biscuit, if you are around.

My therapist doesn't always hold to her particular therapy mode, but at times I feel that there are things I need to work on, experiences which are important, which seem to be so far outside what she believes in that i find it very difficult to deal with them.  This is about the part of the post (above) where I talk about the need to agree to not talk about particular things.

Now I think about it, agreeing to disagree and not talking about them is not going to be an answer.  i don't want to go into too much detail and part of that is I feel a sense of disloyalty in describing the problem more fully, that I'm being unfair to her even though she's not reading this.

I do feel good when I'm the 'good client' and things go well, I translate my experiences into the framework.  Most things can be.   More and more lately, I can't find a way through.  More and more I feel suppressed by the model.  A couple of the most important experiences of integration I've had had been about "choosing me".  It doesn't sit well with me - selfishness leading to a profound sense of integration, and it also doesn't sit well in the model.  The model (ACT) is based on no-self, and my therapist is Buddhist.  I can't be certain that this is the core of the problem but it feels like it is a big part of it.

She isn't rigid. Our relationship has been so healing.  But I do feel at an impasse.  There have been some things that have been really troubling and I feel blocked in talking about them because she sees them as illusory and I don't.  i see them as real problems that I want to work on.  I know there are things that seem like problems which actually hide the real problem.  I have looked at whether I believe it to be the case, and i don't.  The problems relate to my actual experiences, i don't believe them to be mere perceptions but, that they  are real problems for me.  I'm sure there are elements to these problems that are about my perceptions, that I need to understand, but these are not non-problems covering 'real issues'.

I feel guilty writing this about someone who has been there for me through thick and thin, (above and beyond the call of duty too), who has shared her wisdom and warmth with such generosity.  I so hope we can work this out.

radical, since it seems that it's what you want to do, i also hope you and she can work this out.

i just have some concerns about her methods - that of not 'hearing' you when you say something is important to you, becoming irritable with you if you don't do what she had suggested, and so on.  i don't understand that type of therapeutic approach.  knowing you from your postings here, you seem so down to earth and straightforward, and i can't see you wanting to talk about something that you believe is huge and a big matter in your life if it wasn't just that.  therefore, i don't understand why she wants to shy away from it, and wants to talk about other things (like your childhood) when it seems clear to me that you need some support for what you're going through right now.

(by the by, i've made some of those decisions as well, to speak up, and it's not gone well, even when others have told me they didn't think it's a good thing to do.  even so, the fallout is real, painful, and unpleasant, and a little soothing compassion is always appreciated).

as far as saying you're a tough case, as if to excuse her attitude, speaking from the other side of the desk, there really aren't very many 'easy' cases.  they all take care, compassion, a willingness to explore, listen, guide, help the person find their way through a jungle that might be overgrown with vines and infested with dangerous animals.  that's just part of the job.  and if she has a certain way of seeing things, and you're not fitting into that way, that's not on you. 

in grad school, we were shown vignettes of a woman who went to 3 different kinds of therapists.  they were the leaders of their own school of therapy (client-centered, gestalt, rational-emotive.) and she brought the same problem to each one.  he worked with her out of his framework, and at the end, she talked about which one she liked best.  that kind of thing is different for everyone, especially if the therapist has a particular framework from which s/he holds a certain perspective.  everyone doesn't fit into every framework.

you said your therapist is buddhist, and is coming from a 'no-self' paradigm, and you're feeling that you're at an impasse.  (by the way, there's no shame or guilt about speaking about her and what's going on.  you've been nothing but respectful - you're just talking about the fact that you've run into some problems).  you also said that her framework may be a big part of the problem.  radical, with your logic and gut reactions that i've read in this forum, i'd trust that.

relationships of whatever kind can run their course.  i agree with you that attempting to avoid subjects, or wanting to ignore them/put them to the side because you and she can't seem to agree is not going to help you explore in depth the issues that are bothering you and preventing you from moving forward.  perhaps this is the case here.  i'm not saying she's a bad therapist, or that you haven't gotten a lot of good out of the relationship, but maybe it's gone as far as it can and it's come to the point where you need a different perspective in order to resolve the issues that are getting in the way of you moving on.

co-therapy is possible, especially if it's with someone who has a specialty.  i know of a lot of emdr therapists who work on the trauma part while the regular therapist works on other issues.  so, that is an option, if your present therapist agrees.  in the meantime, you deserve to be heard for what's going on with you and how it's affecting you in the here and now as well as what has happened in your past.

i'm going to have to look up that 'no-self' framework for therapy, because that's got me confused.  glad you brought it up - it's a new one on me.  whatever works is best, but when it stops working, well, that happens, too.  and, personally, i don't like that she's left you hanging by not answering your email.  of course that would bring up all kinds of questions and concerns about what does that mean?  including, am i going to be fired as a client?  i don't think that was fair of her to put you in that position.  just my opinions.

Thank you for responding, SM.

At the heart of our therapy is our relationship.  It has never been based on just one modality.  I didn't mean to imply it was.  No-self is a Buddhist belief and not a part of ACT, though to complicate things ACT is somewhat founded on some of the principles of Buddhist philosophy, as are all mindfulness-based treatments.

She has reassured me that she is not thinking of ending therapy with me and we are going to talk about this today.  I haven't really done justice to her or our relationship in trying to write about this.

radical, i think you were writing from a place of concern or confusion or something.  i didn't see anything from what you said that would make me think she was a bad therapist, or bad for you in any way.  your post continually emphasized that she's been very helpful to you over time, that maybe this was just a bump in the road that you didn't quite understand.  and, i'm sorry if i sounded like i was putting her down - i really wasn't.  just letting out thoughts.

the main thing is that the two of you are going to talk about it, and i'm very glad about that.  i hope it all turns out well for you and for the relationship.  the therapeutic relationship, like any other, needs to be updated every so often, things cleared up and out, especially when it's a relationship of any longstanding amount of time.  then, everyone is able to move on from there, like a refresh.  best to you.  always on your side.

We talked.

Now it's me who is thinking about terminating our therapy relationship.
It went fine in a way, except now I'm away I feel that she brushed over all my concerns and pathologised my having them.

Just in regard to the last fraught session, in which I was in crisis (something I realise she still doesn't get), we argued for virtually the entire session.  She talked over me and didn't let me finish sentences.  In the end she asked me to email her.  I did, and raised about five different concerns about our therapy relationship.  A couple of days later she wrote to say she would get to it the following day.  She didn't.  I finally sent an email asking if she was going to attend an upcoming appointment with someone else that hadn't been confirmed.  Her brief reply didn't even answer this question.  I wondered if she was considering terminating and briefly asked.  She said she wasn't.  When I raised the email issue she said she'd been busy.

Today,  I altered my approach with her because i thought my problem with communicating might be part of the problem.  I told her i was going to explain my point, and then, briefly, the situation, because I felt that she wasn't getting my points (understanding where i was coming from). 

Christmas is really hard for me, this one coming up feels like a crisis with so many things coming to a head.  I can't remember the last time I felt heard.

edit to add - I appreciated your reply SM.  After today, it was useful to come back to.  I need to be heard and not to have my problems seem to annoy my therapist.  I have emailed her about this.  I hope we can work this out.

 :hug:

it sounds like a dilemma, radical.  it also sounds like you're getting some new eyes with which to look at all that's happening with her.  i think that's a good thing.

the holidays have so much 'family' pressure on them, and too many times it seems that people are almost forced into spending what's supposed to be a time of love and giving with people who have hurt them or continue to hurt them.   if this is the kind of thing you're feeling strongly about exploring in therapy, yeah, you deserve to be heard.  this holiday thing comes around every year, and if it's a painful time, i think it deserves some priority.  childhood issues will always be there, but this entire holiday season is rife with triggers and memories, and warrants attention right now!

maybe that's not what you're even talking about, but it's what came to mind after reading what you wrote.

i'm glad you're questioning what's going on with  your therapist.  i don't think that's a bad thing.  it doesn't mean it's negative, only that you're seeing things from a different perspective, possibly one that is more in keeping with your own needs, wishes, and wants.  you can't remember the last time you've been heard?  you mean by your therapist?   well, that can't feel good or productive.

and, i'm really sorry for you having such a difficult session.  i have a hard time picturing actually spending all that time arguing with a client.  maybe a friend might do something like that, but not a professional.  personally, from the way you write, i think your communication comes across loud and clear.  but, brushing aside and pathologising your concerns - mmmm, red flag for me.  (of course, i want therapy to go perfectly for everyone - that may be just me!  : )  ) again, i hope this is a glitch that can be overcome if that's what you want.  best to you, radical.  this is a rotten time for this to be happening to you.    big hug!

I appreciate your support SM.
I will be seeing her tomorrow with someone else about a medication issue.  I intend to cancel our final appointment of the year.  I feel like I've been trying every way I can to to and improve things.  I find it very disturbing that since things have been so difficult, she has only responded positively when I have tried to placate her  (ie when I've anxiously tried to make her feel better, and smooth over the cracks), and either ignored or pathologised my concerns.

I understand that she is frustrated in my inability to get over the situation which destroyed by social systems and badly traumatised me.  I stopped talking about how I felt about it for a long time. I've found comments snapped impatiently such as "you need to grow a thicker skin",  and "well it was your choice to report it", and numerous others to be hurtful.  There have been many that have expressed frustration that I can't get over it.

In this last session, I felt she expressed a lengthy, patronising version of 'I think you are more disturbed than I realised'.  She didn't address any of my concerns.  She snapped at me when I tried to say how I felt (including about my fears about Christmas) and was approving when I went along with her interpretations. I was trying to see things from her point of view, but now I have come away, I disagree.  She has said I am pushing people away in relation to a couple of people who let me down badly, betrayed my confidence and made the situation worse when I reported it to them.  I have been repeatedly gaslit about the situation by their continually trying to persuade me, since, that I was wrong about the abusive person, who continues to be close a friend of theirs.  I was taking my therapist's advice in continuing with this crazy-making situation.

I have found her to be more and more prescriptive in telling me what I should do, and what I should think.  There has been a huge issue about my lack of boundaries that I've tried to explain over months and I've run into the 'no-self' problem.  I've tied myself in knots trying not to use any words such as 'identity', 'self' etc. and therefore struggled with expressing any problems in relation to them because it's hard to describe problems about things she doesn't see as an issue because they are illusory.  I do understand her perspective on this, but I am having problems in the social world in which these things do exist, and a knee-jerk reaction that problems in relation to them aren't real problems is unhelpful.

I feel part of the problem is that she feels I'm blaming her for the pain I've been in about where I find myself in my life.  I don't.  I feel angry and hurt that I've found our sessions in the last couple of months mostly unhelpful.  I've extended the time, come up with improvements in the way I communicate, tried to find solutions that don't offend or hurt her, but things have gotten steadily worse.  I've taken on board what she's said, written about and thought about them, tried to talk about them from my point of view, and have felt unable to make things any better.

This has been a really important relationship and she has been genuinely wonderful over the time we've been working together, but i can't afford another awful session before Christmas.

o, radical, you wrote so many things that just seem wrong to me with being a professional.  it's not your job to make things easy for her, it's the other way around.  her impatience, irritability, 'shoulding' you, acting one way when you appease her, and another way when you stick up for yourself - i'm sorry, but i don't see this as a good professional relationship anymore.  i'm sorry this has happened to you at this time, especially when it's at a point in the year where you have problematic issues coming at you, and need help and support in dealing with them.

snapping at you?  how is that kind of behavior helpful?  patronizing you?  encouraging you to stay in situations where you are being abused?  you know, radical, when you first began writing about this, you didn't really say much about what was going on in this relationship.  the more you've shared, the more i'm glad you're getting out. 

therapists' jobs are to build a client up, guide, help them over the rough spots, give them tools so that they can go out into the world and make healthier choices for themselves - in other words, to help them heal.  i've always believed that if i did my job right, i'd put myself out of work, because my clients would be able to leave the relationship with confidence, self-esteem, and new knowledge about how to deal with the situations they might find themselves in.   they wouldn't need me anymore.  that, to me, was success.

but, what you're now writing about doesn't seem to fit much of that criteria, at least not in the past few months.  telling you to grow a thicker skin does not help you explore and resolve the root problem.  i don't think she's a trauma therapist or understands much about c-ptsd and its layers, nuances, and detriments to a person's very soul. 

i am sorry it didn't work out.  i'm glad you got some good out of it, but it sounds to me like it's time to move on.  my heart is with you, radical.  thanks for sharing.  i think you've been able to see the reality of something you kind of didn't want to look at too closely for awhile.  very courageous, you.  big hug.

Quote from: sanmagic7 on December 15, 2016, 12:20:22 AM
it's not your job to make things easy for her, it's the other way around. 

This.

So sorry it didn't work out, radical. :(

Thanks for your support.

When it has been good it has been really good.  I feel gutted and at a loss to know how to proceed.  She is important to me. the best thing I can do is get some space and try and resolve this after the holidays.  Maybe some time out will help

I can't continue to feel worse after every session and feel that I have to say what she wants to hear, or at best find a way to translate things into a format in which she can hear them (possibly), and keep quiet about much of what is important and bothering to me. 

I don't think she has any idea how troubled I've been about our relationship, or for how long. 

my heart is with you, radical.  i wish i could do more to support and be there for you.  i think you're right - she sounds pretty clueless about the dynamic of this relationship.  big hug to you.

I'm sorry it's not working out Radical.  Perhaps you have moved beyond her capabilities as a T and a person.  I say that because when I read about her reactions and yours I felt like I was back with my FOO trying to reach them and they just couldn't or wouldn't see me, connect with me.  For whatever reason, it just wasn't going to happen with them and it seems this may be true of your T.

I can see why it has been gutting, and it likely will continue to be if you to try to find in her what she doesn't have to give, to get her to see what she cannot because of her own psychological makeup.  It may be time to let go, acknowledge the good you and she accomplished, and move on to a T who can connect with you where you are in recovery now.  If there is any silver lining in this, it is perhaps that you have recovered to such a place that you have need of someone who can go to new levels with you, who will let you speak your truth, and be who you need to be as you move out of the chaos of CPTSD. 

Thanks Kizzie,

I don't know what has gone wrong, but i don't think this problem is any reflection on her capabilities.

I'm in a pretty good place these last few days, but earlier, when I was suffering badly I felt despair about this.  My therapist got me here.  She didn't give up on me when I gave up on myself, and had faith in me when I couldn't find any of my own.  She was the person I learned to trust.  All the things I was too scared to show anyone - I literally couldn't make myself before, little by little I found I could.  There is no way that the love, wisdom and generosity I've experienced can ever be expected of anyone, and no amount of money could pay for it.

It feels like she doesn't really like the person I'm becoming, that she is disappointed by the direction I'm choosing, yet it has been her love that has got me to the place of taking such risks and having choices. I recently wrote in my journal "when did I make the decision to risk everything"?  because I saw that I was willing to risk losing my relationship with her.  Ironically, the very relationship that got me to a place where I was able to take risks in relationships, to stand up for and stand with myself for the first time.  I hope she doesn't see the result as a failure, because I don't.  It has certainly led to some radical decisions (and consequences), but I needed to make them. 

This has been a difficult time, so much turmoil and upheaval.  It has been hard on her being with me through this.  It may be that we are coming to the place where our paths diverge, but maybe that is part of the process, and maybe there is no pain and conflict-free way of getting through it.

Your reflections on this are very touching, Radical.

I once had a T who seemed 'the perfect fit' and it didn't last long. For many reasons, it soon was obvious I needed to pull back from what I sensed was going on. When I expressed this to her and declared I was opting out, she blew a cork and insisted that at the very least I needed 'closure'. I felt open to exploring this but she seemed to have a predetermined outcome override any of my doubts, with no discussion as an option that would disrupt her 'plan'.

My answer to her was along the lines of huh--does any therapy really ever end? Doesn't it evolve like the rest of life?.. Closure? As if I've reached the promised land of 'just get over it'? While in fact I learned much from our early sessions, as we progressed I felt as if I was only being made to fit into her grand scheme, what she referred to as her patented/trademarked 'life script' program; based on a graduate thesis she apparently never allowed to flex. This left me feeling like I was some round peg being manipulated to fit into someone else's game-board on which there was no wriggle-room; and I was just her latest game-piece. What started with promise ended with agonized withdrawal; but I still feel we'd had an early rapport where it seemed we connected well and from which I found some relief--'til the cracks became too wide to repair.

What resonates from what you say is that, whatever the reason, you know and appreciate the good that came from the relationship, but also seem aware of the current impasse. While you've worked hard to bridge that, it seems you realize the hazards of letting it drift further off course. The key is not to feel as if that's a failure, on either part; that there are no sides (and, if I read you right, you still are open to other explanations).

Thanks for sharing those insights. Therapy is like life in microcosm, I guess, with its unexpected twists and turns. Hopefully the pain doesn't keep us from seeing the good parts, and vice-versa.

I'm still with this problem. 

It is probably for the best that there will be no therapy for another three or four weeks because of the holidays.  I keep trying to think of ways of bridging the impasse, but all my attempts so far have made things worse, just added another layer of misunderstanding.  I've tried hard to not be confrontational, but there doesn't seem to be any way of addressing my concerns that don't coming across as challenging and distrusting my therapist.  At the lowest level, I haven't been heard, and as soon as I break through the barrier of being heard, I seem to hurt her and make her defensive, and I hate that.

There have been problems with our differences and misunderstandings throughout our time together, but I valued her insights and our relationship, so I looked into what she said where the content felt 'off' and, when despite this, I continued to feel that I was misunderstood or unheard I either forgot, or decided to let it go and get on with what worked.   When things were going really well or I was extremely vulnerable and needed her most, I completely forgot . I know there are always differences of opinion and understanding between people.  Much of it really doesn't matter.  Now, unfortunately, I've reached a place in therapy where it does matter, a place where it seems to have created a fork in the road and I don't feel I can progress any further, or move in the direction I need to go, and I can't see a way past this. 

I feel my most important task is integrating much more of the different aspects of my "self" (or "selves") into being accessible in the moment - to make parts of myself that I need to look after myself in relation to others, and just as importantly, to be authentic, whole, and real to myself and others.  I can't carry on living in narrowed-down versions of myself that arose out of fear, abuse and powerlessness, and keep accumulating abuse and disrespect as a result.  In their split-off forms these parts probably seem horrible, and in accessing them (what Walker talks of as "angering" in therapy), it might seem like I'm moving in the direction of becoming hostile, aggressive and vengeful, but it's not about that, it's about integrating them.  I believe I need to be able to feel all of my feelings in the moment, and and access to the whole 'menu' of possible responses, especially at a low level when there are just signs of something amiss that I need to respond to at that same low level.  Reacting reflexively with increased appeasement or shut-down, to any sense of social or interpersonal threat has been disastrous for me.  It's not that I want to become an aggressor, or throw my weight around, it's about being able to feel what I actually feel and be able to make the most useful choice of response, in line with my values.

I feel like I've changed so much, especially these past two years.  It feels like there is little time in therapy to cover what has been happening that is important to me, and it has been hard to change my way of interacting with my therapist in a way that reflects the changes.  Often, what I need is to feel the security of the relationship, much more than I need to express myself. As a result, I think many things I've been processing in a variety of ways over a long period seem to come out of the blue, in stark contrast to the usual 'people-pleasing' and finding common, familiar ground.  I fear she may feel betrayed to be finding how much I've said what I felt she wanted to hear to try and protect a relationship I needed.  It's not that i was manipulating or being insincere, it is part of the problem for me, and after years of plugging into what other people apparently want, and disconnecting from myself, it's not something that has been a choice.  Now it is becoming a choice to not be that way, I choose to be authentic, and I fear it spells the end of the very relationship that allowed me to get to this place.

If anyone wants to respond, please don't misunderstand this as black and white.  The depth and caring in this relationship has saved my life.  It's probably much more complicated than I'm able to express.

Radical,

I am so sorry I missed this thread in December.  I wasn't in a good place then.  I am trying to get through it now, but it is a lot to catch up on.  I'll reply more after I read more, but I think you grown in therapy just by what you were able to tell her.

radical, there are a few thoughts that came to mind.

one was that some relationships have a starting, middle, and end point.  that may be what's happening here.

another was that, from a professional viewpoint, i don't believe that a client can betray me.  my job is to help the client see his/her way out of the tangle they're in, give them tools and insights that they may not possess so that they don't get trapped again, and hopefully guide them to a place where they don't need me anymore.  whether that's because they're 'cured' or just need someone else's guidance now doesn't matter.   as a therapist, on one level, this is not a personal relationship.  the client is paying me, deciding whether s/he can trust me enough to be vulnerable in order to work on seminal issues, and, in turn, i give the client the best i have.  but, in all cases, there is an imbalance of power.  the therapist wields more power because the therapist is not the one to be vulnerable in this relationship.  the therapist has a job to do, and that is first and foremost the object of the day.

i've learned that there are no 'difficult' clients, only that i might be using the wrong strategy with them.  the working part of the relationship is on me.  the recovering part of the relationship is on the client, but it's on me as well to give him/her what they need to be able to recover.  therefore, it's all on me in a sense.  i can't be betrayed, have my feelings hurt, become irritated/angry at what the client is or isn't doing because if i am, then i'm doing something wrong, and need to explore that within myself and fix it within myself.  it's not up to the client to understand me - that's my job.  it's not up to the client to please me - that gets no one anywhere as far as recovery goes.  it's not up to the client to worry about hurting my feelings - my feelings don't belong in that relationship.  if i do have feelings, again, it's up to me to explore what's going on with me, but also to reassure the client that it's not his/her concern or fault.

the client's best interest is number one priority - always!  and that's totally on the therapist to make sure that priority stays in place and everything done in session and in the relationship is geared toward that.  when i fired this last therapist, it was over getting a hug at the end of a session.  she knew about the alexithymia, and we'd had a conversation about how that touch was something positive i could feel.  she's mexican, i'm not, and several times she reminded me that maybe that was a cultural custom in the states, but not necessarily in mexico.  while i was going thru my training, one thing that was pointed out to me over and over was that a client's culture must be recognized and respected.  as long as no one was getting hurt, of course.  in my case, this therapist refused to do something that would help me, her client, to feel better simply because she didn't feel comfortable with it (and, before this particular session, i'd seen her probably 2 doz. times, and she gave me hugs at the end of each session when i asked, saying 'it's what you need'.)  where that thinking went, i don't know, but i do know that it was not putting me first, which, as a client, is where i belonged.

so, that's my two cents worth on therapist/client relationships.  radical, i know you'll do what's best for yourself, and that it is a difficult dilemma you find yourself in.  this kind of thing is rarely easy or simple.  there are always layers to consider.  i just hope you go with your gut - if it doesn't feel right there, it's probably not.  big hug, dear radical. 

I agree there is an imbalance of power.  I know i have a problem with 'people pleasing' though i don't think that term does justice to the issues involved in the problem, but there are two people in every relationship,and i don't believe one person's feelings, in any relationship, can ever not matter, or just be put to one side.

I believe your therapist should have told you she couldn't give you what you needed if you needed a hug after every session, I don't believe she should have ignored her own feelings about touch and been inauthentic.

I understand I'm messed up over this problem.  But i don't think anyone can just act out what another wants or needs and for that to be genuinely healing to another suffering the effects of cPTSD.

I wanted to come back to this briefly.  I need to get right away from the computer today after this.

I'm trying to tease out what i mean, for my own benefit.  I guess when i talk about equality it is part of two things i believe.  One is that all people are equal, and that imbalances of power and need don't change that fact.  Such imbalances exist in every relationship.  The imbalance is extreme and therefore potentially dangerous in psychotherapy, but I can't see how a different format that might lessen that imbalance could be equally potentially healing.

The other belief is that for a relationship to be deeply healing, it must be authentic on both sides.  That doesn't entail some kind of free-for-all expression of any feeling that comes up (it never does in any relationship), it doesn't mean the therapist isn't focusing on the client's needs rather than their own in the session, that the relationship must be as important to the therapist as it is to the client, or that it function in the way non-therapy relationships do.  Obviously, therapy for a therapist is a job, and when the session ends they have another client, and then another, and at the end of the day they go home and get on with their personal life.  What it means to me, is that within the confines of the therapy relationship, they are relating from their own authenticity and integrity.  To me, an honest relationship between two people involves enacting the truth of  what I believe is a fundamental human equality, beyond all superficial externalities.  Building trust and healing comes from that place, from moments of truth.  It doesn't require anyone to be perfect or to be more or less than they actually are.

i agree with you, radical, that both people in a therapeutic relationship need to be authentic, and that integrity is important.  maybe i came off too harshly, maybe i didn't explain myself clearly, or maybe i just didn't use the right words.  if so, i apologize.  that wasn't my intention.

let's see if i can say this differently.  when i'm in my therapist's chair, i am the one responsible.  i'm there to serve my client, not the other way around.  i don't believe it is the same type of relationship as that of two friends.  to me, two friends are equal, have equal power in the relationship.  both are responsible for the relationship in an equal manner.

in a therapeutic relationship, (and i'm only speaking from my point of view.  maybe you view it differently, and that's your right), i am a guide.  just like if i hired a guide to take me through a national forest - the guide has more knowledge, more experience with the territory and terrain, knows more about the pitfalls, and can point out vistas of beauty that i might otherwise miss.  it's the guide's job to make this the best experience for me as possible, not the other way around - an imbalance of power.   the guide answers my questions as best as s/he can, and will acknowledge if s/he doesn't know the answer, but doesn't argue with me or get mad at me if i say something not to his/her liking.  the guide's training has hopefully covered such incidents and how to tactfully handle them.

i see it the same way in a therapeutic relationship.  the client chooses the goals (like i chose the national forest), but then it's my job to be the guide that gets the client through everything in order to reach those goals.  if there is a disagreement, we can explore it.  i believe that a client's feelings are part of the process of getting to the goals.  i am with the client in the role of helper.  my personal emotions, if they are somehow neg. to the situation, do not benefit the client, and it's on me not to let my emotions get in the way of the client's process.  hopefully my training and experience allow me to not have that problem.  i don't see this as being inauthentic, but rather caring and considerate of the client's process.

not to say i'm perfect at it, or that i won't make mistakes.  we therapists are human, too.  and, for many of us, it's not just a job, but a responsibility to the people who sit in that other chair in distress, confused, suffering and wanting to find answers.  everything i can do to help ease, untangle, nurture, and provide the necessary information is what i want to do.   i chose to be a helper because it makes my heart sing to see someone find their way through the darkness into the light.  i found a personal satisfaction that made me excited to see the next person, and the next.   it was never just a job.  in fact, my goal was always to put myself out of business, to help people find their way in their lives so that they didn't need me anymore.  when that happened, i was happiest of all.

again, this is all my opinion.  every therapist works differently, every client responds differently, and every therapeutic relationship has its own dynamic.  there is no cut-and-dried way to do therapy, just like there's no cut-and-dried way to be a client.  but the best progress will be made if the fit is there between  the client and the therapist.

as far as me and my ex-therapist, well, it just didn't work for me.  so i left.

i know this is difficult for you radical, and i wish you only the best.  i hope you know that.  i'm really sorry if i've confused you even more.   it's such a personal experience.  if you had 10 different therapists writing here, you might get 10 different perspectives.  mine is only what works for me.  if it doesn't work for you, there's no problem.  i'm glad you have time for contemplation on this.  it's a big decision.  big hug, my friend.

Radical,
I'm sorry for what you are going through with your T.  The hugs and then no hugs would have hurt me too.  Especially with no explanation or warning.  What you wrote in your last post is so on point.  The client at the very least needs to be able to trust there is authenticity from the T.  When there is not it can be re-traumatizing with child hood trauma.  I like SMs analogy of them being a guide from darkness to the light.  Mistakes can happen but when they do it is important to acknowledge them and clear them up vs blow them off or ignore them.  Otherwise our 'guide' could set off many triggers and lead us back into darkness which is harmful.  I am coming up on an anniversary of having gone through a very bad ending with a T and it was re-traumatizing.  I don't think many are aware of how harmful it can be for a client. I hope your situation improves. 

Thanks Max and San.

I was thinking about this as I did my chores and this is sounding more and more nuts even to my ears.  I could be wayyyyy off with this and if so, I need to know, so I'll try to explain.

Here's how it feels to me.  I understand your tour guide analogy, and for most kinds of therapy it is apt. For problems like anxiety, depression, major life transitions, relationship problems etc, I'd say that the model you describe is a good one. Well trained therapists know the terrain, and the hazards to steer away from.  They are well-versed in knowledge and wisdom and strategies.    But though cPTSD can have elements of the above and more, and sufferers can be helped by such an approach, at the heart of the condition is a profound breakdown in trust.  As useful as knowledge  and skills are, it is the experience of an authentic relationship, not with a guide, but a real person, that can possibly allow healing this breakdown.

Radical, you seem to be talking about healing attachment trauma. I agree that it is a different process with different requirements. At least, that has been my experience. Everything you wrote makes perfect sense to me.

ok, i get it, radical.  it's a different dynamic for a different issue.  the genuineness plays another role in the relationship that is required for the healing to be able to take place.  i think that's what you're saying.  and, mourningdove, i have to admit, i haven't heard of healing attachment trauma.  something new every day.

      :hug:

Sanmagic, the following is a quote from It's Not You, It's What Happened To You, by Christine Courtois. (I'm sharing it because I'm not knowledgeable enough to explain the idea of attachment trauma in my own words.)

Quotea. Attachment Trauma (Relational Trauma) is a form of interpersonal trauma that occurs in relationships where there is primary dependency or a close personal bond, such as a parent-child relationship or a romantic partnership (marriage or the equivalent). Neglect, emotional abuse, physical abuse, sexual abuse, and domestic violence are common forms of attachment trauma. Attachment trauma, especially when it occurs over the course of childhood, has severe developmental consequences that can set the victim up for additional traumatization later in life. This is referred to as developmental attachment trauma because it can have a profound impact on a child's development.

i. Betrayal Trauma involves the abuse of a relationship or a role for purposes of exploitation. There is often a close relationship between the victim and the perpetrator, such a parent-child bond or a spousal bond. Domestic violence and various forms of in-the-home child abuse are common forms of betrayal trauma. The difficulty for the victim is that the mistreatment occurs in the context of a relationship that fosters needed attachment and dependency and has other, more positive elements that may obscure the true meaning of the abuse. The relationship may be used to obscure or misrepresent abuse, and victims may be "groomed" into relationships where they are later abused and exploited. In these circumstances, the victim and the perpetrator often develop what is known as a "trauma bond" as part of their relationship, something that often causes a great deal of later confusion for the victim.

ii. Secondary Trauma (also known as the "second injury") occurs when the insensitivity or a lack of assistance on the part of those whose role requires them to provide assistance, intervention, or protection in the face of danger. Essentially, "insult to injury" occurs when a person or institution that should provide help does not and/or does additional damage. Take, for instance, a child being bullied at school who is told by a teacher or administrator to either suck it up or to fight back, with no other assistance or intervention. Rape victims in particular have long complained that insensitive and even degrading treatment by police, criminal justice workers, and medical personnel is often as bad, if not worse, than the actual rape – making the overall experience much more painful.

iii. Institutional Trauma refers to lack of response, assistance, protection, or intervention at an instituational level, especially when that institution or agency is charged with providing services to or protecting its members. This sort of cover-up can involve the scapegoating or punishment of a disclosing or complaining individual (the victim) or those who might be protecting or supporting that person (such as relatives or coworkers). Common examples of institutional trauma include abuse by clergy that is covered up by a church's hierarchy, sexual abuse by coaches that is covered up (i.e., Penn State), and sexual abuse in the military when a cover-up within the chain of command protects the perpetrator(s) at the expense of the victim(s).

Oh boy! Thanks Mourning Dove. Great description and so very necessary to know.

Definitely identify with seconday trauma.

All four.

thanks so much, mourningdove.  i can really relate to all 4, one in childhood (emot. neglect) and the other 3 in adulthood (therapist, husbands, and the medical community).  so glad you put this out here.  again, making sense of the senseless.

i especially relate to how the one traumatic arena can set you up for trauma in the other areas.  that's exactly what i feel like happened to me.  good to be validated on that. 

Radical,

Where are you with this these days?

Hi Dee,

I'm thinking about what I need from therapy.  I'm feeling sad because I don't see a way beyond this place, it feels like an impasse, and with everything my therapist has given to me, and means to me, I feel like I am soon going to lose one of the most important people of my whole life.  I feel I can handle that, but fear it becoming a mess that doesn't do justice to our relationship, and I really need a "positive" experience and to be able to grieve.  It's something I've seldom, if ever, experienced. 

I'm trying to hold onto my own feelings, because I fear that she will feel blamed and judged, when it's not about that.  I feel sad that it seems my dissociative fawning and the fallout that always goes with it has harmed another important relationship, when I tried so hard not to be that way.  I wonder if I'll ever get past this problem.  But my need to be authentic and to integrate dissociated parts of myself, so I can have access to more of the whole, and through that to broader range of responses and to different experiences, nothing is more important to me.  I wish I felt I could work on this within this relationship, but the more I've tried the more I've felt pushed back onto a path that doesn't feel like my path.

This old Cat Stevens song 'father and son' captures some of the feelings, though the lyrics are far from a perfect fit:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yERildSsWxM

Quotei especially relate to how the one traumatic arena can set you up for trauma in the other areas.

Could not agree more. My first serious trauma I worked through, and was well on the way to recovery. The next came swiftly during/after.  Both bad luck, but the second retraumatised the first, and I found myself very lost and without the support I thought I had. That left me open to abuse, completely preventable had I not been traumatised already.

Radical I have been following this thread and do hope dearly that there is a resolution soon. I'm not sure what to say. My doc confronted me recently, which I know for other people that would mean never seeing them again. I saw her again, told her that she in fact upset me, and have decided to give more space between appointments.

I think that will work for me. Could that possibly be an option for you too?

radical, thanks for sharing your thoughts and feelings on this.  i hope you don't carry the entire burden for what's happened - even therapeutic relationships are two-way streets.  it may be that the two of you simply are not a 'fit' anymore.  i've seen that happen with many relationships, including some of my own.  it's not any one person's fault that the relationship ends.  one may grow in a different direction than where the relationship was built originally.  (that's what happened with my best friend of 20 yrs.  i grew to a different place,)  that may be what happened here.   i don't know, but it's a possibility.

and, that doesn't take anything away from the importance of either the person or the relationship in your life.  i think there is an ebb and flow with these things as a natural dynamic.  sometimes we ebb and flow together, sometimes the tide turns and that's no longer true.   i hope you can be kind to yourself, and caring, especially through the grieving process.  i see a positive in your growth that is allowing you to even question what's going on.  big hug to you, radical, and much support as you take on such a heavy decision.

I will see her in about two weeks.

I feel embarrassed writing about this, but it is helping me see myself.  I'm over-focused on her feelings, and I haven't been able to assert my own needs, goals and and feelings for fear of losing the relationship, which means it is already lost.  It's gone too far without resolution.   Under the circumstances, the last session was abysmal because, from my perspective, she spent 90 percent of the time defending herself as a therapist, after failing to respond to my concerns in the previous sessions, and the last five minutes putting on a show of being supportive of the the fact that I was facing a crisis.  My biggest concerns weren't addressed at all and it was so nit-picky that I could respond by going along  to an extent and making the best I could of it, or risk a full-scale argument and potentially saying things I would have bitterly regretted, and then walking into the Christmas crisis. 

I don't believe it has always been this way, and I'm aware that my own issues have had a big impact on how things have turned out, but I have been unable to discuss these because I haven't found a way of talking about the issues.  I feel that something might be wrong.  This isn't black and white because this person has given me more support, kindness, and generosity than almost any other in my life.  Her insights and wisdom have been invaluable to me.  I didn't trust anyone, and didn't think I was capable of trust after abuse in a previous therapy relationship, yet she was trustworthy.  I believe she is a person of integrity.  I would still recommend her as a therapist for someone who has experienced multiple traumas and abuse within therapy.

I can't quite believe I'm in this situation.  It feels like regaining confidence and feeling that I'm not inferior, but a worthwhile human being, that I'm not to blame and that I didn't deserve abuse, and learning to trust myself has led her to dislike who I actually am, and to try and push me in a direction that I don't want to go in, and into being someone I'm not.  Which is gutting.  I have to respect and attend to what she is saying and not reject it out of hand, because her guidance has helped me more than I can say.  Yet I have to be authentic, and it seems that she likes me better when I'm less authentic, and maybe that's partly my fault because I wasn't previously aware of dissociating into fawning with her, and it's not apparent - it wasn't to me.

Also, after a year of walking away from almost all my main relationships and wider social support, it is hard to believe that I would be starting this year walking away from this relationship.  She has said that I have pushed people away, and I'm sure she feels I'm doing the same with her.  Most of the walking away was due to an abuser in the middle of the two most important groups in my life.  At the same time, the whole situation, and the culmination of our therapy together made me finally wake up to the toll that soul-sapping long-term relationships had taken on my life me, and to my unhealthy way of relating which meant I lacked boundaries and self esteem and was a door-mat.

I'm either crazy or I have to choose the path of being true to myself, but the price seems so high and there is no guarantee that my own path isn't leading me towards worse outcomes.  Yet I still choose it, it doesn't even feel like a choice, because nothing else would be honest.

in a way, I regret posting the Cat Stevens song because part of the point is I'm not an adolescent on the brink of adulthood.  For all my problems and faults, I'm a grown woman with a whole lot of life experience.

Radical,

You know, hard to eternalize, but you know you are not responsible for your therapist feelings.  I really believe that you have come to a point that you can practice self care by saying the relationship is no longer working for you.  This is a testament that you have improved with her help.

People also hit bumps in their personal lives and cannot be there in a way they once were.

I recently lost my dietitian that I have had for over a year.  She was the person that was my main support in the difficult process of recovery.  She was the start of being more healthy.  It is a loss, and I am sad about that.  Still, I am working on getting a new one and I look forward to fresh thinking and perhaps learning something that I didn't know.  I've been struggling with relapse so perhaps it is timely.  Perhaps I came to a point that the old approach wasn't as effective and I need a new one?

Thanks Dee.

I'm feeling so sad.  I've had a good day today, now I'm tired and. 

Last week I had the experience of crying with every part of myself.  It was indescribable and so healing.  There was almost no thought,  a few images of loss, the word 'alone' a couple of times, but mostly just hearing the sound of seagulls keening outside the window. I could even feel my toes letting go of pain.  It wasn't about any one thing, just all the sorrow I've held inside from years.  It wouldn't be such a big deal, I guess most people are able to cry and do so when they feel the need, but I can't ever remember crying like that.  It's been blocked.  I often get tears in my eyes, a couple of times a year a couple of sobs, but usually I just go blank within two minutes.

If I had 10 treatments with that result, I feel like I'd have released a huge block of sorrow.

I know this is relationship is ending.  it just hurts and I feel afraid.

Thanks for your support everyone, from the bottom of my heart.

With you all the way Radical. Its a very tough spot to be in, and we'll be here with you just as you are for us.

As someone who recently ended a friendship with a good person, i'm mentally and emotionally doing much better because of it. Having you as a support contributed to that strength.

I do think you are a strong person Radical because after conversations with you I feel safe. If I have been anxious you have said the right thing to instill calm. I cannot even explain.

This is a tangent, but that is what I think when reading your posts.